Dinesh Divekar
Business Mentor, Consultant And Trainer
Manojkamble
Sr. Hr Executive
Vrgajjar
Manager Human Resource
KK!HR
Management Consultancy
Aks17
Compliance Manager
Yrshirke
Hr / Ir
Hr@balupunkt.in
Hr Manager
Nami
Pune
Adeepthi
Warangal Hr Executive
+2 Others

#Anonymous

Dear Team,
In my organization we have two office timings one is 9 am to 5pm & other is 9:45am to 6pm.
Our Marketing Manager timings are 9am to 5pm and she comes late i.e. 10am without informing to HR / Management
When i discussed this with my Management he stated that he is not concern about timings he is concern whether work is done or not by employees.
I had warned marketing manager multiple times but she said that according to offer letter she is only suppose to report to Management & not HR. So i stopped warning her.
What should i do in this case, Kindly advise at earliest.
Regards
Divya Shah
HR Manager
20th December 2017 From India, Pune
Dear Divya,
I find contradiction in your post. You have written that "When i discussed this with my Management he stated that he is not concern about timings he is concern whether work is done or not by employees."
Once management says that they are not concerned about the punctuality by one of the managers, then what was the need to warn Marketing Manager? if you are HR Manager then by now you must have realised that any kind of warnings are to be issued through the top management. Why you tried shooting while keeping gun on your shoulder? Smart HRs always shoot by keeping gun on the seniors shoulder!
Discuss the issue once for all the with the management. Explain to them that giving exemption to individual smacks of favouritism. Other employees may get disgruntled because of the partial and uneven treatment. The exemptions of this kind degrade the organisation's culture as a whole. If the management listens your plea then well and good otherwise drop the matter there itself and move on!
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
20th December 2017 From India, Bangalore
Dear Divya,
Many times people working in marketing or generating business enjoy special privileges in the company. So, as if your management is OK or apparently happy with the performance of the marketing manager then you may avoid getting into this matter.
20th December 2017
Hi Divya
Punctuality and attendance is fast loosing it's importance in modern business which want to be employee friendly and flexi timings are becoming norm. The modern business is concerned with only results and the quantum of work-hours i.e 8 hours which means if you come late, you go late but not that the employee shall come at the commencing time.However there is an exception to this relaxation.In customer driven offices like bank branches, sales out-lets/shops or insurance offices, the staff need to be on time but administrative offices are allowing flexi timings.
You have however drawn the incidence of her late coming to the notice of the management and they have no issue with it so far as she delivers the results. So close the matter and do not stretch it further as it may boomrang on you.But to keep yourself safe, bring such incidents or any behvaioural aberrations on the part of the staff to the notice of the management to get a sense of their response to decide the course of action to be taken by you to deal with them.
B.Saikumar
HR & Labour Relations Advisor
Navi Mumbai
20th December 2017 From India, Mumbai
This kind of laisez free atmosphere will make other employees follow suit.
You have done your role by informing management.
Whom did you inform in the management?
Problem is:To some, being late may seem like a minor issue to overlook. To others it is what determines a good business outcome versus a great business outcome.
Here by the manager's inconsistent and confusing conduct, that lateness and repeated late-coming were not serious offences and is openly overlooked
The Manager here has abdicated its duty to take appropriate corrective steps in respect of the employee's late-coming problem
You could probably document the chronic late coming and leave it at that.
20th December 2017 From India, Pune
Thank you Sir for your revert, My Management has kept two timings for flexibility of employees. but this is taken as disadvantage by Marketing Manager, She is very egoistic & argue a lot.
By her this behave management stated that he is not concern about her late coming to office. & I should not argue or spoil environment, this made me upset that i tried to maintain discipline in office & implemented rules & regulations in organization but he got negativity about me that i am strict on rules.
What should i do should i leave this topic to discuss with him or should i just sit back & observe things ?
20th December 2017 From India, Pune
You sit back and watch what happens in this particular case.
Whether the malaise spreads to other marketing employees.
Remember all of us work within our roles and powers.
You have informed the departmental manager concerned about late arrival on regular basis and they are cool about it.
Document it and stop raising this issue again.
20th December 2017 From India, Pune
Pl follow the words of Saikumar Sir. I think the timing is not right to rake up the issue.
20th December 2017 From India, Mumbai
OK, Thank you very much for your support.
20th December 2017 From India, Pune
Dear Manoj Kamble,
You have written that "Many times people working in marketing or generating business enjoy special privileges in the company. So, as if your management is OK or apparently happy with the performance of the marketing manager then you may avoid getting into this matter."
Yes, management may would like to run the company the way they wanted. Average employee which includes HR also, cannot question wisdom of the top authorities, nevertheless, what matters is how one looks at the performance.
Good performance or super performance cannot have any trade-off. Any performance, howsoever, excellent may it be, has to be delivered by remaining in the framework of the discipline. If some employee performs well but at the cost of punctuality then it is not a good performance at all. Condoning punctuality cannot be privilege at all.
Argyris has compared discipline with the hot stove. Whoever touches, the hot stove gives equal burn. The stove does not look at the person touching it. Execution of discipline to the similar to the hot stove. Therefore, Argyris teaches us that principle of equality is the foundation of discipline. Violate the principle, and there are troubles elsewhere.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
20th December 2017 From India, Bangalore
In highly creative fields like advertising, core R&D etc, it well known that certain freedoms and unconventional work arrangements are allowed, but allowing a rather bohemian style in normal office working would be at the cost of discipline. As pointed out by Dinesh Sir, the hot stove Rule proposed by Douglas Murray McGregor in the early 60's (McGregor was an influential personality in the management world, well known for his book, The Human Side of Enterprise (published in 1960) is very much relevant. If Marketing Manager comes and goes at whim, her subordinates also would follow the same rule and soon there would be no end. The anguish of Divya is understandable and is justified.
20th December 2017 From India, Mumbai
Senior s have said correctly .But on safer side if you had communicated in writing keep note of it ,in case not keep some record of it .(Both parties Marketing Manager & Employer) .It may happen due to some poor show of Marketing, Management may change decision ,that time this will help you
20th December 2017 From India, Mumbai
It is good to be flexible in timings so long as the work is done and within the time limits. Gone are the days when some of the corporate used to act like school and discipline was paramount than work being done. If the employee is good at work and the reporting manager does not seem to have issues at the employee being consistently late to work but still does her job, just leave it at that. It should not become a prestige issue between the employee concerned and the HR. HR department can only thrive for the company when it understands and goes with the tide and not just rules alone.
20th December 2017 From India, Hyderabad
I want to write email to employees saying him that come on casual dreess how i can write the email to employee
21st December 2017 From India, undefined
Dear Nami,
This is a different thread on timings and flexibility of employees. Do not divert the forum, post it separately.
21st December 2017 From India, Hyderabad
A whole set of tech-savvy new generation grown up in socio-economic environment that is vastly different from that of 1950s to 1970s called milliniels have come to make a significant portion of the workforce in modern work places.They are innovative,aspirational, hard working,freedom loving and result oriented. They feel stifled by control and heirarchy. They like flat offices and they will be in direct communication with their bosses.Though they come late to office, probably they might be working at home on their laptaps for two hours before reaching office.They are changing the paradigms of work culture and the managements after incurring the high cost of acquiring those talents, may not be willing to loose them. So the traditional norms of punctuality and attendance are slowly replaced by flexi hours of working to woo them more so in functions like IT, telecommunications, marketing, branding and designing etc.
However punctuality and attendance is still an essential virtue in manufacturing and customer driven business transactions like banking, insurance and retail stores etc.
The HR needs to accordingly adapt itself to the changing paradigms of work culture which is leaning more towards performance driven than punctuality driven in creative avocations.
B.Saikumar
HR & Labour Relations Adviser
Navi Mumbai
21st December 2017 From India, Mumbai
Hi there,
I totally have different view on the "Marketing Manager" coming late. In most companies, they don't even have timings and will be given flexible timings and also timings are not strictly followed.
As the ultimate goal is get business for companies, many times visit outside client directly or come to office and go from there on, so they don't punch out. Morever, most companies, are fine with this as long as his/her reporting boss is fine with it.
I would have agreed, if the accounts department or finance department does not come in time. These are times when certain flexibility is also given to manager's and are asked for work for say set standard 8 hours of time, from the time of their reporting.
Let us not forget that, as long as they get the business, that is what sustains the company going ,else the very survival of company is at stake. that flexibility is considered in most companies, especially to the HOD or Employee at Manager level.
What is HR position , if the employee comes in time and goes in time, but not able to generate business. Kindly note, I am in HR as well and speaking from that perspective.
thanks
22nd December 2017 From India, Visakhapatnam
Thank you Mr.Dinesh Divekarthanks for ur smart reply and like ur reply."Why you tried shooting while keeping gun on your shoulder? Smart HRs always shoot by keeping gun on the seniors shoulder!".Now I know the "SMART HR " this is very helpful to me.And thank you divya I'm also troubled the same issue.Thanks a lot.
29th December 2017 From India, Warangal
Mr. Dinesh and Mr. Sai Kumar provided proper feedback.
Being a HR, we always try to make certain discipline in the organisation, but some case it's also difficult due to various reasons and condition. Here, your manager is looking her requirements for business, so they are not concerning and explained to you that they are less concern, but at the same time there might be chances if the case for other employee. Here only you should understand your management meaning. Now, you should start to collect each cases of employees and if anyone giving her example for late coming, which can be documented and can be presented in future if the issues comes to you from management.
10th January 2018 From India, Ahmadabad
Dear Vrgajjar,
Discipline should be viewed as a condition within an organisation whereby Employees know what is expected of them in terms of the organisation’s rules, Standards and policies and what the consequences are of infractions.· —Rue & Byars, 1996
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISCIPLINE?
The immediate supervisor is responsible for maintaining discipline and morale among employees he/she supervises and for initiating appropriate disciplinary action where there is adequate reason The line supervisor is mainly responsible for the enforcement of company rules. It is a very important responsibility requiring impartiality, good judgment, and moral courage. Disciplinary action should, therefore, be taken by the immediate line supervisor. But, to avoid embarrassments and violation of company policies/rules as well as of union agreements/laws of the nation, before taking disciplinary action involving warning letters, suspensions or dismissals, he must first mandatorily consult in writing with his superior and the personnel manager.
HR is expected to be knowledgeable with laws/policies/procedure/natural justice etc and competent to advice line of action and steps to achieve aim of disciplinary actions.
Investigations, hearings, and specific procedures may be involved in serious disciplinary cases. It must be remembered that disciplinary action is a tool, not a weapon of supervision.
So in the instant case, the superior of the late coming manager needs to take considered view on the subject.
HR can step in advisory capacity if asked or it is noticed that the disease of late coming is spreading by example.
HR here is to playing a balancing role of advisory nature and avoid getting tinto a situation where employee quits and HR gets blame for making a result oreinted employee quit.
10th January 2018 From India, Pune
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