Muster roll is a legal document, and some employees, even after writing remarks to "do not mark attendance with a red pen and use only blue/black pen," have kept marking attendance with a red pen and sometimes a green pen. What measures can be taken to prevent them from using a red pen? Is it legal for employees to mark attendance with a red pen?
Please let me know if you need any more assistance.
From India, Ahmadabad
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76Please let me know if you need any more assistance.
From India, Ahmadabad
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AFIK, there is no ruling on the use of red ink. But red ink fades over a period of time. It is suggested to recommend for use of blue/black ink pens. Pon
From India, Lucknow
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From India, Lucknow
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Your answer is not acceptable as red colour is in use for making remarks by authority, like employee muster roll remarks from the HR department. No information on paper can be written with a red pen. You can use any legal form or even your school or college admission form. If you fill it out using a red pen, it gets cancelled. Red and blue pens are used by authorities for remarks against filled-up reports, etc.
From India, Ahmadabad
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From India, Ahmadabad
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Sounds like a storm in a teacup! Not quite sure why muster roll is a legal document; sounds strange to me. Surely, it is only used to record attendance for leave and payroll purposes. Payroll records would be a better legal document to my mind if it came to the crunch, but maybe things are different in India.
Simple solution - find a piece of string and tie a blue or black pen to the roll for employees to use. Secondly, send an email to all employees, pointing out in a calm and good-natured way that the roll needs to be signed in blue or black ink. End of discussion. Try not to complicate simple things. I'm sure there are more important tasks for HR staff to deal with :-)
From Australia, Melbourne
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Simple solution - find a piece of string and tie a blue or black pen to the roll for employees to use. Secondly, send an email to all employees, pointing out in a calm and good-natured way that the roll needs to be signed in blue or black ink. End of discussion. Try not to complicate simple things. I'm sure there are more important tasks for HR staff to deal with :-)
From Australia, Melbourne
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Dear Friend,
Usually, three colors will be used to mark attendance to differentiate working shifts: blue for day shift, green for half-night shift, and red for night shift. The Inspector of Factories also suggests the same.
Best Regards,
Kamalarathinam. M
From India, New Delhi
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Usually, three colors will be used to mark attendance to differentiate working shifts: blue for day shift, green for half-night shift, and red for night shift. The Inspector of Factories also suggests the same.
Best Regards,
Kamalarathinam. M
From India, New Delhi
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Just an after thought (no offense please!) now a days electronic attendance systems are common ..... I have even seen finger print scanners .....
From China, Shanghai
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From China, Shanghai
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I agree with John in Oz: Sounds like a storm in a teacup!
But to correct John, there are many SMEs in India which still use the Muster Rolls for attendance marking [more to do with affordability than convenience/availability], which COULD become legal docs if any legal situation arises. Payroll records form the next step in the process [collated from the Muster Rolls].
And Pon is right--colors other than blue & black fade away after some time--which becomes critical if the records have to be retained for a long time [years]. Also, between Blue & Black, Black is suggested since the pigments used in black ink resist water [while blue ink can get erased when water/rain/sweat falls over the writing].
The solution that John gave is really quite simple: tie a blue or black pen to the roll for employees to use.
Rgds, TS
From India, Hyderabad
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But to correct John, there are many SMEs in India which still use the Muster Rolls for attendance marking [more to do with affordability than convenience/availability], which COULD become legal docs if any legal situation arises. Payroll records form the next step in the process [collated from the Muster Rolls].
And Pon is right--colors other than blue & black fade away after some time--which becomes critical if the records have to be retained for a long time [years]. Also, between Blue & Black, Black is suggested since the pigments used in black ink resist water [while blue ink can get erased when water/rain/sweat falls over the writing].
The solution that John gave is really quite simple: tie a blue or black pen to the roll for employees to use.
Rgds, TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Hi Bharadwaj,
As far as my knowledge goes, attendance is a legal document because it contains evidence of an employee having attended the office. Many are not aware of it. In several cases, this has been produced as evidence in Court of Law. And Courts have accepted it.
As to your point, usually the general convention is that only when an employee absents, it is marked in red ink in the muster roll. So if your employees do not heed your advice, wherever they have marked in red ink, treat that as absent on that day! So simple. This may have a salutatory effect on them.
But a word of caution! Please inform them well in advance that if they do not follow your advice and continue to mark in red ink, you will be constrained to mark those days as absent! After giving a reasonable time to mend their ways, if there is no change in their behavior, you can straight away mark absent wherever attendance is marked in red ink. Be tough. Don't compromise. This suggestion may sound harsh, but this is one of the ways in which you can deal with recalcitrant employees.
You can also follow the advice given by other members, which are mild.
M.J. Subramanyam, Bangalore
From India, Bangalore
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As far as my knowledge goes, attendance is a legal document because it contains evidence of an employee having attended the office. Many are not aware of it. In several cases, this has been produced as evidence in Court of Law. And Courts have accepted it.
As to your point, usually the general convention is that only when an employee absents, it is marked in red ink in the muster roll. So if your employees do not heed your advice, wherever they have marked in red ink, treat that as absent on that day! So simple. This may have a salutatory effect on them.
But a word of caution! Please inform them well in advance that if they do not follow your advice and continue to mark in red ink, you will be constrained to mark those days as absent! After giving a reasonable time to mend their ways, if there is no change in their behavior, you can straight away mark absent wherever attendance is marked in red ink. Be tough. Don't compromise. This suggestion may sound harsh, but this is one of the ways in which you can deal with recalcitrant employees.
You can also follow the advice given by other members, which are mild.
M.J. Subramanyam, Bangalore
From India, Bangalore
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I have not come across any legal provision or court ruling on the use of specific colors of ink for specified purposes. If someone has knowledge of it, we shall be grateful for sharing with the members. However, the reason for such use and the solution to the problem is provided by the prudent suggestion of the members themselves. There is no dispute about the fact that muster roll is a legal document as it is to be maintained under various labor laws as Mr. M.J. Subramanyam said and maybe, as Kamalrathinam informed, different colors may be used to indicate different shifts in a factory.
However, I observed that the custom and practice in administration regarding using different inks is that normal writing is done by employees in blue color, and any remarks are made by superiors in red ink to make them catch the attention of the subordinate officers. Green ink is being used by senior executives and gazetted officers in the government. Similarly, in maintaining accounts, the credit balances are in blue, and the debit balances are in red ink, while the figures to be totaled up are in blue, the totals are in red ink. It appears custom and practice are the determinative factors rather than any rule or ruling by a court.
However, the solution for the problem came from Aussiejohn and accordingly tying a blue or black pen to some fixed object near the muster roll may probably solve most of the problem.
B. Saikumar
From India, Mumbai
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However, I observed that the custom and practice in administration regarding using different inks is that normal writing is done by employees in blue color, and any remarks are made by superiors in red ink to make them catch the attention of the subordinate officers. Green ink is being used by senior executives and gazetted officers in the government. Similarly, in maintaining accounts, the credit balances are in blue, and the debit balances are in red ink, while the figures to be totaled up are in blue, the totals are in red ink. It appears custom and practice are the determinative factors rather than any rule or ruling by a court.
However, the solution for the problem came from Aussiejohn and accordingly tying a blue or black pen to some fixed object near the muster roll may probably solve most of the problem.
B. Saikumar
From India, Mumbai
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We can use different ink like red, blue & black for identification of the shifts & absentees There is nothing wrong. v.subbarao
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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I have gone through the discussions above. As far as legality is concerned, there is no law prevailing in this regard. However, it is an old practice that marking attendance in red is treated as absent. If you are willing to implement this as a part of discipline, you can go with the suggestion of Mr. Subramaniyam to mark them absent if signed in red, but with proper communication in advance.
Hrishikesh Aponarayan
From India, Pune
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Hrishikesh Aponarayan
From India, Pune
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True, there is no rule or court ruling to define which color should be used to mark the attendance. But in general, we use red color to make a remark in the document. So, the use of red color should be avoided.
Generally, late marks, half days, etc., are marked in red by the authorized person in the attendance register.
Regards,
Kamal
From India, Pune
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Generally, late marks, half days, etc., are marked in red by the authorized person in the attendance register.
Regards,
Kamal
From India, Pune
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There is no legal rule, but in Indian government offices, particularly in the legal judiciary, the following rule is followed: only certain authorities are allowed to sign in red or green inks. For example, gazetted officers can only sign in green ink. So, at home, you can sign in any ink, but as mentioned by one member in a school application form, you have to use only blue or black ink.
While there is no explicit legal rule, the Manual of Office Procedure does make some references to the use of different colored inks by officers at different levels. Generally, blue and black are used at the lowest level, green in the middle level, and red at the highest level. However, it is important to note that regardless of the color used by different levels, officials sign with either blue or green ink, preferably. The extract states that record-creating agencies should use fountain pen inks and ballpoint pen inks of a permanent nature as prescribed by the Bureau of Indian Standards. The guidelines specify colors for fountain pen inks (blue/black) and ballpoint pen inks (blue, black, red, or green).
Paragraph 68, sub-paragraph 5 of the Manual of Office Procedures now states that initial drafting will be done in black or blue ink, with modifications at subsequent levels in green or red ink to distinguish corrections made. According to Paragraph 32(9) of the manual, only officers of Joint Secretary level and above may use red or green ink, and that too only in rare cases. However, Paragraph 68(5) does not restrict the use of these colors to any specific rank.
The significance of different color inks on legal documents can vary. In law, red ink in a signature can indicate that the author is signing as a living man or woman. Black and blue ink may signify signing in the capacity of a corporate entity, such as state statuses or offices. The choice of ink color can convey specific meanings and implications on legal documents.
While it is not entirely clear, different color inks can have specific legal implications based on traditions or organizational practices. It is essential to understand the potential significance of ink color choices in different contexts.
From India, Madras
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While there is no explicit legal rule, the Manual of Office Procedure does make some references to the use of different colored inks by officers at different levels. Generally, blue and black are used at the lowest level, green in the middle level, and red at the highest level. However, it is important to note that regardless of the color used by different levels, officials sign with either blue or green ink, preferably. The extract states that record-creating agencies should use fountain pen inks and ballpoint pen inks of a permanent nature as prescribed by the Bureau of Indian Standards. The guidelines specify colors for fountain pen inks (blue/black) and ballpoint pen inks (blue, black, red, or green).
Paragraph 68, sub-paragraph 5 of the Manual of Office Procedures now states that initial drafting will be done in black or blue ink, with modifications at subsequent levels in green or red ink to distinguish corrections made. According to Paragraph 32(9) of the manual, only officers of Joint Secretary level and above may use red or green ink, and that too only in rare cases. However, Paragraph 68(5) does not restrict the use of these colors to any specific rank.
The significance of different color inks on legal documents can vary. In law, red ink in a signature can indicate that the author is signing as a living man or woman. Black and blue ink may signify signing in the capacity of a corporate entity, such as state statuses or offices. The choice of ink color can convey specific meanings and implications on legal documents.
While it is not entirely clear, different color inks can have specific legal implications based on traditions or organizational practices. It is essential to understand the potential significance of ink color choices in different contexts.
From India, Madras
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I appreciate accurate explanations by M.J.SUBRAMANYAM for 'muster roll' as a legal document presented in the labor court and utilized during disciplinary actions as proof for attendance/leaves, etc. & to B.Saikumar. It's important to understand certain things when working and dealing with HR and IR matters or any legal documents for any organization.
Some members replied to my stated inquiry 'without understanding the query and its seriousness,' and my query refers to using a red color pen for marking 'in-out time with the signature by employees' (employees in general sense) and not 'by employees falling in a certain grade.'
Now, no further comment from a half-knowledge person.
From India, Ahmadabad
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Some members replied to my stated inquiry 'without understanding the query and its seriousness,' and my query refers to using a red color pen for marking 'in-out time with the signature by employees' (employees in general sense) and not 'by employees falling in a certain grade.'
Now, no further comment from a half-knowledge person.
From India, Ahmadabad
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Dear Bharadwaj,
You can make it a rule in the office that all employees have to sign with a blue pen (or a black pen), and that marking with a red pen will not be considered as present. If this is communicated clearly to all employees (get a signature on the letter, etc.), then it is valid for you to mark such persons as absent. I am not sure how serious this will get if the matter goes to court; however, there is no law that specifies a particular color to be used. The labor laws do give you the right to establish reasonable rules governing the method of documentation, attendance, etc. I hope that clears the matter.
Having said that, perhaps you need to talk to the persons who are using red and green pens (I assume there are not too many) and find out why they are doing so. Perhaps you can impress upon them the issues faced with red ink. Finding buy-in from the staff is always better than appearing as an authoritarian boss forcing rules upon someone, however justified it may be.
From India, Mumbai
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You can make it a rule in the office that all employees have to sign with a blue pen (or a black pen), and that marking with a red pen will not be considered as present. If this is communicated clearly to all employees (get a signature on the letter, etc.), then it is valid for you to mark such persons as absent. I am not sure how serious this will get if the matter goes to court; however, there is no law that specifies a particular color to be used. The labor laws do give you the right to establish reasonable rules governing the method of documentation, attendance, etc. I hope that clears the matter.
Having said that, perhaps you need to talk to the persons who are using red and green pens (I assume there are not too many) and find out why they are doing so. Perhaps you can impress upon them the issues faced with red ink. Finding buy-in from the staff is always better than appearing as an authoritarian boss forcing rules upon someone, however justified it may be.
From India, Mumbai
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This is true that the red pen is used for absences and the blue or black pen is used for present, as guided by the labor department when I consulted with them. In Delhi, Kolkata, and Mumbai, I have already consulted with the labor department regarding this. After that, I also implemented this practice in my organization where the practice was not being followed.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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can an employee signed on attendance register while he is on out station official visit. Employee is not present phsically at his base location but he is present at another location.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Why are you posting your query as a reply to a thread that is 3 years old? Put a new query. Members will answer. Also, use the research button on top to find the answers, as others have posted similar queries in the past.
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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Hi Members,
Please share your insights on how to use Etime to maintain attendance records for inspector's reference. The manual register may appear cumbersome and tedious, so your valued suggestions and ideas are greatly appreciated.
Looking forward to hearing from you on this.
Many thanks,
Hareesha
From Belgium,
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Please share your insights on how to use Etime to maintain attendance records for inspector's reference. The manual register may appear cumbersome and tedious, so your valued suggestions and ideas are greatly appreciated.
Looking forward to hearing from you on this.
Many thanks,
Hareesha
From Belgium,
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