hi trinity, Chek his credentials with previous employers. Try to know from him the reason behind submitting fake relieving letter of previous employer.
23rd September 2009 From India, Pune
Trinity, you & your organization made the right decision to fire her. Bravo!
Shame on us HR professionals if we condone forgery/theft & unethical practices.
"two wrongs do not make a right"
Integrity is something that no organization should compromise on. Keeping unscrupulous/ unethical/ wrong-doing individuals in an organization promotes an environment for deepseated rot & corruption.
It is the defected value system of tolerance of wrongdoers in India that has led to the widespread corruption in our governments, establishments & other workplaces. We need to start cleaning up this rot for the betterment of our future generations.
And we as HR professionals are at the forefront of this challenge to make India a better place to live & work by ensuring that we do not encourage criminal/unethical behaviour in our homes & workplaces.
Rose S
23rd September 2009 From India, Mumbai
Hi Trinity,
The worst thing what we are facing everyday about employment verification. In our organization candidate joined by submitting fake reliving letters from his previous company but rest of all other documents are perfectly alright in accordance with offer letter, appointment letter and even latest appraisal letter but the mistake what he did was adjusting 10 days in his reliving letter i.e increased 10 working days by changing date, but the candidate was very strong with subject and communication. As per our top management decision we need to remove him and sacked from the services.
My suggestion would be sack him with out any doubt but before find out what kind of resource he is for the project.
Regards
Ramesh
23rd September 2009 From India, Hyderabad
I am too much agree with Mr. Giridhar Alwar, if a person has proved his/her worth then its better for organisation to give him/her opportunity and furher b can issue a warning letter to his/her with this instruction to leave the job without further delay & note that it should not be repeated in future in our organization. after this thing u will that u Motivate the People.
Madhukar
23rd September 2009
As far as my knowledge goes Mr.Ramesh and Mr.Alwar are right, and definitely we are hiring a resource to our organization and not just the relieving letters and appointment letters, so if you think that he suits in for the requirement and all the other things are correct expect the relieving letter, he can be given a chance, issue him a warning letter for the same and keep it in the records or else you can keep him under one months notice and check his performance and other factors.
There is always a second side to the coin!!!! Who knows he might turn out to be best resource for the organization.
Iam clearly confused on one thing when we don't trust our competitors for the business related activities, like investing in a fund, setting up a new branch, or any other strategy that we follow as per the business is concerned then why should we trust them in hiring a best resource for company, they might mislead us with the wrong information too????
23rd September 2009 From India, Hyderabad
Integrity is the primary quality any good employee for any organisation and if he or she is not true to oneself and have the courage to camouflage documents without disclosing the facts, however great he is working for your organisation, he will definitely ditch you. I admire a person who has the courage to tell me that my present employer cannot relieve me due to certain important tasks and I will try my best.
23rd September 2009
Dear Friends;

Problem is not of one person getting job on producing fake documents. The real problem is the adamant attitude of management and lowering down the moral and values in real life. The very teaching of the parents/ teachers to stand first, to grab maximum, to exploit every thing leads to this situation. Life has become a race, a war. And everything is fare is the bottom line of today’s life.

You know, such case are increasing day by day and shall increase much rapidly if we do not realize the root causes. Treating the leaves will not improve the situation.

Be little human, when you are dealing with a human. If someone is willing to leave the job, why do you create so much hindrances in his/her progress? Can't you say goodbye with all good wishes and love?

And if you think that the employee is worth retaining, offer him/her better package so that both, the company and the employee will satisfy fully. And if you think that the person is not worth paying any more, allow him/her to go and find out more capable employee.

Rotation should be welcomed. Many a time new comers give better out put. I think once the management becomes rational and liberal, there will be a possibility of less and less such fraud cases.

Sharad Shah
23rd September 2009 From India, Ahmadabad
Dear Trinity
There may be a debate on this. But my question is did that candidate informed during the time of interview about his notice period with his employer? If yes and then he was asked to join before his notice period is over then no need to fire him. However if did not he must be asked to leave. If a person can forge his reliving dox he can actually forge anything because it shows his mind set.
23rd September 2009 From India, Gurgaon
Dear Trinity
If the employee is a WORTH CANDIDATE put him on the Muster Roles, Other wise warn him gently not to commit such mistakes.
In the case of Relieving Letter to be issued by the Employer, I had the problem with my ex-emploer even though I gave two months notice of resignation. He wanted me to train the newly joined raw-guy and then only he would give the RL.
I rejected his foolish request and warned of complaining to TV9 about his behaviour with me. As a result, he gave me the RL by the day of the evening itself.
COME ON GUYS, WE ARE LIVING IN OUR COUNTRY AND PERFORMING OUR DUTIES AS EMPLOYEES AND PAYING TAX TO THE GOVT. WE ARE NOT SLAVES. COME ON |||| DARE, RAISE YOUR VOICE, UNLESS YOU ARE NOT AT FAULT.
Regards
Sriman Bharathiyudu
23rd September 2009 From India, Hyderabad
hi sriman,
i faced the problem in one of my previous companies - the notice period was 30 days, which I gave but the company said that they had to go in for recruitment and it was my prerogative to train the new guy/gal and did not relieve me. like I posted on another discussion, i had to train the new gal and 3 months' went by. I had to try for a new job as the offer I received closed theirs for me.
people are talking about forgery, suing but what about this attitude of not relieving by the deadline?
anyway I guess trinity's company has done the right one by terminating the girl.
23rd September 2009 From India, Madras
Hii Friends,
Before you take any decision, You shold have proper documents showing his submission of the fake document at the time of his joining.
So first, you should write a referance ckeck letter to is previous employer & eed to track a performance of the person.
Now, your decision will depend on the referance check.. If he is hard working & smart performer you can give him a chance..... Before you fire him just keep one thing in yr mind that you might have forced him to join yr company as early as possible thats the reason for his submission of fake certificates...
Regards,
Prakash Bhutaiya
23rd September 2009 From India, Mumbai
First of all, this is a matter of integrity, management is to decide.
Employers are showing hurry deciding the date DOJ, the without understanding candidates releiving from his/her employer. Candidate should be sufficient time come back with releiving date.
if there is problem with his releiving advise him to pay necessary notice period amount and join. your employer can buy if candidate joining important and seek proper releiving, this a common practice industry.
I feel strongly discourage this kind of activity. He/her should be shown gate. It should communicated all employees that the company dicourages and punishes for such wrong doing.
23rd September 2009 From India, Hyderabad
Hello Trinity,:) it seems like you have encountered a delima.
Possibly :?:the first thing to consider is having a meeting with the associate and ask them why they provided you the information the way they did. They might have justification.
However it is good to remember that the best indication of future performance is past performance.:icon9:
I believe in second chances. Sometimes your gut will be the best indicator as to which path to take. Good luck.
Dr. Marc:-D
PS 63:7
23rd September 2009 From United States, Calhoun
Dear All,

I have gone through the comments and opinions of all on the subject of fake documents, papers connected with the employment.

Having conducted the antecedent verification since 5 years for 100s of employees for pre and post employment, I have across cases involving forgery,criminal offence, misappropriation of company or customers money. It is terribly shocking to find that the contents of stated profile and actual facts in the resume mismatch in many instances. As a HR consultant and practitioner it is my call of the duty on antecedent verification to completely analyse the full profile of the candidates particulars in employment, education and life styleetc. We also recommend different alternatives to the client based on the findings in our verification process.

Our recommendations willl be on the following lines.

1. Whether his/her attitude towards the customers , colleagues, superiors is on the right proportions.

3. The career breaks or progress is consistent or inconsistent in the relevant industry or otherwise.

4. Money handling or integrity in the business and with the customers .

5. The originality of the documents.

6. His/her fitment in light above background.

The HR chief of the client normally takes the call to see the importance of the position or role of the new employee vis requirements in HR. When indulged in the fake or forgery of the papers he or she is counselled with the relevant details and the concerned emplolyee is given severe warning with the clear cut move of the company. In any case the severity of the punishment or decision will depend on the position or requirement of the Human capital.

As a consultant we recommend to do away with the concerned employee if found and proved to have indulged in the above acts. I am of the opinion that personally we all may not like to take a drastic action such as sacking but we should act above the board as we represent in larger interests of the company.

Thanks and regards.

V. Rangarajan.
23rd September 2009 From India, Pune
I would not like to have on board a person who has entered the organization on a false note. It does not speak well of the concerned person.
I would have a private chat with him, get him to admit the forgery he has committed and ask him to resign and leave.
Vasant Nair
23rd September 2009 From India, Mumbai
Forging is an offence. But if the employee has proof of submitting the Resignation letter as per agreed terms, then HR fraternity should not insist of Relieving order. In many companies problems are created by HR people. ( Foe some blood may boil). I am sorry, but be fair while making rules.
If sufficient proof is available for submitting the resignation letter with stipulated notice period, then take a written appology for forging a document and allow him to continue in job. But the whole operation should be done very confidentially. If it leaks out the concerned man will leave the company soon.
24th September 2009 From India, Bangalore
Dont analyse the problem in the employ or HR perspective,
What are reasons for doing the verification of docs by third party?, definitely your company have a policy regarding employs hiring and firing. stick to it in letter and spirit.
dont unnecesarily get into moral and other issues which cannot be justified in all the cases. Finally leave the it to the deciding authority with your impartial comments.
24th September 2009 From India, Hyderabad
Hi Trinity,

In case you let this guy continue with your company, it will pass a very negative message to the market that your company is not acting on issues of receiving fake letters. This is a breach of trust, and no relation - either personal or professional will stand strong if there is no trust that exists. Even if you send a strong warning, everytime you see him or hear his name, this episode of "Submitting fake letters" will be flashed in your mind.

How have you handled such cases before? If this is treated as an exception, how will you justify your actions to any further cases such as these?

In my opinion - you must ask him to leave. It sends a strong message that your company does not tolerate such issues. Remember the "Reinforcement theory of Motivation" - Behaviour is a function of its consequences. If you let him go with a warning, there is no guarantee that he will not repeat the same later... may be with a different employer...

In case he had walked in to your company with only a copy of resignation mail and the chain mail following the same (if any), you could still have accepted him simply because your company wanted this guy to join early - I am sure you would have not waited for him to complete his full 2 month notice period and then join you.

Cheers... Vinay
24th September 2009 From India, New Delhi
This is common in IT industry. why blame the poor guys/gals. companies themselves cook the resumes to get projects from the clients and even bag the orders. i had come across from big MNC's doing it. so what harm does this poor people have done. try to judge there work and evaluate there performance. give some KT required. when people sincerely ask for opportunity at least as fresher they ask for experience though they have good working knowledge.
so the prospective organizations are to be blamed which are indirectly creating this kind of situations.
24th September 2009 From India, Hyderabad
My dear Trinity Morpheus

Pardon my late response.

For the past few days I have just been reading all the posts in your thread.

I feel upset for a number of reasons.

First of all, you state your proposed line of action, thus :

"Now - I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediated effect for "Forging employment document". "

then, you seek others' opinion :

"Would like to understand your view on the same."

(As if you would really understand or care), because everytime someone offers a contradicting view, you immediately run a steam-roller over it, and keep justifying your line of action.

What for do you ask other's opinion, then ?

In fact, you went ahead with what you intended to do and annexed a copy of the Termination Order, many times, as if to display your drafting skills (after having sought assistance in drafting an order). Or perhaps to exhibit your fairness - like Timur Lane (or was it Ghenghiz Khan) who showed kindness to a lady by taking out her kid from a ditch - by skewering the little infant on his long spear.

My dear friend - could not you have simply asked her for a resignation letter, and then accepted it ?

Like you may be doing to many 'innocents' (those who have not committed "such heinous" crime) when you 'downsize' your company ??

Pardon me, if you feel hurt. Maybe I am very ignorant and foolish on such issues (and also lack "the killing instinct").

But, you my friend, are the police, judge, jury and executioner. You are also an evangelist on 'corporate ethics' and God's angel of virgin purity. So many roles to play - More than Priyanka Chopra in her latest flick !!!

"A company such as ours has an obligation to to adhere to the most exacting standards of ......."

" .... protection of GamCom IT Services Pvt Ltd’s legal interests and sound reputation..."

Nice n Sweet words !!

How I wish these words have come a few months earlier !!

Haven't some IT companies been indicted by world bodies for adopting unfair/unethical means to promote their business; to secure orders ??

If I have my facts right, was not there a VERY big Indian IT company with an equally charismatic Chief, who is cooling his heels somewhere in forced confinement by the government ??

What it means is - IT Companies can get way with Ethics, but their employees must stick to the stringest of Ethics. "Do what I say, don't do what I do" !!!

Whether a minor document like the Relieving letter (and not the CV, Educational Qualifications documents, Experience letters etc which are of major importance) is a "forgery" or a "fake" ?

Hope you understand the difference.

It is quite possible that HR person of her previous organization have helped her, "I will try to help you by giving you a Relieving Order at my own risk. but if there is a problem, I will deny that it has ever been issued." The grateful ex-colleague would say, "Trust me, Sir. I shall never put you into trouble for my sake. If caught, I will confess that I forged it. Thank you so much, Sir !!" I am sure, many of my friends would agree that it is a scenario too familiar to people who have been long in this profession.

Moreover, in case of forgeries, when there is no large pecuniary or other substantial loss involved, prosecution is unreasonable and never resorted to.

I don't know if you are aware of this or not ?

Maybe you have not come across any schoolboy who produced a 'forged' report card at home. Parents do not call for criminal action or expel them from the house.

Perhaps, none of your employees ever reported 'sick' falsely; or produced a 'false medical report' when they needed leave badly and management was not willing to extend or grant leave.

I think all those pilots, declaring themselves "sick" and producing 'fake' medical sertificates should immediately be put inside the jail ... to give company to IT barons 8) who never do anything 'wrong'.

The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle <link updated to site home> ( Search On Cite | Search On Google )

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Business | Deposits reek of forgery

I remember the words of someone, some centuries earlier; "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."

I guess, you will claim that your company meets the compliances of Law, including those under the companies Act, Taxation and Labour laws, files all the hundreds of returns in time, maintains and updates those hundreds of Registers required by law, pays the hundreds of challans under various govt. provision WITHIN TIME and CORRECTLY. You would expect me to believe you. Ask any good consultant (or related government authority) and he will admit that it is practically impossible to comply with all the rules and regulations. Even PSU can not comply perfectly with Entry Taxes (state govt), Professional taxes (state Govt), Excise, IT, CPF, CST, VAT etc. Quite often, penalties are charged and paid, but, none is branded as 'thief.'

Anyway, it is your company, it is your take. You decide and follow-up with whatever you wish. You need not accept anyone's opinion - as you had done in your earlier posts.

But if you had been genuinely seeking opinion, then I have given you mine - honest, frank and candid.

(Please Note : My above opinions, are restricted to the issue under discussion; and in no way reflect my personal opinion or bias against you. :icon1:)

Warm regards.
28th September 2009 From India, Delhi
Dear All participants of this thread,

I really LOL after reading most of the responses here. I am new to citeHR. I have been NRI for last 7+ years. I am from East Africa now.

Most of the threads in this site are related to Indian HR & Admin system, isnt it?

Okay, Why I wanted to LOL? In my 7+ years what all we considered in a candidate is decided within the first 5-7 minutes in the interview with him/her.

Normally, when an Indian is called for interview, he/she is presented with a bunch of certificates; who cares?

Also:

We dont want to know how much he/she got from another company. Our company has to offer a package according to his/her efficiency. We never NEVER put our nose inside previous companies to get salary details!

We dont ask for any kind of certificate or document from candidate except a copy of resume. One or two questions related to his 'job responsibilities' shows how efficient he/she is! (We know almost all universities' fake certificates are available in middle east job market).

Any reputed company has specific salary package for a specific position. Even if you bargain or qualified well, cannot be offered more than that.

After all, a six-month probation period is enough to finalize his/her efficiency!

All we know is: Papers never make a good candidate!

There are a lot of other things....M Sadique
28th September 2009 From Djibouti
Dear Ash,
I hope u r fine. What u say all this r perfectly ok. I also agree with your view. But my dear friend can you tell me all this good words( Attitude,Integrity,commitment etc.) are only applicable only with the employees and not to the employers.
Lot of other friends are already accepting in this post that employer are not doing the right thing with his employee.
If a criminal born in our society we all 'sofo' guy/gal are pointed that bugger is a criminal. But we never try to find who make him/her a criminal. If everything going fine this is my personal view, no one chitting.
Arup
28th September 2009 From India, Patna
Dear Friend,

It is quite common that Companies do not give to an employee leaving the organization a relieving letter.

It is also very common that even apointment letters are not given to employees after they join a Co. in their employment.

Also, it is very often that you find an Accepetance letter NOT being issued to an employee upon his submitting his resignation.

It is also not uncommon that the Co. opts to waive off the notice period given by the employee and clearly mentioned in his/her resignation letter and also NOT paying salary in lieu of such notice.

In the present case the best option would have been:

1. Tell your new employer that you have resigned from the employment of your previous employer. Submit a copy of your resignation letter.

In case the new employer insists, you could even submit a notorised Affidavit to support the fact of your resignation.

A better option would be (in case your resignation has not been accepetd/received) to send a copy of the resignation letter by Registered A Post. Retain the Receipt with you for future use.

2. Tell your new employer that you have not received your relieving letter in spite of your best efforts.

It is best to be truthful and upfront about such sensitive matters. Falsifying employment records reflects with alarm on your integrity/honesty. It will only bring you grief.

I am sure a resonable HR person, when presented with true facts, will take a favourable stance and most likely will not deny you a fair opportunity.

Recently I too was cnfronted with a similar case. However the new employee did not falsify his employment record and came clean. He was honest about the fact that:

1. He had resigned. He gave me a copy of his resignation Letter and copies of mail of his follow up to have the same accepted.

2. The previous employer was not inclined to releive him formally.

3. I helped him and interacted with his previous employer, and impressed upon him that he cannot force anyone to continue in his employment. That an employee has a constitutional right to resign from his employment in any Co. as per terms of his appointment/contract.

Eventually his dues were settled and he got his relieving letter.

All is well that ends well.

Cheers!!!

Vasant Nair

Best Wishes,

Vasant Nair
29th September 2009 From India, Mumbai
The issue here is one of dishonesty leading to disrespect. Did the employee advise that he/she needed 2 months to bring closure to the current job? Being straightforward brings more benefits in the long run. The fact that one even thinks of forging documents from one's previous employer points to desperation and a lack of emotional intelligence. It also shows that one is ignorant of the procedures used for the recruitment process(background checks etc.) and so took a chance. This action gives insight into the character of the person.
Whatever the decision of the company, full disclosure of the matter must take place and
also gives the offender an opportunity to review his/her personal values.
In addition, the fact that this person was employed with a reputable firm suggest that he/she might have been able to stand on their own worth and speak the truth to you, but chose to resort to forgery.
Kathleen M
29th September 2009 From Trinidad and Tobago, Port-of-spain
some of the latest mails are too good. I want HR people to understand all these ideas. They are simple. In USA , I was told , people do not ask age or even gender for appointments.
Here we need to produce the salary proofs, some companies pay in black.. where to go for proof...
I am happy , some mails are eye openers.. Great.
Regards,
Suresh
30th September 2009 From India, Bangalore
I agree with Ramesh, if only the relieving letter is fake it does not seem sense to throw out a perfectly good guy and not only put the employee in problems but also yourself. You will have to redo the entire recruitment cycle for this position. Check his suitability and stability and if he is a good "catch" I think you must retain him. BUT do ensure that you issue a memo and put him under notice, the employee should be made to understand that the company has strict ethical code but is only making an EXCEPTION for this one time ONLY.
2nd October 2009 From India
Dear Archana,

Yes is obvious that you are indeed confused!!!

The facts stated by you are:

1. One of your employees resigned, gave the prescribed one month's Notice Period, took her current month's salary and has since then, not coming for work since she has some personal problems.

2. Your Boss has sent a Notice to her.

3. Your Boss wants you to contact her and ask her come and serve out her Notice Period, else he will send her a Notice.

So you are confused!!!!

Dear child, your Boss has already sent her a Notice. Nowwhich Notice are your talking about, which your Boss is threatening to issue/send?

Well under these corcumstances, you will have send her a Notice, impressing upon her to comply with her moral obligation of serving out the prescribed One Month's Notice before being relieved from the organization.

If she does not respond to such Notices, well, the only oter option you have is to initiate legal action aganist her. The question you will have to ask yourself is..."Is the effort worth it?" Go ahead with Legal Action, if your answer is a YES. I would not reccommend such action though.

The practical solution would be to hold her Full & Final Settlement. Deduct one month's salary in lieu of the Notice Period when your decide to prepare her Full & Final Settlement. If she owes any money to the Co. sedn her a letter asking her to deposit the amount.

Cheers!!!

Vasant Nair
3rd October 2009 From India, Mumbai
You were told? Kindly confirm if you are sure.
In the US they dont ask age - but ask the birth date and year.
They dont ask gender becuase they feel everyone irrespective of the gender has the right to work.
In the US - they will HAVE to produce the proofs, and all Information including "whether they were arrested in the last few years on the basis of crime, sex, drunk and drive or even exceeding the speed limit
They are aslo asked if they were in jail for any specific period
they are also asked if at any point of time they were terminated on the basis of disciplinary grounds.
(I have worked for a few fortune 100 recruitment needs and have been trained by their Hiring Manager too :-) so...dont ever think that recruiting is a simple business in the US - they spend a lot on that honey!)
"DONT TALK ALL WHAT YOU HEAR"

5th October 2009 From India, Madras
Had been wanting to revert for a long time, but was hooked up.
My response is as under:

Regards
Trinity- Morpheus


15th October 2009 From United Kingdom, London
Dear Rajkumar,
Really liked your post, no corporate world is as clean as they seems. Especially the Indian companies. They wanted to hire candidates with short period , but they expect proper procedure. This is very contradictory.
Employer also exploiting employees. Not even following even simple labour law. Some employess are victim of thier bosses , some are victim of economical condition , some are victim of their health issues and some are of circumstances.
My view is if everythng depends on your performance and eligibility then why HR. People are not judging on it. Either you should follow pre-verification or if you joined a candidiate and BGF is not green , try to know the real reason why he done this , if candidate is genuine and something done without motive of hurmless act we should at least give a chance based on his performance and eligibility and rebuilt his career. Just think every employee is the bread earner for someone. If you terminate him there is chance of doing more misconduct in future.
If a criminial become our minister and make law and rule the state/country.
At least giving a chance is better option for anyone who seems genuine and victim of circumstance for rebulit his future and mistakes.
25th August 2017 From India, Guwahati
Hi All,
I have a query, what action can be taken if an employee is found misrepresenting his education degree? Anyone has come across this scenario? In case of a dismissal is the employer liable for any notice pay?
Thanks in advance for your help.
S
3rd May 2019 From India, Mumbai

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