910
Hello All,
To reply to post no 7 by Sai bhakta
Sir,
I agree to the point that companies should be transparent.
Hence I did mention that I myself do not approve of what HR did. Because no matter what is the issue, it is to be communicated to the employee.
I just had said that asking for resignation is not unfair given certain circumstances. Above all since we do not complete scenario as to what happened, we cannot claim if it was fair or not. We have not heard the HR's story. It wouldn't be available unless they are transparent.
I didn't promote the practice of terminating or forceful resignation, I just said to be patient enough to listen to both side of stories before concluding on something or judging someone.
I hope I am not wrong there as even our legislation says so.
==============================================
Reply to Post 8.
Hello Mr. Umakanthan
To be very honest sir, I am not as much experienced to know if this kind of practice prevails more in a particular sector.
But as per my understanding,
Unions are mostly found in manufacturing or related firms.
Unions are seen with labors.
Labors used to be uneducated bunch of people and their employers used to take an advantage of that situation. Hence, a union was formed wherein the leader used to do all the surveys and analysis and used to guide the team and because of the unity of the team, seldom were the employers able to take advantage.
However, if the employer gives benefits to the leader, the labors could be taken advantage of.
When we talk of IT sector, it is a different sector. And though there are no unions formed, we still can approach the labor office and share the concern and file a complaint against the employer who are taking advantage of us.
And I believe we all should be rising our voice to the ill that happens. Unless we raise our voice, we cannot expect others to help us.
I do not know what answer was being expected but this is what I believe in.
===============================================
Reply to Post No 9 & 10
Mr. Sai Kumar
I do not know much about the IR and labor laws but when I shared a concern about my friend who is not being given her relieving letter and about her one-sided service bond, I was asked to advice her to meet the labor officer and take the matter there.
I may be wrong but that was the suggestion given.
I do not know of any company who practice this.
I have my friends working in IT sector and have confirmed with all they have not handed over their degrees etc in original to the employer. They were asked to get it to get the verification but had not kept with them even for a day.
I can understand that there are some SMB who follow such unethical practice may be cause they are unaware of the consequences or they think the people are unaware of their rights.
===========================================
And I really didn't understand why were these questions specifically asked to me?
If I may ask, may I know the reason for same?
From India, Mumbai
To reply to post no 7 by Sai bhakta
Sir,
I agree to the point that companies should be transparent.
Hence I did mention that I myself do not approve of what HR did. Because no matter what is the issue, it is to be communicated to the employee.
I just had said that asking for resignation is not unfair given certain circumstances. Above all since we do not complete scenario as to what happened, we cannot claim if it was fair or not. We have not heard the HR's story. It wouldn't be available unless they are transparent.
I didn't promote the practice of terminating or forceful resignation, I just said to be patient enough to listen to both side of stories before concluding on something or judging someone.
I hope I am not wrong there as even our legislation says so.
==============================================
Reply to Post 8.
Hello Mr. Umakanthan
To be very honest sir, I am not as much experienced to know if this kind of practice prevails more in a particular sector.
But as per my understanding,
Unions are mostly found in manufacturing or related firms.
Unions are seen with labors.
Labors used to be uneducated bunch of people and their employers used to take an advantage of that situation. Hence, a union was formed wherein the leader used to do all the surveys and analysis and used to guide the team and because of the unity of the team, seldom were the employers able to take advantage.
However, if the employer gives benefits to the leader, the labors could be taken advantage of.
When we talk of IT sector, it is a different sector. And though there are no unions formed, we still can approach the labor office and share the concern and file a complaint against the employer who are taking advantage of us.
And I believe we all should be rising our voice to the ill that happens. Unless we raise our voice, we cannot expect others to help us.
I do not know what answer was being expected but this is what I believe in.
===============================================
Reply to Post No 9 & 10
Mr. Sai Kumar
I do not know much about the IR and labor laws but when I shared a concern about my friend who is not being given her relieving letter and about her one-sided service bond, I was asked to advice her to meet the labor officer and take the matter there.
I may be wrong but that was the suggestion given.
I do not know of any company who practice this.
I have my friends working in IT sector and have confirmed with all they have not handed over their degrees etc in original to the employer. They were asked to get it to get the verification but had not kept with them even for a day.
I can understand that there are some SMB who follow such unethical practice may be cause they are unaware of the consequences or they think the people are unaware of their rights.
===========================================
And I really didn't understand why were these questions specifically asked to me?
If I may ask, may I know the reason for same?
From India, Mumbai
Dear
What ever has happened is very unfair and is condemned able but the Victim is a Female, am not sure how brave she is and how much needy she is. If job is not a major compulsion she can take a stronger stand and am sure she will win. Otherwise if she lacks guts and will to fight let her go to the office and submit/trade her resignation letter simultaneously by getting an experience letter,
In case if she wish to fight the injustice, she should send the Company a legal notice and also just recollect the events of last few days it may be a case of sexual harassment and in case if so instead of wasting time she should file an FIR and a letter to women commission. What ever she decide am sure she will win.
So instead o wasting her time just go for action.
With best wishes.
From India, Delhi
What ever has happened is very unfair and is condemned able but the Victim is a Female, am not sure how brave she is and how much needy she is. If job is not a major compulsion she can take a stronger stand and am sure she will win. Otherwise if she lacks guts and will to fight let her go to the office and submit/trade her resignation letter simultaneously by getting an experience letter,
In case if she wish to fight the injustice, she should send the Company a legal notice and also just recollect the events of last few days it may be a case of sexual harassment and in case if so instead of wasting time she should file an FIR and a letter to women commission. What ever she decide am sure she will win.
So instead o wasting her time just go for action.
With best wishes.
From India, Delhi
Dear Ankita,
Thank u for your nice replies at a stretch to all. Also u've wondered why these questions r directed particularly to u.Since my response is the starting point in this direction, I think I am obliged to answer first in this regard.I posed the questions to u because to me ur reply to Mr.Prabat appeared to be apt as it is out of lateral thinking and keeping both sides of the coin visible.That apart, though served as an official in State Labour Dept for about 32 years in different capacities such as Conciliation Officer,Quasi-Judicial Authority,Enforcement Officer of certain non-technical labour laws etc., just I remained to be an on-looker having access to only limited inputs required for the discharge of my duties.Therefore, people like yourself would be better-informed of the happenings in different industrial sectors as well as the reasons thereof.Corporate Social Responsibility, which is almost on the lips of every one, cannot thrive precluding employees who are also a part of the society.Particularly, in the matter of hiring n firing (let us forget if the incumbents are workmen as per the I.D Act or not) certain minimum level of ethics n transparency is expected of the employers irrespective of the type of industries run by them.Unfortunately, in our country, a wrong notion prevails in the minds of people that the purpose of education is earning a decent livelihood only.That is why there has been an unprecedented rush for professional degrees after globalization.Hence before terminating an employee on the ground of poor performance, I think various implications of such a drastic decision such as the cost of training, concerned employee n his/her family's future, moral impact on other employees, legal consequences etc., should be well considered dispassionately. Of course decisions are taken finally by top management only; never the less, what is equally true is that such decisions are influenced by the inputs given by the HR people, if I were right.
From India, Salem
Thank u for your nice replies at a stretch to all. Also u've wondered why these questions r directed particularly to u.Since my response is the starting point in this direction, I think I am obliged to answer first in this regard.I posed the questions to u because to me ur reply to Mr.Prabat appeared to be apt as it is out of lateral thinking and keeping both sides of the coin visible.That apart, though served as an official in State Labour Dept for about 32 years in different capacities such as Conciliation Officer,Quasi-Judicial Authority,Enforcement Officer of certain non-technical labour laws etc., just I remained to be an on-looker having access to only limited inputs required for the discharge of my duties.Therefore, people like yourself would be better-informed of the happenings in different industrial sectors as well as the reasons thereof.Corporate Social Responsibility, which is almost on the lips of every one, cannot thrive precluding employees who are also a part of the society.Particularly, in the matter of hiring n firing (let us forget if the incumbents are workmen as per the I.D Act or not) certain minimum level of ethics n transparency is expected of the employers irrespective of the type of industries run by them.Unfortunately, in our country, a wrong notion prevails in the minds of people that the purpose of education is earning a decent livelihood only.That is why there has been an unprecedented rush for professional degrees after globalization.Hence before terminating an employee on the ground of poor performance, I think various implications of such a drastic decision such as the cost of training, concerned employee n his/her family's future, moral impact on other employees, legal consequences etc., should be well considered dispassionately. Of course decisions are taken finally by top management only; never the less, what is equally true is that such decisions are influenced by the inputs given by the HR people, if I were right.
From India, Salem
Hello Ankita
Thanks for replying every one's response.
My advice to desist from going to labour authorities with a compalint after resigning and negotiating a hassle free exit is in response to SAIBHAKT's suggesstion but not in response to your's, as I honestly believed that such fight is quite inexpedient from the career point of view of the employee as the focus is likely to shift from shaping her career now to slurring an ex-employer and also the miniscule benefit it brings to her except giving the smug satisfaction of paying the ex-employer in the same coin.But this is not to say that an employee shall back away from any fight for justice always but such decisiions shall be taken on grounds of expediency like the substance of injustice, the degree of damage to the intersts of the employee and some times the degree of success of such fight, though it is not gauaranteed, not to speak of the finacial implications involved in such fight.In a nutshell, as a popular poverb goes, if you dig the whole mountain only to find a mouse, the exercise is not worth it and if you dig the whole hill to find few ounces of gold, it is worth it. That is what expediency is all about. As Tajsateesh said, it will be waste of precious time at the command of a budding HR professional who can put it to better use.
To your query as to why the specific query was posed to you, I have not tossed any query to you in this regard but only awaiting to hear your reply to the query asked by a senior member. Nevertheless, I would like to express my view on this question since you have posed it to me. When a senior member posed a query to a young budding professinal like you and wants to hear her on the issue, it will be a huge complement to her knowledge and shall be inspiring.
So far as my desire to hear your reply on the query is concerned, I have been going through your posts and to me, you seem to be an enthusiastic, aspiring budding woman HR professional, not seem to be stuck by the glass ceiling but willing to move forward in your career and trying to be in touch with contemporary HR isues and so I want to know how you respond to the query.
Trust I have clarified the position to your satisfaction.
Now, my views on the query posed by the learned member Mr.umakanthan are :
1) I agree with you as to why unionism is not gaining ground in IT sector. Apart from what you cited such as literacy etc as reasons, IT sector is not labour intensive like manufacturing sector and thus numbers are not in favour of starting a union.
2)This apart, employee turn over is so high, the stability and loyalty factors which are so key to starting and sustaining a union in an industry , are difficuly to find in IT sector.
3)The employees are mostly well educated and belong to white collar class and most importantly, are not plagued by insecurity of unemployment as the blue collared employees in manufacturing sector usually are and thus may not find any reason to lean much on a union to secure their interests.
Do you agree ?
B.Saikumar
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Thanks for replying every one's response.
My advice to desist from going to labour authorities with a compalint after resigning and negotiating a hassle free exit is in response to SAIBHAKT's suggesstion but not in response to your's, as I honestly believed that such fight is quite inexpedient from the career point of view of the employee as the focus is likely to shift from shaping her career now to slurring an ex-employer and also the miniscule benefit it brings to her except giving the smug satisfaction of paying the ex-employer in the same coin.But this is not to say that an employee shall back away from any fight for justice always but such decisiions shall be taken on grounds of expediency like the substance of injustice, the degree of damage to the intersts of the employee and some times the degree of success of such fight, though it is not gauaranteed, not to speak of the finacial implications involved in such fight.In a nutshell, as a popular poverb goes, if you dig the whole mountain only to find a mouse, the exercise is not worth it and if you dig the whole hill to find few ounces of gold, it is worth it. That is what expediency is all about. As Tajsateesh said, it will be waste of precious time at the command of a budding HR professional who can put it to better use.
To your query as to why the specific query was posed to you, I have not tossed any query to you in this regard but only awaiting to hear your reply to the query asked by a senior member. Nevertheless, I would like to express my view on this question since you have posed it to me. When a senior member posed a query to a young budding professinal like you and wants to hear her on the issue, it will be a huge complement to her knowledge and shall be inspiring.
So far as my desire to hear your reply on the query is concerned, I have been going through your posts and to me, you seem to be an enthusiastic, aspiring budding woman HR professional, not seem to be stuck by the glass ceiling but willing to move forward in your career and trying to be in touch with contemporary HR isues and so I want to know how you respond to the query.
Trust I have clarified the position to your satisfaction.
Now, my views on the query posed by the learned member Mr.umakanthan are :
1) I agree with you as to why unionism is not gaining ground in IT sector. Apart from what you cited such as literacy etc as reasons, IT sector is not labour intensive like manufacturing sector and thus numbers are not in favour of starting a union.
2)This apart, employee turn over is so high, the stability and loyalty factors which are so key to starting and sustaining a union in an industry , are difficuly to find in IT sector.
3)The employees are mostly well educated and belong to white collar class and most importantly, are not plagued by insecurity of unemployment as the blue collared employees in manufacturing sector usually are and thus may not find any reason to lean much on a union to secure their interests.
Do you agree ?
B.Saikumar
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Thank you Sir,
From the posts, I think it is very obvious that we are concluding in the right direction, but I think it is unfair to conclude not knowing the other side of the story.
We can give the tips to the victim and suggest the way out, but in order to say what was done is fair or not is a big thing and needs both side of story.'
Thank you to actually understand the reason for it,
I think it is human nature to believe what is being shared first and get carried away. It is very natural. And hence we are human and not robots. :-)
100% agree on this.
My dad always tells me - Do not just punish the person and say he did wrong.
Instead tell precisely what wrong s/he did, what was expected, so what is the expected-actual performance gap? Tell them how can they improve on it.
Punishing won't ensure that they'd perform better next time, helping them to know what's expected out of them would.
Hence it is very essential for HR and/or supervisors to tell to the employee the reason for -
Termination or Low Appraisal or Suggested Training etc.
Not only would it make the communication clear and help the process look transparent, but it would also ensure that the trust is developed amongst the employees....
I would call it rat race.
People want to be doctors to earn respect and earn more money.
People take up engineering so that better packages could be negotiated.
People want to do MBA so that they can be at influential position with better pay scale.
I find so many candidates who are academically so well that you'd expect them to be clear of their basics but it is equally sad to see when they cannot answer the basic questions or can be manipulated or be doubted easily.
This clearly shows that most of us study to clear our exams and get our degrees.
As soon as the exam is over, our memory is cleared of anything and everything we once mugged up....
Sad state...
Bang on!!!
I would suggest that just as we do a cost analysis for recruitment, we should do same/similar analysis for termination as well.
We try to retain a talent who is resigning us, because -
(1) The person is extremely well contributing or atleast contributing on average scale.
(2) We have given training and would want to reap benefits for longer time to get better ROI
(3) We have mutually adopted to each other culturally (employee and the firm)
and based on the reasons and other factors we decide the strategies to retain.
However we just terminate (in IT terms - Sack) the employee without even a second thought.
We should always consider -
(1) His average performance
(2) Have a one-to-one talk to understand the difficulties he is facing
(3) Try to mutually come to a conclusive list which can be worked on to improve performance.
(4) Check if training, motivation, or few days' off can help the person to relax, get better skills and come back afresh and with more confidence.
And even after doing all, still if a company feels that the person is to be terminated,
Atleast be humane to communicate the reason and give considerable time frame or compensation to the person as per the separation policies.
I cannot always blame people to initiate the hate-talks against HR because there are few HRs who do not possess the human factor which is much needed.
From India, Mumbai
From the posts, I think it is very obvious that we are concluding in the right direction, but I think it is unfair to conclude not knowing the other side of the story.
We can give the tips to the victim and suggest the way out, but in order to say what was done is fair or not is a big thing and needs both side of story.'
Thank you to actually understand the reason for it,
I think it is human nature to believe what is being shared first and get carried away. It is very natural. And hence we are human and not robots. :-)
100% agree on this.
My dad always tells me - Do not just punish the person and say he did wrong.
Instead tell precisely what wrong s/he did, what was expected, so what is the expected-actual performance gap? Tell them how can they improve on it.
Punishing won't ensure that they'd perform better next time, helping them to know what's expected out of them would.
Hence it is very essential for HR and/or supervisors to tell to the employee the reason for -
Termination or Low Appraisal or Suggested Training etc.
Not only would it make the communication clear and help the process look transparent, but it would also ensure that the trust is developed amongst the employees....
I would call it rat race.
People want to be doctors to earn respect and earn more money.
People take up engineering so that better packages could be negotiated.
People want to do MBA so that they can be at influential position with better pay scale.
I find so many candidates who are academically so well that you'd expect them to be clear of their basics but it is equally sad to see when they cannot answer the basic questions or can be manipulated or be doubted easily.
This clearly shows that most of us study to clear our exams and get our degrees.
As soon as the exam is over, our memory is cleared of anything and everything we once mugged up....
Sad state...
Bang on!!!
I would suggest that just as we do a cost analysis for recruitment, we should do same/similar analysis for termination as well.
We try to retain a talent who is resigning us, because -
(1) The person is extremely well contributing or atleast contributing on average scale.
(2) We have given training and would want to reap benefits for longer time to get better ROI
(3) We have mutually adopted to each other culturally (employee and the firm)
and based on the reasons and other factors we decide the strategies to retain.
However we just terminate (in IT terms - Sack) the employee without even a second thought.
We should always consider -
(1) His average performance
(2) Have a one-to-one talk to understand the difficulties he is facing
(3) Try to mutually come to a conclusive list which can be worked on to improve performance.
(4) Check if training, motivation, or few days' off can help the person to relax, get better skills and come back afresh and with more confidence.
And even after doing all, still if a company feels that the person is to be terminated,
Atleast be humane to communicate the reason and give considerable time frame or compensation to the person as per the separation policies.
I cannot always blame people to initiate the hate-talks against HR because there are few HRs who do not possess the human factor which is much needed.
From India, Mumbai
Trust me Sir, I was not offended by asking that question to me, but actually wondered why.
More so because, I am just a new person and do not have much experience in the industry.
I do try and answer queries as per my knowledge and experience but have my own limitations.
When the question was directed to me, I thought I am to answer it. It really made me feel "How would I answer the query because I do not think I have sufficient knowledge" and hence just wished to know why was I asked.
Though it was cleared by both you and Umakanthan sir that it was just to know the view points, I was relaxed.
It really makes you feel nervous when an experienced person asks you something. Even in my school days, I used to get nervous when I was asked questions, though I might know the answer...
Apology if my words were rude anywhere. Didn't intent to.
I am highly obliged sir. That is indeed a great compliment. I just come to gain knowledge andd try to help out or suggest if something I can do.
Thank you sir for sharing the views, and yes I do agree.
Though I mentioned about unionization in mostly manufacturing firm and for labours, the most important point I missed out (when specified to IT sector) was the high attrition rate.
If we compare the attrition rates, sector wise, IT has the highest rate.
And even if we look at the healthy attrition rate, (based on the information shared with me during internship) IT has higher acceptable attrition rate than others.
IT is very volatile sector. People do not even stick around for around 2 years. Technology changes, requirement and expectation changes considerably faster in this sector than any other.
This makes it little difficult to even think about getting a union for IT sector.
Thanks a lot for the insight sir.
From India, Mumbai
More so because, I am just a new person and do not have much experience in the industry.
I do try and answer queries as per my knowledge and experience but have my own limitations.
When the question was directed to me, I thought I am to answer it. It really made me feel "How would I answer the query because I do not think I have sufficient knowledge" and hence just wished to know why was I asked.
Though it was cleared by both you and Umakanthan sir that it was just to know the view points, I was relaxed.
It really makes you feel nervous when an experienced person asks you something. Even in my school days, I used to get nervous when I was asked questions, though I might know the answer...
Apology if my words were rude anywhere. Didn't intent to.
I am highly obliged sir. That is indeed a great compliment. I just come to gain knowledge andd try to help out or suggest if something I can do.
Thank you sir for sharing the views, and yes I do agree.
Though I mentioned about unionization in mostly manufacturing firm and for labours, the most important point I missed out (when specified to IT sector) was the high attrition rate.
If we compare the attrition rates, sector wise, IT has the highest rate.
And even if we look at the healthy attrition rate, (based on the information shared with me during internship) IT has higher acceptable attrition rate than others.
IT is very volatile sector. People do not even stick around for around 2 years. Technology changes, requirement and expectation changes considerably faster in this sector than any other.
This makes it little difficult to even think about getting a union for IT sector.
Thanks a lot for the insight sir.
From India, Mumbai
In such circumstances, it is better to approach Inspector of factories and write a letter to District collector, copy should be sent to the employer.The district collector / Inspector of factories will ask the Employer about the reasons for not allowing the employees to duties. The employer has to give reasons to them, if the problem is not solved, it is better to approach legally.
L S RAO
From India, Vijayawada
L S RAO
From India, Vijayawada
Dear Seniors,
Thanks for your suggestions & guidance.
I would like to tell you that, in her last appraisal she got 30% hike. From past 2.5 years she was the only HR in the company. She recruited her HR Manager last year as company is growing and she also need guidance from someone. But HR manger salary was less than her's.
I informed you this because she is not a low performer. The politics is played against her and the work she was doing was presented by her Manager by his name. And tried to prove that she is not working at all. When my friend tried to clear the things in front of management, they were not ready to listen.
Even i told her to resign and look for some better opportunity as she is the only working member in her family.
Regards,
Priyanka
From India, Delhi
Thanks for your suggestions & guidance.
I would like to tell you that, in her last appraisal she got 30% hike. From past 2.5 years she was the only HR in the company. She recruited her HR Manager last year as company is growing and she also need guidance from someone. But HR manger salary was less than her's.
I informed you this because she is not a low performer. The politics is played against her and the work she was doing was presented by her Manager by his name. And tried to prove that she is not working at all. When my friend tried to clear the things in front of management, they were not ready to listen.
Even i told her to resign and look for some better opportunity as she is the only working member in her family.
Regards,
Priyanka
From India, Delhi
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