Hi,
I came across this topic a few days back and would like to know your comments on this: "Recruitments: Sales or HR." According to me, recruitment is a mix of sales and HR. What do you all think?
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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I came across this topic a few days back and would like to know your comments on this: "Recruitments: Sales or HR." According to me, recruitment is a mix of sales and HR. What do you all think?
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Aditi,
I think recruitment is at the core an HR issue, as we want the best of talents, and how that choice is to be made is all what HR has to do. But if you want competent people in your organization, you need to prove the worth or the salability of your organization, and there sales come into the picture.
Ekta
From India, Ahmadabad
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6I think recruitment is at the core an HR issue, as we want the best of talents, and how that choice is to be made is all what HR has to do. But if you want competent people in your organization, you need to prove the worth or the salability of your organization, and there sales come into the picture.
Ekta
From India, Ahmadabad
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Hi Ekta,
Thanks for responding!
When it comes to recruitment:
- we are selling the "position" to a candidate
- the candidate is selling his/her skills to us to be selected
- but when we bring the person on board, it becomes an HR function as the new incumbent has to be nurtured in the organization to be made a part of the group.
So I guess we can safely say that until the stage of selection, it can be seen as a sales job, but once the person is hired, it becomes a complete HR function.
What do you say...
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Thanks for responding!
When it comes to recruitment:
- we are selling the "position" to a candidate
- the candidate is selling his/her skills to us to be selected
- but when we bring the person on board, it becomes an HR function as the new incumbent has to be nurtured in the organization to be made a part of the group.
So I guess we can safely say that until the stage of selection, it can be seen as a sales job, but once the person is hired, it becomes a complete HR function.
What do you say...
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Aditi,
Sorry! I don't agree with you on the point that there is no HR function before Selection. How are you going to sell the position? This question needs to be answered by the HR. Besides that, how are you going to select the person without the help of HR?
Ekta
From India, Ahmadabad
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Sorry! I don't agree with you on the point that there is no HR function before Selection. How are you going to sell the position? This question needs to be answered by the HR. Besides that, how are you going to select the person without the help of HR?
Ekta
From India, Ahmadabad
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Hi Ekta,
I didn't mean that there is no job of HR until selection since it's HR which does the selling to the candidate. What I mean was that it's more of a selling in nature and later it's more of HR :)
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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I didn't mean that there is no job of HR until selection since it's HR which does the selling to the candidate. What I mean was that it's more of a selling in nature and later it's more of HR :)
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Ekta and Aditi,
Sorry! I don't agree with you on the point that there is no HR function before selection. How can you sell the position without the help of HR? This question needs to be answered by the HR. Besides that, how are you going to select a person without the help of HR?
There are two important HR functions before selection:
1) Manpower Planning
2) Recruitment (It is closely linked with Selection, but is a separate function)
If we consider the topic "Recruitments: Sales or HR":
- We are selling the "position" to a candidate
- The candidate is selling his/her skills to us to be selected
In this scenario, Aditi is correct, and I don't see anything wrong with this.
Recruitment can be done by consultants as well, but they have a very little role in the selection of a candidate. The consultant is doing business, so it is their sales :)
Manu
From India, New Delhi
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Sorry! I don't agree with you on the point that there is no HR function before selection. How can you sell the position without the help of HR? This question needs to be answered by the HR. Besides that, how are you going to select a person without the help of HR?
There are two important HR functions before selection:
1) Manpower Planning
2) Recruitment (It is closely linked with Selection, but is a separate function)
If we consider the topic "Recruitments: Sales or HR":
- We are selling the "position" to a candidate
- The candidate is selling his/her skills to us to be selected
In this scenario, Aditi is correct, and I don't see anything wrong with this.
Recruitment can be done by consultants as well, but they have a very little role in the selection of a candidate. The consultant is doing business, so it is their sales :)
Manu
From India, New Delhi
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According to me, recruitment is a crucial activity of the HR function. It is not directly linked to sales and marketing phenomena. Many companies are in expansion mode; however, they are facing tight labor markets. The competition for talent is intensifying, as there are fewer qualified applicants available. This shortage of applicants makes it even more important for organizations to be able to expedite the recruitment process.
The number of job openings exceeds the number of closures. Many companies also face challenges with sourcing, leading to extended turnaround times in recruitment. Deficiencies outnumber opportunities for Turnaround Time (TAT) metrics. Some key metrics include:
1. Time taken to shortlist.
2. Time taken to schedule interviews.
3. Time taken to onboard candidates.
Improving these metrics can reduce TAT. The above processes are part of HR's modus operandi. However, many software companies are adopting insourcing strategies where line managers are given more authority. Besides sourcing, business heads can conduct tests and interviews, and if they find a profile compatible, they forward it to HR. Insourcing speeds up the recruitment process internally but also blurs the core HR function related to recruitment. This approach turns recruitment into a target-driven activity for business heads, resembling sales functions. Consequently, HR's role becomes less distinct.
I hope I have been able to relate to the topic.
Animesh
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The number of job openings exceeds the number of closures. Many companies also face challenges with sourcing, leading to extended turnaround times in recruitment. Deficiencies outnumber opportunities for Turnaround Time (TAT) metrics. Some key metrics include:
1. Time taken to shortlist.
2. Time taken to schedule interviews.
3. Time taken to onboard candidates.
Improving these metrics can reduce TAT. The above processes are part of HR's modus operandi. However, many software companies are adopting insourcing strategies where line managers are given more authority. Besides sourcing, business heads can conduct tests and interviews, and if they find a profile compatible, they forward it to HR. Insourcing speeds up the recruitment process internally but also blurs the core HR function related to recruitment. This approach turns recruitment into a target-driven activity for business heads, resembling sales functions. Consequently, HR's role becomes less distinct.
I hope I have been able to relate to the topic.
Animesh
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When evaluating a candidate's profile (expertise, sets of skills, competencies), remember that the candidate is on the deliverable side, not you. The interviewer makes the choice by applying the "rule of three." On the other side, the candidate strives to showcase their skills to meet the requirements set by the organization. It's a trial-and-error process. If you, as a candidate, meet those requirements, you are in. In sales, the competencies for each product to be sold are the same; it's the cost variable that matters, and nothing else.
Sourcing is based on advertising. Here, we can consider it as part of sales functions.
Regards,
Animesh
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Sourcing is based on advertising. Here, we can consider it as part of sales functions.
Regards,
Animesh
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There is nothing more to be discussed on this issue. As HR concepts are very versatile and play a strategic business partner role in sales, marketing, operations, or anything else.
Aditi's recruitment is not bolstered by the concepts of sales, whether it is a company trying to fill positions or a candidate seeking a job. Recruitment in any company is about "sourcing." It is about how you, as an HR professional, create pipelines or identify niche positions.
When you search for a specific profile, it is not purely a sales function. It is a combination of scale (technical skills and behavioral skills) that you are looking for. In sales, you certainly have target customers, but there is no in-depth analysis like in recruitment. Recruitment offers both to the customer (candidate) - the product (job) and the price (compensation) as well.
So, whether it is sourcing, interviewing, or getting candidates on board, HR is a core activity. To some extent, it overlaps with other functions as well. However, that doesn't mean we should sideline HR for other activities.
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Aditi's recruitment is not bolstered by the concepts of sales, whether it is a company trying to fill positions or a candidate seeking a job. Recruitment in any company is about "sourcing." It is about how you, as an HR professional, create pipelines or identify niche positions.
When you search for a specific profile, it is not purely a sales function. It is a combination of scale (technical skills and behavioral skills) that you are looking for. In sales, you certainly have target customers, but there is no in-depth analysis like in recruitment. Recruitment offers both to the customer (candidate) - the product (job) and the price (compensation) as well.
So, whether it is sourcing, interviewing, or getting candidates on board, HR is a core activity. To some extent, it overlaps with other functions as well. However, that doesn't mean we should sideline HR for other activities.
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Hi Aditi,
I want to join this discussion. Well, I would favor Ekta in this, that recruitment process involves most of the HR functions rather than sales. To recruit a candidate, we need to involve much of psychology and interpersonal skills. Even while interviewing candidates, the interviewer checks their skills and attitudes. That's why psychometric tools are used. What do you say, Ekta and Aditi?
Dips
From India, Delhi
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I want to join this discussion. Well, I would favor Ekta in this, that recruitment process involves most of the HR functions rather than sales. To recruit a candidate, we need to involve much of psychology and interpersonal skills. Even while interviewing candidates, the interviewer checks their skills and attitudes. That's why psychometric tools are used. What do you say, Ekta and Aditi?
Dips
From India, Delhi
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Hi Deepali,
I too agree about the selection part (phasing out bulk indents with the psychology templates) but what about sourcing techniques -- say placing advertisements for a niche profile, where you find it tough to have closures and have deviations in TAT. Few metrics are defined as per the rule of marketing. Don't get into the selection part only. For getting a candidate on the board, "recruitment" is the front liner - which means inviting potential candidates for selection on the basis of rejection. Read my earlier submissions.
Animesh
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I too agree about the selection part (phasing out bulk indents with the psychology templates) but what about sourcing techniques -- say placing advertisements for a niche profile, where you find it tough to have closures and have deviations in TAT. Few metrics are defined as per the rule of marketing. Don't get into the selection part only. For getting a candidate on the board, "recruitment" is the front liner - which means inviting potential candidates for selection on the basis of rejection. Read my earlier submissions.
Animesh
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Hi Deepali,
I too agree about the selection part (phasing out bulk indents with the help of psychology templates) but what about sourcing techniques -- say placing advertisements for a niche profile, where you find it tough to have closures and have deviations in TAT. Few metrics are defined as per the rule of marketing. Don't get into the selection part only. For getting a candidate on the board "recruitment" is the front liner - which means inviting potential candidates for selection on the basis of rejection. So some kind of selling deliverables comes into action. What about BPOs where insourcing is done for recruitment (because attritions are high) business heads have carte blanche to recruit, they just slog to meet recruitment as a sales target, which puts more quantity and poor quality. Read my earlier submissions.
Animesh
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I too agree about the selection part (phasing out bulk indents with the help of psychology templates) but what about sourcing techniques -- say placing advertisements for a niche profile, where you find it tough to have closures and have deviations in TAT. Few metrics are defined as per the rule of marketing. Don't get into the selection part only. For getting a candidate on the board "recruitment" is the front liner - which means inviting potential candidates for selection on the basis of rejection. So some kind of selling deliverables comes into action. What about BPOs where insourcing is done for recruitment (because attritions are high) business heads have carte blanche to recruit, they just slog to meet recruitment as a sales target, which puts more quantity and poor quality. Read my earlier submissions.
Animesh
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Hi Animesh,
Yes, that's right. If you look at what I said, recruitment does involve sales but very less as compared to HR. BPOs do have a high attrition rate, but I think that is many times because of poor HR policies that are attached to this sector. I think there is a lot of improvement needed in HRD in this particular sector. If proper tests are devised to check for a candidate's stability and skills, it could lead to a decrease in the attrition rate. Yes, that is right that there is bulk recruitment in call centers, but then sooner or later, much of the filtering is done and then it is included under attrition. What do you say?
Dips
From India, Delhi
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Yes, that's right. If you look at what I said, recruitment does involve sales but very less as compared to HR. BPOs do have a high attrition rate, but I think that is many times because of poor HR policies that are attached to this sector. I think there is a lot of improvement needed in HRD in this particular sector. If proper tests are devised to check for a candidate's stability and skills, it could lead to a decrease in the attrition rate. Yes, that is right that there is bulk recruitment in call centers, but then sooner or later, much of the filtering is done and then it is included under attrition. What do you say?
Dips
From India, Delhi
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Hi Deepali,
I don't agree that attrition leads to filtering out those who have expertise and flair for this un lucrative job. If you make a business and grade-wise split for resignation analysis, you'll see that BPOs have very short careers. With attributes like "home has become a hotel," it's good to work in a call center if you are sitting idle.
So, if you look through the fishbone grid, attrition is a major concern but still an uncontrollable one. BPOs are now focusing on retention policies more than investing time in recruitment.
Aspects like resignation analysis, stayability analysis, and reducing TAT are prima facie, isn't it Deepali?
By the way, are you currently working or in school?
Animesh
animeshmark@yahoo.co.uk
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I don't agree that attrition leads to filtering out those who have expertise and flair for this un lucrative job. If you make a business and grade-wise split for resignation analysis, you'll see that BPOs have very short careers. With attributes like "home has become a hotel," it's good to work in a call center if you are sitting idle.
So, if you look through the fishbone grid, attrition is a major concern but still an uncontrollable one. BPOs are now focusing on retention policies more than investing time in recruitment.
Aspects like resignation analysis, stayability analysis, and reducing TAT are prima facie, isn't it Deepali?
By the way, are you currently working or in school?
Animesh
animeshmark@yahoo.co.uk
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Hello Animesh,
I didn't say attrition leads to filtering, but it's somewhere vice-versa. But then coming to the topic, every aspect of recruitment right from manpower planning to final induction involves HR. Isn't that.
Well, Animesh, I have completed my MBA just 15 days back and waiting for the results. I have worked with a consultancy for 3 months and now I am working in a BPO as an HR exec. What about you? I would like you to kindly go through the "HOPE TO HEAR" in the management community forum index that I have posted today and give me a suggestion for the same.
Dips
From India, Delhi
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I didn't say attrition leads to filtering, but it's somewhere vice-versa. But then coming to the topic, every aspect of recruitment right from manpower planning to final induction involves HR. Isn't that.
Well, Animesh, I have completed my MBA just 15 days back and waiting for the results. I have worked with a consultancy for 3 months and now I am working in a BPO as an HR exec. What about you? I would like you to kindly go through the "HOPE TO HEAR" in the management community forum index that I have posted today and give me a suggestion for the same.
Dips
From India, Delhi
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hi ekta, exactly, recruitment and selection is a core function of hrd, and it has least to do with sales. well ekta can u plz tell me abt urself to hv a better view. dips
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Thanks all for taking the time to express your opinions. I agree that recruitment is a core HR activity, but as Animesh said, it does get mixed up with a bit of sales sometimes, and this is where the whole discussion started.
Thanks again,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Thanks again,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Aditi,
Recruitment is not sales because sales is all about client generation (account), while recruitment is client servicing, more of operations. It relates to sales in only one way, i.e. TARGETS. What do you say?
Regards,
Vishal
From India, Mumbai
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Recruitment is not sales because sales is all about client generation (account), while recruitment is client servicing, more of operations. It relates to sales in only one way, i.e. TARGETS. What do you say?
Regards,
Vishal
From India, Mumbai
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Lots of discussion going on here...
I believe that a salesperson can perform HR work more efficiently as they already have experience in dealing with clients and getting orders from them. They are also accustomed to working under pressure and meeting deadlines, such as targets, delivery schedules, and collections. Observing a salesperson trying to win back a lost client can give insight into the level of stress they handle.
Salespeople face intense competition while maintaining their market share, which can also be applied to retaining employees. The skills involved in Customer Relations can be translated into Employee Relations, highlighting the similarities between the two roles. The key is to have the right perception of the situation.
On another note, Vishal provides some excellent examples regarding perception. I plan to outline the job descriptions of Sales Professionals and compare them with HR Professionals, which should make for an interesting read. What do you think?
From India, Ahmadabad
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I believe that a salesperson can perform HR work more efficiently as they already have experience in dealing with clients and getting orders from them. They are also accustomed to working under pressure and meeting deadlines, such as targets, delivery schedules, and collections. Observing a salesperson trying to win back a lost client can give insight into the level of stress they handle.
Salespeople face intense competition while maintaining their market share, which can also be applied to retaining employees. The skills involved in Customer Relations can be translated into Employee Relations, highlighting the similarities between the two roles. The key is to have the right perception of the situation.
On another note, Vishal provides some excellent examples regarding perception. I plan to outline the job descriptions of Sales Professionals and compare them with HR Professionals, which should make for an interesting read. What do you think?
From India, Ahmadabad
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A part of recruitment, especially sourcing or soliciting prospective employees, requires certain sales traits such as the ability to communicate effectively the opportunity, generate interest and spark in the individual for the open position, and convince the candidate that the open position presents a better value for him and his career. As an HR/Recruitment person, when we speak to candidates about positions and the company, we engage in the HR aspect of "selling" or "presenting a value proposition".
In many countries, recruitment is also a part of sales and can encompass client and account management. Although recruitment is an HR activity, the person performing that role should possess the necessary soft skills.
Is recruitment Sales or HR? As I understand it, it is an HR functional role that requires a few "sales" attributes. My two cents.
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In many countries, recruitment is also a part of sales and can encompass client and account management. Although recruitment is an HR activity, the person performing that role should possess the necessary soft skills.
Is recruitment Sales or HR? As I understand it, it is an HR functional role that requires a few "sales" attributes. My two cents.
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Yes, Animesh you are right and If I am correct, we did our summers together at BHEL, Delhi. Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Azmal,
I think matching the job descriptions will be a great idea, and if we can create a third one by taking the relevant parts from the two, it would be a good learning experience. I am working in an IT firm, so I am not exposed to the Sales JD's. Could you please forward one to me for this exercise if you have one?
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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I think matching the job descriptions will be a great idea, and if we can create a third one by taking the relevant parts from the two, it would be a good learning experience. I am working in an IT firm, so I am not exposed to the Sales JD's. Could you please forward one to me for this exercise if you have one?
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Rajnish,
I agree that a little bit of selling is needed in the initial stages, and in the later stages, if the recruiter has done the job well, the baton of selling passes on to the candidate because he is the one who packages and tries to sell his skills for the position.
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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I agree that a little bit of selling is needed in the initial stages, and in the later stages, if the recruiter has done the job well, the baton of selling passes on to the candidate because he is the one who packages and tries to sell his skills for the position.
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Dear Aditi/Animesh,
This forum is not for personal introductions. We have member blogs for that. Please refrain from these kinds of comments as it dilutes the discussion. Now, Aditi, where is your discussion heading? Please don't start the discussion just for the sake of it. Always remember, there are a lot of people who would visit the discussion. For them, your comments would be a royal wastage of time. Hope you got my point. Take it as advice, not a suggestion. Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Vishal
From India, Mumbai
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This forum is not for personal introductions. We have member blogs for that. Please refrain from these kinds of comments as it dilutes the discussion. Now, Aditi, where is your discussion heading? Please don't start the discussion just for the sake of it. Always remember, there are a lot of people who would visit the discussion. For them, your comments would be a royal wastage of time. Hope you got my point. Take it as advice, not a suggestion. Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Vishal
From India, Mumbai
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Hi Aditi,
Can you please send me a test email to animeshmark@yahoo.co.uk and don't forget to include your cell number? There are many things I need to tell you (which you should know).... I have emailed you many times, but you have not responded. I am waiting, Diya.
Animesh
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Can you please send me a test email to animeshmark@yahoo.co.uk and don't forget to include your cell number? There are many things I need to tell you (which you should know).... I have emailed you many times, but you have not responded. I am waiting, Diya.
Animesh
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Hi Vishal,
My intention was never to dilute the discussion, and I am sorry if this is how my reply to Animesh was perceived. I posted this topic so that I could get views from the HR fraternity, and I am happy that so many people have joined the discussion.
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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My intention was never to dilute the discussion, and I am sorry if this is how my reply to Animesh was perceived. I posted this topic so that I could get views from the HR fraternity, and I am happy that so many people have joined the discussion.
Regards,
Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Aditi,
You should not be sorry for finding an old friend, whatever the forum may be. As for the discussion, it seems to have become more lively.
As a HR person, you are utilizing the skills of a Marketing Person - using all the media available to contact your client (in this case, your friend). So here, I have one more point in favor of salespeople. 😄
From India, Ahmadabad
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You should not be sorry for finding an old friend, whatever the forum may be. As for the discussion, it seems to have become more lively.
As a HR person, you are utilizing the skills of a Marketing Person - using all the media available to contact your client (in this case, your friend). So here, I have one more point in favor of salespeople. 😄
From India, Ahmadabad
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Aditi,
The reason why I gave that advice was that a lot of non-members view the posts. If you reveal your contacts here on the posts, it could prove harmful for you in the future. At member blogs, only members can access it depending on the settings you make. Moreover, dilution happens because discussions break.
Anyways, no sorries. Here, we are a CiteHR family, and things do happen.
Regards,
Vishal
From India, Mumbai
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The reason why I gave that advice was that a lot of non-members view the posts. If you reveal your contacts here on the posts, it could prove harmful for you in the future. At member blogs, only members can access it depending on the settings you make. Moreover, dilution happens because discussions break.
Anyways, no sorries. Here, we are a CiteHR family, and things do happen.
Regards,
Vishal
From India, Mumbai
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Hey,
Let's get back to the discussion. Azmal, what about the JD for the salesperson? Can you share one with me if you have it? And Vishal, Azmal mentioned that you have something on perception. Can you share it with us on the forum?
Regards, Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Let's get back to the discussion. Azmal, what about the JD for the salesperson? Can you share one with me if you have it? And Vishal, Azmal mentioned that you have something on perception. Can you share it with us on the forum?
Regards, Aditi
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Deepali,
Hope you are fine. I am a Professor of HR and OB at an MBA institute in Ahmedabad. I hold a Ph.D. and am NET-JRF qualified as well. I completed my MBA with a major in HR and a minor in Marketing from Jaipur. Additionally, I have a Postgraduate Diploma in Hospital and Health Management from Symbiosis Pune.
My article on stress management was published in the Journal of Health Management.
What more would you like to know about me?
Bye,
Ekta
From India, Ahmadabad
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Hope you are fine. I am a Professor of HR and OB at an MBA institute in Ahmedabad. I hold a Ph.D. and am NET-JRF qualified as well. I completed my MBA with a major in HR and a minor in Marketing from Jaipur. Additionally, I have a Postgraduate Diploma in Hospital and Health Management from Symbiosis Pune.
My article on stress management was published in the Journal of Health Management.
What more would you like to know about me?
Bye,
Ekta
From India, Ahmadabad
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Hi, everybody out there,
Well, going through everyone's views, I liked what Rajnish said. Recruitment is an HR function that involves sales activities in the initial stages. For this, consultancies are the best example as recruitment executives have to achieve the targets and work accordingly.
Dips
From India, Delhi
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Well, going through everyone's views, I liked what Rajnish said. Recruitment is an HR function that involves sales activities in the initial stages. For this, consultancies are the best example as recruitment executives have to achieve the targets and work accordingly.
Dips
From India, Delhi
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Hi all, let's not shoot global faux pros.
Stage 1: The Vacancy
Here, nothing of the sales grid and its core activity is being used. It's a hardcore HR activity where we, as HR professionals, try to evaluate and plan for that open position business-wise/grade-wise (split indent analysis) and create a competency matrix to seek a profile match. No sales activity.
Stage 2: Recruitment and Selection Planning Meeting
Here, we schedule things like who takes part and roles/responsibilities, the use of external assessors, and the use of selection tests. Again, a pure operational approach to scaling development for behavioral templates. No sales activity.
Stage 3: Advertising the Post
Here, a bit of sales is being used, making HR a strategic business unit to facilitate different functions. Things like:
- Information pack for applicants
- Application forms
- Visiting the organization/campus is being followed
- Sourcing (here more of marketing functions are adhered to rather than sales) like activating special consultants, fetching different career portals, and lots more.
Stage 4: Shortlisting the Candidates
I don't think profile sampling and rejection feedback for special cluster requirements are sales activities, right?
Stage 5: The Interview/Assessment Stage
- Invitation to interview
- Pre-interview preparation
- The interview process
- Trained interviewers
- Composition of the panel
- Declaring an interest
- Venue
- Asking questions
- Taking notes at the interview
I really again don't think you can push sales on any of the above fittings, and the interview, as per me, is only a deliverable for candidates, not for you as a recruiting organization.
Stage 6: The Selection Decision
- References
- Types of reference required
Stage 7: The Appointment
- Orientation
- Responding to requests for feedback
- Who should give the information
- What information should be given
See, think from an HR perspective. However, links can be made between a cat and a tiger, but a cat is a cat and a tiger remains a tiger. What do you say HR fieroz? Please don't dilute HR as it is already being perceived as a cost-centric function. Let's make it more versatile.
Animesh
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Stage 1: The Vacancy
Here, nothing of the sales grid and its core activity is being used. It's a hardcore HR activity where we, as HR professionals, try to evaluate and plan for that open position business-wise/grade-wise (split indent analysis) and create a competency matrix to seek a profile match. No sales activity.
Stage 2: Recruitment and Selection Planning Meeting
Here, we schedule things like who takes part and roles/responsibilities, the use of external assessors, and the use of selection tests. Again, a pure operational approach to scaling development for behavioral templates. No sales activity.
Stage 3: Advertising the Post
Here, a bit of sales is being used, making HR a strategic business unit to facilitate different functions. Things like:
- Information pack for applicants
- Application forms
- Visiting the organization/campus is being followed
- Sourcing (here more of marketing functions are adhered to rather than sales) like activating special consultants, fetching different career portals, and lots more.
Stage 4: Shortlisting the Candidates
I don't think profile sampling and rejection feedback for special cluster requirements are sales activities, right?
Stage 5: The Interview/Assessment Stage
- Invitation to interview
- Pre-interview preparation
- The interview process
- Trained interviewers
- Composition of the panel
- Declaring an interest
- Venue
- Asking questions
- Taking notes at the interview
I really again don't think you can push sales on any of the above fittings, and the interview, as per me, is only a deliverable for candidates, not for you as a recruiting organization.
Stage 6: The Selection Decision
- References
- Types of reference required
Stage 7: The Appointment
- Orientation
- Responding to requests for feedback
- Who should give the information
- What information should be given
See, think from an HR perspective. However, links can be made between a cat and a tiger, but a cat is a cat and a tiger remains a tiger. What do you say HR fieroz? Please don't dilute HR as it is already being perceived as a cost-centric function. Let's make it more versatile.
Animesh
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Hi Animesh
I would ask a very basic question... Why we are basics of Marketing, Operations, HR, Finance, OB, IT etc in MBA when actually we are going to take only one of them....
The reason is that all are inter-connected.. If you try to look at HR from only one point of view... [Pick up a quote from Quote's Dictionary... I don't want to put it by myself]
An HR Guy should know and practice all the basics of different specialities
1. Marketing / Sales : Lots have been discussed and the debate can still go on [Toffee / Coffee = Coffee Bite]
2. Finance : Can you undermine the fact that the cost to the company and ROI are important aspects of HR
3. Operations: It is an integral part of any organization, so no need to discuss any further...
The point here I am trying to make is that.... there is nothing called HR / Sales / Operations / Finance work..
It is just your work profile... and you need to manage your own mix of various skills to do your work efficiently... In which branch these skills have been taught is not of much importance...
As for making it more versatile... The Professional himself has to be a versatile person and should have a broader perspective of the entire business and not just the HR perspective
From India, Ahmadabad
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I would ask a very basic question... Why we are basics of Marketing, Operations, HR, Finance, OB, IT etc in MBA when actually we are going to take only one of them....
The reason is that all are inter-connected.. If you try to look at HR from only one point of view... [Pick up a quote from Quote's Dictionary... I don't want to put it by myself]
An HR Guy should know and practice all the basics of different specialities
1. Marketing / Sales : Lots have been discussed and the debate can still go on [Toffee / Coffee = Coffee Bite]
2. Finance : Can you undermine the fact that the cost to the company and ROI are important aspects of HR
3. Operations: It is an integral part of any organization, so no need to discuss any further...
The point here I am trying to make is that.... there is nothing called HR / Sales / Operations / Finance work..
It is just your work profile... and you need to manage your own mix of various skills to do your work efficiently... In which branch these skills have been taught is not of much importance...
As for making it more versatile... The Professional himself has to be a versatile person and should have a broader perspective of the entire business and not just the HR perspective
From India, Ahmadabad
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Agreed, I too believe two years of campus experience is not letting me source enough of it. General management courses are just to enhance your expertise in varied fields, so whether you are in finance, marketing, operations, or HR, don't be a novice to other functional certifications. However, it doesn't give you core competency in all these fields. It just provides you with a holistic view and makes you a strategic business allocator. For instance, if you need support from a line function, why, if you interview for sales, as an HR professional, do you have to make panel decisions inviting sales line managers? This is because you can only appraise him from an HR perspective; the rest will be handled by the concerned business head, not you.
Apart from general management subjects, your specializations demand so much from you as an MBA.
You're correct that your work profile should involve a mix of all areas, but HR has its own procedural aspects. Can someone from marketing or sales handle compensation management or employee relationships (laws and legal aspects like discharge and dismissal)?
Can you, as an HR professional, ever think of having expertise in making product mapping charts and cost allocations? Just mark my words – can you do this without having, let's say, 1 or 2 years of experience?
So, HR should indeed be strategic, yet at the same time, it's a different core of business action.
Many B-schools have general management schemes, where in the final year you opt for specialization. Here, you dilute your knowledge, but if you are from XL/TISS/Symbi, you'll find they have segmented courses for 2 years, which will give you a more focused inclination and enhanced knowledge for HR.
What do you think?
PS: Thanks, Dips, but do give your inputs.
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Apart from general management subjects, your specializations demand so much from you as an MBA.
You're correct that your work profile should involve a mix of all areas, but HR has its own procedural aspects. Can someone from marketing or sales handle compensation management or employee relationships (laws and legal aspects like discharge and dismissal)?
Can you, as an HR professional, ever think of having expertise in making product mapping charts and cost allocations? Just mark my words – can you do this without having, let's say, 1 or 2 years of experience?
So, HR should indeed be strategic, yet at the same time, it's a different core of business action.
Many B-schools have general management schemes, where in the final year you opt for specialization. Here, you dilute your knowledge, but if you are from XL/TISS/Symbi, you'll find they have segmented courses for 2 years, which will give you a more focused inclination and enhanced knowledge for HR.
What do you think?
PS: Thanks, Dips, but do give your inputs.
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"Koi Bhi Ho Sales ya HR Rahenge to Management Ke bachhe Hi" :)
English: "Be it Sales or HR, it always remains a child of Management."
Hi to all, I think! I don't think too much, but you people are forcing me to think more.
RECRUITMENT SALES???
--------------------------------
NO: if it is done without the help of any third party like consultants, recruitment companies, and (job sites, maybe).
If the HR department of a company is handling "ALL RECRUITMENT," then it is NOT SALES; it is thus "THE FUNCTION OF THE HR DEPARTMENT."
--------------------------------
YES: If recruitment is done with the help of consultants, a third party, etc., then the organization that is availing the "SERVICES" of these individuals (consultants, third party), and these individuals are charging MONEY for their SERVICES.
"SELLING OF SERVICES" applies here :) Got my point!
ONE THING MORE
"RECRUITMENT AND SELECTION ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS"; THEY ARE CLOSELY RELATED BUT NOT SIMILAR."
Your consultant can have a role in the recruitment process, but can this consultant select your candidate? NO! Only the people in your organization can select a candidate for a job.
"SELECTION CANNOT BE DONE FROM OUTSIDE, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN."
"SELECTION CANNOT BE OUTSOURCED, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN."
Thanks,
Manu Sharma
From India, New Delhi
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English: "Be it Sales or HR, it always remains a child of Management."
Hi to all, I think! I don't think too much, but you people are forcing me to think more.
RECRUITMENT SALES???
--------------------------------
NO: if it is done without the help of any third party like consultants, recruitment companies, and (job sites, maybe).
If the HR department of a company is handling "ALL RECRUITMENT," then it is NOT SALES; it is thus "THE FUNCTION OF THE HR DEPARTMENT."
--------------------------------
YES: If recruitment is done with the help of consultants, a third party, etc., then the organization that is availing the "SERVICES" of these individuals (consultants, third party), and these individuals are charging MONEY for their SERVICES.
"SELLING OF SERVICES" applies here :) Got my point!
ONE THING MORE
"RECRUITMENT AND SELECTION ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS"; THEY ARE CLOSELY RELATED BUT NOT SIMILAR."
Your consultant can have a role in the recruitment process, but can this consultant select your candidate? NO! Only the people in your organization can select a candidate for a job.
"SELECTION CANNOT BE DONE FROM OUTSIDE, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN."
"SELECTION CANNOT BE OUTSOURCED, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN."
Thanks,
Manu Sharma
From India, New Delhi
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Dear Amjal,
I understand your earlier contents. I hope this article suffices for our mergers. Please go through it, it's for you, and I don't have any deviations from you. Junta, spare some time to go through the article.
Business is fundamentally simple. It's we who make it complicated. When you are able to cut to the core, say, peel away the layers to get to the essence, business is quite straightforward. It is essentially about how you create value for the customer and how you are able to capture that value, as much of it, at as low a cost as possible. What happens over a period of time is that we put several layers around the core essence of business, whether it is at the workplace or a B-school. As a result, we tend to get into a complexity that is our own creation.
If you look at some of the great business leaders, they have stuck to or built the core proposition. They know what value proposition they want to give the customer and single-handedly drive their business towards it in an extremely focused manner. If you are able to do that, I think half your problem is solved. So cut out all the power points - if you have something to say, be precise, clear, and simple. Take the example of telegrams for which we pay by the word. Every extra word has a cost to it. Similarly, I strongly believe that there is a cost you pay for complexity.
At B-schools or the workplace, people somehow feel that if you are able to complicate things, you are able to create more reason for your existence. There is a tendency to get seduced by the methodologies and tools and lay on a lot of theories and jargon that complicates matters. You should not fall in love with the tools just because you are using them. Ask yourself: how are these tools going to enable me? Will they assist me in creating and capturing value proposition? If they don't, throw them out.
Having said that, however, B-schools do have lessons to teach. The most important thing that a good B-school helps you with is that it brings you in close contact with the best talent in the country. This enhances your mental faculties and stimulates your thinking. If you look at a business, it is fundamentally about theoretical experiences, sitting back and reflecting on those experiences and learning from them. What you need to do, however, is focus on what value you derive from what you are taught. Often, a lot of students - or even young professionals, for that matter - get a high level of comfort in living with the latest buzzwords and jargon. That often holds you back from the truth.
So often in the first 10 years of your career, you keep filling ditches. But it's only after you empty those ditches, that is, unlearn a lot of things you have been taught, that you manage to get to the core proposition. So what is it that we need to succeed in business? First comes hunger; that is, how hungry you are to get to your goal. Even if you are not outstandingly brilliant, but have the hunger to succeed, it makes a lot of difference. As Martina Navratilova put it - and you don't always have to learn from the Tom Peters and Peter Druckers - "People who talk about there being no winners or losers are losers themselves."
Whenever I recruit people, I try to find out how hungry they are - for the job, achieving certain objectives, or changing the world. If that drive is there, half the battle is already won. Training, investing in the person, and giving him a clear direction come later. We often talk about the four Ps in business, that is, product, price, place, and promotion. It is a standard theme in B-school education - you learn it every day.
I have realized that there are two more Ps. The fifth P is "people". According to David Ogilvy, "If you hire people who are better than you, then over a period of time, you will be in the company of giants." On the other hand, if you hire someone smaller than you, and if he hires someone smaller than him, and so on, you'll soon be running a company of pygmies! So to build a sound business, you need to get the best people, both in terms of quality and their hunger to succeed. The sixth P is "pace". This is particularly relevant when we look at the technology business where products get obsolete every three months. A new technology comes out almost every other year and it changes the playing field. In this industry, the people who succeed are those who unlearn the past quickly and move on to adapt to what the future offers.
It may take two years to get to the point where you think you are absolutely right - by when you realize that the market has passed you by. So, it is essential that you change all the time, and the faster you change the better it is. That means that you probably need to make some trade-offs in terms of educated guesses and risks. But then business is all about taking risks. You calibrate the risk to the pay-off. While B-schools talk a lot about risk management, at the end of the day it's the decision (risk) that you take in the real world that counts. These decisions have consequences - for you, your employees, your company, and so on. But if you don't take those decisions, it can often be a bigger risk. For instance, Intel was initially into memory chips, but then it realized that its business was taking a beating since the technology was fast becoming obsolete. It took a risk and entered the microprocessor business. The risk paid off.
When you are working in large organizations, one of the biggest skills that stands you in good stead is not only knowing how to sell ideas but also sell yourself in the right way. All B-schools teach you how to sell products - everything from chewing gum to cars. But no B-school really tells you how to sell yourself. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to sell yourself to the organization, to your customers, and to the people who work for you. In a few months of joining an organization, you are branded, which probably stays with you as you climb up the ladder. You must be clear about what kind of brand you want to be.
Ravi Swaminathan is vice president, HP, Personal Systems Group. He is an alumnus of the Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad, from where he graduated in 1977.
Animesh
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I understand your earlier contents. I hope this article suffices for our mergers. Please go through it, it's for you, and I don't have any deviations from you. Junta, spare some time to go through the article.
Business is fundamentally simple. It's we who make it complicated. When you are able to cut to the core, say, peel away the layers to get to the essence, business is quite straightforward. It is essentially about how you create value for the customer and how you are able to capture that value, as much of it, at as low a cost as possible. What happens over a period of time is that we put several layers around the core essence of business, whether it is at the workplace or a B-school. As a result, we tend to get into a complexity that is our own creation.
If you look at some of the great business leaders, they have stuck to or built the core proposition. They know what value proposition they want to give the customer and single-handedly drive their business towards it in an extremely focused manner. If you are able to do that, I think half your problem is solved. So cut out all the power points - if you have something to say, be precise, clear, and simple. Take the example of telegrams for which we pay by the word. Every extra word has a cost to it. Similarly, I strongly believe that there is a cost you pay for complexity.
At B-schools or the workplace, people somehow feel that if you are able to complicate things, you are able to create more reason for your existence. There is a tendency to get seduced by the methodologies and tools and lay on a lot of theories and jargon that complicates matters. You should not fall in love with the tools just because you are using them. Ask yourself: how are these tools going to enable me? Will they assist me in creating and capturing value proposition? If they don't, throw them out.
Having said that, however, B-schools do have lessons to teach. The most important thing that a good B-school helps you with is that it brings you in close contact with the best talent in the country. This enhances your mental faculties and stimulates your thinking. If you look at a business, it is fundamentally about theoretical experiences, sitting back and reflecting on those experiences and learning from them. What you need to do, however, is focus on what value you derive from what you are taught. Often, a lot of students - or even young professionals, for that matter - get a high level of comfort in living with the latest buzzwords and jargon. That often holds you back from the truth.
So often in the first 10 years of your career, you keep filling ditches. But it's only after you empty those ditches, that is, unlearn a lot of things you have been taught, that you manage to get to the core proposition. So what is it that we need to succeed in business? First comes hunger; that is, how hungry you are to get to your goal. Even if you are not outstandingly brilliant, but have the hunger to succeed, it makes a lot of difference. As Martina Navratilova put it - and you don't always have to learn from the Tom Peters and Peter Druckers - "People who talk about there being no winners or losers are losers themselves."
Whenever I recruit people, I try to find out how hungry they are - for the job, achieving certain objectives, or changing the world. If that drive is there, half the battle is already won. Training, investing in the person, and giving him a clear direction come later. We often talk about the four Ps in business, that is, product, price, place, and promotion. It is a standard theme in B-school education - you learn it every day.
I have realized that there are two more Ps. The fifth P is "people". According to David Ogilvy, "If you hire people who are better than you, then over a period of time, you will be in the company of giants." On the other hand, if you hire someone smaller than you, and if he hires someone smaller than him, and so on, you'll soon be running a company of pygmies! So to build a sound business, you need to get the best people, both in terms of quality and their hunger to succeed. The sixth P is "pace". This is particularly relevant when we look at the technology business where products get obsolete every three months. A new technology comes out almost every other year and it changes the playing field. In this industry, the people who succeed are those who unlearn the past quickly and move on to adapt to what the future offers.
It may take two years to get to the point where you think you are absolutely right - by when you realize that the market has passed you by. So, it is essential that you change all the time, and the faster you change the better it is. That means that you probably need to make some trade-offs in terms of educated guesses and risks. But then business is all about taking risks. You calibrate the risk to the pay-off. While B-schools talk a lot about risk management, at the end of the day it's the decision (risk) that you take in the real world that counts. These decisions have consequences - for you, your employees, your company, and so on. But if you don't take those decisions, it can often be a bigger risk. For instance, Intel was initially into memory chips, but then it realized that its business was taking a beating since the technology was fast becoming obsolete. It took a risk and entered the microprocessor business. The risk paid off.
When you are working in large organizations, one of the biggest skills that stands you in good stead is not only knowing how to sell ideas but also sell yourself in the right way. All B-schools teach you how to sell products - everything from chewing gum to cars. But no B-school really tells you how to sell yourself. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to sell yourself to the organization, to your customers, and to the people who work for you. In a few months of joining an organization, you are branded, which probably stays with you as you climb up the ladder. You must be clear about what kind of brand you want to be.
Ravi Swaminathan is vice president, HP, Personal Systems Group. He is an alumnus of the Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad, from where he graduated in 1977.
Animesh
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Hi Animesh,
After a hot discussion, let me cool down. I think of starting a new thread on "What's there in the Name." Ajmal by Amjal or Azmal or Aziz would still remain Ajmal, right? And as for the article, yes, it is very much what I was trying to portray. I think that we are now quite in harmony with the thoughts on this subject.
From India, Ahmadabad
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After a hot discussion, let me cool down. I think of starting a new thread on "What's there in the Name." Ajmal by Amjal or Azmal or Aziz would still remain Ajmal, right? And as for the article, yes, it is very much what I was trying to portray. I think that we are now quite in harmony with the thoughts on this subject.
From India, Ahmadabad
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HR professionals are soo adept that they can also upgrade celeron to P-4 isnt it dude ??/ joking :lol: animesh
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Ya animesh, I agree that HR people are quite adept... But please be careful at typing my name.... I don’t like it to be misspelled. I am quite attached my name
From India, Ahmadabad
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From India, Ahmadabad
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See this topic carefully "Recruitments: Sales or HR" and Don’t get Emotional, AllOut Le Ayen! :)
From India, New Delhi
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From India, New Delhi
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Hi Dear,
In my point of view, recruitment is core HR, but nowadays, due to their competency, it is being utilized similarly to sales. The main job of a recruiter is to reduce the workload of the HR Manager by 99%. Sometimes it may reach that extent; sometimes it may not reach that level, but it surely helps the HR person. So, in the end, I want to say that it is core HR.
Hope this feedback is helpful.
Ritesh
From India, New Delhi
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In my point of view, recruitment is core HR, but nowadays, due to their competency, it is being utilized similarly to sales. The main job of a recruiter is to reduce the workload of the HR Manager by 99%. Sometimes it may reach that extent; sometimes it may not reach that level, but it surely helps the HR person. So, in the end, I want to say that it is core HR.
Hope this feedback is helpful.
Ritesh
From India, New Delhi
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