Dear Sir,
This is Nivedita from Noida. This is my first email to the site HR. Actually, I am the only one in HR. I have some queries related to standing orders. Our company has completed 3 years, and we are in manufacturing. Could you please tell me if there is any compulsion for having standing orders and the procedure? Our consultant was asking for a significant amount of money, around 20k for all. Is it okay?
I hope you will reply soon.
Regards,
Nivedita Kaushik
nivedita.kaushik@gmail.com
Sr. Executive HR
Greater Noida
From India, Delhi
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This is Nivedita from Noida. This is my first email to the site HR. Actually, I am the only one in HR. I have some queries related to standing orders. Our company has completed 3 years, and we are in manufacturing. Could you please tell me if there is any compulsion for having standing orders and the procedure? Our consultant was asking for a significant amount of money, around 20k for all. Is it okay?
I hope you will reply soon.
Regards,
Nivedita Kaushik
nivedita.kaushik@gmail.com
Sr. Executive HR
Greater Noida
From India, Delhi
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HI If the consultant is asking for 20K, then I will say its ok , I mean less expensive. 20K is the minimum amount consultants in Delhi and NCR charges. Thanks Dev
From India, Gurgaon
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3From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Nivedita,
Yes, it's mandatory to have Standing Orders in the company. As far as the fees of the consultant are concerned, it's pretty okay. Otherwise, you may also have a copy of the model standing order available in the market, which is enough, and you need not spend any money on getting the standing orders customized by the consultant. Most of the companies keep model standing orders.
Amit Goyal
09850927168
From India, Delhi
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Yes, it's mandatory to have Standing Orders in the company. As far as the fees of the consultant are concerned, it's pretty okay. Otherwise, you may also have a copy of the model standing order available in the market, which is enough, and you need not spend any money on getting the standing orders customized by the consultant. Most of the companies keep model standing orders.
Amit Goyal
09850927168
From India, Delhi
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Hi Amit Goyal,
Yes, it's mandatory to have Standing Orders in the company. As far as the fees of the consultant are concerned, it's pretty okay. Otherwise, you may also have a copy of the model standing order available in the market, which is enough, and you need not spend any money on getting the standing orders customized by the consultant. Most of the companies keep model standing orders.
Thank you, Amit.
But sometimes, it happens when we need to take some action against a worker; then, I feel scared, like suspending or terminating. I don't have perfect knowledge about all the rules. We want to terminate one of our workers because his behavior and working attitude are not good. How can we let him go without any problems?
Nivedita Kaushik
G. Noida
From India, Delhi
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Yes, it's mandatory to have Standing Orders in the company. As far as the fees of the consultant are concerned, it's pretty okay. Otherwise, you may also have a copy of the model standing order available in the market, which is enough, and you need not spend any money on getting the standing orders customized by the consultant. Most of the companies keep model standing orders.
Thank you, Amit.
But sometimes, it happens when we need to take some action against a worker; then, I feel scared, like suspending or terminating. I don't have perfect knowledge about all the rules. We want to terminate one of our workers because his behavior and working attitude are not good. How can we let him go without any problems?
Nivedita Kaushik
G. Noida
From India, Delhi
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Hello,
Forget the consultant. You can handle the matter yourself.
The Industrial Employment (Standing Orders) Act 1946 is a central legislation that applies to the whole country. It applies to industrial establishments that employ or employed, in Maharashtra, 50 workmen on any day in the previous twelve months. In Noida, you should check this figure from the labor office of the government, but I feel the figure will not be more than 100 workmen.
The purpose of this law is "to provide rules defining with sufficient precision certain conditions of employment in industrial establishments."
Apart from other things, it provides the matters on which rules must be made. The law gives you the freedom to make your own rules on all prescribed subjects and get the same "certified" by the Certifying Officer under the Act. But to make matters simple, the act also provides "Model Standing Orders" that are automatically applicable and binding until, by due process, they are amended.
In my fairly long experience, these are quite adequate for the purposes of dealing with workmen. All that one has to do is to read the bare act critically and act as guided by the act.
Honestly, if you make an attempt to read this legislation, you will also realize that you do not need a "consultant" for this purpose and certainly not at this high a price!! For other acts and purposes, hiring a consultant may be considered and even worthwhile, but speaking for myself, I never liked to depend on any consultant while I was working. We need them, they are a great help because of their experience, but generally, you should pay by use and try to be self-reliant in matters where you are qualified. Hiring a lawyer is a different matter.
I am a practicing consultant in IR and HR and am NOT soliciting work because I want all professionals to be independent and self-reliant! Apparently, I work against my own interests, but I will not put the profession above the monetary gains!
Please make a little effort and you will find that you can handle the issues yourself. If you need help, the forum is always available anyway!!
Regards,
Samvedan
January 16, 2008
From India, Pune
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Forget the consultant. You can handle the matter yourself.
The Industrial Employment (Standing Orders) Act 1946 is a central legislation that applies to the whole country. It applies to industrial establishments that employ or employed, in Maharashtra, 50 workmen on any day in the previous twelve months. In Noida, you should check this figure from the labor office of the government, but I feel the figure will not be more than 100 workmen.
The purpose of this law is "to provide rules defining with sufficient precision certain conditions of employment in industrial establishments."
Apart from other things, it provides the matters on which rules must be made. The law gives you the freedom to make your own rules on all prescribed subjects and get the same "certified" by the Certifying Officer under the Act. But to make matters simple, the act also provides "Model Standing Orders" that are automatically applicable and binding until, by due process, they are amended.
In my fairly long experience, these are quite adequate for the purposes of dealing with workmen. All that one has to do is to read the bare act critically and act as guided by the act.
Honestly, if you make an attempt to read this legislation, you will also realize that you do not need a "consultant" for this purpose and certainly not at this high a price!! For other acts and purposes, hiring a consultant may be considered and even worthwhile, but speaking for myself, I never liked to depend on any consultant while I was working. We need them, they are a great help because of their experience, but generally, you should pay by use and try to be self-reliant in matters where you are qualified. Hiring a lawyer is a different matter.
I am a practicing consultant in IR and HR and am NOT soliciting work because I want all professionals to be independent and self-reliant! Apparently, I work against my own interests, but I will not put the profession above the monetary gains!
Please make a little effort and you will find that you can handle the issues yourself. If you need help, the forum is always available anyway!!
Regards,
Samvedan
January 16, 2008
From India, Pune
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Hi Nivedita,
As Samvedan rightly said, you should follow the Model Standing Orders. You may review these model standing orders to find a solution to your problem.
Amit Goyal
9850927168
From India, Delhi
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As Samvedan rightly said, you should follow the Model Standing Orders. You may review these model standing orders to find a solution to your problem.
Amit Goyal
9850927168
From India, Delhi
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Hi Nivedita,
It's true that you can do it yourself, and you should be self-reliant, but I suggest you outsource this task as you are the only one handling HR, and there are many other issues for you to manage.
As a consultant, I charge a standard fee of only Rs.10,000 for all my clients. If you need assistance, please get in touch with me.
Thanks,
Mehul
09892188218
From India, Pune
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It's true that you can do it yourself, and you should be self-reliant, but I suggest you outsource this task as you are the only one handling HR, and there are many other issues for you to manage.
As a consultant, I charge a standard fee of only Rs.10,000 for all my clients. If you need assistance, please get in touch with me.
Thanks,
Mehul
09892188218
From India, Pune
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Company standing orders are a mandatory requirement for a manufacturing organization. Until your standing orders are certified, you need to display model standing orders. There is a procedure for applying for certification. Kindly ask your consultant, besides preparing standing orders, what will be his role. You need to get clarification.
In case you have any problems, you can reach me at my email: drdaleep@hotmail.com or mobile 9810111326.
Regards,
Daleep
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In case you have any problems, you can reach me at my email: drdaleep@hotmail.com or mobile 9810111326.
Regards,
Daleep
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Hi,
It is always better to have approved standing orders for your company, where you can specify things with precision, making it easier to deal with employee-related problems. A practicing HR officer can read the Standing Order Act and implement it; however, it is advisable to consult a specialist when formulating the standing orders, especially in a situation where only one person is managing the matters. This consultation ensures that important aspects are taken care of because the approval process can be time-consuming.
Bye,
Karath AK
From India, Gurgaon
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It is always better to have approved standing orders for your company, where you can specify things with precision, making it easier to deal with employee-related problems. A practicing HR officer can read the Standing Order Act and implement it; however, it is advisable to consult a specialist when formulating the standing orders, especially in a situation where only one person is managing the matters. This consultation ensures that important aspects are taken care of because the approval process can be time-consuming.
Bye,
Karath AK
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Nivedita,
I am also an HR officer in Noida. If you have more than 100 workers, it is mandatory for you to have an approved standing order which is approved by the Labour Commissioner. If you have any other questions, you can call me anytime on my cellphone number 9971488905 or at the office number 0120-4061511.
Dheeraj Shukla
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I am also an HR officer in Noida. If you have more than 100 workers, it is mandatory for you to have an approved standing order which is approved by the Labour Commissioner. If you have any other questions, you can call me anytime on my cellphone number 9971488905 or at the office number 0120-4061511.
Dheeraj Shukla
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Hi Nivedita,
You have raised not one query but many. Let me share my understanding with you and respond to it to the best of my ability.
Q1. Should we have our own standing order?
Ans. Yes, it's mandatory to have one. However, if you don't have one, you could always refer to the Model Standing Order, which must be exhibited in a prominent place in your workplace/factory.
Q2. Should I take help from a consultant?
Ans. Yes, if you don't have the expertise.
Q3. Is 20K a huge outgo for this assignment?
Ans. No, it's pretty reasonable.
Q4. I don't have confidence since I don't understand the law. What should I do to take action?
Ans. It's advisable to take help from an expert until you learn it yourself.
Q5. Is it easier to take action once we have our own certified standing orders?
Ans. No, simply having a rule book or standing orders does not make it any easier. There are governing principles and processes that you need to understand before you decide to initiate an action. You need to be careful because it may backfire if you don't handle the disciplinary action professionally and legally. Therefore, it's advisable to use some sensible head who has the expertise, it could be someone internal or a consultant.
Therefore, my advice to you is "Think before you Act". Plan the action, understand the implications, have the countermeasures ready, consult senior management, involve the team, operations, as well as others, take help from the union if there is one before you plunge into any action.
Regards,
Sateesh Chandra
From India, Bangalore
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You have raised not one query but many. Let me share my understanding with you and respond to it to the best of my ability.
Q1. Should we have our own standing order?
Ans. Yes, it's mandatory to have one. However, if you don't have one, you could always refer to the Model Standing Order, which must be exhibited in a prominent place in your workplace/factory.
Q2. Should I take help from a consultant?
Ans. Yes, if you don't have the expertise.
Q3. Is 20K a huge outgo for this assignment?
Ans. No, it's pretty reasonable.
Q4. I don't have confidence since I don't understand the law. What should I do to take action?
Ans. It's advisable to take help from an expert until you learn it yourself.
Q5. Is it easier to take action once we have our own certified standing orders?
Ans. No, simply having a rule book or standing orders does not make it any easier. There are governing principles and processes that you need to understand before you decide to initiate an action. You need to be careful because it may backfire if you don't handle the disciplinary action professionally and legally. Therefore, it's advisable to use some sensible head who has the expertise, it could be someone internal or a consultant.
Therefore, my advice to you is "Think before you Act". Plan the action, understand the implications, have the countermeasures ready, consult senior management, involve the team, operations, as well as others, take help from the union if there is one before you plunge into any action.
Regards,
Sateesh Chandra
From India, Bangalore
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Hi DHEERAJBABA,
I am also an HR officer in Noida. If you have more than 100 workers, it is mandatory for you to have an approved standing order which is approved by the labor commissioner. If you have any other questions, you can call me anytime on my cellphone at 9971488905 or at the office number 0120-4061511.
Thanks,
Dheeraj
But in my company, there are 40 permanent employees, around 40 contractors, and 10 on a casual basis every day. Now, can you please tell me if these should be considered in manpower? Also, we have 5 people whom we are treating as casual employees. We pay them 5000 each month without any deductions. Before my joining, the previous HR listed their names in the muster roll. However, I don't see them in Form 12 now. Could you please advise on how we can manage this situation so that there are no issues during inspections?
Thanks,
Nivedita Kaushik
G. Noida
From India, Delhi
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I am also an HR officer in Noida. If you have more than 100 workers, it is mandatory for you to have an approved standing order which is approved by the labor commissioner. If you have any other questions, you can call me anytime on my cellphone at 9971488905 or at the office number 0120-4061511.
Thanks,
Dheeraj
But in my company, there are 40 permanent employees, around 40 contractors, and 10 on a casual basis every day. Now, can you please tell me if these should be considered in manpower? Also, we have 5 people whom we are treating as casual employees. We pay them 5000 each month without any deductions. Before my joining, the previous HR listed their names in the muster roll. However, I don't see them in Form 12 now. Could you please advise on how we can manage this situation so that there are no issues during inspections?
Thanks,
Nivedita Kaushik
G. Noida
From India, Delhi
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Hi Nivedita, how are you?
Nivedita, any person employed directly by the principal employer or by any other contractor should be included in calculating the manpower in the factory.
Nivedita, I would like to understand more about casual workers. Could you please explain what is meant by a casual worker?
Dheeraj Shukla
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Nivedita, any person employed directly by the principal employer or by any other contractor should be included in calculating the manpower in the factory.
Nivedita, I would like to understand more about casual workers. Could you please explain what is meant by a casual worker?
Dheeraj Shukla
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HI Dheeraj I m fine here.hope u r doing same.actually we have some employees ,we paid them salary without any pf & esi deduction & some on daily wages. we called them casual worker. Nivedita
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Standing order means the terms and conditions of the employment governing the employees. It is applicable throughout India and is applicable to every establishment where one hundred or more workmen are employed on any day of the preceding twelve months.
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Hi Nivedita,
I am also working as an HR officer in a manufacturing unit in Agra. According to the law, we are liable to deduct PF and ESI of the casual workers as well. If you are not doing this, it may cause problems for you later during any inspection. Only the persons who are working as apprentices are not liable to contribute to these deductions.
For further information on apprenticeships, you can contact me on this site.
Ranjeeta
From India, Delhi
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I am also working as an HR officer in a manufacturing unit in Agra. According to the law, we are liable to deduct PF and ESI of the casual workers as well. If you are not doing this, it may cause problems for you later during any inspection. Only the persons who are working as apprentices are not liable to contribute to these deductions.
For further information on apprenticeships, you can contact me on this site.
Ranjeeta
From India, Delhi
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ranjeeta u are fully right bcaz accrding to rules any person should not be employed in industry without pf esi
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Hi,
You don't need to pay for a Standing Order because you can do it yourself. First, I want to say that I think you have only 70 employees, so why are you submitting a standing order.
Thanks,
Rahul Kush
9873800634
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You don't need to pay for a Standing Order because you can do it yourself. First, I want to say that I think you have only 70 employees, so why are you submitting a standing order.
Thanks,
Rahul Kush
9873800634
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Dear Nivedita,
I have been watching the discussion on the topic. The views that came up are from both sides.
I have something to share based on my experience. You should certainly go for a consultant for drafting the standing orders. This document carries great importance for an organization, especially in times of crisis. Once certified, it becomes more difficult to get amended. The provisions mentioned in model S.O. are only for guidance. You can go beyond that, making them more favorable and specific. Any loose drafting with a loophole capable of providing two interpretations will always go in favor of employees. This is a document as you are writing a constitution for your organization governing terms of employment.
Let me give you one simple example. In one S.O., a transfer could be effected with the consent of the employee only because ten years back when S.O. was certified, there was no other unit of the organization and could not be visualized about future growth. The point at that time was taken very lightly by the management and agreed to the consent condition. Now, in the last five years, the organization has grown up and put three more units at different locations, and the need for transfer was realized. The issue came up, and employees refused to accept transfers. In such a condition, legally S.O. will prevail.
The purpose of citing an example is that a person sitting in the organization may not be able to visualize the situation of the future because it comes from a variety of experiences a reputed consultant may have.
Don't treat this assignment as a mere ritual. Each word has to be put carefully so that it passes the test of time.
Regards,
Anil Kaushik
Chief Editor, BUSINESS MANAGER
Email: akaushikus@yahoo.com
Phone: 09829133699
From India, Delhi
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I have been watching the discussion on the topic. The views that came up are from both sides.
I have something to share based on my experience. You should certainly go for a consultant for drafting the standing orders. This document carries great importance for an organization, especially in times of crisis. Once certified, it becomes more difficult to get amended. The provisions mentioned in model S.O. are only for guidance. You can go beyond that, making them more favorable and specific. Any loose drafting with a loophole capable of providing two interpretations will always go in favor of employees. This is a document as you are writing a constitution for your organization governing terms of employment.
Let me give you one simple example. In one S.O., a transfer could be effected with the consent of the employee only because ten years back when S.O. was certified, there was no other unit of the organization and could not be visualized about future growth. The point at that time was taken very lightly by the management and agreed to the consent condition. Now, in the last five years, the organization has grown up and put three more units at different locations, and the need for transfer was realized. The issue came up, and employees refused to accept transfers. In such a condition, legally S.O. will prevail.
The purpose of citing an example is that a person sitting in the organization may not be able to visualize the situation of the future because it comes from a variety of experiences a reputed consultant may have.
Don't treat this assignment as a mere ritual. Each word has to be put carefully so that it passes the test of time.
Regards,
Anil Kaushik
Chief Editor, BUSINESS MANAGER
Email: akaushikus@yahoo.com
Phone: 09829133699
From India, Delhi
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Hi,
I agree with Samvedan. You can do it yourself. However, if you can engage a consultant and learn the process, it is useful. I have learned the process once through a consultant. Thereafter, I never approached a consultant for this purpose.
If you have less than 100 employees, follow Model Standing Orders. If you have more than 100, you can still follow Model Standing Orders. However, the law requires you to get Standing Orders certified.
a. It involves some amount of drafting.
b. It involves some amount of knowledge of procedures.
c. It involves a certain degree of negotiation skill as a notice will be served to the union. If there is no union, then you have to select/elect a body from among the workmen for this purpose.
If you can negotiate with the consultant, it is good. But Rs 20,000 for getting Standing Orders certified is not a big amount.
Siva
From India, Chennai
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I agree with Samvedan. You can do it yourself. However, if you can engage a consultant and learn the process, it is useful. I have learned the process once through a consultant. Thereafter, I never approached a consultant for this purpose.
If you have less than 100 employees, follow Model Standing Orders. If you have more than 100, you can still follow Model Standing Orders. However, the law requires you to get Standing Orders certified.
a. It involves some amount of drafting.
b. It involves some amount of knowledge of procedures.
c. It involves a certain degree of negotiation skill as a notice will be served to the union. If there is no union, then you have to select/elect a body from among the workmen for this purpose.
If you can negotiate with the consultant, it is good. But Rs 20,000 for getting Standing Orders certified is not a big amount.
Siva
From India, Chennai
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Yes u can do it urself if u have that degree of legal drafting skills. I wish every HR professional could have that.It is highly specialised work. regds anil kaushik
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Hello Sir,
Thank you for your suggestion on this issue. I know the importance of S.O. If I go for certification of S.O., should we communicate to our employees about rules and conditions? What are we going to certify? I don't know the drafting, but I will try my best because I believe I have the best HR professional around me. You know I have so many queries related to different issues. Please always keep in touch.
Warm Regards,
Nivedita Kaushik
From India, Delhi
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Thank you for your suggestion on this issue. I know the importance of S.O. If I go for certification of S.O., should we communicate to our employees about rules and conditions? What are we going to certify? I don't know the drafting, but I will try my best because I believe I have the best HR professional around me. You know I have so many queries related to different issues. Please always keep in touch.
Warm Regards,
Nivedita Kaushik
From India, Delhi
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Yes, Nivedita, it is mandatory to have standing orders. You can follow the model standing orders specified by the Employer's Standing Orders Act. You can adopt some of them with common agreement between management and workers. This is called modified standing orders.
Regards,
Mansi
From India, Mumbai
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Regards,
Mansi
From India, Mumbai
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Hi Dheeraj,
As per U.P. Industrial Employment Standing Orders Rules, it shall apply to all factories covered under Section 2(m) of the Factories Act 1948, and it is mandatory to certify the same within six months from the first date of production.
Thanks,
S. Singh
From India, Jaipur
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As per U.P. Industrial Employment Standing Orders Rules, it shall apply to all factories covered under Section 2(m) of the Factories Act 1948, and it is mandatory to certify the same within six months from the first date of production.
Thanks,
S. Singh
From India, Jaipur
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