Dear Team,
In my organization, we have two office timings: one is 9 am to 5 pm and the other is 9:45 am to 6 pm. Our Marketing Manager's timings are from 9 am to 5 pm, but she consistently arrives late, around 10 am, without informing HR or Management.
When I raised this issue with Management, they mentioned that they are more concerned about the completion of work rather than strict adherence to timings by employees.
Despite warning the Marketing Manager multiple times, she justified her lateness by stating that her offer letter only requires her to report to Management, not HR. As a result, I stopped issuing warnings.
I seek your guidance on how to address this situation promptly.
Regards,
Divya Shah
HR Manager
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)
Amend(0)
1In my organization, we have two office timings: one is 9 am to 5 pm and the other is 9:45 am to 6 pm. Our Marketing Manager's timings are from 9 am to 5 pm, but she consistently arrives late, around 10 am, without informing HR or Management.
When I raised this issue with Management, they mentioned that they are more concerned about the completion of work rather than strict adherence to timings by employees.
Despite warning the Marketing Manager multiple times, she justified her lateness by stating that her offer letter only requires her to report to Management, not HR. As a result, I stopped issuing warnings.
I seek your guidance on how to address this situation promptly.
Regards,
Divya Shah
HR Manager
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear Divya,
I find a contradiction in your post. You have written, "When I discussed this with my Management, he stated that he is not concerned about timings; he is concerned whether work is done or not by employees."
Once management says that they are not concerned about the punctuality of one of the managers, then what was the need to warn the Marketing Manager? If you are an HR Manager, then by now you must have realized that any kind of warnings are to be issued through the top management. Why did you try shooting while keeping the gun on your shoulder? Smart HRs always shoot by keeping the gun on the seniors' shoulder!
Discuss the issue once and for all with the management. Explain to them that giving exemptions to individuals smacks of favoritism. Other employees may become disgruntled because of the partial and uneven treatment. Exemptions of this kind degrade the organization's culture as a whole. If the management listens to your plea, then well and good; otherwise, drop the matter there itself and move on!
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I find a contradiction in your post. You have written, "When I discussed this with my Management, he stated that he is not concerned about timings; he is concerned whether work is done or not by employees."
Once management says that they are not concerned about the punctuality of one of the managers, then what was the need to warn the Marketing Manager? If you are an HR Manager, then by now you must have realized that any kind of warnings are to be issued through the top management. Why did you try shooting while keeping the gun on your shoulder? Smart HRs always shoot by keeping the gun on the seniors' shoulder!
Discuss the issue once and for all with the management. Explain to them that giving exemptions to individuals smacks of favoritism. Other employees may become disgruntled because of the partial and uneven treatment. Exemptions of this kind degrade the organization's culture as a whole. If the management listens to your plea, then well and good; otherwise, drop the matter there itself and move on!
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear Divya,
Many times, people working in marketing or business development enjoy special privileges within the company. Therefore, if your management is satisfied or appears content with the marketing manager's performance, you may consider refraining from involving yourself in this matter.
Thank you.
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Many times, people working in marketing or business development enjoy special privileges within the company. Therefore, if your management is satisfied or appears content with the marketing manager's performance, you may consider refraining from involving yourself in this matter.
Thank you.
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Hi Divya,
Punctuality and attendance are fast losing their importance in modern businesses that aim to be employee-friendly, as flexible timings are becoming the norm. Modern businesses are primarily concerned with results and the quantity of work hours (i.e., 8 hours), which means if you come in late, you leave late, but not necessarily that the employee must arrive at the starting time. However, there is an exception to this flexibility. In customer-driven offices like bank branches, sales outlets/shops, or insurance offices, staff need to be punctual, whereas administrative offices often allow flexible timings.
You have brought the issue of her tardiness to the attention of management, and they have no problem with it as long as she delivers results. Therefore, it is advisable to close the matter and avoid prolonging it further, as it may backfire on you. To safeguard yourself, report such incidents or any behavioral issues on the part of the staff to management to gauge their response and determine the appropriate course of action to address them.
B. Saikumar
HR & Labor Relations Advisor
Navi Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Punctuality and attendance are fast losing their importance in modern businesses that aim to be employee-friendly, as flexible timings are becoming the norm. Modern businesses are primarily concerned with results and the quantity of work hours (i.e., 8 hours), which means if you come in late, you leave late, but not necessarily that the employee must arrive at the starting time. However, there is an exception to this flexibility. In customer-driven offices like bank branches, sales outlets/shops, or insurance offices, staff need to be punctual, whereas administrative offices often allow flexible timings.
You have brought the issue of her tardiness to the attention of management, and they have no problem with it as long as she delivers results. Therefore, it is advisable to close the matter and avoid prolonging it further, as it may backfire on you. To safeguard yourself, report such incidents or any behavioral issues on the part of the staff to management to gauge their response and determine the appropriate course of action to address them.
B. Saikumar
HR & Labor Relations Advisor
Navi Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
This kind of laissez-faire atmosphere will make other employees follow suit. You have done your role by informing management. Whom did you inform in the management? The problem is: To some, being late may seem like a minor issue to overlook. To others, it is what determines a good business outcome versus a great business outcome. Here, due to the manager's inconsistent and confusing conduct, lateness and repeated late-coming were not seen as serious offenses and were openly overlooked. The manager has abdicated their duty to take appropriate corrective steps regarding the employee's chronic late-coming issue. You could probably document the chronic lateness and leave it at that.
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Thank you, sir, for your response. My management has set two timings for the flexibility of employees. However, this is viewed as a disadvantage by the Marketing Manager. She is very egoistic and argues a lot. Due to her behavior, management has indicated that they are not concerned about her arriving late to the office. I have been advised not to argue or disrupt the environment. This situation has left me feeling upset as I have been attempting to maintain discipline in the office by implementing rules and regulations. Unfortunately, there seems to be a negative perception of me that I am too strict with rules.
I am unsure of what to do next. Should I avoid discussing this topic with the manager or should I simply observe the situation from a distance?
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I am unsure of what to do next. Should I avoid discussing this topic with the manager or should I simply observe the situation from a distance?
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
You sit back and watch what happens in this particular case, whether the malaise spreads to other marketing employees. Remember, all of us work within our roles and powers. You have informed the departmental manager concerned about late arrival on a regular basis, and they are cool about it. Document it and stop raising this issue again.
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Pl follow the words of Saikumar Sir. I think the timing is not right to rake up the issue.
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear Manoj Kamble,
You have written, "Many times, people working in marketing or generating business enjoy special privileges in the company. So, if your management is okay or apparently happy with the performance of the marketing manager, then you may avoid getting into this matter."
Yes, management may want to run the company the way they want. The average employee, which includes HR as well, cannot question the wisdom of the top authorities. Nevertheless, what matters is how one looks at the performance.
Good performance or super performance cannot have any trade-off. Any performance, however excellent, must be delivered while remaining within the framework of discipline. If an employee performs well but at the cost of punctuality, then it is not good performance at all. Condoning punctuality cannot be a privilege at all.
Argyris has compared discipline to a hot stove. Whoever touches the hot stove gets an equal burn. The stove does not differentiate based on the person touching it. The execution of discipline is similar to the hot stove. Therefore, Argyris teaches us that the principle of equality is the foundation of discipline. Violate the principle, and troubles may arise elsewhere.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
You have written, "Many times, people working in marketing or generating business enjoy special privileges in the company. So, if your management is okay or apparently happy with the performance of the marketing manager, then you may avoid getting into this matter."
Yes, management may want to run the company the way they want. The average employee, which includes HR as well, cannot question the wisdom of the top authorities. Nevertheless, what matters is how one looks at the performance.
Good performance or super performance cannot have any trade-off. Any performance, however excellent, must be delivered while remaining within the framework of discipline. If an employee performs well but at the cost of punctuality, then it is not good performance at all. Condoning punctuality cannot be a privilege at all.
Argyris has compared discipline to a hot stove. Whoever touches the hot stove gets an equal burn. The stove does not differentiate based on the person touching it. The execution of discipline is similar to the hot stove. Therefore, Argyris teaches us that the principle of equality is the foundation of discipline. Violate the principle, and troubles may arise elsewhere.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
In highly creative fields like advertising and core R&D, it is well known that certain freedoms and unconventional work arrangements are allowed. However, allowing a rather bohemian style in a normal office setting would come at the cost of discipline. As pointed out by Dinesh Sir, the "hot stove rule" proposed by Douglas Murray McGregor in the early 1960s (McGregor was an influential figure in the management world, well known for his book, "The Human Side of Enterprise" published in 1960) is still very relevant.
If a Marketing Manager is allowed to come and go at whim, her subordinates may also start following the same rule, leading to a lack of discipline in the workplace. The frustration of Divya is understandable and justified.
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
If a Marketing Manager is allowed to come and go at whim, her subordinates may also start following the same rule, leading to a lack of discipline in the workplace. The frustration of Divya is understandable and justified.
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Seniors have said correctly. But on the safer side, if you had communicated in writing, keep note of it. In case not, keep some record of it (Both parties, Marketing Manager & Employer). It may happen due to some poor show of marketing; management may change decisions. At that time, this will help you.
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
It is good to be flexible in timings as long as the work is done within the time limits. Gone are the days when some of the corporations used to act like schools, where discipline was more significant than the work being accomplished. If an employee is proficient at their job and the reporting manager doesn't seem to have an issue with the employee consistently arriving late but still performing their duties effectively, it is advisable to leave it at that. It should not escalate into a matter of prestige between the concerned employee and the HR department. The HR department can only benefit the company when it comprehends and adapts to the situation rather than adhering rigidly to rules alone.
From India, Hyderabad
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, Hyderabad
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I want to write email to employees saying him that come on casual dreess how i can write the email to employee
From India, undefined
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, undefined
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear Nami, This is a different thread on timings and flexibility of employees. Do not divert the forum, post it separately.
From India, Hyderabad
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
From India, Hyderabad
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
A whole set of tech-savvy new generation grown up in a socio-economic environment that is vastly different from that of the 1950s to 1970s, called millennials, have come to make a significant portion of the workforce in modern workplaces. They are innovative, aspirational, hardworking, freedom-loving, and result-oriented. They feel stifled by control and hierarchy. They like flat offices and prefer direct communication with their bosses. Though they may arrive late to the office, they might have already been working at home on their laptops for two hours before reaching the office. They are changing the paradigms of work culture, and the managements, after incurring the high cost of acquiring those talents, may not be willing to lose them. So, the traditional norms of punctuality and attendance are slowly being replaced by flexible working hours to attract them, especially in fields like IT, telecommunications, marketing, branding, and design.
However, punctuality and attendance are still essential virtues in manufacturing and customer-driven business transactions, such as banking, insurance, and retail stores. HR needs to adapt itself accordingly to the changing paradigms of work culture, which are leaning more towards performance-driven rather than punctuality-driven in creative vocations.
B. Saikumar HR & Labour Relations Adviser Navi Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
However, punctuality and attendance are still essential virtues in manufacturing and customer-driven business transactions, such as banking, insurance, and retail stores. HR needs to adapt itself accordingly to the changing paradigms of work culture, which are leaning more towards performance-driven rather than punctuality-driven in creative vocations.
B. Saikumar HR & Labour Relations Adviser Navi Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Hi there,
I have a different view on the "Marketing Manager" coming late. In most companies, they don't even have set timings and are given flexible schedules. Timings are not strictly followed as the ultimate goal is to bring business to the company. Many times, they visit clients directly or come to the office and then go out, so they may not strictly adhere to punching in and out. Moreover, in most companies, this flexibility is accepted as long as their reporting boss approves.
I would agree if the accounts department or finance department did not arrive on time. There are situations where certain flexibility is also granted to managers and they are expected to work for a standard 8-hour day from their reporting time.
Let's not forget that as long as they bring in business, the company survives. Flexibility is often considered, especially for HODs or managers.
What is the HR position if an employee arrives and leaves on time but fails to generate business? As an HR professional, I speak from that perspective.
Thanks
From India, Visakhapatnam
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I have a different view on the "Marketing Manager" coming late. In most companies, they don't even have set timings and are given flexible schedules. Timings are not strictly followed as the ultimate goal is to bring business to the company. Many times, they visit clients directly or come to the office and then go out, so they may not strictly adhere to punching in and out. Moreover, in most companies, this flexibility is accepted as long as their reporting boss approves.
I would agree if the accounts department or finance department did not arrive on time. There are situations where certain flexibility is also granted to managers and they are expected to work for a standard 8-hour day from their reporting time.
Let's not forget that as long as they bring in business, the company survives. Flexibility is often considered, especially for HODs or managers.
What is the HR position if an employee arrives and leaves on time but fails to generate business? As an HR professional, I speak from that perspective.
Thanks
From India, Visakhapatnam
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Thank you, Mr. Dinesh Divekar, for your smart reply. I appreciate your response. "Why did you try shooting while keeping the gun on your shoulder? Smart HRs always shoot by keeping the gun on the senior's shoulder!" Now I understand the concept of the "SMART HR." This is very helpful to me.
Thank you, Divya, I am also troubled by the same issue. Thanks a lot.
From India, Warangal
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Thank you, Divya, I am also troubled by the same issue. Thanks a lot.
From India, Warangal
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Mr. Dinesh and Mr. Sai Kumar provided proper feedback.
Being an HR professional, we always strive to maintain discipline within the organization. However, in some cases, it can be challenging due to various reasons and conditions. In this situation, your manager is focused on meeting her business requirements, which may lead to them appearing less concerned. It is essential to understand the management's perspective in such instances.
You should begin by documenting each case involving employees. For instance, if someone is frequently late, this behavior should be recorded and can be used as evidence in the future if such issues are raised by management.
From India, Ahmadabad
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Being an HR professional, we always strive to maintain discipline within the organization. However, in some cases, it can be challenging due to various reasons and conditions. In this situation, your manager is focused on meeting her business requirements, which may lead to them appearing less concerned. It is essential to understand the management's perspective in such instances.
You should begin by documenting each case involving employees. For instance, if someone is frequently late, this behavior should be recorded and can be used as evidence in the future if such issues are raised by management.
From India, Ahmadabad
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear Vrgajjar,
Discipline should be viewed as a condition within an organisation whereby Employees know what is expected of them in terms of the organisation’s rules, Standards and policies and what the consequences are of infractions.· —Rue & Byars, 1996
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISCIPLINE?
The immediate supervisor is responsible for maintaining discipline and morale among employees he/she supervises and for initiating appropriate disciplinary action where there is adequate reason The line supervisor is mainly responsible for the enforcement of company rules. It is a very important responsibility requiring impartiality, good judgment, and moral courage. Disciplinary action should, therefore, be taken by the immediate line supervisor. But, to avoid embarrassments and violation of company policies/rules as well as of union agreements/laws of the nation, before taking disciplinary action involving warning letters, suspensions or dismissals, he must first mandatorily consult in writing with his superior and the personnel manager.
HR is expected to be knowledgeable with laws/policies/procedure/natural justice etc and competent to advice line of action and steps to achieve aim of disciplinary actions.
Investigations, hearings, and specific procedures may be involved in serious disciplinary cases. It must be remembered that disciplinary action is a tool, not a weapon of supervision.
So in the instant case, the superior of the late coming manager needs to take considered view on the subject.
HR can step in advisory capacity if asked or it is noticed that the disease of late coming is spreading by example.
HR here is to playing a balancing role of advisory nature and avoid getting tinto a situation where employee quits and HR gets blame for making a result oreinted employee quit.
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Discipline should be viewed as a condition within an organisation whereby Employees know what is expected of them in terms of the organisation’s rules, Standards and policies and what the consequences are of infractions.· —Rue & Byars, 1996
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISCIPLINE?
The immediate supervisor is responsible for maintaining discipline and morale among employees he/she supervises and for initiating appropriate disciplinary action where there is adequate reason The line supervisor is mainly responsible for the enforcement of company rules. It is a very important responsibility requiring impartiality, good judgment, and moral courage. Disciplinary action should, therefore, be taken by the immediate line supervisor. But, to avoid embarrassments and violation of company policies/rules as well as of union agreements/laws of the nation, before taking disciplinary action involving warning letters, suspensions or dismissals, he must first mandatorily consult in writing with his superior and the personnel manager.
HR is expected to be knowledgeable with laws/policies/procedure/natural justice etc and competent to advice line of action and steps to achieve aim of disciplinary actions.
Investigations, hearings, and specific procedures may be involved in serious disciplinary cases. It must be remembered that disciplinary action is a tool, not a weapon of supervision.
So in the instant case, the superior of the late coming manager needs to take considered view on the subject.
HR can step in advisory capacity if asked or it is noticed that the disease of late coming is spreading by example.
HR here is to playing a balancing role of advisory nature and avoid getting tinto a situation where employee quits and HR gets blame for making a result oreinted employee quit.
From India, Pune
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)Join Our Community and get connected with the right people who can help. Our AI-powered platform provides real-time fact-checking, peer-reviewed insights, and a vast historical knowledge base to support your search.
An approach to clean management.doc
Tha Management Approach.pps