In our office, we found on a surveillance camera that one male staff member and one female staff member were using the same dress change room for 10 minutes. This is a breach of company policy regarding discipline. Please suggest how we should proceed with this case legally.
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Regards
From India, Madras
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4Thanks,
Regards
From India, Madras
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Hi Kindly go by the code of conduct of your organization. Also refer to clauses in the appointment letter which speak of discipline issues. Regards
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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HI YES . I go with Deepa’s point. No matter who they are , terminate them ASAP. THESE PEOPLE ARE SEVERE THREADS to the organization.
From United States, Santa Ana
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From United States, Santa Ana
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You have not mentioned the purpose for which the male and female employees were found using the same dress change room. Were they changing their clothes or compromising their positions for unethical purposes?
Process for Addressing Employee Misconduct
However, before terminating their services, you will have to observe the process and provisions prescribed in the employee conduct and discipline rules. This includes issuing a show cause notice to them, holding a domestic inquiry, and resorting to termination of services only if they are found guilty.
From India, Delhi
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Process for Addressing Employee Misconduct
However, before terminating their services, you will have to observe the process and provisions prescribed in the employee conduct and discipline rules. This includes issuing a show cause notice to them, holding a domestic inquiry, and resorting to termination of services only if they are found guilty.
From India, Delhi
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Mr. P.S. Dhingra has given sound suggestions. You cannot terminate any employee without conducting a domestic enquiry. Secondly, for termination purposes, "misconduct" has to be defined. The Supreme Court has ruled that any termination that does not fall within the purview of "misconduct" defined in the standing orders of the company is illegal. Therefore, my question is about having an explicit definition of misconduct regarding "using the same room to change the dress by persons of two opposite genders at the same time."
You might have prohibited the entry of either gender into the dress changing room of the other gender. However, is the transgression of this rule sufficient grounds for termination?
While writing the above facts, let me apprise you that I am not taking the side of the delinquent employee. My objective was to apprise you of the legal aspects of termination.
Performance and Reform Considerations
Secondly, how is the performance of the employee? Are the employees good performers? Can they be counseled and given a chance to reform? By using provisions of discipline like a sledgehammer, are we also crushing the option of reforming the employee?
Take a broader view and think twice before you terminate them. Yes, what they have done is wrong, but then by terminating the employee, will you get the same performance? By invoking harsh discipline, are we becoming sanctimonious? We live in the same world in which we have "Saans-bahu" soap operas. Most of these soaps have extramarital affairs as their leitmotif. How can you expect everybody to be free from the influence of the serials?
Changing Social Norms
Indian society is no longer what it used to be. The days of conservatism are gone. Take the case of a live-in relationship. In the last generation, it was unthinkable, but now it is there. Presently, in social media, news is circulating about a 67-year-old widowed politician who has fallen in love with a woman less than half his age. They plan to get married once the woman gets a divorce.
On one side, we are the liberals who cry hoarse for the rights of the LGBT community, and on the other side, we invoke the harshest rules for deviation. Where does workplace romance not happen? Unfortunately, this pair crossed the dividing line. Explore the possibility of bringing them back within the line.
Thanks,
Regards,
Dinesh V. Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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You might have prohibited the entry of either gender into the dress changing room of the other gender. However, is the transgression of this rule sufficient grounds for termination?
While writing the above facts, let me apprise you that I am not taking the side of the delinquent employee. My objective was to apprise you of the legal aspects of termination.
Performance and Reform Considerations
Secondly, how is the performance of the employee? Are the employees good performers? Can they be counseled and given a chance to reform? By using provisions of discipline like a sledgehammer, are we also crushing the option of reforming the employee?
Take a broader view and think twice before you terminate them. Yes, what they have done is wrong, but then by terminating the employee, will you get the same performance? By invoking harsh discipline, are we becoming sanctimonious? We live in the same world in which we have "Saans-bahu" soap operas. Most of these soaps have extramarital affairs as their leitmotif. How can you expect everybody to be free from the influence of the serials?
Changing Social Norms
Indian society is no longer what it used to be. The days of conservatism are gone. Take the case of a live-in relationship. In the last generation, it was unthinkable, but now it is there. Presently, in social media, news is circulating about a 67-year-old widowed politician who has fallen in love with a woman less than half his age. They plan to get married once the woman gets a divorce.
On one side, we are the liberals who cry hoarse for the rights of the LGBT community, and on the other side, we invoke the harshest rules for deviation. Where does workplace romance not happen? Unfortunately, this pair crossed the dividing line. Explore the possibility of bringing them back within the line.
Thanks,
Regards,
Dinesh V. Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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Totally agree with Dinesh. One can’t just terminate without following set legal procedure. In addition it is appropriate to try and visualise the larger picture.
From India, New Delhi
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From India, New Delhi
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Frankly, I think you owe it to this forum to give the full details of the situation. What is the locus standi of the two employees with respect to each other and with respect to the company? I presume they aren't man and wife—else you wouldn't be directing your thoughts towards the legal way. Are they co-employees planning to get married? Is either/each of them married otherwise? Was this a repetitive situation or the first time it happened? Or any other aspect(s) that is/are different?
Please note that I am not at all considering who these employees are—junior or senior. What matters is what happened and in what circumstances.
I do hope that you realize that the organizational response would be different for each of the scenarios above...or at least needs to be different.
Like Dinesh V Divekar mentioned, the world has changed, and so have the rules and regulations that govern organizations. I am not sure of the sector your company is in—your response options would depend a lot on this factor. If it's a manufacturing sector, are you prepared for union/association action? If it's IT, then there's a chance that there may be a backlash from at least some of the employees if this has been more of an inappropriate rather than illegal behavior. Are you sure you are prepared for such a backlash if at all it happens? Suggest don't presume that some things may happen or may not happen.
It's not for nothing that the processes/provisions prescribed in the employee conduct and discipline rules, i.e., to issue show cause notice to them, hold a domestic enquiry, etc., and calibrate the organizational response based on the findings, which then may also include termination—like PS Dhingra mentioned. When such rules are framed, many brains—well-experienced ones at that—would have gone into all possible scenarios before coming up with the processes to be followed.
Suggest please give more details of the situation for the members to give the most appropriate and practical suggestions.
If, for whatever reasons, you can't give the details, the only option, I think, you have is to follow the rules—ad verbatim.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Please note that I am not at all considering who these employees are—junior or senior. What matters is what happened and in what circumstances.
I do hope that you realize that the organizational response would be different for each of the scenarios above...or at least needs to be different.
Like Dinesh V Divekar mentioned, the world has changed, and so have the rules and regulations that govern organizations. I am not sure of the sector your company is in—your response options would depend a lot on this factor. If it's a manufacturing sector, are you prepared for union/association action? If it's IT, then there's a chance that there may be a backlash from at least some of the employees if this has been more of an inappropriate rather than illegal behavior. Are you sure you are prepared for such a backlash if at all it happens? Suggest don't presume that some things may happen or may not happen.
It's not for nothing that the processes/provisions prescribed in the employee conduct and discipline rules, i.e., to issue show cause notice to them, hold a domestic enquiry, etc., and calibrate the organizational response based on the findings, which then may also include termination—like PS Dhingra mentioned. When such rules are framed, many brains—well-experienced ones at that—would have gone into all possible scenarios before coming up with the processes to be followed.
Suggest please give more details of the situation for the members to give the most appropriate and practical suggestions.
If, for whatever reasons, you can't give the details, the only option, I think, you have is to follow the rules—ad verbatim.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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My attention was drawn to this thread by a senior member. The situation you mentioned is not very common, if not unique. I agree with the views expressed by our experienced members. As already suggested, please provide a sequential narration of the event.
Industry Inquiry
What kind of industry or business is yours? Is it a retail industry?
Questions on the Incident
- The dress change room, for which gender is it marked?
- Who entered there first?
- Who among them is senior in employment?
Please preserve the evidence.
Secondly, even if such misconduct is not specifically mentioned in your Standing Orders or Conduct and Discipline Rules, there is nothing to worry about, as the misconducts are only illustrative and not exhaustive.
This is a serious matter, and it has the potential to affect everyone concerned, especially the higher management. Meanwhile, also go through the Sexual Harassment at Workplace Act. There is nothing to prevent anyone from taking recourse to it at a later stage. Being prepared is the best option.
Do give more information on the incident.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Industry Inquiry
What kind of industry or business is yours? Is it a retail industry?
Questions on the Incident
- The dress change room, for which gender is it marked?
- Who entered there first?
- Who among them is senior in employment?
Please preserve the evidence.
Secondly, even if such misconduct is not specifically mentioned in your Standing Orders or Conduct and Discipline Rules, there is nothing to worry about, as the misconducts are only illustrative and not exhaustive.
This is a serious matter, and it has the potential to affect everyone concerned, especially the higher management. Meanwhile, also go through the Sexual Harassment at Workplace Act. There is nothing to prevent anyone from taking recourse to it at a later stage. Being prepared is the best option.
Do give more information on the incident.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Befor you take any legal action, Is it legal to put CCTV in change room and toilets?
From India, Thane
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From India, Thane
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Concerns About CCTV Installation in Personal Areas
Installation of CCTV in change rooms and other places of personal use is not the right option. No one has the right to record such footage and watch it on a monitor. If any action is taken regarding this matter, and when female and male employees become aware that CCTVs are installed and their personal footage is being recorded and watched, how do you think they would feel? What would they think about the management? In my opinion, no prudent lady would appreciate such recordings.
Proving any misconduct based on recorded footage becomes challenging when video mixing is possible. Areas of personal use should be clearly marked, and when a complaint arises, actions suggested by our experts should be taken following the definition of misconduct and the legal procedures adopted by the establishment, regardless of the relationships between the parties involved.
Thank you.
Regards,
V K Gupta
From India, Panipat
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Installation of CCTV in change rooms and other places of personal use is not the right option. No one has the right to record such footage and watch it on a monitor. If any action is taken regarding this matter, and when female and male employees become aware that CCTVs are installed and their personal footage is being recorded and watched, how do you think they would feel? What would they think about the management? In my opinion, no prudent lady would appreciate such recordings.
Proving any misconduct based on recorded footage becomes challenging when video mixing is possible. Areas of personal use should be clearly marked, and when a complaint arises, actions suggested by our experts should be taken following the definition of misconduct and the legal procedures adopted by the establishment, regardless of the relationships between the parties involved.
Thank you.
Regards,
V K Gupta
From India, Panipat
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I believe it is best to await Michael George's response to the questions raised rather than making comments based on our perceptions of the situation. For instance, I am uncertain whether a camera is installed within the change room or outside it. If the camera is positioned outside to monitor who enters and exits, as well as how long they stay, is it illegal? I would assume it is necessary in the event of a serious crime occurring to be able to identify individuals who were present in the area.
Thank you.
From United Kingdom
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Thank you.
From United Kingdom
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My view in the present circumstances is as follows:
Handling Employee Misconduct
Taking action with reference to appointment orders, conduct rules, standing orders, the Sexual Harassment Act, and so on may not solve the problem. Try to post or transfer the people to different units, offices, branches, centers, or cities if you want to keep them in service. Otherwise, monitor their overall performance and frame charges in a manner that is appropriate, acceptable, and unquestionable, and then send them out or remove any one of them.
Furthermore, the appointment order may include a clause of one or two months' notice on either side without specific reasons. Utilize this clause. If there is no such clause, consider adding it to future orders or as an addendum to the existing ones. This approach may resolve many issues and misunderstandings that could arise.
The issue needs to be handled tactfully and politely.
From India, Mumbai
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Handling Employee Misconduct
Taking action with reference to appointment orders, conduct rules, standing orders, the Sexual Harassment Act, and so on may not solve the problem. Try to post or transfer the people to different units, offices, branches, centers, or cities if you want to keep them in service. Otherwise, monitor their overall performance and frame charges in a manner that is appropriate, acceptable, and unquestionable, and then send them out or remove any one of them.
Furthermore, the appointment order may include a clause of one or two months' notice on either side without specific reasons. Utilize this clause. If there is no such clause, consider adding it to future orders or as an addendum to the existing ones. This approach may resolve many issues and misunderstandings that could arise.
The issue needs to be handled tactfully and politely.
From India, Mumbai
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With reference to the placement of video cameras, as is evident from the post, it has been placed so that it can view the entrance, and it only records the entry and exit. It is not placed inside, as is corroborated by the fact that whatever happened inside the changing room is not known.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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All said and done, any decision or course of action would depend on what the footage of the CCTV shows. Based on that, a preliminary inquiry may be necessary to determine exactly what has happened to form a prima facie case in the incident. However, at the same time, I don't think any staff rules will have such a provision depicting how to deal with this specific incident. In its absence, it may be difficult to proceed further. Much would depend on the past and present of the employees involved.
In my opinion, it is necessary to first establish what led them to be together for over 10 minutes in the dressing room. Michael did not narrate what the rumors circulating in their circle are about this incident; perhaps you can glean some clues from this. I agree it's unethical to place CCTV cameras in a dressing room of an establishment, but what happens in airports and highly secured environments where frisking is compulsory (sometimes allegedly leading to stripping), and no cameras are allowed there (though only same-gender frisking occurs)?
From India, Bangalore
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In my opinion, it is necessary to first establish what led them to be together for over 10 minutes in the dressing room. Michael did not narrate what the rumors circulating in their circle are about this incident; perhaps you can glean some clues from this. I agree it's unethical to place CCTV cameras in a dressing room of an establishment, but what happens in airports and highly secured environments where frisking is compulsory (sometimes allegedly leading to stripping), and no cameras are allowed there (though only same-gender frisking occurs)?
From India, Bangalore
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I think you should not terminate them directly. First, have a conversation with them and consult with your seniors. Ask them about the reasons why they engaged in that behavior and request them not to repeat it. Provide them with a clear first and final warning; otherwise, they will face punishment, including heavy penalties and termination. This is necessary because these individuals pose a threat to the organization's working environment.
Attribution: [CiteHR](https://www.citehr.com/492426-male-female-employee-found-using-same-dress.html#ixzz30r61jPq9)
From India, Haldwani
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Attribution: [CiteHR](https://www.citehr.com/492426-male-female-employee-found-using-same-dress.html#ixzz30r61jPq9)
From India, Haldwani
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All said and done, anything to be decided, the course of action, etc., would depend on what the footage of the CCTV shows. Based on this, a preliminary inquiry may be necessary to determine exactly what happened and to form a prima facie case in the incident. However, I don't think any staff rules will have a provision to deal with this specific incident. In its absence, it may be difficult to proceed further. Much will depend on the past and present actions of the employees involved. In my opinion, it is necessary to first establish what led them to be together for over 10 minutes in the dressing room. Michael did not mention the rumors circulating in their circle about this incident; you may find some clues there. I agree it's unethical to place CCTV cameras in a dressing room of an establishment, but what happens in airports and highly secured environments where frisking is compulsory (sometimes allegedly involving stripping), and no cameras are allowed there (though males frisk males and females frisk females only)?
Sorry to bring this up as an afterthought - are there separate rooms for males and females separately, or do all have to use one common room where both mistakenly entered at the same time without knowing someone was already there, taking about 10 minutes to realize this.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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Sorry to bring this up as an afterthought - are there separate rooms for males and females separately, or do all have to use one common room where both mistakenly entered at the same time without knowing someone was already there, taking about 10 minutes to realize this.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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Recording such footage will lead to other issues against your company. A thorough inquiry must take place. Are there any bolts present or not? What is their plea? Just footage will not help to act. However, without an inquiry, no decision can be taken.
From India, Guwahati
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From India, Guwahati
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Sexual Harassment Prevention Committee
Is there a sexual harassment prevention committee set up in your organization? If so, please hand over the matter to them for further investigation and disciplinary action.
Thanks & Regards,
Sumit Kumar Saxena
From India, Ghaziabad
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Is there a sexual harassment prevention committee set up in your organization? If so, please hand over the matter to them for further investigation and disciplinary action.
Thanks & Regards,
Sumit Kumar Saxena
From India, Ghaziabad
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Thank you all for your views and comments. I would like to clarify certain questions or provide clarity on what our members may want:
1. The industry is in the FMCG sector.
2. There are separate change rooms for men and women.
3. Surveillance is placed outside the change room and not inside.
Anyways, thank you for the post, guys. We have conducted an enquiry procedure, and it is still ongoing for the final decision. Thank you for all your posts. It was highly informative.
Kind regards,
Regards
From India, Madras
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1. The industry is in the FMCG sector.
2. There are separate change rooms for men and women.
3. Surveillance is placed outside the change room and not inside.
Anyways, thank you for the post, guys. We have conducted an enquiry procedure, and it is still ongoing for the final decision. Thank you for all your posts. It was highly informative.
Kind regards,
Regards
From India, Madras
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First of all, you need to discuss with the employees (with all the evidence), no matter how they are performing, because performance is not the parameter for applying policies. If they are guilty, you can terminate them with immediate effect (in consultation with you and their seniors) so that other employees do not take it for granted.
Regards,
Ram Chauhan
HR Manager
From India, Perungudi
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Regards,
Ram Chauhan
HR Manager
From India, Perungudi
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I have reviewed all the lengthy emails, and it seems we are all attempting to create our own scripts. Please call both of them and instruct them to resign if they do not comply. Ensure they understand that their resignation will be publicly announced across the organization if necessary. This direct action will send a clear message and address the current situation promptly; they will resign without hesitation.
For future reference, those who are considering or interested in using the changing room together should refrain from doing so.
Regards,
Atul
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For future reference, those who are considering or interested in using the changing room together should refrain from doing so.
Regards,
Atul
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Members in the forum had rightly advised you that you should advise management to hold an internal inquiry on the employees. Thereafter, if found involved in non-disciplinary activities, they should be served termination notices mentioning the reasons and conclusions of the inquiry committee.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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