Dear All,
I have an employee who recently joined us from a reputed IT firm, and upon third-party verification, it was found that the employee has submitted fake relieving documents for his/her previous employment. I spoke to the employee and found that his/her previous employer was not relieving him/her from services as the notice period stated in his/her agreement was 2 months, while the employee had completed only 1 month of the said notice period.
Now, I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediate effect for "forging employment documents." Would like to understand your view on the same.
Secondly, would also like to request your assistance with a draft Termination letter stating/pertaining to the submission of fake/forged employment documents.
From United Kingdom, London
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4I have an employee who recently joined us from a reputed IT firm, and upon third-party verification, it was found that the employee has submitted fake relieving documents for his/her previous employment. I spoke to the employee and found that his/her previous employer was not relieving him/her from services as the notice period stated in his/her agreement was 2 months, while the employee had completed only 1 month of the said notice period.
Now, I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediate effect for "forging employment documents." Would like to understand your view on the same.
Secondly, would also like to request your assistance with a draft Termination letter stating/pertaining to the submission of fake/forged employment documents.
From United Kingdom, London
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Hi Trinity, I suggest not rushing through with termination.
There are times when employers give torrid times to subordinates - the dog in the manger policy; they don't live and don't want others to live.
Look at the worth of this guy. If he fits your requirements and is really good, give him a try. Just hand him a personal memo.
In one of my earlier jobs, the notice period was only 1 month. When I got a job offer and gave one month's notice, the boss said that he needed to recruit a new person whom I needed to train, despite it not being in the offer letter. The process actually took 3 months. I had to forego the offer and look for another job.
Talk to him in private. A higher position means higher responsibilities, not the power to hire and fire. He came to you because of the good offer, and now, by your action, you are putting him in no man's land. Don't blow your top yet. Also, would you have waited if he had come after his normal 2-month relieving period?
From India, Madras
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There are times when employers give torrid times to subordinates - the dog in the manger policy; they don't live and don't want others to live.
Look at the worth of this guy. If he fits your requirements and is really good, give him a try. Just hand him a personal memo.
In one of my earlier jobs, the notice period was only 1 month. When I got a job offer and gave one month's notice, the boss said that he needed to recruit a new person whom I needed to train, despite it not being in the offer letter. The process actually took 3 months. I had to forego the offer and look for another job.
Talk to him in private. A higher position means higher responsibilities, not the power to hire and fire. He came to you because of the good offer, and now, by your action, you are putting him in no man's land. Don't blow your top yet. Also, would you have waited if he had come after his normal 2-month relieving period?
From India, Madras
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Hi Trinity,
I made a mistake by "forgiving" a person who gave me forged documents, including a forged salary slip. After discovering this, he pleaded with me, claiming he couldn't afford to lose the job and promised to be "truthful." This individual was troublesome for everyone and has recently gone back to his native place without returning. The worst part is that he has created a negative atmosphere.
Okay, that's a part of my blunder series!
Regarding your situation, I suggest conducting a reference check on his performance and tenure at his previous companies. If you choose to overlook this issue, he may either prove to be a sincere employee or take advantage of the situation. Terminating him would serve as an example to others that such behavior is not tolerated by the company.
So, you need to decide whether to terminate him and find a replacement (setting an example) or forgive him. However, if his previous company finds out he is employed by you, you might have to pay them the notice period salary.
I know I may have confused you, but at the end of the day, you need to consider what's best for the company. :-)
From India, Madras
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I made a mistake by "forgiving" a person who gave me forged documents, including a forged salary slip. After discovering this, he pleaded with me, claiming he couldn't afford to lose the job and promised to be "truthful." This individual was troublesome for everyone and has recently gone back to his native place without returning. The worst part is that he has created a negative atmosphere.
Okay, that's a part of my blunder series!
Regarding your situation, I suggest conducting a reference check on his performance and tenure at his previous companies. If you choose to overlook this issue, he may either prove to be a sincere employee or take advantage of the situation. Terminating him would serve as an example to others that such behavior is not tolerated by the company.
So, you need to decide whether to terminate him and find a replacement (setting an example) or forgive him. However, if his previous company finds out he is employed by you, you might have to pay them the notice period salary.
I know I may have confused you, but at the end of the day, you need to consider what's best for the company. :-)
From India, Madras
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Hi Asha,
Trinity's company may have given the guy/gal one month's time to join and pressured him to join. He might (or might not) have been informed about the two months' notice period and could have been compelled to accept (not defending the action though - forgery is forgery). Test his true worth. Put him under a tough but fair taskmaster and inform him that you are putting him on notice for this action. If he performs well in his job, he will be excused one final time. Have it documented in your file and obtain his signature regarding the same. If necessary, you can use this as a basis for letting the person go.
Your company instigated this situation, and now you are attempting to distance yourself from it! Have a calm one-on-one conversation, and you will achieve a positive outcome.
From India, Madras
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Trinity's company may have given the guy/gal one month's time to join and pressured him to join. He might (or might not) have been informed about the two months' notice period and could have been compelled to accept (not defending the action though - forgery is forgery). Test his true worth. Put him under a tough but fair taskmaster and inform him that you are putting him on notice for this action. If he performs well in his job, he will be excused one final time. Have it documented in your file and obtain his signature regarding the same. If necessary, you can use this as a basis for letting the person go.
Your company instigated this situation, and now you are attempting to distance yourself from it! Have a calm one-on-one conversation, and you will achieve a positive outcome.
From India, Madras
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Hi Holy Trinity,
I agree with Alwar's message. Nowadays, the IT companies are themselves doctoring the CVs of their staff when submitting to the clients. Has your company or someone known to you not done that? If that is deemed acceptable to secure an order, then this practice is also okay. I know from experience that an honest CV does not always land me the job I deserve.
From India, Madras
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I agree with Alwar's message. Nowadays, the IT companies are themselves doctoring the CVs of their staff when submitting to the clients. Has your company or someone known to you not done that? If that is deemed acceptable to secure an order, then this practice is also okay. I know from experience that an honest CV does not always land me the job I deserve.
From India, Madras
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Hi,
In my opinion, you can cross-check his other documents, i.e., appointment letter, date of joining (DoJ), last salary drawn, with the information he provided in his CV at the time of the interview or submission of the CV. If it is correct, try to give him a chance to prove his caliber; otherwise, you can show him the door. This is what assertiveness is.
From India, Hyderabad
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In my opinion, you can cross-check his other documents, i.e., appointment letter, date of joining (DoJ), last salary drawn, with the information he provided in his CV at the time of the interview or submission of the CV. If it is correct, try to give him a chance to prove his caliber; otherwise, you can show him the door. This is what assertiveness is.
From India, Hyderabad
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Hi, I support Ramesh's view on this case; termination should not be done in a hurry. Kindly inquire properly before initiating any action against him as these days after resignation, employers can give a tough time to the resigned employee. Issuing a warning letter may be a good option; the rest all depends on the company's values and practices in this case.
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In my opinion, you can cross-check his other documents, i.e., appointment letter, Date of Joining (DoJ), and last salary drawn, with the information he provided in his CV at the time of the interview/submission of CV. If it is correct, try to give him a chance to prove his caliber; otherwise, you can show him the door. This is what assertiveness is.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Hi,
All of you are really wasting your time and knowledge with a naggy issue. What do you require to run a project? People's worth or people on paper? You all just think about yourselves - in your life, "none of you are doing anything wrong" or making any wrong commitments to anyone.
From India, Patna
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All of you are really wasting your time and knowledge with a naggy issue. What do you require to run a project? People's worth or people on paper? You all just think about yourselves - in your life, "none of you are doing anything wrong" or making any wrong commitments to anyone.
From India, Patna
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Any forged document should be treated as an integrity issue. For integrity, we can't have two ways. What we can do is to encourage the candidates during the interviews to not hide any information. Even if the candidate has not had the most pleasant exits, he should be able to speak about the same. It should also be communicated during interviews, in not many words, that there would be a formal background check conducted.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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Dear Arup,
This is what I thought of initially, but when the person took advantage of the situation - we can't afford to let another person also do the same thing. Attitude and integrity in work matters. Whatever you may be in your personal life does not matter, how true you are to your work matters.
From India, Madras
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This is what I thought of initially, but when the person took advantage of the situation - we can't afford to let another person also do the same thing. Attitude and integrity in work matters. Whatever you may be in your personal life does not matter, how true you are to your work matters.
From India, Madras
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Hi,
Regarding this issue, I believe one should first check reputation of employee’s previous organization. Many SMEs treat employees as their slaves and bind them to work forever.
I have been working with small Gujarat based IT firm. My notice period was for 2 months and I served for 1 month and paid 1 month’s salary. I was relieved and was not given Relieving letter. They told that they were busy and will post my work certificate, and relieving letter within a month. It has been 3 months and I have not received any of the letters (neither relieving nor work certificate). On enquiring, they said that they are making loss because they still dint find any replacement. So, they want to harass me and warned me not to take legal actions as they are politically connected. There are many employees in that company struggling for salary, certificates. Also, they give very bad reference to the new employer and one of my friend end-up losing a good offer.
So, in such situation, poor employee has to submit fake documents. I am stuck as I have applied for various jobs showing my actual details and during cross-check, I am sure it will be tough for my new employer to trust me.
From India, Vadodara
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Regarding this issue, I believe one should first check reputation of employee’s previous organization. Many SMEs treat employees as their slaves and bind them to work forever.
I have been working with small Gujarat based IT firm. My notice period was for 2 months and I served for 1 month and paid 1 month’s salary. I was relieved and was not given Relieving letter. They told that they were busy and will post my work certificate, and relieving letter within a month. It has been 3 months and I have not received any of the letters (neither relieving nor work certificate). On enquiring, they said that they are making loss because they still dint find any replacement. So, they want to harass me and warned me not to take legal actions as they are politically connected. There are many employees in that company struggling for salary, certificates. Also, they give very bad reference to the new employer and one of my friend end-up losing a good offer.
So, in such situation, poor employee has to submit fake documents. I am stuck as I have applied for various jobs showing my actual details and during cross-check, I am sure it will be tough for my new employer to trust me.
From India, Vadodara
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Dear Innocent Guy,
In such situations, don't submit fake documents, but provide all facts (copies of your relieving letter, proof of paying one month's salary, etc). If you follow the truth, you will have to be bold. If you are weak, then please lie and fall once again!
From India, Madras
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In such situations, don't submit fake documents, but provide all facts (copies of your relieving letter, proof of paying one month's salary, etc). If you follow the truth, you will have to be bold. If you are weak, then please lie and fall once again!
From India, Madras
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Hi Trinity,
I am sure you/your organization would have taken a call by now. My final suggestion is this - inform the gal/guy that you are giving him one month's notice, by which time he can search for a new job and quit this one. All the problems for both ends can be resolved. The guy can get a new job, and you can get a replacement.
We all say that when you quit, go out on good terms. But how many times have companies treated outgoing employees like that? The people involved - HR, the immediate bosses treat these people with disdain and contempt, all this for quitting. If a company can go in for a good hand, why can't employees quit for better prospects? I don't condone the attitude of employees who fake their resumes to get a job. What we need is honesty and transparency. We need to do a few skills tests, aptitude tests, personal interviews, and reference checks. The recruitment process needs to be more comprehensive so that the person who comes in fits smoothly into the operational process.
In my organization where I worked for 10 years, I got permission from top management and HR to undertake higher studies. However, when it came to getting leave for appearing in the exam, they refused to permit me, not once but thrice. The exams were on Sundays, and I was deliberately asked to go on duty during those days. I had to spend from my own pocket as the company did not sponsor me. How would you feel if the attitude is like this – would you expect my loyalty to this organization?
We talk about human resources management but only focus on management and not about human resources, which is the strength of any organization. That's why there's high employee turnover.
From India, Madras
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I am sure you/your organization would have taken a call by now. My final suggestion is this - inform the gal/guy that you are giving him one month's notice, by which time he can search for a new job and quit this one. All the problems for both ends can be resolved. The guy can get a new job, and you can get a replacement.
We all say that when you quit, go out on good terms. But how many times have companies treated outgoing employees like that? The people involved - HR, the immediate bosses treat these people with disdain and contempt, all this for quitting. If a company can go in for a good hand, why can't employees quit for better prospects? I don't condone the attitude of employees who fake their resumes to get a job. What we need is honesty and transparency. We need to do a few skills tests, aptitude tests, personal interviews, and reference checks. The recruitment process needs to be more comprehensive so that the person who comes in fits smoothly into the operational process.
In my organization where I worked for 10 years, I got permission from top management and HR to undertake higher studies. However, when it came to getting leave for appearing in the exam, they refused to permit me, not once but thrice. The exams were on Sundays, and I was deliberately asked to go on duty during those days. I had to spend from my own pocket as the company did not sponsor me. How would you feel if the attitude is like this – would you expect my loyalty to this organization?
We talk about human resources management but only focus on management and not about human resources, which is the strength of any organization. That's why there's high employee turnover.
From India, Madras
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Hello Trinity,
I agree with Tanu Chopra. If you are really doubting the employee, it's better to go for another reference check. Conduct a third-party reference check; this will help you get a clear picture of the employee. Also, in the meantime, keep a close check on his work, responsibilities, and his behavior with his subordinates. Do not make a hasty decision. Give yourself and the employee time to identify the root cause of the issue.
Regards,
Almitra
(Akshay Software Technologies Limited)
From India, Mumbai
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I agree with Tanu Chopra. If you are really doubting the employee, it's better to go for another reference check. Conduct a third-party reference check; this will help you get a clear picture of the employee. Also, in the meantime, keep a close check on his work, responsibilities, and his behavior with his subordinates. Do not make a hasty decision. Give yourself and the employee time to identify the root cause of the issue.
Regards,
Almitra
(Akshay Software Technologies Limited)
From India, Mumbai
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Hi Think as a humanbeing and act accordingly. Give him/her a chance and do the needful. Don’t take any wrong decision which affects a lot to that employee life.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Trinity,
Nowadays, it is becoming quite common to submit bogus certificates claiming experience. It is also a mistake that your side has made. If you have a policy of background verification, then you need to conduct background verification first before proceeding with the joining formalities. Here, you need to understand the individual's importance in the project if they have been assigned one. If you feel that there is no damage to the project they are working on, then you can immediately terminate them, citing the cause of the verification conducted by your company, and ask them to submit their resignation letter.
From India, Hyderabad
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Nowadays, it is becoming quite common to submit bogus certificates claiming experience. It is also a mistake that your side has made. If you have a policy of background verification, then you need to conduct background verification first before proceeding with the joining formalities. Here, you need to understand the individual's importance in the project if they have been assigned one. If you feel that there is no damage to the project they are working on, then you can immediately terminate them, citing the cause of the verification conducted by your company, and ask them to submit their resignation letter.
From India, Hyderabad
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Forgery is not to be forgiven. It can not be an excuse under any circumstances, it is an attitude/approach of the person. I am flabbergasted to see the responses of our some HR fellows who says that forgery should be given consideration.
If some one cheat on a small thing, can cheat any organization for big thing also. It shows the character / Integrity of a person and should be dealt seriously.
In IT organizations, we have customer from all around the world. The work is given to us simply on 1 basis of "Trust". We store/share many confidential informations, which can be leaked by such people. in that case, company will loose the credibility. My organization has one value as "ethics and integrity" out of 7 values.
The persone should be terminated w.e.f. whatsoever reason he has for fake documents, can not justify this.
Innocent Guy, every organization understand that such incidents may happen with any one and have mechanism to deal with it also. You need to disclose this information to the recruiter/concern HR well in advance and submit your supporting documents after getting the offer/before background verification starts. If you are truthful, exception approvals are taken in the organizations from the senior management by the HR/Recruiter.
As "fake/forging the documents" cases are rising, most of the organizations are opting for Third party verification and have robust system for the same. So thinking we will not be caught is a illusion. It will be for the time being only, till you are lucky.
From India
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If some one cheat on a small thing, can cheat any organization for big thing also. It shows the character / Integrity of a person and should be dealt seriously.
In IT organizations, we have customer from all around the world. The work is given to us simply on 1 basis of "Trust". We store/share many confidential informations, which can be leaked by such people. in that case, company will loose the credibility. My organization has one value as "ethics and integrity" out of 7 values.
The persone should be terminated w.e.f. whatsoever reason he has for fake documents, can not justify this.
Innocent Guy, every organization understand that such incidents may happen with any one and have mechanism to deal with it also. You need to disclose this information to the recruiter/concern HR well in advance and submit your supporting documents after getting the offer/before background verification starts. If you are truthful, exception approvals are taken in the organizations from the senior management by the HR/Recruiter.
As "fake/forging the documents" cases are rising, most of the organizations are opting for Third party verification and have robust system for the same. So thinking we will not be caught is a illusion. It will be for the time being only, till you are lucky.
From India
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Check his other documents. If he is relying only on his relieving letter, then you can give him a chance. If he had asked you for a 2-month joining time, you would have hired somebody else. Think from every angle before making the decision.
Regards,
Advaita
Sr. Exec.-HR
From India, Gurgaon
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Regards,
Advaita
Sr. Exec.-HR
From India, Gurgaon
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Dear Mathew,
They haven't provided me a relieving letter. Also, there is no concrete proof for the salary paid as according to the company's policy, my 2-month salary goes on hold as soon as I submit my resignation. So, I worked for 1 month, and my that month's salary was not paid. I know taking a relieving letter is very important, but I trusted them as they said it would be done within a few days. Now, I am jobless, with no concrete proof of my 1-year experience. I am scared of mentioning that company's name on my CV as they give bad references to new employers. My total experience is only 2 years, including this. Hence, I cannot even show other company's references. In the interview, I am not sure how good it is to say that the company cheated me. There are around 4-5 of us struggling like this, and we cannot even sue them.
From India, Vadodara
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They haven't provided me a relieving letter. Also, there is no concrete proof for the salary paid as according to the company's policy, my 2-month salary goes on hold as soon as I submit my resignation. So, I worked for 1 month, and my that month's salary was not paid. I know taking a relieving letter is very important, but I trusted them as they said it would be done within a few days. Now, I am jobless, with no concrete proof of my 1-year experience. I am scared of mentioning that company's name on my CV as they give bad references to new employers. My total experience is only 2 years, including this. Hence, I cannot even show other company's references. In the interview, I am not sure how good it is to say that the company cheated me. There are around 4-5 of us struggling like this, and we cannot even sue them.
From India, Vadodara
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Dear innocent guy,
I sympathize with you. Companies need to be fair in their dealings, but by their cheap mentality (of the personnel), all the good is undone. It's a learning experience for you and will help you cope better when you grow in your career.
Just remember that we need to be fair when we rise in our career and treat our employees with respect and dignity when they work with us and when they leave us. Our legacy should be such that people will respect us for what we have said and done, despite our position.
The higher the position, the more the responsibility. Unfortunately, a lot of people think that a higher position means they can do anything and undermine themselves and their position.
From India, Madras
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I sympathize with you. Companies need to be fair in their dealings, but by their cheap mentality (of the personnel), all the good is undone. It's a learning experience for you and will help you cope better when you grow in your career.
Just remember that we need to be fair when we rise in our career and treat our employees with respect and dignity when they work with us and when they leave us. Our legacy should be such that people will respect us for what we have said and done, despite our position.
The higher the position, the more the responsibility. Unfortunately, a lot of people think that a higher position means they can do anything and undermine themselves and their position.
From India, Madras
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I agree with Ramesh and others who have suggested verifying his other documents and putting him on observation for a month. We should be assertive and not aggressive in our dealings with people :)
All the best Trinity!!
Regards,
Gaurav
From India, Gurgaon
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All the best Trinity!!
Regards,
Gaurav
From India, Gurgaon
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Hello Trinity,
According to the basic rule, you have to sack him/her.
You can also check the credibility of that employee. You have hired him/her because he/she has gone through the interviews. That itself shows that he/she qualifies to work in your organization. If the issue regarding fake documents is the notice period, then you can sometimes allow him/her to work.
Legally, a valid notice period is acceptable. The court doesn't appreciate notice periods of more than 1 month unless the employee's role is very important.
I advised my friend to file a case against his company because they had a notice period of 3 months. Ultimately, the company settled the case. Do you think there are any possibilities for a company to accept a new employee after 2 months (excluding freshers)?
In big Fortune 500 companies, we hire people for specific projects with significant requirements. We hire many employees even if they have provided fake experience, as the client requires employees with at least 3 or 5 years of experience in the project.
What I check for is the individual's ability to manage the project along with other criteria (they would have cleared the technical round before meeting me). If the person's performance level, attitude, and track record are good, call them to your office and inform them that you have discovered falsified documents. Request a letter explaining the reasons and keep it on record.
Seek advice but act according to your discretion.
It's all in your hands; you have to make the decision.
From India, Bangalore
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According to the basic rule, you have to sack him/her.
You can also check the credibility of that employee. You have hired him/her because he/she has gone through the interviews. That itself shows that he/she qualifies to work in your organization. If the issue regarding fake documents is the notice period, then you can sometimes allow him/her to work.
Legally, a valid notice period is acceptable. The court doesn't appreciate notice periods of more than 1 month unless the employee's role is very important.
I advised my friend to file a case against his company because they had a notice period of 3 months. Ultimately, the company settled the case. Do you think there are any possibilities for a company to accept a new employee after 2 months (excluding freshers)?
In big Fortune 500 companies, we hire people for specific projects with significant requirements. We hire many employees even if they have provided fake experience, as the client requires employees with at least 3 or 5 years of experience in the project.
What I check for is the individual's ability to manage the project along with other criteria (they would have cleared the technical round before meeting me). If the person's performance level, attitude, and track record are good, call them to your office and inform them that you have discovered falsified documents. Request a letter explaining the reasons and keep it on record.
Seek advice but act according to your discretion.
It's all in your hands; you have to make the decision.
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Innocentguy,
Don't worry about your situation. You should just mention the actual company's name on your resume and explain the same to the interviewer. It is not always easy, but it can still work out.
The screening round will have a significant impact. Do not tell them that you don't have complete documents unless you reach the final HR round. Just explain it to the HR, speak boldly, and trust me, I always look for the confidence level in a person.
Again, these are not easy tasks, but give it a try rather than dwelling on what has happened.
From India, Bangalore
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Don't worry about your situation. You should just mention the actual company's name on your resume and explain the same to the interviewer. It is not always easy, but it can still work out.
The screening round will have a significant impact. Do not tell them that you don't have complete documents unless you reach the final HR round. Just explain it to the HR, speak boldly, and trust me, I always look for the confidence level in a person.
Again, these are not easy tasks, but give it a try rather than dwelling on what has happened.
From India, Bangalore
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If you understand that his relieving documents alone have been faked, I am sure there needs to be a genuine reason for the same. Since he is also aware that you have found out that the documents are fake, I suggest you ask him to provide references of people whom you can talk to so that we can understand that his reason is genuine. Though his way of approach is unethical, I am sure a genuine reason would add weightage to take a call on this candidate.
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Thanks, guys.
Your replies have instilled confidence in me. I will proceed with providing my actual details and will address any issues once I am selected. Fortunately, local IT companies are already familiar with the reputation of that company and do not require extensive documentation. The challenge may arise with non-IT and companies located outside the city.
I do not wish to tarnish the company's reputation, but I am curious if there is an HR network where professionals from various companies are informed about this particular company. Many of my former colleagues are considering leaving this company; however, once the resignation process begins, complications arise. Is there a lasting solution for these employees?
From India, Vadodara
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Your replies have instilled confidence in me. I will proceed with providing my actual details and will address any issues once I am selected. Fortunately, local IT companies are already familiar with the reputation of that company and do not require extensive documentation. The challenge may arise with non-IT and companies located outside the city.
I do not wish to tarnish the company's reputation, but I am curious if there is an HR network where professionals from various companies are informed about this particular company. Many of my former colleagues are considering leaving this company; however, once the resignation process begins, complications arise. Is there a lasting solution for these employees?
From India, Vadodara
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I agree with the opinion of Ramesh & Alwar. You should give him/her a chance to prove to himself/herself. As you say, "who recently joined us from a reputed IT firm and upon third-party verification," I think the fault in third-party verification also gave warnings to the third party too. Regards, Rahul
From Singapore
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From Singapore
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Dear innocent guy,
Change now into an IT company that accepts you and later on move to greener pastures. Then this present issue would be null and void as people will be concerned with the latest role you have performed. Never stop believing in yourself.
From India, Madras
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Change now into an IT company that accepts you and later on move to greener pastures. Then this present issue would be null and void as people will be concerned with the latest role you have performed. Never stop believing in yourself.
From India, Madras
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Dear All,
In my opinion, performance has nothing to do with the ethics and integrity of an individual. If an employee lacks ethics and integrity, would you compromise on their performance, no matter how high their level of performance? I do not think any professionally run organization would do that. What if the employee tomorrow sells company information or data to a competitor? Then the HR Department will be put into question, knowing that such an incident has already occurred with the employee in the past.
The opportunity to give them a second chance arises only when their performance is in question, and we believe that such issues can be rectified or improved. There should be no compromise on the ethics and integrity of an organization. Most importantly, this sets an example for others to follow.
Regards
From India, Mumbai
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In my opinion, performance has nothing to do with the ethics and integrity of an individual. If an employee lacks ethics and integrity, would you compromise on their performance, no matter how high their level of performance? I do not think any professionally run organization would do that. What if the employee tomorrow sells company information or data to a competitor? Then the HR Department will be put into question, knowing that such an incident has already occurred with the employee in the past.
The opportunity to give them a second chance arises only when their performance is in question, and we believe that such issues can be rectified or improved. There should be no compromise on the ethics and integrity of an organization. Most importantly, this sets an example for others to follow.
Regards
From India, Mumbai
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Hi,
I am working as an HR cum Admin officer in an Export House in Mumbai. In my company, management recently started an HR department in the last year. I have been there for the past four months, but I am not happy with this company. The notice period in my company is one month after confirmation. One of the employees has given the notice period and taken the salary, but now she is not coming to work. Consequently, my boss sent her a notice. She is facing personal problems, which is why she is not coming to work. Now, my boss is saying it's my duty to ask her to come and serve the notice period; otherwise, he will send her a notice.
I am confused about what to do. Please help me with this situation.
From India, Mumbai
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I am working as an HR cum Admin officer in an Export House in Mumbai. In my company, management recently started an HR department in the last year. I have been there for the past four months, but I am not happy with this company. The notice period in my company is one month after confirmation. One of the employees has given the notice period and taken the salary, but now she is not coming to work. Consequently, my boss sent her a notice. She is facing personal problems, which is why she is not coming to work. Now, my boss is saying it's my duty to ask her to come and serve the notice period; otherwise, he will send her a notice.
I am confused about what to do. Please help me with this situation.
From India, Mumbai
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Hi All,
I appreciate your responses to the query I had raised. While I do understand that being a human, I need to ensure that ample chance is given to an employee to prove himself, any breach in any area of employment is not warranted.
In this particular case, the employee forged a document, and the same got reflected in her Background Verification. The employee took pains in procuring a letterhead, drafting a letter, and signing the document on behalf of the HR Head of the previous firm. If I did let her go, I would be responsible for violating QMS procedure and would be held liable if the employee errs again. My point is, if the employee can fake a document today, she can fake other things as well. Management's perception is the same and is in accordance with future threats that could be envisaged from the erring employee.
I spoke to her today and have dismissed her from her services with immediate effect. I explained to her that a) salary for this month will still be credited b) No notice pay will be rolled out c) we will keep a record for any future reference checks d) we won't go to the police and lodge an FIR for forgery d) we won't intimate her previous employer about the fake document she created, thereby reducing any chances of legal implications.
I also spoke to the internal teams and explained the reason for the dismissal of the erring employee.
The dismissal letter I rolled out is as follows:
To,
XYZ
Address
Date: 21st September 2009
Subject: Dismissal from services
XYZ,
As you and I have already discussed, your receipt of this letter represents your official dismissal as an employee of ABC Pvt Ltd, effective today. A company such as ours has an obligation to adhere to the most exacting standards of employment integrity. Since you have demonstrated a willingness to compromise these standards, we cannot in good faith accede to your continued employment with us.
Realizing the delicate nature of this situation, I nevertheless need to inform you that ABC Pvt Ltd will maintain a confidential file detailing the events that have led to your dismissal. This file documents your manipulation of employment documents with the aim of gaining employment with us. While we will not attempt to hinder your future career in any way, protection of GamCom IT Services Pvt Ltd's legal interests and sound reputation requires us to preserve an internal record of all your actions relative to your dismissal.
It is also appropriate for me to inform you that we cannot recommend you to potential future employers upon their inquiry. For this reason, we ask you not to present our company's name or the names of company personnel as references. Please contact Ms. FNQ (HR Executive) for further information concerning your severance.
In spite of your unfortunate false start here at ABC Pvt Ltd and because we recognize your very real talent, we genuinely hope you find a bright new beginning for your career.
Regards,
From United Kingdom, London
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I appreciate your responses to the query I had raised. While I do understand that being a human, I need to ensure that ample chance is given to an employee to prove himself, any breach in any area of employment is not warranted.
In this particular case, the employee forged a document, and the same got reflected in her Background Verification. The employee took pains in procuring a letterhead, drafting a letter, and signing the document on behalf of the HR Head of the previous firm. If I did let her go, I would be responsible for violating QMS procedure and would be held liable if the employee errs again. My point is, if the employee can fake a document today, she can fake other things as well. Management's perception is the same and is in accordance with future threats that could be envisaged from the erring employee.
I spoke to her today and have dismissed her from her services with immediate effect. I explained to her that a) salary for this month will still be credited b) No notice pay will be rolled out c) we will keep a record for any future reference checks d) we won't go to the police and lodge an FIR for forgery d) we won't intimate her previous employer about the fake document she created, thereby reducing any chances of legal implications.
I also spoke to the internal teams and explained the reason for the dismissal of the erring employee.
The dismissal letter I rolled out is as follows:
To,
XYZ
Address
Date: 21st September 2009
Subject: Dismissal from services
XYZ,
As you and I have already discussed, your receipt of this letter represents your official dismissal as an employee of ABC Pvt Ltd, effective today. A company such as ours has an obligation to adhere to the most exacting standards of employment integrity. Since you have demonstrated a willingness to compromise these standards, we cannot in good faith accede to your continued employment with us.
Realizing the delicate nature of this situation, I nevertheless need to inform you that ABC Pvt Ltd will maintain a confidential file detailing the events that have led to your dismissal. This file documents your manipulation of employment documents with the aim of gaining employment with us. While we will not attempt to hinder your future career in any way, protection of GamCom IT Services Pvt Ltd's legal interests and sound reputation requires us to preserve an internal record of all your actions relative to your dismissal.
It is also appropriate for me to inform you that we cannot recommend you to potential future employers upon their inquiry. For this reason, we ask you not to present our company's name or the names of company personnel as references. Please contact Ms. FNQ (HR Executive) for further information concerning your severance.
In spite of your unfortunate false start here at ABC Pvt Ltd and because we recognize your very real talent, we genuinely hope you find a bright new beginning for your career.
Regards,
From United Kingdom, London
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(Fact Checked)-The user's reply is mostly correct in handling the situation of an employee submitting fake relieving documents. The termination letter provided is professional and appropriate. However, it's important to note that the company should consider legal implications of forgery and consult legal counsel if necessary. (1 Acknowledge point)
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Hi Trinity,
Handled with tact and guile, I suppose not endangering the employee's future will be good. This should serve as a warning to all those who are involved in such activities. I guess the matter has been settled amicably.
"First impression is the best impression."
From India, Madras
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Handled with tact and guile, I suppose not endangering the employee's future will be good. This should serve as a warning to all those who are involved in such activities. I guess the matter has been settled amicably.
"First impression is the best impression."
From India, Madras
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I go by what you say. But the employee "Forged her official relieving letters" and that is a punishable offense amounting to a Police FIR, and intimation of the same needs to be given to her previous org so that they can initiate an inquiry + legal action.
From United Kingdom, London
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From United Kingdom, London
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Hi Trinity,
It's a common mistake that most people make nowadays. Have a reference check with his previous employers for his performance. If he is good, then give him one month's notice to submit the original papers. Otherwise, you can go for termination, which serves as a lesson for all newcomers in the future.
Regards,
Vijay.
From India, Madras
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It's a common mistake that most people make nowadays. Have a reference check with his previous employers for his performance. If he is good, then give him one month's notice to submit the original papers. Otherwise, you can go for termination, which serves as a lesson for all newcomers in the future.
Regards,
Vijay.
From India, Madras
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Hi everyone,
I have an opinion. Why don't we do a reference check before we hire a candidate? Prevention is always better than cure. Why waste your time and money on their induction, training, and so on? The candidate may not join after the reference check, but at least you know you have hired the wrong person.
I also believe that as employers, we should promote transparency from the candidate. I have seen cases where employers reject candidates if they are open about their mistakes, such as gaps between two jobs or termination, etc. I think we should not only judge a candidate by what they have done but also by their ability to do things.
From India, Mumbai
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I have an opinion. Why don't we do a reference check before we hire a candidate? Prevention is always better than cure. Why waste your time and money on their induction, training, and so on? The candidate may not join after the reference check, but at least you know you have hired the wrong person.
I also believe that as employers, we should promote transparency from the candidate. I have seen cases where employers reject candidates if they are open about their mistakes, such as gaps between two jobs or termination, etc. I think we should not only judge a candidate by what they have done but also by their ability to do things.
From India, Mumbai
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Hi Trinity,
I agree with Jyoti. As I mentioned earlier, it's not always the employee's fault. She might have had a problem with her previous employer and could be afraid of disclosing it, fearing that she might end up losing your offer. You should consider negotiating with her regarding her salary, probation period, or bond.
Speaking about reference checks - how much can you trust a third party, especially when you are not familiar with them? Since she has already left the company without notice, it is likely that you will receive a negative reference.
In this scenario, I believe she should be evaluated based on her educational qualifications, personal background, and performance during the interview. As for taking legal action, treating a person who has made a mistake as a criminal may be too severe. A warning should be sufficient in this case.
I hope this helps clarify the situation. Let me know if you need further assistance.
Best regards,
[Your Name]
From India, Vadodara
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I agree with Jyoti. As I mentioned earlier, it's not always the employee's fault. She might have had a problem with her previous employer and could be afraid of disclosing it, fearing that she might end up losing your offer. You should consider negotiating with her regarding her salary, probation period, or bond.
Speaking about reference checks - how much can you trust a third party, especially when you are not familiar with them? Since she has already left the company without notice, it is likely that you will receive a negative reference.
In this scenario, I believe she should be evaluated based on her educational qualifications, personal background, and performance during the interview. As for taking legal action, treating a person who has made a mistake as a criminal may be too severe. A warning should be sufficient in this case.
I hope this helps clarify the situation. Let me know if you need further assistance.
Best regards,
[Your Name]
From India, Vadodara
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Yes! You can relieve him immediately with the note that he has given false information and fake certificates to the management. If you want to prove yourselves, please avail the certificate by accommodating private detective agencies.
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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Hi Everyone,
I have been reading the posts and have been wondering about the means by which one can do a follow-up. I have just joined this firm in Healthcare, wherein we do not have any processes. Could the seniors please suggest ways in which I could go for verification (apart from calling the company)?
I would appreciate if seniors from the IT sector could contribute their thoughts because I believe when it comes to background checks, IT has evolved significantly. Could seniors help, please?
From India
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I have been reading the posts and have been wondering about the means by which one can do a follow-up. I have just joined this firm in Healthcare, wherein we do not have any processes. Could the seniors please suggest ways in which I could go for verification (apart from calling the company)?
I would appreciate if seniors from the IT sector could contribute their thoughts because I believe when it comes to background checks, IT has evolved significantly. Could seniors help, please?
From India
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(Fact Checked)-The process for verifying employment history should involve more than just calling the company. Utilize third-party verification services for accurate results. (1 Acknowledge point)
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Hi Meenu,
If your organization has a budget, third-party verification is always advisable as they specialize in this field and have contacts to obtain information from various government/authenticated bodies.
In case there is no budget: Ask for all relevant documents from the candidate and send them to the respective organization for verification. Always ensure verification through email and from the company email ID.
Check the company listing on Nasdaq or with the local government authority.
Perform a physical verification of the company address. In one case we encountered, a person provided all relevant certificates and references, but during third-party verification, the security guard mentioned that the office existed a year ago but is now closed. Therefore, the verification feedback was amber/could not be verified. In such a scenario, it is at your company's discretion. We decided to reject the candidate as we were already paying a cost to the consultant, so there was no need to bear additional costs for an uncertain verification.
Some training institutes charge a certain amount from the candidate, provide training, and issue experience certificates of employment. If contacted, they can also verify this information. In such cases, it is up to management/HR discretion, aligned with the company policies, to either discount the experience or choose not to hire the individual.
Regards,
Anshu
From India
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If your organization has a budget, third-party verification is always advisable as they specialize in this field and have contacts to obtain information from various government/authenticated bodies.
In case there is no budget: Ask for all relevant documents from the candidate and send them to the respective organization for verification. Always ensure verification through email and from the company email ID.
Check the company listing on Nasdaq or with the local government authority.
Perform a physical verification of the company address. In one case we encountered, a person provided all relevant certificates and references, but during third-party verification, the security guard mentioned that the office existed a year ago but is now closed. Therefore, the verification feedback was amber/could not be verified. In such a scenario, it is at your company's discretion. We decided to reject the candidate as we were already paying a cost to the consultant, so there was no need to bear additional costs for an uncertain verification.
Some training institutes charge a certain amount from the candidate, provide training, and issue experience certificates of employment. If contacted, they can also verify this information. In such cases, it is up to management/HR discretion, aligned with the company policies, to either discount the experience or choose not to hire the individual.
Regards,
Anshu
From India
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Hi Trinity, Please ask for his Form16 which is legal document to prove, if he is genuine he would surely have it handy or get it from the previous employer.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Hi Trinity,
I agree with your comments on most of my arguments. Regarding verification, certificates, and other documents are good to verify. However, concerning reference checks, I think many times it's not true for SMEs with 10-50 employees, as owners are involved in all minute issues.
A month back, I saw a similar case. The employee was quite good, and the company wanted to retain him. He was selected by one firm, but during the reference check, his previous employer gave the worst recommendation, and he was rejected. Though later on, the firm came to know the truth about that company and employee, they had already selected someone else.
This is one case. I have heard of two more such cases in other companies. So what is to be done here? It was a loss to the employee as well as the new employer.
From India, Vadodara
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I agree with your comments on most of my arguments. Regarding verification, certificates, and other documents are good to verify. However, concerning reference checks, I think many times it's not true for SMEs with 10-50 employees, as owners are involved in all minute issues.
A month back, I saw a similar case. The employee was quite good, and the company wanted to retain him. He was selected by one firm, but during the reference check, his previous employer gave the worst recommendation, and he was rejected. Though later on, the firm came to know the truth about that company and employee, they had already selected someone else.
This is one case. I have heard of two more such cases in other companies. So what is to be done here? It was a loss to the employee as well as the new employer.
From India, Vadodara
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Dear all,
The only thing the person has faked is his relieving letter. Now, if we go by the rule, this ex-employee who has now joined your organization and has not been relieved by his previous company, meaning he is still on their payrolls, which is illegal. The employee's previous organization can file a litigation against your company, and you would not be able to prove his resignation. My personal opinion is, do not terminate him with immediate effect. Explain the situation and the gravity, ask him to talk to his previous organization, and try to convince them to relieve him. If that does not happen, I think you shouldn't go ahead with his candidature. After all, it's an integrity issue.
From India, New Delhi
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The only thing the person has faked is his relieving letter. Now, if we go by the rule, this ex-employee who has now joined your organization and has not been relieved by his previous company, meaning he is still on their payrolls, which is illegal. The employee's previous organization can file a litigation against your company, and you would not be able to prove his resignation. My personal opinion is, do not terminate him with immediate effect. Explain the situation and the gravity, ask him to talk to his previous organization, and try to convince them to relieve him. If that does not happen, I think you shouldn't go ahead with his candidature. After all, it's an integrity issue.
From India, New Delhi
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Dear friends,
1. I do not agree with Dazzle's view because once the employee submits his resignation, his responsibility is over, and the employer only has concern with the relieving period. Furthermore, the employer/company cannot sue or file a case against another employer/company where the said employee has joined. The previous company can only file a civil suit against the former employee for the recovery of the notice period and nothing else. It is the constitutional right of each individual to serve anywhere in India.
2. I also do not agree with the views of Kumarswamy because Form 16 is a legal document under the I.T. Act. It is a mirror of your earnings, deductions, and savings, so Form 16 only helps the new employer to know the genuine salary/income of the employee from the previous employer. Denial of Form 16 is an offense towards an employer.
I think it is better to discuss with the said employee and decide whether to retain the employee in the organization. For termination, you must have concrete proof/reason to terminate his service.
From India, Pune
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1. I do not agree with Dazzle's view because once the employee submits his resignation, his responsibility is over, and the employer only has concern with the relieving period. Furthermore, the employer/company cannot sue or file a case against another employer/company where the said employee has joined. The previous company can only file a civil suit against the former employee for the recovery of the notice period and nothing else. It is the constitutional right of each individual to serve anywhere in India.
2. I also do not agree with the views of Kumarswamy because Form 16 is a legal document under the I.T. Act. It is a mirror of your earnings, deductions, and savings, so Form 16 only helps the new employer to know the genuine salary/income of the employee from the previous employer. Denial of Form 16 is an offense towards an employer.
I think it is better to discuss with the said employee and decide whether to retain the employee in the organization. For termination, you must have concrete proof/reason to terminate his service.
From India, Pune
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Hi,
Submitting fake documents is a serious matter. It puts a question mark on one's personal integrity and values. Since you have already verified the facts from his previous employers, you may simply state the facts and terminate him.
Best,
Jai.
From India
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Submitting fake documents is a serious matter. It puts a question mark on one's personal integrity and values. Since you have already verified the facts from his previous employers, you may simply state the facts and terminate him.
Best,
Jai.
From India
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Thanks Dear Trinity. I need that copy... On a lighter note... :-) wish I terminate myself on the following grouds "Ash you are over worked... on citehr, so move! ;-) "
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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I have gone through most of the replies, and I am surprised that as HR personnel, mercy is shown to the guy who has misused the letterhead of the previous company. Misuse is entirely different from misinformation. We can tolerate misinformation, but definitely not misuse. He could misuse your company in a similar manner. This should not be justified at any cost. If the candidate has opted for the truth regarding his notice period, companies that can wait for one month can also wait for two months. I strongly agree with Ash's view somewhere in this thread.
Hi Trinity, while there is no doubt that this employee is to be shown the door, before giving termination notice, please counsel him and opt for voluntary resignation. If he does not accept voluntary resignation, then you can proceed with termination.
From India, Madras
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Hi Trinity, while there is no doubt that this employee is to be shown the door, before giving termination notice, please counsel him and opt for voluntary resignation. If he does not accept voluntary resignation, then you can proceed with termination.
From India, Madras
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Since he had submitted fake documents, he is working in your company against the law. But now that he is with your organization, in my opinion, it would be better to verify his background thoroughly. You can also consider suspending him from work with a memo for a period of one month as a punishment for the act he committed. This action will also serve as a deterrent to prevent him from repeating such behavior in another company. If he wishes to rejoin your organization, let him, but ensure to thoroughly screen his performance. If not, within this one-month period, if he manages to find another job, then it is good; be content that you have fulfilled your duty.
This is solely my opinion. There may be flaws; please correct any mistakes if anyone feels so.
HR Executive.
From India, Kochi
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This is solely my opinion. There may be flaws; please correct any mistakes if anyone feels so.
HR Executive.
From India, Kochi
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Hello everybody.
I would strongly recommend that instead of sacking the candidate, you should give him another try. Let me put one point before you all. I am drawing X salary, and according to the standard norms, if I switch over to another job, I will be paid a 30% hike. But if I really deserve more than a 30% hike, then what should I do? This is a very practical problem and a very genuine reason why people create false salary slips. We can surely ignore such forgeries, and we should see if the candidate is really useful for the firm.
Thanks.
From India, Mumbai
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I would strongly recommend that instead of sacking the candidate, you should give him another try. Let me put one point before you all. I am drawing X salary, and according to the standard norms, if I switch over to another job, I will be paid a 30% hike. But if I really deserve more than a 30% hike, then what should I do? This is a very practical problem and a very genuine reason why people create false salary slips. We can surely ignore such forgeries, and we should see if the candidate is really useful for the firm.
Thanks.
From India, Mumbai
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IHi Trinity,
agree with Ramesh and others , termination should not be done in hurry. Kindly go for a 3rd party reference check for his performance; verify his documents properly before initiating any action against him. You may issue him a memo, put him on observation for one month & in the mean while you can monitor his work, responsibilities and his behaviour with his colleagues – superiors & subordinates, if he fits your requirements and is really good, give him a try else…. you can go for termination which will stand as a moral for all new comers in future.
Regards
From India, Hyderabad
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agree with Ramesh and others , termination should not be done in hurry. Kindly go for a 3rd party reference check for his performance; verify his documents properly before initiating any action against him. You may issue him a memo, put him on observation for one month & in the mean while you can monitor his work, responsibilities and his behaviour with his colleagues – superiors & subordinates, if he fits your requirements and is really good, give him a try else…. you can go for termination which will stand as a moral for all new comers in future.
Regards
From India, Hyderabad
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The problem is we all tend to overestimate ourselves... However, if you think you deserve more than a 30% hike, be bold and ask the employer. I know people who have received a 40% hike too when asked for!
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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hi trinity, Chek his credentials with previous employers. Try to know from him the reason behind submitting fake relieving letter of previous employer.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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(Fact Checked)-[Correct response provided, acknowledging the user's suggestion to check the employee's credentials with previous employers and inquire about the reason behind the fake document submission. Thank you for your input.] (1 Acknowledge point)
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Trinity, you and your organization made the right decision to fire her. Bravo! Shame on us HR professionals if we condone forgery, theft, and unethical practices. "Two wrongs do not make a right." Integrity is something that no organization should compromise on. Keeping unscrupulous, unethical, wrong-doing individuals in an organization promotes an environment for deep-seated rot and corruption. It is the defected value system of tolerance of wrongdoers in India that has led to the widespread corruption in our governments, establishments, and other workplaces. We need to start cleaning up this rot for the betterment of our future generations.
We as HR professionals are at the forefront of this challenge to make India a better place to live and work by ensuring that we do not encourage criminal or unethical behavior in our homes and workplaces.
Rose S
From India, Mumbai
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We as HR professionals are at the forefront of this challenge to make India a better place to live and work by ensuring that we do not encourage criminal or unethical behavior in our homes and workplaces.
Rose S
From India, Mumbai
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Hi Trinity,
The worst thing we are facing every day is employment verification. In our organization, a candidate joined by submitting a fake relieving letter from his previous company. However, all other documents are perfectly in line with the offer letter, appointment letter, and even the latest appraisal letter. The mistake he made was adjusting 10 days in his relieving letter, i.e., increasing 10 working days by changing the date. Despite the candidate being very strong in the subject and communication, based on our top management's decision, we need to remove and sack him from the services.
My suggestion would be to sack him without any doubt, but first, determine what kind of resource he is for the project.
Regards,
Ramesh
From India, Hyderabad
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The worst thing we are facing every day is employment verification. In our organization, a candidate joined by submitting a fake relieving letter from his previous company. However, all other documents are perfectly in line with the offer letter, appointment letter, and even the latest appraisal letter. The mistake he made was adjusting 10 days in his relieving letter, i.e., increasing 10 working days by changing the date. Despite the candidate being very strong in the subject and communication, based on our top management's decision, we need to remove and sack him from the services.
My suggestion would be to sack him without any doubt, but first, determine what kind of resource he is for the project.
Regards,
Ramesh
From India, Hyderabad
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I am in complete agreement with Mr. Giridhar Alwar. If a person has proven their worth, it is better for the organization to give them an opportunity. Furthermore, the organization can issue a warning letter to the individual with instructions to leave the job without further delay. It should be made clear that such behavior should not be repeated in the future within our organization. Following this course of action, you will see that you are motivating the people.
Madhukar
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Madhukar
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As far as my knowledge goes, Mr. Ramesh and Mr. Alwar are right, and definitely, we are hiring a resource for our organization, not just issuing relieving letters and appointment letters. So, if you think that he fits the requirements and everything else is correct except for the relieving letter, he can be given a chance. Issue him a warning letter for the same and keep it in the records. Alternatively, you can put him on one month's notice, assess his performance and other factors.
There is always another side to the coin! Who knows, he might turn out to be the best resource for the organization.
I am clearly confused about one thing: when we don't trust our competitors for business-related activities such as investing in a fund, setting up a new branch, or implementing any other business strategy, why should we trust them when it comes to hiring the best resources for the company? They might also mislead us with incorrect information.
From India, Hyderabad
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There is always another side to the coin! Who knows, he might turn out to be the best resource for the organization.
I am clearly confused about one thing: when we don't trust our competitors for business-related activities such as investing in a fund, setting up a new branch, or implementing any other business strategy, why should we trust them when it comes to hiring the best resources for the company? They might also mislead us with incorrect information.
From India, Hyderabad
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Integrity is the primary quality for any good employee in any organization. If he or she is not true to oneself and lacks the courage to manipulate documents without disclosing the facts, no matter how great he is working for your organization, he will definitely betray you. I admire a person who has the courage to inform me that my current employer cannot release me due to certain important tasks, and I will do my best.
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Dear Friends;
Problem is not of one person getting job on producing fake documents. The real problem is the adamant attitude of management and lowering down the moral and values in real life. The very teaching of the parents/ teachers to stand first, to grab maximum, to exploit every thing leads to this situation. Life has become a race, a war. And everything is fare is the bottom line of today’s life.
You know, such case are increasing day by day and shall increase much rapidly if we do not realize the root causes. Treating the leaves will not improve the situation.
Be little human, when you are dealing with a human. If someone is willing to leave the job, why do you create so much hindrances in his/her progress? Can't you say goodbye with all good wishes and love?
And if you think that the employee is worth retaining, offer him/her better package so that both, the company and the employee will satisfy fully. And if you think that the person is not worth paying any more, allow him/her to go and find out more capable employee.
Rotation should be welcomed. Many a time new comers give better out put. I think once the management becomes rational and liberal, there will be a possibility of less and less such fraud cases.
Sharad Shah
From India, Ahmadabad
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Problem is not of one person getting job on producing fake documents. The real problem is the adamant attitude of management and lowering down the moral and values in real life. The very teaching of the parents/ teachers to stand first, to grab maximum, to exploit every thing leads to this situation. Life has become a race, a war. And everything is fare is the bottom line of today’s life.
You know, such case are increasing day by day and shall increase much rapidly if we do not realize the root causes. Treating the leaves will not improve the situation.
Be little human, when you are dealing with a human. If someone is willing to leave the job, why do you create so much hindrances in his/her progress? Can't you say goodbye with all good wishes and love?
And if you think that the employee is worth retaining, offer him/her better package so that both, the company and the employee will satisfy fully. And if you think that the person is not worth paying any more, allow him/her to go and find out more capable employee.
Rotation should be welcomed. Many a time new comers give better out put. I think once the management becomes rational and liberal, there will be a possibility of less and less such fraud cases.
Sharad Shah
From India, Ahmadabad
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Dear Trinity,
There may be a debate on this, but my question is: did that candidate inform, during the time of the interview, about his notice period with his employer? If yes, and then he was asked to join before his notice period is over, then there is no need to fire him. However, if he did not, he must be asked to leave. If a person can forge his relieving documents, he can actually forge anything because it shows his mindset.
Thank you.
From India, Gurgaon
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There may be a debate on this, but my question is: did that candidate inform, during the time of the interview, about his notice period with his employer? If yes, and then he was asked to join before his notice period is over, then there is no need to fire him. However, if he did not, he must be asked to leave. If a person can forge his relieving documents, he can actually forge anything because it shows his mindset.
Thank you.
From India, Gurgaon
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Dear Trinity,
If the employee is a WORTHY CANDIDATE, put him on the Muster Roles. Otherwise, warn him gently not to commit such mistakes.
In the case of a Relieving Letter to be issued by the Employer, I had a problem with my ex-employer even though I gave two months' notice of resignation. He wanted me to train the newly joined raw guy, and then only he would give the RL. I rejected his foolish request and warned of complaining to TV9 about his behavior with me. As a result, he gave me the RL by the evening of that day.
COME ON, GUYS! WE ARE LIVING IN OUR COUNTRY, PERFORMING OUR DUTIES AS EMPLOYEES, AND PAYING TAXES TO THE GOVERNMENT. WE ARE NOT SLAVES. COME ON |||| DARE, RAISE YOUR VOICE, UNLESS YOU ARE NOT AT FAULT.
Regards, Sriman Bharathiyudu
From India, Hyderabad
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If the employee is a WORTHY CANDIDATE, put him on the Muster Roles. Otherwise, warn him gently not to commit such mistakes.
In the case of a Relieving Letter to be issued by the Employer, I had a problem with my ex-employer even though I gave two months' notice of resignation. He wanted me to train the newly joined raw guy, and then only he would give the RL. I rejected his foolish request and warned of complaining to TV9 about his behavior with me. As a result, he gave me the RL by the evening of that day.
COME ON, GUYS! WE ARE LIVING IN OUR COUNTRY, PERFORMING OUR DUTIES AS EMPLOYEES, AND PAYING TAXES TO THE GOVERNMENT. WE ARE NOT SLAVES. COME ON |||| DARE, RAISE YOUR VOICE, UNLESS YOU ARE NOT AT FAULT.
Regards, Sriman Bharathiyudu
From India, Hyderabad
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Hi Sriman,
I faced a problem in one of my previous companies - the notice period was 30 days, which I gave. However, the company stated that they needed to initiate recruitment, and it became my responsibility to train the new hire before they would relieve me. As I mentioned in another discussion, I ended up training the new hire (a woman) for three months. During this time, I had to start looking for a new job as the offer I had received had expired.
There is discussion among people about forgery and lawsuits, but what about the attitude of not relieving an employee by the deadline? It is a significant concern.
In any case, I believe Trinity's company made the right decision by terminating the female employee.
From India, Madras
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I faced a problem in one of my previous companies - the notice period was 30 days, which I gave. However, the company stated that they needed to initiate recruitment, and it became my responsibility to train the new hire before they would relieve me. As I mentioned in another discussion, I ended up training the new hire (a woman) for three months. During this time, I had to start looking for a new job as the offer I had received had expired.
There is discussion among people about forgery and lawsuits, but what about the attitude of not relieving an employee by the deadline? It is a significant concern.
In any case, I believe Trinity's company made the right decision by terminating the female employee.
From India, Madras
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Hi Friends,
Before you make any decision, you should have proper documents showing his submission of the fake document at the time of his joining. So first, you should write a reference check letter to his previous employer and need to track the performance of the person. Now, your decision will depend on the reference check. If he is hardworking and a smart performer, you can give him a chance. Before you fire him, just keep in mind that you might have forced him to join your company as early as possible, which could be the reason for his submission of fake certificates.
Regards,
Prakash Bhutaiya
From India, Mumbai
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Before you make any decision, you should have proper documents showing his submission of the fake document at the time of his joining. So first, you should write a reference check letter to his previous employer and need to track the performance of the person. Now, your decision will depend on the reference check. If he is hardworking and a smart performer, you can give him a chance. Before you fire him, just keep in mind that you might have forced him to join your company as early as possible, which could be the reason for his submission of fake certificates.
Regards,
Prakash Bhutaiya
From India, Mumbai
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First of all, this is a matter of integrity; management is to decide. Employers are in a hurry when deciding the date of joining (DOJ) without understanding the candidate's relieving date from his/her current employer. The candidate should be given sufficient time to come back with the relieving date. If there is a problem with the candidate's relieving, advise him to pay the necessary notice period amount and then join. Your employer can buy time if the candidate joining is important and seek proper relieving; this is a common practice in the industry.
I strongly discourage this kind of activity. He/she should be shown the door. It should be communicated to all employees that the company discourages and punishes such wrongdoing.
From India, Hyderabad
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I strongly discourage this kind of activity. He/she should be shown the door. It should be communicated to all employees that the company discourages and punishes such wrongdoing.
From India, Hyderabad
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Hello Trinity, it seems like you have encountered a dilemma. Possibly, the first thing to consider is having a meeting with the associate and ask them why they provided you the information the way they did. They might have justification. However, it is good to remember that the best indication of future performance is past performance. I believe in second chances. Sometimes your gut will be the best indicator as to which path to take. Good luck.
Dr. Marc
PS 63:7
From United States, Calhoun
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Dr. Marc
PS 63:7
From United States, Calhoun
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Dear All,
I have gone through the comments and opinions of all on the subject of fake documents and papers connected with employment.
Having conducted antecedent verification for 5 years for hundreds of employees pre and post-employment, I have come across cases involving forgery, criminal offenses, and misappropriation of company or customer money. It is terribly shocking to find that the contents of the stated profile and the actual facts in the resume mismatch in many instances. As an HR consultant and practitioner, it is my duty to analyze the full profile of the candidates regarding employment, education, and lifestyle, etc. We also recommend different alternatives to the client based on the findings in our verification process.
Our recommendations will be along the following lines:
1. Whether his/her attitude towards customers, colleagues, and superiors is appropriate.
2. The consistency of career breaks or progress in the relevant industry or otherwise.
3. Money handling or integrity in business and with customers.
4. The originality of the documents.
5. His/her fitment in light of the background.
The HR chief of the client typically decides the importance of the position or role of the new employee vis-a-vis HR requirements. If involved in fake or forgery of documents, the individual is counseled with relevant details, and the concerned employee is given a severe warning with a clear move by the company. The severity of the punishment or decision will depend on the position or requirement of the Human capital.
As a consultant, we recommend parting ways with the concerned employee if found and proven to have engaged in the above acts. While personally, we may not prefer drastic actions such as termination, we should act above board as we represent the larger interests of the company.
Thanks and regards.
V. Rangarajan.
From India, Pune
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I have gone through the comments and opinions of all on the subject of fake documents and papers connected with employment.
Having conducted antecedent verification for 5 years for hundreds of employees pre and post-employment, I have come across cases involving forgery, criminal offenses, and misappropriation of company or customer money. It is terribly shocking to find that the contents of the stated profile and the actual facts in the resume mismatch in many instances. As an HR consultant and practitioner, it is my duty to analyze the full profile of the candidates regarding employment, education, and lifestyle, etc. We also recommend different alternatives to the client based on the findings in our verification process.
Our recommendations will be along the following lines:
1. Whether his/her attitude towards customers, colleagues, and superiors is appropriate.
2. The consistency of career breaks or progress in the relevant industry or otherwise.
3. Money handling or integrity in business and with customers.
4. The originality of the documents.
5. His/her fitment in light of the background.
The HR chief of the client typically decides the importance of the position or role of the new employee vis-a-vis HR requirements. If involved in fake or forgery of documents, the individual is counseled with relevant details, and the concerned employee is given a severe warning with a clear move by the company. The severity of the punishment or decision will depend on the position or requirement of the Human capital.
As a consultant, we recommend parting ways with the concerned employee if found and proven to have engaged in the above acts. While personally, we may not prefer drastic actions such as termination, we should act above board as we represent the larger interests of the company.
Thanks and regards.
V. Rangarajan.
From India, Pune
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I would not like to have on board a person who has entered the organization on a false note. It does not speak well of the concerned person.
I would have a private chat with him, get him to admit the forgery he has committed, and ask him to resign and leave.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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I would have a private chat with him, get him to admit the forgery he has committed, and ask him to resign and leave.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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Forging is an offense. However, if the employee has proof of submitting the resignation letter as per agreed terms, then the HR fraternity should not insist on a relieving order. In many companies, problems are created by HR people (For some, blood may boil). I am sorry, but be fair while making rules.
If sufficient proof is available for submitting the resignation letter with the stipulated notice period, then take a written apology for forging a document and allow him to continue in the job. However, the whole operation should be done very confidentially. If it leaks out, the concerned individual will leave the company soon.
From India, Bangalore
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If sufficient proof is available for submitting the resignation letter with the stipulated notice period, then take a written apology for forging a document and allow him to continue in the job. However, the whole operation should be done very confidentially. If it leaks out, the concerned individual will leave the company soon.
From India, Bangalore
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Don't analyze the problem from the employer or HR perspective. What are the reasons for verifying docs by a third party? Definitely, your company has a policy regarding employee hiring and firing. Stick to it in letter and spirit. Don't unnecessarily get into moral and other issues that cannot be justified in all cases. Finally, leave it to the deciding authority with your impartial comments.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Hi Trinity,
In case you let this guy continue with your company, it will send a very negative message to the market that your company is not acting on issues of receiving fake letters. This is a breach of trust, and no relation - either personal or professional - will stand strong if there is no trust that exists. Even if you send a strong warning, every time you see him or hear his name, this episode of "Submitting fake letters" will be flashed in your mind.
How have you handled such cases before? If this is treated as an exception, how will you justify your actions to any further cases such as these?
In my opinion, you must ask him to leave. It sends a strong message that your company does not tolerate such issues. Remember the "Reinforcement theory of Motivation" - Behavior is a function of its consequences. If you let him go with a warning, there is no guarantee that he will not repeat the same later... maybe with a different employer...
In case he had walked into your company with only a copy of the resignation mail and the chain mail following the same (if any), you could still have accepted him simply because your company wanted this guy to join early - I am sure you would not have waited for him to complete his full 2-month notice period and then join you.
Cheers... Vinay
From India, New Delhi
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In case you let this guy continue with your company, it will send a very negative message to the market that your company is not acting on issues of receiving fake letters. This is a breach of trust, and no relation - either personal or professional - will stand strong if there is no trust that exists. Even if you send a strong warning, every time you see him or hear his name, this episode of "Submitting fake letters" will be flashed in your mind.
How have you handled such cases before? If this is treated as an exception, how will you justify your actions to any further cases such as these?
In my opinion, you must ask him to leave. It sends a strong message that your company does not tolerate such issues. Remember the "Reinforcement theory of Motivation" - Behavior is a function of its consequences. If you let him go with a warning, there is no guarantee that he will not repeat the same later... maybe with a different employer...
In case he had walked into your company with only a copy of the resignation mail and the chain mail following the same (if any), you could still have accepted him simply because your company wanted this guy to join early - I am sure you would not have waited for him to complete his full 2-month notice period and then join you.
Cheers... Vinay
From India, New Delhi
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This is common in the IT industry. Why blame the poor guys/gals? Companies themselves manipulate resumes to secure projects from clients and win orders. I have come across big MNC's doing it. So, what harm have these poor people done? Try to judge their work and evaluate their performance. Provide the necessary knowledge transfer when required. When people sincerely ask for an opportunity, especially as fresher, they request experience even though they have good working knowledge.
So, the prospective organizations are to be blamed for indirectly creating these kinds of situations.
From India, Hyderabad
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So, the prospective organizations are to be blamed for indirectly creating these kinds of situations.
From India, Hyderabad
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My dear Trinity Morpheus
Pardon my late response.
For the past few days I have just been reading all the posts in your thread.
I feel upset for a number of reasons.
First of all, you state your proposed line of action, thus :
"Now - I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediated effect for "Forging employment document". "
then, you seek others' opinion :
"Would like to understand your view on the same."
(As if you would really understand or care), because everytime someone offers a contradicting view, you immediately run a steam-roller over it, and keep justifying your line of action.
What for do you ask other's opinion, then ?
In fact, you went ahead with what you intended to do and annexed a copy of the Termination Order, many times, as if to display your drafting skills (after having sought assistance in drafting an order). Or perhaps to exhibit your fairness - like Timur Lane (or was it Ghenghiz Khan) who showed kindness to a lady by taking out her kid from a ditch - by skewering the little infant on his long spear.
My dear friend - could not you have simply asked her for a resignation letter, and then accepted it ?
Like you may be doing to many 'innocents' (those who have not committed "such heinous" crime) when you 'downsize' your company ??
Pardon me, if you feel hurt. Maybe I am very ignorant and foolish on such issues (and also lack "the killing instinct").
But, you my friend, are the police, judge, jury and executioner. You are also an evangelist on 'corporate ethics' and God's angel of virgin purity. So many roles to play - More than Priyanka Chopra in her latest flick !!!
"A company such as ours has an obligation to to adhere to the most exacting standards of ......."
" .... protection of GamCom IT Services Pvt Ltd’s legal interests and sound reputation..."
Nice n Sweet words !!
How I wish these words have come a few months earlier !!
Haven't some IT companies been indicted by world bodies for adopting unfair/unethical means to promote their business; to secure orders ??
If I have my facts right, was not there a VERY big Indian IT company with an equally charismatic Chief, who is cooling his heels somewhere in forced confinement by the government ??
What it means is - IT Companies can get way with Ethics, but their employees must stick to the stringest of Ethics. "Do what I say, don't do what I do" !!!
Whether a minor document like the Relieving letter (and not the CV, Educational Qualifications documents, Experience letters etc which are of major importance) is a "forgery" or a "fake" ?
Hope you understand the difference.
It is quite possible that HR person of her previous organization have helped her, "I will try to help you by giving you a Relieving Order at my own risk. but if there is a problem, I will deny that it has ever been issued." The grateful ex-colleague would say, "Trust me, Sir. I shall never put you into trouble for my sake. If caught, I will confess that I forged it. Thank you so much, Sir !!" I am sure, many of my friends would agree that it is a scenario too familiar to people who have been long in this profession.
Moreover, in case of forgeries, when there is no large pecuniary or other substantial loss involved, prosecution is unreasonable and never resorted to.
I don't know if you are aware of this or not ?
Maybe you have not come across any schoolboy who produced a 'forged' report card at home. Parents do not call for criminal action or expel them from the house.
Perhaps, none of your employees ever reported 'sick' falsely; or produced a 'false medical report' when they needed leave badly and management was not willing to extend or grant leave.
I think all those pilots, declaring themselves "sick" and producing 'fake' medical sertificates should immediately be put inside the jail ... to give company to IT barons 8) who never do anything 'wrong'.
The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle <link updated to site home> ( Search On Cite | Search On Google )
The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Business | Deposits reek of forgery
I remember the words of someone, some centuries earlier; "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
I guess, you will claim that your company meets the compliances of Law, including those under the companies Act, Taxation and Labour laws, files all the hundreds of returns in time, maintains and updates those hundreds of Registers required by law, pays the hundreds of challans under various govt. provision WITHIN TIME and CORRECTLY. You would expect me to believe you. Ask any good consultant (or related government authority) and he will admit that it is practically impossible to comply with all the rules and regulations. Even PSU can not comply perfectly with Entry Taxes (state govt), Professional taxes (state Govt), Excise, IT, CPF, CST, VAT etc. Quite often, penalties are charged and paid, but, none is branded as 'thief.'
Anyway, it is your company, it is your take. You decide and follow-up with whatever you wish. You need not accept anyone's opinion - as you had done in your earlier posts.
But if you had been genuinely seeking opinion, then I have given you mine - honest, frank and candid.
(Please Note : My above opinions, are restricted to the issue under discussion; and in no way reflect my personal opinion or bias against you. :icon1:)
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Pardon my late response.
For the past few days I have just been reading all the posts in your thread.
I feel upset for a number of reasons.
First of all, you state your proposed line of action, thus :
"Now - I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediated effect for "Forging employment document". "
then, you seek others' opinion :
"Would like to understand your view on the same."
(As if you would really understand or care), because everytime someone offers a contradicting view, you immediately run a steam-roller over it, and keep justifying your line of action.
What for do you ask other's opinion, then ?
In fact, you went ahead with what you intended to do and annexed a copy of the Termination Order, many times, as if to display your drafting skills (after having sought assistance in drafting an order). Or perhaps to exhibit your fairness - like Timur Lane (or was it Ghenghiz Khan) who showed kindness to a lady by taking out her kid from a ditch - by skewering the little infant on his long spear.
My dear friend - could not you have simply asked her for a resignation letter, and then accepted it ?
Like you may be doing to many 'innocents' (those who have not committed "such heinous" crime) when you 'downsize' your company ??
Pardon me, if you feel hurt. Maybe I am very ignorant and foolish on such issues (and also lack "the killing instinct").
But, you my friend, are the police, judge, jury and executioner. You are also an evangelist on 'corporate ethics' and God's angel of virgin purity. So many roles to play - More than Priyanka Chopra in her latest flick !!!
"A company such as ours has an obligation to to adhere to the most exacting standards of ......."
" .... protection of GamCom IT Services Pvt Ltd’s legal interests and sound reputation..."
Nice n Sweet words !!
How I wish these words have come a few months earlier !!
Haven't some IT companies been indicted by world bodies for adopting unfair/unethical means to promote their business; to secure orders ??
If I have my facts right, was not there a VERY big Indian IT company with an equally charismatic Chief, who is cooling his heels somewhere in forced confinement by the government ??
What it means is - IT Companies can get way with Ethics, but their employees must stick to the stringest of Ethics. "Do what I say, don't do what I do" !!!
Whether a minor document like the Relieving letter (and not the CV, Educational Qualifications documents, Experience letters etc which are of major importance) is a "forgery" or a "fake" ?
Hope you understand the difference.
It is quite possible that HR person of her previous organization have helped her, "I will try to help you by giving you a Relieving Order at my own risk. but if there is a problem, I will deny that it has ever been issued." The grateful ex-colleague would say, "Trust me, Sir. I shall never put you into trouble for my sake. If caught, I will confess that I forged it. Thank you so much, Sir !!" I am sure, many of my friends would agree that it is a scenario too familiar to people who have been long in this profession.
Moreover, in case of forgeries, when there is no large pecuniary or other substantial loss involved, prosecution is unreasonable and never resorted to.
I don't know if you are aware of this or not ?
Maybe you have not come across any schoolboy who produced a 'forged' report card at home. Parents do not call for criminal action or expel them from the house.
Perhaps, none of your employees ever reported 'sick' falsely; or produced a 'false medical report' when they needed leave badly and management was not willing to extend or grant leave.
I think all those pilots, declaring themselves "sick" and producing 'fake' medical sertificates should immediately be put inside the jail ... to give company to IT barons 8) who never do anything 'wrong'.
The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle <link updated to site home> ( Search On Cite | Search On Google )
The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Business | Deposits reek of forgery
I remember the words of someone, some centuries earlier; "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
I guess, you will claim that your company meets the compliances of Law, including those under the companies Act, Taxation and Labour laws, files all the hundreds of returns in time, maintains and updates those hundreds of Registers required by law, pays the hundreds of challans under various govt. provision WITHIN TIME and CORRECTLY. You would expect me to believe you. Ask any good consultant (or related government authority) and he will admit that it is practically impossible to comply with all the rules and regulations. Even PSU can not comply perfectly with Entry Taxes (state govt), Professional taxes (state Govt), Excise, IT, CPF, CST, VAT etc. Quite often, penalties are charged and paid, but, none is branded as 'thief.'
Anyway, it is your company, it is your take. You decide and follow-up with whatever you wish. You need not accept anyone's opinion - as you had done in your earlier posts.
But if you had been genuinely seeking opinion, then I have given you mine - honest, frank and candid.
(Please Note : My above opinions, are restricted to the issue under discussion; and in no way reflect my personal opinion or bias against you. :icon1:)
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear all participants of this thread,
I really laughed out loud after reading most of the responses here. I am new to citeHR and have been an NRI for the last 7+ years. I am originally from East Africa.
Most of the threads on this site are related to the Indian HR and Admin system, isn't it?
Okay, why did I want to laugh out loud? In my 7+ years, everything we consider in a candidate is decided within the first 5-7 minutes of the interview with him/her.
Normally, when an Indian is called for an interview, he/she is presented with a bunch of certificates; who cares?
We don't want to know how much he/she earned from another company. Our company offers a package according to his/her efficiency. We never, NEVER delve into previous companies to obtain salary details!
We don't ask for any certificates or documents from the candidate except a copy of the resume. One or two questions related to his 'job responsibilities' show how efficient he/she is! (We know almost all universities' fake certificates are available in the Middle East job market).
Any reputable company has a specific salary package for a particular position. Even if you negotiate or are well-qualified, you cannot be offered more than that.
After all, a six-month probation period is enough to determine his/her efficiency!
All we know is: Papers never make a good candidate!
There are a lot of other things....M Sadique
From Djibouti
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I really laughed out loud after reading most of the responses here. I am new to citeHR and have been an NRI for the last 7+ years. I am originally from East Africa.
Most of the threads on this site are related to the Indian HR and Admin system, isn't it?
Okay, why did I want to laugh out loud? In my 7+ years, everything we consider in a candidate is decided within the first 5-7 minutes of the interview with him/her.
Normally, when an Indian is called for an interview, he/she is presented with a bunch of certificates; who cares?
We don't want to know how much he/she earned from another company. Our company offers a package according to his/her efficiency. We never, NEVER delve into previous companies to obtain salary details!
We don't ask for any certificates or documents from the candidate except a copy of the resume. One or two questions related to his 'job responsibilities' show how efficient he/she is! (We know almost all universities' fake certificates are available in the Middle East job market).
Any reputable company has a specific salary package for a particular position. Even if you negotiate or are well-qualified, you cannot be offered more than that.
After all, a six-month probation period is enough to determine his/her efficiency!
All we know is: Papers never make a good candidate!
There are a lot of other things....M Sadique
From Djibouti
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Dear Ash,
I hope you are fine. What you say, all this is perfectly okay. I also agree with your view. But my dear friend, can you tell me if all these good words (attitude, integrity, commitment, etc.) are only applicable to employees and not to the employers? Many other friends have already accepted in this post that employers are not doing the right thing with their employees.
If a criminal is born in our society, we all, the 'sofo' guys/gals, point out that the person is a criminal. But we never try to find out who made them a criminal. In my personal view, if everything is going fine, no one is cheating.
Arup
From India, Patna
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I hope you are fine. What you say, all this is perfectly okay. I also agree with your view. But my dear friend, can you tell me if all these good words (attitude, integrity, commitment, etc.) are only applicable to employees and not to the employers? Many other friends have already accepted in this post that employers are not doing the right thing with their employees.
If a criminal is born in our society, we all, the 'sofo' guys/gals, point out that the person is a criminal. But we never try to find out who made them a criminal. In my personal view, if everything is going fine, no one is cheating.
Arup
From India, Patna
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Dear Friend,
It is quite common that companies do not provide an employee leaving the organization with a relieving letter.
It is also very common that appointment letters are not given to employees after they join a company in their employment.
Also, it is very often that you find an acceptance letter not being issued to an employee upon submitting his resignation.
It is also not uncommon for the company to opt to waive off the notice period given by the employee, clearly mentioned in his/her resignation letter, and also not pay salary in lieu of such notice.
In the present case, the best option would have been:
1. Tell your new employer that you have resigned from the employment of your previous employer. Submit a copy of your resignation letter. In case the new employer insists, you could even submit a notarized affidavit to support the fact of your resignation. A better option would be (in case your resignation has not been accepted/received) to send a copy of the resignation letter by Registered A Post. Retain the receipt with you for future use.
2. Tell your new employer that you have not received your relieving letter despite your best efforts. It is best to be truthful and upfront about such sensitive matters. Falsifying employment records reflects poorly on your integrity and honesty. It will only bring you grief.
I am sure a reasonable HR person, when presented with true facts, will take a favorable stance and most likely will not deny you a fair opportunity.
Recently, I too was confronted with a similar case. However, the new employee did not falsify his employment record and came clean. He was honest about the fact that:
1. He had resigned. He gave me a copy of his resignation letter and copies of emails of his follow-up to have the same accepted.
2. The previous employer was not inclined to relieve him formally.
3. I helped him and interacted with his previous employer, and impressed upon him that he cannot force anyone to continue in his employment, that an employee has a constitutional right to resign from his employment in any company as per the terms of his appointment/contract.
Eventually, his dues were settled, and he got his relieving letter.
All is well that ends well.
Cheers!!!
Vasant Nair
Best Wishes,
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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It is quite common that companies do not provide an employee leaving the organization with a relieving letter.
It is also very common that appointment letters are not given to employees after they join a company in their employment.
Also, it is very often that you find an acceptance letter not being issued to an employee upon submitting his resignation.
It is also not uncommon for the company to opt to waive off the notice period given by the employee, clearly mentioned in his/her resignation letter, and also not pay salary in lieu of such notice.
In the present case, the best option would have been:
1. Tell your new employer that you have resigned from the employment of your previous employer. Submit a copy of your resignation letter. In case the new employer insists, you could even submit a notarized affidavit to support the fact of your resignation. A better option would be (in case your resignation has not been accepted/received) to send a copy of the resignation letter by Registered A Post. Retain the receipt with you for future use.
2. Tell your new employer that you have not received your relieving letter despite your best efforts. It is best to be truthful and upfront about such sensitive matters. Falsifying employment records reflects poorly on your integrity and honesty. It will only bring you grief.
I am sure a reasonable HR person, when presented with true facts, will take a favorable stance and most likely will not deny you a fair opportunity.
Recently, I too was confronted with a similar case. However, the new employee did not falsify his employment record and came clean. He was honest about the fact that:
1. He had resigned. He gave me a copy of his resignation letter and copies of emails of his follow-up to have the same accepted.
2. The previous employer was not inclined to relieve him formally.
3. I helped him and interacted with his previous employer, and impressed upon him that he cannot force anyone to continue in his employment, that an employee has a constitutional right to resign from his employment in any company as per the terms of his appointment/contract.
Eventually, his dues were settled, and he got his relieving letter.
All is well that ends well.
Cheers!!!
Vasant Nair
Best Wishes,
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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The issue here is one of dishonesty leading to disrespect. Did the employee advise that he/she needed 2 months to bring closure to the current job? Being straightforward brings more benefits in the long run. The fact that one even thinks of forging documents from one's previous employer points to desperation and a lack of emotional intelligence. It also shows that one is ignorant of the procedures used for the recruitment process (background checks, etc.) and so took a chance. This action gives insight into the character of the person.
Whatever the decision of the company, full disclosure of the matter must take place and also gives the offender an opportunity to review his/her personal values. In addition, the fact that this person was employed with a reputable firm suggests that he/she might have been able to stand on their own worth and speak the truth to you, but chose to resort to forgery.
Kathleen M
From Trinidad and Tobago, Port-of-spain
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Whatever the decision of the company, full disclosure of the matter must take place and also gives the offender an opportunity to review his/her personal values. In addition, the fact that this person was employed with a reputable firm suggests that he/she might have been able to stand on their own worth and speak the truth to you, but chose to resort to forgery.
Kathleen M
From Trinidad and Tobago, Port-of-spain
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Some of the latest emails are too good. I want HR people to understand all these ideas; they are simple. In the USA, I was told people do not ask age or even gender for appointments. Here we need to produce the salary proofs; some companies pay in black. Where to go for proof... I am happy; some emails are eye-openers. Great.
Regards, Suresh
From India, Bangalore
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Regards, Suresh
From India, Bangalore
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I agree with Ramesh. If only the relieving letter is fake, it does not make sense to dismiss a perfectly good employee. This action not only puts the employee in a difficult situation but also creates problems for yourself. You will have to redo the entire recruitment cycle for this position. Evaluate his suitability and stability. If he is a valuable asset, I believe you should retain him. However, make sure to issue a memo and put him on notice. The employee should understand that the company upholds a strict ethical code but is willing to make an exception this one time ONLY.
From India
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From India
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Dear Archana,
Yes, it is obvious that you are indeed confused!!!
The facts stated by you are:
1. One of your employees resigned, gave the prescribed one month's Notice Period, took her current month's salary and has since then not been coming to work due to some personal problems.
2. Your Boss has sent a Notice to her.
3. Your Boss wants you to contact her and ask her to come and serve out her Notice Period, otherwise, he will send her another Notice.
So, you are confused!!!!
Dear child, your Boss has already sent her a Notice. Now, which Notice are you talking about, that your Boss is threatening to issue/send?
Well, under these circumstances, you will have to send her a Notice, impressing upon her to comply with her moral obligation of serving out the prescribed One Month's Notice before being relieved from the organization.
If she does not respond to such Notices, well, the only other option you have is to initiate legal action against her. The question you will have to ask yourself is... "Is the effort worth it?" Go ahead with Legal Action if your answer is YES. I would not recommend such action, though.
The practical solution would be to hold her Full & Final Settlement. Deduct one month's salary in lieu of the Notice Period when you decide to prepare her Full & Final Settlement. If she owes any money to the company, send her a letter asking her to deposit the amount.
Cheers!!!
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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Yes, it is obvious that you are indeed confused!!!
The facts stated by you are:
1. One of your employees resigned, gave the prescribed one month's Notice Period, took her current month's salary and has since then not been coming to work due to some personal problems.
2. Your Boss has sent a Notice to her.
3. Your Boss wants you to contact her and ask her to come and serve out her Notice Period, otherwise, he will send her another Notice.
So, you are confused!!!!
Dear child, your Boss has already sent her a Notice. Now, which Notice are you talking about, that your Boss is threatening to issue/send?
Well, under these circumstances, you will have to send her a Notice, impressing upon her to comply with her moral obligation of serving out the prescribed One Month's Notice before being relieved from the organization.
If she does not respond to such Notices, well, the only other option you have is to initiate legal action against her. The question you will have to ask yourself is... "Is the effort worth it?" Go ahead with Legal Action if your answer is YES. I would not recommend such action, though.
The practical solution would be to hold her Full & Final Settlement. Deduct one month's salary in lieu of the Notice Period when you decide to prepare her Full & Final Settlement. If she owes any money to the company, send her a letter asking her to deposit the amount.
Cheers!!!
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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You were told? Kindly confirm if you are sure.
In the US, they don't ask age but ask the birth date and year. They don't ask gender because they feel everyone, irrespective of gender, has the right to work. In the US, they will have to produce the proofs and all information including whether they were arrested in the last few years on the basis of crime, sex, drunk driving, or even exceeding the speed limit. They are also asked if they were in jail for any specific period. They are also asked if at any point they were terminated on the basis of disciplinary grounds.
(I have worked for a few Fortune 100 recruitment needs and have been trained by their Hiring Manager too :-) so... don't ever think that recruiting is a simple business in the US - they spend a lot on that, honey!)
"DON'T TALK ALL WHAT YOU HEAR"
From India, Madras
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In the US, they don't ask age but ask the birth date and year. They don't ask gender because they feel everyone, irrespective of gender, has the right to work. In the US, they will have to produce the proofs and all information including whether they were arrested in the last few years on the basis of crime, sex, drunk driving, or even exceeding the speed limit. They are also asked if they were in jail for any specific period. They are also asked if at any point they were terminated on the basis of disciplinary grounds.
(I have worked for a few Fortune 100 recruitment needs and have been trained by their Hiring Manager too :-) so... don't ever think that recruiting is a simple business in the US - they spend a lot on that, honey!)
"DON'T TALK ALL WHAT YOU HEAR"
From India, Madras
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Had been wanting to revert for a long time, but was hooked up.
My response is as under:
Regards,
Trinity- Morpheus
[QUOTE=Raj Kumar Hansdah;889935]
My dear Trinity Morpheus,
Pardon my late response. For the past few days, I have just been reading all the posts in your thread. I feel upset for a number of reasons. First of all, you state your proposed line of action as follows: "Now - I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediate effect for 'Forging employment document'." Then, you seek others' opinion: "Would like to understand your view on the same." (As if you would really understand or care), because every time someone offers a contradicting view, you immediately run a steam-roller over it and keep justifying your line of action. What for do you ask others' opinion, then?
RAJ- I gave my opinion and asked for views from different quarters (like you) and did a reality check on my perceptions. None of the views expressed did at any point suggest any valid reason for not sacking that particular employee. Secondly, an action had to be initiated post the discovery of submitting fraudulent docs. I hope you would understand that a breach is a breach and has to be dealt with without any delay whatsoever.
In fact, you went ahead with what you intended to do and annexed a copy of the Termination Order many times, as if to display your drafting skills (after having sought assistance in drafting an order). Or perhaps to exhibit your fairness - like Timur Lane (or was it Genghis Khan) who showed kindness to a lady by taking out her kid from a ditch - by skewering the little infant on his long spear.
RAJ - What did you expect me to do? Sleep over the issue until some sensible HR pops in and conveys his view in a more erudite fashion? I was still receiving comments when I had posted my response about the decision - I posted the same again so that people understand the decision has been taken. AND BTW - If you are comparing me to Genghis Khan, I take it as a compliment.
My dear friend, could you not have simply asked her for a resignation letter, and then accepted it? Like you may be doing to many 'innocents' (those who have not committed "such heinous" crime) when you 'downsize' your company??
RAJ- Yes, I agree with this particular point of yours. I could have asked for resignation. But then I would have let a 'practice' (fraudulent) go unpunished. You think from an individual perspective, which I sincerely appreciate, but when you are manning a crowd, you have to be stern and stick to your judgments. If I let this incident pass, others might just be waiting around the corner to happen. Should I let these incidents pass and convey to the employees that we are lenient? You had at some point conveyed in your previous posts that you work for an org with more than 1000 employees. Man, do you really look at them individually and understand their issues and concerns???? It's a difficult decision to take - when sacking an employee, and before I did that I have run queries a 1000 times over before concluding at a point (which includes posts by fellow HR on my query over this site).
Pardon me if you feel hurt. Maybe I am very ignorant and foolish on such issues (and also lack 'the killing instinct').
But you, my friend, are the police, judge, jury, and executioner. You are also an evangelist on 'corporate ethics' and God's angel of virgin purity. So many roles to play - more than Priyanka Chopra in her latest flick!
"A company such as ours has an obligation to adhere to the most exacting standards of...." "....protection of ABC's legal interests and sound reputation...."
Nice and sweet words! How I wish these words had come a few months earlier!
RAJ- Please explain what you meant by this?
Haven't some IT companies been indicted by world bodies for adopting unfair/unethical means to promote their business; to secure orders? If I have my facts right, was not there a VERY big Indian IT company with an equally charismatic Chief, who is cooling his heels somewhere in forced confinement by the government??
RAJ- It's very unfortunate at times when I see a reply like this from individuals like you who are good at heart but tend to generalize and compare a small issue to a bigger one. What makes you think that every org is the way Satyam is? If your hypothesis above is correct then, we Indians are snake charmers and not otherwise. Look at the facts before doing a comparison. I would compete with your 'this' by giving an example - What if a check of a nominal amount say 500/- bounces. What happens? The bank still levies a bounce charge, isn't it? Does it at that point of time think that the issuer might be financially sick? If banks started working on an individual premise of 'individual being financially sick', don't you think that checks would hold no value? Look at the fact that, if you let one pass, others will too pass through the loophole. Look at the bigger picture; we are mere dots among millions. And the reason why we are recruited at higher positions is basically for this instinct to differentiate and take a decision (which would be hard). We are not recruited to manage an individual employee, but a group of employees. You have to think twice when making a decision for the group. With one individual, you play mother, but when it comes to a group, you have to play father.
What it means is - IT Companies can get away with Ethics, but their employees must stick to the stringent of Ethics. "Do what I say, don't do what I do"!
RAJ- The issue is different, please stick to the same.
Whether a minor document like the Relieving letter (and not the CV, Educational Qualifications documents, Experience letters, etc., which are of major importance) is 'a "forgery" or a "fake" '?
RAJ- I don't agree. A forgery is a forgery. I won't budge an inch over here. The employee is not an infant, who could be excused.
Hope you understand the difference. It is quite possible that the HR person of her previous organization helped her, 'I will try to help you by giving you a Relieving Order at my own risk. But if there is a problem, I will deny that it has ever been issued.' The grateful ex-colleague would say, 'Trust me, Sir. I shall never put you into trouble for my sake. If caught, I will confess that I forged it. Thank you so much, Sir!!' I am sure many of my friends would agree that it is a scenario too familiar to people who have been long in this profession.
RAJ- I base my decisions on facts and not assumptions. Hard evidence is hard evidence.
Moreover, in case of forgeries, when there is no large pecuniary or other substantial loss involved, prosecution is unreasonable and never resorted to. I don't know if you are aware of this or not?
RAJ- I am very much aware of this. But again, if I set a trend of letting that particular employee pass, she might commit more forgeries in the near future. AND I am not a brahma to predict the future outcomes of a soul. I look at the present and then make my judgments.
Maybe you have not come across any schoolboy who produced a 'forged' report card at home. Parents do not call for criminal action or expel them from the house.
RAJ- Infants/kids are a different cadre. Employees are a different cadre. The kid would also get a bashing either at school or at home if he is discovered. I won't let my kid lie; I would expect him to come forward and say that I haven't scored well or have failed in a particular subject. I would reward his honesty, not otherwise.
Perhaps none of your employees ever reported 'sick' falsely or produced a 'false medical report' when they needed leave badly and management was not willing to extend or grant leave.
RAJ- Happens all the time. Again, we deal by the book. I hope you understand the difference between submitting a fake medical certificate and submitting a fake employment doc. If you can't differentiate, let's leave it here. I don't want to take it further.
I think all those pilots, declaring themselves 'sick' and producing 'fake' medical certificates should immediately be put inside the jail... to give company to IT barons 8) who never do anything 'wrong'.
RAJ- The management is weak at Air India; that's all I would say for this incident only. Trust me, they are coming up with a remedy.
From United Kingdom, London
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My response is as under:
Regards,
Trinity- Morpheus
[QUOTE=Raj Kumar Hansdah;889935]
My dear Trinity Morpheus,
Pardon my late response. For the past few days, I have just been reading all the posts in your thread. I feel upset for a number of reasons. First of all, you state your proposed line of action as follows: "Now - I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediate effect for 'Forging employment document'." Then, you seek others' opinion: "Would like to understand your view on the same." (As if you would really understand or care), because every time someone offers a contradicting view, you immediately run a steam-roller over it and keep justifying your line of action. What for do you ask others' opinion, then?
RAJ- I gave my opinion and asked for views from different quarters (like you) and did a reality check on my perceptions. None of the views expressed did at any point suggest any valid reason for not sacking that particular employee. Secondly, an action had to be initiated post the discovery of submitting fraudulent docs. I hope you would understand that a breach is a breach and has to be dealt with without any delay whatsoever.
In fact, you went ahead with what you intended to do and annexed a copy of the Termination Order many times, as if to display your drafting skills (after having sought assistance in drafting an order). Or perhaps to exhibit your fairness - like Timur Lane (or was it Genghis Khan) who showed kindness to a lady by taking out her kid from a ditch - by skewering the little infant on his long spear.
RAJ - What did you expect me to do? Sleep over the issue until some sensible HR pops in and conveys his view in a more erudite fashion? I was still receiving comments when I had posted my response about the decision - I posted the same again so that people understand the decision has been taken. AND BTW - If you are comparing me to Genghis Khan, I take it as a compliment.
My dear friend, could you not have simply asked her for a resignation letter, and then accepted it? Like you may be doing to many 'innocents' (those who have not committed "such heinous" crime) when you 'downsize' your company??
RAJ- Yes, I agree with this particular point of yours. I could have asked for resignation. But then I would have let a 'practice' (fraudulent) go unpunished. You think from an individual perspective, which I sincerely appreciate, but when you are manning a crowd, you have to be stern and stick to your judgments. If I let this incident pass, others might just be waiting around the corner to happen. Should I let these incidents pass and convey to the employees that we are lenient? You had at some point conveyed in your previous posts that you work for an org with more than 1000 employees. Man, do you really look at them individually and understand their issues and concerns???? It's a difficult decision to take - when sacking an employee, and before I did that I have run queries a 1000 times over before concluding at a point (which includes posts by fellow HR on my query over this site).
Pardon me if you feel hurt. Maybe I am very ignorant and foolish on such issues (and also lack 'the killing instinct').
But you, my friend, are the police, judge, jury, and executioner. You are also an evangelist on 'corporate ethics' and God's angel of virgin purity. So many roles to play - more than Priyanka Chopra in her latest flick!
"A company such as ours has an obligation to adhere to the most exacting standards of...." "....protection of ABC's legal interests and sound reputation...."
Nice and sweet words! How I wish these words had come a few months earlier!
RAJ- Please explain what you meant by this?
Haven't some IT companies been indicted by world bodies for adopting unfair/unethical means to promote their business; to secure orders? If I have my facts right, was not there a VERY big Indian IT company with an equally charismatic Chief, who is cooling his heels somewhere in forced confinement by the government??
RAJ- It's very unfortunate at times when I see a reply like this from individuals like you who are good at heart but tend to generalize and compare a small issue to a bigger one. What makes you think that every org is the way Satyam is? If your hypothesis above is correct then, we Indians are snake charmers and not otherwise. Look at the facts before doing a comparison. I would compete with your 'this' by giving an example - What if a check of a nominal amount say 500/- bounces. What happens? The bank still levies a bounce charge, isn't it? Does it at that point of time think that the issuer might be financially sick? If banks started working on an individual premise of 'individual being financially sick', don't you think that checks would hold no value? Look at the fact that, if you let one pass, others will too pass through the loophole. Look at the bigger picture; we are mere dots among millions. And the reason why we are recruited at higher positions is basically for this instinct to differentiate and take a decision (which would be hard). We are not recruited to manage an individual employee, but a group of employees. You have to think twice when making a decision for the group. With one individual, you play mother, but when it comes to a group, you have to play father.
What it means is - IT Companies can get away with Ethics, but their employees must stick to the stringent of Ethics. "Do what I say, don't do what I do"!
RAJ- The issue is different, please stick to the same.
Whether a minor document like the Relieving letter (and not the CV, Educational Qualifications documents, Experience letters, etc., which are of major importance) is 'a "forgery" or a "fake" '?
RAJ- I don't agree. A forgery is a forgery. I won't budge an inch over here. The employee is not an infant, who could be excused.
Hope you understand the difference. It is quite possible that the HR person of her previous organization helped her, 'I will try to help you by giving you a Relieving Order at my own risk. But if there is a problem, I will deny that it has ever been issued.' The grateful ex-colleague would say, 'Trust me, Sir. I shall never put you into trouble for my sake. If caught, I will confess that I forged it. Thank you so much, Sir!!' I am sure many of my friends would agree that it is a scenario too familiar to people who have been long in this profession.
RAJ- I base my decisions on facts and not assumptions. Hard evidence is hard evidence.
Moreover, in case of forgeries, when there is no large pecuniary or other substantial loss involved, prosecution is unreasonable and never resorted to. I don't know if you are aware of this or not?
RAJ- I am very much aware of this. But again, if I set a trend of letting that particular employee pass, she might commit more forgeries in the near future. AND I am not a brahma to predict the future outcomes of a soul. I look at the present and then make my judgments.
Maybe you have not come across any schoolboy who produced a 'forged' report card at home. Parents do not call for criminal action or expel them from the house.
RAJ- Infants/kids are a different cadre. Employees are a different cadre. The kid would also get a bashing either at school or at home if he is discovered. I won't let my kid lie; I would expect him to come forward and say that I haven't scored well or have failed in a particular subject. I would reward his honesty, not otherwise.
Perhaps none of your employees ever reported 'sick' falsely or produced a 'false medical report' when they needed leave badly and management was not willing to extend or grant leave.
RAJ- Happens all the time. Again, we deal by the book. I hope you understand the difference between submitting a fake medical certificate and submitting a fake employment doc. If you can't differentiate, let's leave it here. I don't want to take it further.
I think all those pilots, declaring themselves 'sick' and producing 'fake' medical certificates should immediately be put inside the jail... to give company to IT barons 8) who never do anything 'wrong'.
RAJ- The management is weak at Air India; that's all I would say for this incident only. Trust me, they are coming up with a remedy.
From United Kingdom, London
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Dear Rajkumar,
I really liked your post. No corporate world is as clean as it seems, especially the Indian companies. They want to hire candidates with a short period, but they expect proper procedures. This is very contradictory.
Employers also exploit employees, not even following simple labor laws. Some employees are victims of their bosses, some are victims of economic conditions, some are victims of their health issues, and some are victims of circumstances.
My view is, if everything depends on your performance and eligibility, then why HR? People are not judging based on it. Either you should follow pre-verification or if you have already hired a candidate and background check is not clear, try to understand the real reason why they did what they did. If the candidate is genuine and did something without the intention of causing harm, we should at least give them a chance based on their performance and eligibility and help rebuild their career. Just think, every employee is the breadwinner for someone. If you terminate them, there is a chance of more misconduct in the future.
If a criminal becomes our minister and makes laws to rule the state/country.
At least giving a chance is a better option for anyone who seems genuine and is a victim of circumstances to rebuild their future and rectify mistakes.
From India, Guwahati
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I really liked your post. No corporate world is as clean as it seems, especially the Indian companies. They want to hire candidates with a short period, but they expect proper procedures. This is very contradictory.
Employers also exploit employees, not even following simple labor laws. Some employees are victims of their bosses, some are victims of economic conditions, some are victims of their health issues, and some are victims of circumstances.
My view is, if everything depends on your performance and eligibility, then why HR? People are not judging based on it. Either you should follow pre-verification or if you have already hired a candidate and background check is not clear, try to understand the real reason why they did what they did. If the candidate is genuine and did something without the intention of causing harm, we should at least give them a chance based on their performance and eligibility and help rebuild their career. Just think, every employee is the breadwinner for someone. If you terminate them, there is a chance of more misconduct in the future.
If a criminal becomes our minister and makes laws to rule the state/country.
At least giving a chance is a better option for anyone who seems genuine and is a victim of circumstances to rebuild their future and rectify mistakes.
From India, Guwahati
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Hi All,
I have a query: what action can be taken if an employee is found misrepresenting his education degree? Has anyone come across this scenario? In case of dismissal, is the employer liable for any notice pay?
Thanks in advance for your help.
S
From India, Mumbai
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I have a query: what action can be taken if an employee is found misrepresenting his education degree? Has anyone come across this scenario? In case of dismissal, is the employer liable for any notice pay?
Thanks in advance for your help.
S
From India, Mumbai
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(Fact Checked)-The employer can dismiss an employee for submitting fake education documents. The employer is not liable for notice pay in such a case. (1 Acknowledge point)
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Termination Policy _Appointment Letter.jpg
CiteHR.AI
(Fact Checked)-The employee should be asked to serve the full notice period as per the agreement. It's important to follow company policies and legal requirements. (1 Acknowledge point)