I want to understand what the salary entitlement is for a person who joins a company and leaves within 10 days. Is the company liable to pay any salary to such an individual? He has not only wasted the time of recruitment but also training.
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(0)
Amend(0)
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
"He has not only wasted the time of recruitment but also that of the training - so what, it is the botheration of the employer. If training is an inseparable part of the job, i.e., on-the-job training as per the appointment orders, the individual, though leaving after a short duration, is entitled to a salary."
From India, Salem
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)
6108From India, Salem
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)
You have a standard notice period. If the person has left without completing the notice period, then the notice pay (gross not basic) can be deducted from the pay of the first 10 days.
If you have no notice pay, then you are supposed to pay the employee his salary. However, if the person was in training during this time and has not worked, then you may have some defense.
In reality, you can tell him to take a hike and get lost. The chances of legal action on this matter are very slim.
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)
If you have no notice pay, then you are supposed to pay the employee his salary. However, if the person was in training during this time and has not worked, then you may have some defense.
In reality, you can tell him to take a hike and get lost. The chances of legal action on this matter are very slim.
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)
Mr. Aman,
The recruitment process, salary payment for the employee's working period, and disciplinary actions or recovery of the notice period pay are three distinct processes that should not be confused. Regardless of the time wasted by the company in the recruitment/training process, the employee is entitled to receive their salary, even if they worked for just one day, let alone 10 days. No law permits a company to withhold an employee's salary, regardless of the duration of their employment.
On the other hand, the management has the option to take two actions against the employee: (1) initiate disciplinary action as per the rules governing employee conduct and discipline for unauthorized absence or desertion from duty if the employee left without proper resignation approval or formal relief from their job, and (2) pursue recovery of the notice period pay from the employee, with adjustments made for any dues recoverable from the employee.
Therefore, all actions should be formal and documented within the organization. Notice period pay serves as compensation for the recruitment costs or the time spent by the company on recruitment/training. If the organization operates without a set of rules and follows a trial-and-error approach, the organization alone can be held responsible for not adhering to the law.
By the way, what kind of training could be completed within 10 days? The employee must have contributed towards the company's work during that time.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(3)Amend(0)
The recruitment process, salary payment for the employee's working period, and disciplinary actions or recovery of the notice period pay are three distinct processes that should not be confused. Regardless of the time wasted by the company in the recruitment/training process, the employee is entitled to receive their salary, even if they worked for just one day, let alone 10 days. No law permits a company to withhold an employee's salary, regardless of the duration of their employment.
On the other hand, the management has the option to take two actions against the employee: (1) initiate disciplinary action as per the rules governing employee conduct and discipline for unauthorized absence or desertion from duty if the employee left without proper resignation approval or formal relief from their job, and (2) pursue recovery of the notice period pay from the employee, with adjustments made for any dues recoverable from the employee.
Therefore, all actions should be formal and documented within the organization. Notice period pay serves as compensation for the recruitment costs or the time spent by the company on recruitment/training. If the organization operates without a set of rules and follows a trial-and-error approach, the organization alone can be held responsible for not adhering to the law.
By the way, what kind of training could be completed within 10 days? The employee must have contributed towards the company's work during that time.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(3)Amend(0)
Simply put, the person is entitled to 10 days of pay. Pay cannot be legally denied if he claims it. It is another thing that the person may not claim it if he has to fight a legal battle for the 10 days of pay.
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear all, How I wish our experts would raise questions to get a clear picture of the scenario and the motive behind the blogger asking a question. I very much appreciate what Nathrao has done at https://www.citehr.com/539849-un-paid-salary.html. Amankbansal has not told us whether it is a hypothetical question (maybe a question at an interview) for which he is seeking an answer or whether he works in the HR department and is seeking a solution to a problem faced. Many of the responses are conditional based on assumptions. Instead of assuming the scenario, we should ask questions to help the blogger clearly explain the situation, to enable us to provide precise suggestions. I hope experts take these comments in the right spirit and will not get offended. I am sorry if I have ruffled any feathers, as the saying goes.
From United Kingdom
Acknowledge(2)
Amend(0)
From United Kingdom
Acknowledge(2)Amend(0)
Dear Members, Thank you for responding to the question! I would like to assure you all that this is not a hypothetical question and not fishing in any manner. By the way, this was my first experience with citeHR, where someone suggested that this is a forum wherein you can get opinion leaders to give you the right advice for making policies. I didn't actually think that it is not a 'forum' by the spirit of it. 'Internet Forum' usually means you're free to ask questions, and people choose to respond or not—generally different from taking a service from a company.
I head a startup organization as a CEO, so we came across such a situation lately. Though we have a notice period of 45 days for leaving the employment, we still want to be on the right side of the law. I hope the forum members appreciate that. It should not only lead to a legal claim, etc.
Furthermore, one member asked, "By the way, what type of training can be possible within 10 days if he must have rendered his service in doing work for the company?" I am unsure what work/service can be expected to be rendered in 10 days.
Question 1:
Is there a possibility of a 'free-look' agreement for the first 10 days where both parties are on the same footing; of course, the employee will have a choice not to enter such an agreement? I am asking all you experts what the right method is to make sure that no party ends up losing. It should be a win-win for both parties.
I would appreciate readers who think this question is not right or is fishing to NOT RESPOND. It only discourages new users like us.
Regards, Aman
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I head a startup organization as a CEO, so we came across such a situation lately. Though we have a notice period of 45 days for leaving the employment, we still want to be on the right side of the law. I hope the forum members appreciate that. It should not only lead to a legal claim, etc.
Furthermore, one member asked, "By the way, what type of training can be possible within 10 days if he must have rendered his service in doing work for the company?" I am unsure what work/service can be expected to be rendered in 10 days.
Question 1:
Is there a possibility of a 'free-look' agreement for the first 10 days where both parties are on the same footing; of course, the employee will have a choice not to enter such an agreement? I am asking all you experts what the right method is to make sure that no party ends up losing. It should be a win-win for both parties.
I would appreciate readers who think this question is not right or is fishing to NOT RESPOND. It only discourages new users like us.
Regards, Aman
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I think you could have saved all of us the trouble by posting the type of postings/responses had you given these details a bit earlier. Frankly, I [or maybe 'we'] should have checked out your membership date :-)
Vis-a-vis your line ''Internet Forum'' usually meant you're free to ask questions and people choose to respond or not, that's what makes CiteHR different. It's not just a platform to get solutions for real-time/life problems but ALSO a learning mechanism for those who wish to learn... the idea being to enable others to avoid making the same mistake and enable them to learn from others' mistakes.
Coming to the issue at hand, the possibility of such an employee going 'legal' for 10 days' salary is very remote... UNLESS he/she has a lot of money to blow OR his parent is a litigant advocate [if you know what I mean]. So let your decision NOT be guided by THIS factor.
And as the CEO, the options available to you would be many... unlike for a typical HR person.
Possibility of a 'Free-Look' Agreement for the First 10 Days
I am with you that 10 days is too short a time for anyone to be productive... in training or at work. But this very fact would make your query redundant. How can you make a judgment call in 10 days as far as 'both parties are on the same footing' aspect is concerned? At most, you can see if this guy is serious or is still looking for other jobs... depending on his seriousness in the job/training. I guess, that's just about it. UNLESS you meant anything else by this statement?
Generally speaking, that's what the Probation Period is supposed to be achieving.
There's another aspect to this. I suggest you DON'T get into the trap of laying down systems/procedures/policies based on one-off situations. That will constrict your options as your company grows. To give you a comparison, the innumerable laws in this country, many of which are redundant now and are being weeded out.
Have you faced this situation multiple times? If yes, then MAYBE it's time you also have a relook at your hiring methods. Such guys ought NOT to have been hired in the first place... the focus on WHY the candidate is preferring your company during the interview becomes important. If it's just another job or just for a salary hike, then you better be careful with such guys... interviewing more candidates may be worth it rather than deciding in a hurry.
If you wish to know more about identifying such guys during the interview process, please PM me... I shall be glad to discuss to evolve a solution to preempt such situations.
Coming to this specific employee... has he asked for his salary? Or is it YOUR initiative?
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
Acknowledge(2)
Amend(0)
Vis-a-vis your line ''Internet Forum'' usually meant you're free to ask questions and people choose to respond or not, that's what makes CiteHR different. It's not just a platform to get solutions for real-time/life problems but ALSO a learning mechanism for those who wish to learn... the idea being to enable others to avoid making the same mistake and enable them to learn from others' mistakes.
Coming to the issue at hand, the possibility of such an employee going 'legal' for 10 days' salary is very remote... UNLESS he/she has a lot of money to blow OR his parent is a litigant advocate [if you know what I mean]. So let your decision NOT be guided by THIS factor.
And as the CEO, the options available to you would be many... unlike for a typical HR person.
Possibility of a 'Free-Look' Agreement for the First 10 Days
I am with you that 10 days is too short a time for anyone to be productive... in training or at work. But this very fact would make your query redundant. How can you make a judgment call in 10 days as far as 'both parties are on the same footing' aspect is concerned? At most, you can see if this guy is serious or is still looking for other jobs... depending on his seriousness in the job/training. I guess, that's just about it. UNLESS you meant anything else by this statement?
Generally speaking, that's what the Probation Period is supposed to be achieving.
There's another aspect to this. I suggest you DON'T get into the trap of laying down systems/procedures/policies based on one-off situations. That will constrict your options as your company grows. To give you a comparison, the innumerable laws in this country, many of which are redundant now and are being weeded out.
Have you faced this situation multiple times? If yes, then MAYBE it's time you also have a relook at your hiring methods. Such guys ought NOT to have been hired in the first place... the focus on WHY the candidate is preferring your company during the interview becomes important. If it's just another job or just for a salary hike, then you better be careful with such guys... interviewing more candidates may be worth it rather than deciding in a hurry.
If you wish to know more about identifying such guys during the interview process, please PM me... I shall be glad to discuss to evolve a solution to preempt such situations.
Coming to this specific employee... has he asked for his salary? Or is it YOUR initiative?
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
Acknowledge(2)Amend(0)
Dear Aman, Thank you very much for your kind words about this forum. I wholeheartedly agree with T.S. that this forum is an enlightening mechanism for all its members due to the brainstorming effect created by members' responses to posed questions. Some of our senior members occasionally pose counter-questions with the sincere intention of guiding questioners rather than providing direct answers, aiming to avoid spoon-feeding and minimize any potential offense.
Now, addressing your question. It can be quite concerning when a new employee leaves the job shortly after joining without a valid reason. This not only disrupts the recruitment process but also raises doubts about the effectiveness of any orientation processes, such as training, in place. As rightly pointed out by my esteemed colleague Dhingra, recruitment, appointment, and termination of employment are distinct yet interconnected processes, each governed by specific terms and conditions, including provisions for breach. Regardless of the duration of the new employee's tenure or the extent of training received, as an employer, it is crucial to acknowledge their service and ensure proper compensation, such as adjusting the salary for notice pay or training expenses, as suggested by Saswata. However, withholding salary for the period worked by the employee, irrespective of their sudden departure, would not be fair practice.
Regarding the Proposed "Free-Look" Agreement
It is essential to determine the minimum duration required to make it effective. How can this agreement discourage employees from breaching the terms prematurely? As the CEO, it is vital to investigate whether this situation is an isolated incident caused by individual indecision or if there are underlying issues within the orientation program.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Best regards
From India, Salem
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)
Now, addressing your question. It can be quite concerning when a new employee leaves the job shortly after joining without a valid reason. This not only disrupts the recruitment process but also raises doubts about the effectiveness of any orientation processes, such as training, in place. As rightly pointed out by my esteemed colleague Dhingra, recruitment, appointment, and termination of employment are distinct yet interconnected processes, each governed by specific terms and conditions, including provisions for breach. Regardless of the duration of the new employee's tenure or the extent of training received, as an employer, it is crucial to acknowledge their service and ensure proper compensation, such as adjusting the salary for notice pay or training expenses, as suggested by Saswata. However, withholding salary for the period worked by the employee, irrespective of their sudden departure, would not be fair practice.
Regarding the Proposed "Free-Look" Agreement
It is essential to determine the minimum duration required to make it effective. How can this agreement discourage employees from breaching the terms prematurely? As the CEO, it is vital to investigate whether this situation is an isolated incident caused by individual indecision or if there are underlying issues within the orientation program.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Best regards
From India, Salem
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)
Dear Aman K Bansal,
If you are the CEO of your company, your written criticism of the forum and its members suggests that you consider yourself as the CEO of the forum members as well. Your directive that "readers who think this question is not right or is fishing - DO NOT RESPOND" implies that you see yourself as the CEO of all forum members. Now, the following questions arise from your latest post:
1. Did you mention in your initial query whether you were asking as a student, an employee, an executive, or as the CEO of your own company?
2. Did you describe in your initial query what exactly your problem was? Frankly, your question seemed like a test question, similar to one an examiner might pose to students, rather than fishing.
3. Without a proper description and background of the problem, did you expect responding members to waste their time presuming the background of the employee leaving your company, the cost of his training, his output against your expectations, and whether you asked the question as a CEO of a startup? On what grounds would members assume your problem was not hypothetical? If your time is precious, theirs is even more so, as they could solve 3-4 more problems for other needy individuals.
4. Is it not mean and disgraceful for a CEO to hold the salary of merely 10 days of service in lieu of time wasted in recruitment? Frankly, I doubt you are really a CEO. Had this question been asked by an HR executive, it would have been justified.
5. Did you go through the recruitment process just to favor that employee with a livelihood, and not to fulfill your firm's needs?
6. Did you mention what type of training you could impart within the first 10 days of probation? Even now, you are unclear whether any training was imparted, as you have not clarified this point, preferring instead to criticize why you were asked such a question.
7. If you are "unsure what work/service can be expected in 10 days," on what basis did you state, "he has not wasted time of recruitment but also training?" On what grounds is your query relevant based on such a vague plea?
8. Are you sure the employee just sat idle and did not provide any output during those 10 days?
9. If an employee leaves within 10 days, do you think the work culture and environment are conducive enough to retain employees?
10. Even if your attitude towards forum members is rude when they spent time solving your academic problem for free, is there any reason not to assume that a salaried employee would have been treated poorly, compelling him to leave within 10 days?
11. As a CEO, was there any compulsion to seek only free service for your commercial query, rather than hiring a legal consultant?
12. If I tried to solve your problem to the best of my ability, which you appreciated, what irked you when I asked, "by the way, what type of training can be possible within 10 days?" Don't you think the question might have supplemented my reply if your reason was justified? But you preferred to demonstrate anger, as if I were your paid servant, obliged not to question you.
Can you clarify the rationale of your grumble in response to the replies to your academic query? If you expect them to solve your problem, they have the right to question your unethical, unreasonable, or vague questions. If you feel restrained in replying, better hire a legal expert to answer your questions as per your taste.
MY FREE ADVICE TO YOU: FIRST MEND YOUR ATTITUDE AND BEHAVIOR, SHUN YOUR EGO, AND ONLY THEN DESERVE SERVICE FROM EVEN YOUR PAID EMPLOYEES IF YOU WANT PRODUCTIVITY AND PROGRESS FOR YOUR COMPANY. Frequent employee departures cause financial loss and harm to a company's reputation. For that, you can only blame yourself.
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(2)Amend(0)
If you are the CEO of your company, your written criticism of the forum and its members suggests that you consider yourself as the CEO of the forum members as well. Your directive that "readers who think this question is not right or is fishing - DO NOT RESPOND" implies that you see yourself as the CEO of all forum members. Now, the following questions arise from your latest post:
1. Did you mention in your initial query whether you were asking as a student, an employee, an executive, or as the CEO of your own company?
2. Did you describe in your initial query what exactly your problem was? Frankly, your question seemed like a test question, similar to one an examiner might pose to students, rather than fishing.
3. Without a proper description and background of the problem, did you expect responding members to waste their time presuming the background of the employee leaving your company, the cost of his training, his output against your expectations, and whether you asked the question as a CEO of a startup? On what grounds would members assume your problem was not hypothetical? If your time is precious, theirs is even more so, as they could solve 3-4 more problems for other needy individuals.
4. Is it not mean and disgraceful for a CEO to hold the salary of merely 10 days of service in lieu of time wasted in recruitment? Frankly, I doubt you are really a CEO. Had this question been asked by an HR executive, it would have been justified.
5. Did you go through the recruitment process just to favor that employee with a livelihood, and not to fulfill your firm's needs?
6. Did you mention what type of training you could impart within the first 10 days of probation? Even now, you are unclear whether any training was imparted, as you have not clarified this point, preferring instead to criticize why you were asked such a question.
7. If you are "unsure what work/service can be expected in 10 days," on what basis did you state, "he has not wasted time of recruitment but also training?" On what grounds is your query relevant based on such a vague plea?
8. Are you sure the employee just sat idle and did not provide any output during those 10 days?
9. If an employee leaves within 10 days, do you think the work culture and environment are conducive enough to retain employees?
10. Even if your attitude towards forum members is rude when they spent time solving your academic problem for free, is there any reason not to assume that a salaried employee would have been treated poorly, compelling him to leave within 10 days?
11. As a CEO, was there any compulsion to seek only free service for your commercial query, rather than hiring a legal consultant?
12. If I tried to solve your problem to the best of my ability, which you appreciated, what irked you when I asked, "by the way, what type of training can be possible within 10 days?" Don't you think the question might have supplemented my reply if your reason was justified? But you preferred to demonstrate anger, as if I were your paid servant, obliged not to question you.
Can you clarify the rationale of your grumble in response to the replies to your academic query? If you expect them to solve your problem, they have the right to question your unethical, unreasonable, or vague questions. If you feel restrained in replying, better hire a legal expert to answer your questions as per your taste.
MY FREE ADVICE TO YOU: FIRST MEND YOUR ATTITUDE AND BEHAVIOR, SHUN YOUR EGO, AND ONLY THEN DESERVE SERVICE FROM EVEN YOUR PAID EMPLOYEES IF YOU WANT PRODUCTIVITY AND PROGRESS FOR YOUR COMPANY. Frequent employee departures cause financial loss and harm to a company's reputation. For that, you can only blame yourself.
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(2)Amend(0)
Dear Nathrao, Thanks for appreciating my reply to the querist. About your observation on the direction of the querist, "I will appreciate that readers who think this question is not right or is fishing - DO NOT RESPOND. It only discourages new users like us," the language of the querist matters much. All the contents of his new post indicate as if he was issuing commands and directions to his employees, not to the members from whom he was seeking help to solve his problem.
If you see my reply to his query, it was given thinking the querist to be an HR executive and would have been in confusion about what to do or what not, just to make him aware of what is what with respect to the legal implications and what should not be there to avoid any legal complications for him. But his reasoning for training did not sound well. You can see that he even appreciated my reply. However, if in addition, I asked what type of training would have been imparted within 10 days of joining of the employee, what was wrong? Instead of clarifying the issue, he seemed to have gotten annoyed and retorted like a boss of all the community members. His reply clearly indicated his annoyance as to why he was asked a question. Rather than being thankful for the responses of the members, he virtually criticized the entire forum and its community members.
He has not taken any paid consultation from any of us. But if he has come to an open forum for a solution, anyone can respond or ask a question before replying if the query is hazy or of an academic nature. If a member asks a question for clarification, that means he is ready to solve the problem of the querist. So, in what sense can he issue directions to the community members from whom he desired service free of cost? It is not a matter of issuing directions, but it is well understood that the members should not respond if they think the question is not right or phishing. Not everyone tried to answer such type of questions. So, you can well appreciate where was the need to issue such a nasty direction, that too by the querist himself?
Regards
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)
If you see my reply to his query, it was given thinking the querist to be an HR executive and would have been in confusion about what to do or what not, just to make him aware of what is what with respect to the legal implications and what should not be there to avoid any legal complications for him. But his reasoning for training did not sound well. You can see that he even appreciated my reply. However, if in addition, I asked what type of training would have been imparted within 10 days of joining of the employee, what was wrong? Instead of clarifying the issue, he seemed to have gotten annoyed and retorted like a boss of all the community members. His reply clearly indicated his annoyance as to why he was asked a question. Rather than being thankful for the responses of the members, he virtually criticized the entire forum and its community members.
He has not taken any paid consultation from any of us. But if he has come to an open forum for a solution, anyone can respond or ask a question before replying if the query is hazy or of an academic nature. If a member asks a question for clarification, that means he is ready to solve the problem of the querist. So, in what sense can he issue directions to the community members from whom he desired service free of cost? It is not a matter of issuing directions, but it is well understood that the members should not respond if they think the question is not right or phishing. Not everyone tried to answer such type of questions. So, you can well appreciate where was the need to issue such a nasty direction, that too by the querist himself?
Regards
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(1)Amend(0)CiteHR is an AI-augmented HR knowledge and collaboration platform, enabling HR professionals to solve real-world challenges, validate decisions, and stay ahead through collective intelligence and machine-enhanced guidance. Join Our Platform.
Circular Dated 28-10-2016 for settlement of PF Death Case Claims within 7 days.pdf
SAMPLE Employee Attrition Calculation sheet for FY 09-10 .xls