Hello, guys,
I am a new member here. I have a question for you all.
Q: I have a friend who was recently terminated because her teammates, who are also recruiters, were saying negative things about her to her boss and undermining her credibility. Her boss did not investigate the issue but instead wrote her up based on the information provided. One day, her boss simply called her and terminated her without valid reasoning. The issue is that my friend, who was terminated, signed the write-up she was given. Could she have done something differently? Any advice we can offer? Can she still dispute anything after six months, even though employment is at-will here in Illinois?
Thank you.
From United States, New York
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I am a new member here. I have a question for you all.
Q: I have a friend who was recently terminated because her teammates, who are also recruiters, were saying negative things about her to her boss and undermining her credibility. Her boss did not investigate the issue but instead wrote her up based on the information provided. One day, her boss simply called her and terminated her without valid reasoning. The issue is that my friend, who was terminated, signed the write-up she was given. Could she have done something differently? Any advice we can offer? Can she still dispute anything after six months, even though employment is at-will here in Illinois?
Thank you.
From United States, New York
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Hi Jpg_2020,
"I am a new member here."
Welcome to the forum.
"Q: I have a friend that was recently terminated because of her teammates who work with her, who are recruiters as well. They were saying bad things about her to her boss and discrediting her. Her boss never investigated the issue but was just writing her up based on everything that was being said. One day, her boss just called her and terminated her without valid reasoning. The issue is that my friend, who was terminated, signed the write-up she was given. Could she have done something different? Any advice we can get? Can she still dispute anything after six months?"
We are surprised to note this development and feel sorry for her.
Yes, she could have refused to sign the write-up. Besides, whenever there is an aberration in performance, it is the duty of the employer to address the issue holistically to ensure the employee's performance is improved.
In the normal course, it is advisable that the management issue a memo on this matter indicating the parameters or performance metrics desired with ample opportunities and a timeframe.
However, in the above case, the natural principles of justice and equal opportunities have not been followed.
Since you are based in the US where the legal systems and torts are far more advanced and active than in any other nation, we would suggest that you contact a local lawyer to guide you on the above issue. At least she can sue them for harassment and being forced/pressured to sign the write-up or settle for a lump sum payment as compensation at least.
Hope this helps, and please let us know the progress of the same.
Best Wishes,
Rajat
From India, Pune
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108"I am a new member here."
Welcome to the forum.
"Q: I have a friend that was recently terminated because of her teammates who work with her, who are recruiters as well. They were saying bad things about her to her boss and discrediting her. Her boss never investigated the issue but was just writing her up based on everything that was being said. One day, her boss just called her and terminated her without valid reasoning. The issue is that my friend, who was terminated, signed the write-up she was given. Could she have done something different? Any advice we can get? Can she still dispute anything after six months?"
We are surprised to note this development and feel sorry for her.
Yes, she could have refused to sign the write-up. Besides, whenever there is an aberration in performance, it is the duty of the employer to address the issue holistically to ensure the employee's performance is improved.
In the normal course, it is advisable that the management issue a memo on this matter indicating the parameters or performance metrics desired with ample opportunities and a timeframe.
However, in the above case, the natural principles of justice and equal opportunities have not been followed.
Since you are based in the US where the legal systems and torts are far more advanced and active than in any other nation, we would suggest that you contact a local lawyer to guide you on the above issue. At least she can sue them for harassment and being forced/pressured to sign the write-up or settle for a lump sum payment as compensation at least.
Hope this helps, and please let us know the progress of the same.
Best Wishes,
Rajat
From India, Pune
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Hi Rajat,
When I was at Coke, I saw this type of case. Usually, employers would try to coerce employees into resigning instead of terminating them when they wished to do so. If the employee did not resign willingly, they would find other ways to force a resignation. This practice is prevalent. If the employer terminated her without providing any opportunity to explain her side, she could also seek recourse through the legal system, but the benefits would be limited. She might receive some compensation, especially in the US where the laws may favor the employee. However, if this situation occurred in India, it is challenging to predict the outcome.
Regards, Sidheshwar
From India, Bangalore
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When I was at Coke, I saw this type of case. Usually, employers would try to coerce employees into resigning instead of terminating them when they wished to do so. If the employee did not resign willingly, they would find other ways to force a resignation. This practice is prevalent. If the employer terminated her without providing any opportunity to explain her side, she could also seek recourse through the legal system, but the benefits would be limited. She might receive some compensation, especially in the US where the laws may favor the employee. However, if this situation occurred in India, it is challenging to predict the outcome.
Regards, Sidheshwar
From India, Bangalore
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Hi Sidheshwar,
"When I was at Coke, I saw this type of case. Employers simply used to force resignations instead of terminations when they wanted to terminate an employee. If the employee did not resign, they would find other ways to compel them to resign. This technique is prevalent.
Yes, I agree. In my earlier stages of my career, I was a party to this to get rid of staff not wanted by management using similar methods. It is a devastating experience for the aggrieved party. Afterward, I made sure they were given adequate time, compensation, and placed them in other companies. A lot of counseling skills are required, along with deft management of the situation with top management.
"If they have terminated her without giving any opportunity to express, well, she can knock on the court door too, but she is not going to benefit. She will only get some compensation. If this happened in the US, something might be in favor of the employee. If it is the case in India, it is difficult to say anything."
Yes, I agree. Being in the US, she has ample opportunities to address her grievances through legal procedures. If she can create a prima facie case, I am sure she would be pursued by lawyers who see an opportunity for profit. However, in India, in a similar case, I would have said to forget the whole thing and MOVE ON.
Cheers,
Rajat
From India, Pune
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"When I was at Coke, I saw this type of case. Employers simply used to force resignations instead of terminations when they wanted to terminate an employee. If the employee did not resign, they would find other ways to compel them to resign. This technique is prevalent.
Yes, I agree. In my earlier stages of my career, I was a party to this to get rid of staff not wanted by management using similar methods. It is a devastating experience for the aggrieved party. Afterward, I made sure they were given adequate time, compensation, and placed them in other companies. A lot of counseling skills are required, along with deft management of the situation with top management.
"If they have terminated her without giving any opportunity to express, well, she can knock on the court door too, but she is not going to benefit. She will only get some compensation. If this happened in the US, something might be in favor of the employee. If it is the case in India, it is difficult to say anything."
Yes, I agree. Being in the US, she has ample opportunities to address her grievances through legal procedures. If she can create a prima facie case, I am sure she would be pursued by lawyers who see an opportunity for profit. However, in India, in a similar case, I would have said to forget the whole thing and MOVE ON.
Cheers,
Rajat
From India, Pune
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So how would she contest this situation? Is there any guidance that can be given to me to relate to her? Do you guys think she still has the potential to get some sort of compensation even though she was terminated in January of 2006? Is it too late?
As far as her obtaining another job, how should she go about still using her previous employer as a reference?
From United States, New York
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As far as her obtaining another job, how should she go about still using her previous employer as a reference?
From United States, New York
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I'm not clear as to the reasons for her termination. "Co-workers saying bad things about her" is not sufficient.
How long had she worked there? Was her performance evaluated? When was the last time? How was her performance rated? What "bad things" were being said? How old is she? Has she encountered any type of discrimination on the job? Has she encountered any inappropriate comments/actions by co-workers so as to establish a hostile work environment? The answers to the above will clarify the circumstances.
I think you are confusing Employment at Will with Right to Work. They are two separate concepts.
The "Employment at Will" doctrine is used only where there is no employment contract between the parties. In the past, employers could terminate for "good cause", "bad cause", or "no cause". As time passed, that unrestrained authority of the employer has been modified by various laws such as the Equal Employment Opportunity Act and Public Policy restrictions.
Right to Work allows employees to choose to join a Union in the workplace or not. It prohibits a "closed shop".
I'm assuming that the write-up was a Release. A document that protects the employer from any future action that could be taken by the ex-employee under various laws. For example, an allegation of sex/age/national origin discrimination. The ex-employee has to be given an opportunity (usually 10 working days) to review the Release and/or discuss it with an attorney.
Since she signed the write-up under duress, a case could be made that it was involuntary and therefore is invalid.
As far as using the former employer as a reference, she should be mindful of what will be provided to the inquiry. If the employer only provides dates of hire and responsibilities, there is no problem. However, if they go beyond that and indicate that she was terminated without mentioning the reasons, or where the reasons were not true, then your friend may have sufficient cause to pursue a civil case.
Having said all that, under the EEO guidelines, your friend has 180 days to file a complaint. She could check with the EEO to determine if there are special circumstances which would waive/extend the time limit.
In any case, I would suggest that she contact a labor lawyer for consultation.
Hope this helps.
PALADIN
From United States,
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How long had she worked there? Was her performance evaluated? When was the last time? How was her performance rated? What "bad things" were being said? How old is she? Has she encountered any type of discrimination on the job? Has she encountered any inappropriate comments/actions by co-workers so as to establish a hostile work environment? The answers to the above will clarify the circumstances.
I think you are confusing Employment at Will with Right to Work. They are two separate concepts.
The "Employment at Will" doctrine is used only where there is no employment contract between the parties. In the past, employers could terminate for "good cause", "bad cause", or "no cause". As time passed, that unrestrained authority of the employer has been modified by various laws such as the Equal Employment Opportunity Act and Public Policy restrictions.
Right to Work allows employees to choose to join a Union in the workplace or not. It prohibits a "closed shop".
I'm assuming that the write-up was a Release. A document that protects the employer from any future action that could be taken by the ex-employee under various laws. For example, an allegation of sex/age/national origin discrimination. The ex-employee has to be given an opportunity (usually 10 working days) to review the Release and/or discuss it with an attorney.
Since she signed the write-up under duress, a case could be made that it was involuntary and therefore is invalid.
As far as using the former employer as a reference, she should be mindful of what will be provided to the inquiry. If the employer only provides dates of hire and responsibilities, there is no problem. However, if they go beyond that and indicate that she was terminated without mentioning the reasons, or where the reasons were not true, then your friend may have sufficient cause to pursue a civil case.
Having said all that, under the EEO guidelines, your friend has 180 days to file a complaint. She could check with the EEO to determine if there are special circumstances which would waive/extend the time limit.
In any case, I would suggest that she contact a labor lawyer for consultation.
Hope this helps.
PALADIN
From United States,
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So now my question is, if she was termed in Jan of 2006 can she somehow try to get her job back?? if she persues some typeof investigation?? is it to late form then to now
From United States, New York
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From United States, New York
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The reason for her being termed was because her "co-workers" - the other 2 recruiters - did not like the fact that she was being very innovative. Not only that, she had other great qualifications such as being bilingual in Spanish and she was promoted to a recruiter from within the company after only being in her previous role for only 6 months. So, she was doing great stuff until she ended up in HR and had to deal with all the nonsense!
My personal issue with this is that she is very talented. She obviously proved herself because she was promoted, demonstrating proven results. For them to do that to her was a slap in the face after she was very loyal to that company. Also, because she was in a remote location, in other words, her manager sat in another state and he didn't even bother to go personally and investigate it.
From United States, New York
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My personal issue with this is that she is very talented. She obviously proved herself because she was promoted, demonstrating proven results. For them to do that to her was a slap in the face after she was very loyal to that company. Also, because she was in a remote location, in other words, her manager sat in another state and he didn't even bother to go personally and investigate it.
From United States, New York
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Dear JPG & Paladin,
Please reply to my query.
1) Suppose I am the boss of the HR department and very close to the company MD or a prominent person.
2) Mr. A is a very good employee whose performance is excellent.
3) As the HR head or boss, I am instructing you to terminate the service of Mr. A, or otherwise, I will terminate your service with sufficient cause shown.
Now, please reply, what will you do?
Regards,
Sidheshwar
India
From India, Bangalore
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Please reply to my query.
1) Suppose I am the boss of the HR department and very close to the company MD or a prominent person.
2) Mr. A is a very good employee whose performance is excellent.
3) As the HR head or boss, I am instructing you to terminate the service of Mr. A, or otherwise, I will terminate your service with sufficient cause shown.
Now, please reply, what will you do?
Regards,
Sidheshwar
India
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Sidhu1972:
I have had the good fortune never to be associated with that type of boss. I'm sure they are out there, but they get discovered very quickly and are expelled from the organization (and hopefully the profession).
So, to address your hypothetical situation:
I would first review employee A's file to determine if there were any negative entries which would form the basis of any discipline up to and including termination. If I found none, I would document his accomplishments, accolades, and personal assessments.
Unless and until the boss can show some evidence of why employee A should be fired (reduction in force, major misconduct, failure to comply with lawful orders, and the like), aside from his obvious abuse of his (the boss's) authority/power, I would refuse, but in a manner which would not be insubordinate. I would tell the boss, politely, that if you want him/her terminated, do it yourself. "I choose not to".
If the boss reiterates his threat to terminate me:
First, I would point out that I am equal to or better in performance and people skills than employee A (and for that matter the boss himself). I would then inquire as to the nature of the "sufficient cause". In addition, I would inform him that his actions would place undue liability on the organization, since if he carried forward with his threat, I would sue for unjust termination, and since I am over 40 years of age, I would file a charge with the EEOC based on age discrimination. In both suits, I would seek significant monetary penalties (compensatory as well as punitive). Finally, I would inform him that since he may place such liability on the organization, my duty and obligation to the organization leaves me no choice but to report his intention to the President of the Company.
If he did, in fact, terminate me, my next steps would be:
A. Document the meeting. Time, place, date, persons present and dialogue, as close as possible. Especially that part of the conversation where he fired me.
B. Assemble all relevant documentation - The "minutes" of the meeting with the boss, a brief overview of Employee A's work record, an overview of my work record.
C. Attempt to arrange a meeting with the President of the Company. If I have been ordered to leave the premises by the boss, I would send a letter to the President with all documents enclosed (By Certified Mail, with return receipt requested).
D. Contact a competent labor attorney to discuss possible next steps regarding a civil suit.
E. Go to the nearest Equal Employment Office and file an age discrimination charge. (Other government agencies to file various allegations - OSHA = unsafe working conditions both physically and environmentally; Wage and Hour = Failure to pay overtime; requesting employees to "donate" hours; etc.).
F. Contact TV and newspapers (reporters love this kind of story; the "little guy" v. the "deep pockets, unfeeling corporation") - Get the issue aired in the court of public opinion!!!
I believe that if enough pressure is brought to bear, the organization will realize that the boss acted in a manner which was not only unprofessional but could have the potential of damaging the company's reputation in the eyes of customers and the public (who buys the product).
One person as opposed to millions in lost sales, court-imposed fines, disruption of the business, and lowered employee morale - that's what is called a "no-brainer" - what would you do?
PALADIN
From United States,
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I have had the good fortune never to be associated with that type of boss. I'm sure they are out there, but they get discovered very quickly and are expelled from the organization (and hopefully the profession).
So, to address your hypothetical situation:
I would first review employee A's file to determine if there were any negative entries which would form the basis of any discipline up to and including termination. If I found none, I would document his accomplishments, accolades, and personal assessments.
Unless and until the boss can show some evidence of why employee A should be fired (reduction in force, major misconduct, failure to comply with lawful orders, and the like), aside from his obvious abuse of his (the boss's) authority/power, I would refuse, but in a manner which would not be insubordinate. I would tell the boss, politely, that if you want him/her terminated, do it yourself. "I choose not to".
If the boss reiterates his threat to terminate me:
First, I would point out that I am equal to or better in performance and people skills than employee A (and for that matter the boss himself). I would then inquire as to the nature of the "sufficient cause". In addition, I would inform him that his actions would place undue liability on the organization, since if he carried forward with his threat, I would sue for unjust termination, and since I am over 40 years of age, I would file a charge with the EEOC based on age discrimination. In both suits, I would seek significant monetary penalties (compensatory as well as punitive). Finally, I would inform him that since he may place such liability on the organization, my duty and obligation to the organization leaves me no choice but to report his intention to the President of the Company.
If he did, in fact, terminate me, my next steps would be:
A. Document the meeting. Time, place, date, persons present and dialogue, as close as possible. Especially that part of the conversation where he fired me.
B. Assemble all relevant documentation - The "minutes" of the meeting with the boss, a brief overview of Employee A's work record, an overview of my work record.
C. Attempt to arrange a meeting with the President of the Company. If I have been ordered to leave the premises by the boss, I would send a letter to the President with all documents enclosed (By Certified Mail, with return receipt requested).
D. Contact a competent labor attorney to discuss possible next steps regarding a civil suit.
E. Go to the nearest Equal Employment Office and file an age discrimination charge. (Other government agencies to file various allegations - OSHA = unsafe working conditions both physically and environmentally; Wage and Hour = Failure to pay overtime; requesting employees to "donate" hours; etc.).
F. Contact TV and newspapers (reporters love this kind of story; the "little guy" v. the "deep pockets, unfeeling corporation") - Get the issue aired in the court of public opinion!!!
I believe that if enough pressure is brought to bear, the organization will realize that the boss acted in a manner which was not only unprofessional but could have the potential of damaging the company's reputation in the eyes of customers and the public (who buys the product).
One person as opposed to millions in lost sales, court-imposed fines, disruption of the business, and lowered employee morale - that's what is called a "no-brainer" - what would you do?
PALADIN
From United States,
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Dear JPG,
I would suggest that your friend go to the nearest EEOC office (State or Federal) and attempt to file a complaint. She may get a sympathetic Case Worker who would extend the time limits because your friend was not aware of the law. (Did she happen to notice an Equal Employment Opportunity poster in the workplace??)
In addition, she can look for an employment attorney (look in the yellow pages or call the local Bar Association for a referral) to discuss a possible unjust termination civil suit.
Paladin
From United States,
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I would suggest that your friend go to the nearest EEOC office (State or Federal) and attempt to file a complaint. She may get a sympathetic Case Worker who would extend the time limits because your friend was not aware of the law. (Did she happen to notice an Equal Employment Opportunity poster in the workplace??)
In addition, she can look for an employment attorney (look in the yellow pages or call the local Bar Association for a referral) to discuss a possible unjust termination civil suit.
Paladin
From United States,
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Dear Paladin,
Personally, I appreciate your concern to not deprive Mr. A.
You are like a social worker in place of... Please don't mind.
You will sacrifice for injustice.
I would do the same as you.
In addition to that, the following are the options too:
1) First, I will consult Mr. A and convey the intention of my boss.
2) I will try to find a substitute for Mr. A, whether available in the organization or not.
3) I will prepare a confidential report that will go to higher management.
4) I will do a lot of documentation as records, as you suggested.
5) I will try to develop a situation for the termination of the boss in place of mine or Mr. A.
6) Being an individual, I will try to convince my boss not to do such injustice.
All the above-mentioned options, I will do in proper order.
Despite all efforts, if the situation leads to termination (the boss can terminate on confidential grounds), I will resign immediately with a sufficient notice period. I will not harm my image either.
Anyway, it's my opinion.
Your action is better than mine.
Note: I will try to save Mr. A and myself and try for the termination of the boss because his actions are against the organization.
Regards,
Sidheshwar
From India, Bangalore
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Personally, I appreciate your concern to not deprive Mr. A.
You are like a social worker in place of... Please don't mind.
You will sacrifice for injustice.
I would do the same as you.
In addition to that, the following are the options too:
1) First, I will consult Mr. A and convey the intention of my boss.
2) I will try to find a substitute for Mr. A, whether available in the organization or not.
3) I will prepare a confidential report that will go to higher management.
4) I will do a lot of documentation as records, as you suggested.
5) I will try to develop a situation for the termination of the boss in place of mine or Mr. A.
6) Being an individual, I will try to convince my boss not to do such injustice.
All the above-mentioned options, I will do in proper order.
Despite all efforts, if the situation leads to termination (the boss can terminate on confidential grounds), I will resign immediately with a sufficient notice period. I will not harm my image either.
Anyway, it's my opinion.
Your action is better than mine.
Note: I will try to save Mr. A and myself and try for the termination of the boss because his actions are against the organization.
Regards,
Sidheshwar
From India, Bangalore
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Yes, certainly she can file a suit against the employer and even win, provided the lawyer she hires is good and can argue her case well. Praveen.
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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Dear Sidhu1972,
If the boss wants immediate action, you do not have time for options 1, 2, or 5. What do you do, aside from trying to convince the boss that his actions are unjust?
If you resign in order to save your reputation, what will your response be to the prospective employer when he or she asks why you resigned? The implication of resignation is that you were about to be fired for some indiscretion - poor performance, disruptive influence, or the like. Such a perception will be underscored with a background check (telephone interview with "the boss").
So the question remains, what do you do? Resign or confront the boss?
Paladin
From United States,
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If the boss wants immediate action, you do not have time for options 1, 2, or 5. What do you do, aside from trying to convince the boss that his actions are unjust?
If you resign in order to save your reputation, what will your response be to the prospective employer when he or she asks why you resigned? The implication of resignation is that you were about to be fired for some indiscretion - poor performance, disruptive influence, or the like. Such a perception will be underscored with a background check (telephone interview with "the boss").
So the question remains, what do you do? Resign or confront the boss?
Paladin
From United States,
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If a person is terminated and the reasons for the termination are due to "performance" but the performance is not being evaluated based on actual performance but on feedback that other co-workers are providing to your upper management, shouldn't there be an actual investigation done on the person being discredited? Would the ethical thing to do be to verify both parties to determine who is telling the truth?
In my friend's case, she was a recruiter but she reported to another staffing manager who was not in her remote location. One of her co-workers was not too fond of her, so she started saying negative things about her. My friend tried to escalate the situation and explain what was going on, but her words meant nothing to her manager. Instead, she was not only written up for everything but also outcasted from her team. When they had job fairs or any special activities, she was never asked for input on anything, and she was always the last one to find out about any special activities.
Can anyone share any guidance on what steps can be taken? Is there any senior management that can tell me what he or she would do in a scenario like this? How can this be argued in a civil court or with corporate management? Also, should she try to resolve this issue with someone in corporate before taking it to civil court?
From United States, New York
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In my friend's case, she was a recruiter but she reported to another staffing manager who was not in her remote location. One of her co-workers was not too fond of her, so she started saying negative things about her. My friend tried to escalate the situation and explain what was going on, but her words meant nothing to her manager. Instead, she was not only written up for everything but also outcasted from her team. When they had job fairs or any special activities, she was never asked for input on anything, and she was always the last one to find out about any special activities.
Can anyone share any guidance on what steps can be taken? Is there any senior management that can tell me what he or she would do in a scenario like this? How can this be argued in a civil court or with corporate management? Also, should she try to resolve this issue with someone in corporate before taking it to civil court?
From United States, New York
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She is 22 years old. Now she is no longer employed with the company, but she wants to pursue legal action. Should she try to get some sort of resolution with the company, or should she take this matter to a legal professional?
From United States, New York
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From United States, New York
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Dear,
My suggestion is not to get involved in legal proceedings, and she should try for another job without wasting time. Suppose she gets the job, why should she unnecessarily be harassed by lodging a complaint against the company? My suggestion is that if she is a government employee, then she should approach the court; otherwise, she should strive to secure another job. After obtaining a job, she can seek legal recourse if she feels the need to do so.
Please suggest to your friend to pursue another job first.
Regards,
Sidheshwar
From India, Bangalore
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My suggestion is not to get involved in legal proceedings, and she should try for another job without wasting time. Suppose she gets the job, why should she unnecessarily be harassed by lodging a complaint against the company? My suggestion is that if she is a government employee, then she should approach the court; otherwise, she should strive to secure another job. After obtaining a job, she can seek legal recourse if she feels the need to do so.
Please suggest to your friend to pursue another job first.
Regards,
Sidheshwar
From India, Bangalore
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