Lets Join Hands For Clean Exit!!!!-Let A Movement Begin ....

All the formalities from the employee's side are perfect. A perfect contributor, a hard-working person, serving properly for the notice period.

Now, if the company is not relieving properly, and when referred to the other company for the ex-employer reference, they are giving false and unethical information. Is it right?

Why do they have to spoil the future career of the employee who worked loyally for the company? This is the foremost reason why these kinds of exits happen.

Seniors, please discuss this. Started this on behalf of suffering hard-working employees.
28th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Venilla,

Thank you so much for your inputs. I would just like to point out that there are always two sides to a coin. The situation you have described is also true; it happens. I support you if you take in an employee based on such kind of feedback. But tell me, is the situation I have described irrelevant? Or does it not happen at all? And is the reason you have cited the only reason why an employee goes absconding from a company?

I invite your views, suggestions, and comments on the same.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
28th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

The management is not ready to pay as much as what the next company is willing to offer them. The company is also not prepared to provide proper relief to the employees. Many employees are suffering a lot, especially in SMBs. Let us invite examples and experiences from various members of our CiteHR team.
28th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

hameetha

As far as the IT industry is concerned, we cannot overlook it. As an employer, we must ensure that we recruit employees with proper Relieving Orders. This will enhance employee commitment and foster respect towards the company.

Regards,
Hameetha
28th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi Indu,

The incidents you have come out happening... But why does it happen? Mostly because of the management - politics, partiality, less pay, and recognition compared to the less contributing and less productive employees. Giving importance to the informer rather than the performer. It should not make the employees comfortable, give perfect job roles and responsibilities, and make them highly productive. Do the best you can; let the employees be happy despite heavy workloads. See the market, pay equal to the market, give importance to production rather than degrees and experience.

Seniors, if I am not right, please comment from your end.
28th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Vennila,

If now I put forward a question that despite providing all these to an employee, if he/she goes absconding then? It is the right of every individual to look for better opportunities. Can we ever promise any employee that we will always pay you higher than the market rate or provide you a job that you will completely enjoy? Perhaps no. So there is no problem if an employee changes a job, but the only thing expected out of him is to follow the policies; otherwise, there is no use of having a policy for the notice period. Anybody can leave the organization one fine morning saying that they are not happy with the pay or the job role.

The least that we expect from an employee is serving a notice period and getting a clean exit.

Do you think we are expecting too much from an employee?

Just to add to this, in our company, any employee leaving the organization gracefully is given a farewell party and is handed over their relieving letter, experience certificate, and also a gift like a blazer, suit, dress material, or something. Most of our employees get a clean exit from the company, barring these few stray cases that hamper the tempo of the work.

I have started this discussion to safeguard the interests of an HR professional and also to create awareness so that tomorrow no HR professional like me is a victim of such unethical practices and not to point out mistakes.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
28th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

guru1967

Dear Vennila Natarajan,

Kudos to your input! Your explanation is really an eye-opener. Yes, I totally agree with your viewpoints.

In fact, one of my friends was a victim of harassment from the management (and, in fact, the HR was so bad in the sense that he could not handle the so-called grievance handling, counseling, or any of the 'H' of HR) in one of the BPO companies he was hired for.

He was asked to report for duty (for the position of Executive Secretary) after a thorough interview. The CEO and HR conducted the interview and offered him the job after making him sign the bond. However, later on, no proper job was assigned to my friend. When this was brought to the notice of HR, the HR vaguely said to wait for some more time. My friend literally ran from pillar to post to know his exact job nature and why there was no job to do, but it was of no use.

One fine day, the HR called him into his chamber and said that since there was not much work for him, he could leave the job, and the HR handed him the termination letter.

Now, seniors, please tell me, is this fair from the management's point of view? If there is no job, why was he offered the job in the first place? And why was he later issued the termination letter by HR? In fact, this company has given my friend sleepless nights.

Ms. Indrani, can you kindly advise on what we should do about these kinds of unethical practices being adopted by management and HR?

Regards,

Gururaj.
28th November 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

hameetha

Hi,

The situation is literally painful as an HR Executive. Giving terminations is not easy as an HR Executive. It is a stressful and painful situation, and if it is going to be to a person with no proper reasons, then it is not ethical to do the termination.

In some companies (where there is no real passion and respect for the value of human resources, these kinds of politics keep going). It's better as an HR professional to try to highlight to the management that it is not good for the company's future. Every human has the right to be treated with dignity and respect.

It's high time that the person has not wasted his/her career in the so-called company. It is my request that as an HR professional, we should be able to study the company's culture (we can know to some extent during interviews) and the people before we step into the company. Everyone has the dream to excel in their career but with the right spirit and at the right place.

With Regards,
Hameetha
28th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

hameetha

Hi,

The incident you have portrayed is really painful. The employees should be able to grow in a result-oriented environment. The employee should be able to work with enthusiastic, energetic people, and it's a difficult situation to work with people who play a lot of politics.

It's good that the guy has come out of the company since it may lead to more emotional/unwanted situations, which make anybody dull and painful. It's better he searches for an organization where human resources are respected and know the value of it. Definitely, he will be able to grow in such a kind of environment even with a lot of work pressures.

With Regards,
Hameetha
28th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Gururaj,

Thank you so much for your inputs. I am not saying that these things don't happen in the industry and it's ethical. A huge number of employees are kept on the bench in big IT companies, even though they go through such a situation, and it's absolutely right on the part of the employee to leave the job and look for a change.

If you ask for my suggestion, then I would say they should document all the communication to the management and HR regarding this and put it forward to the prospective employer so that he can show the reason for taking such a step.

All I am trying to say is, "Is this the only reason for an employee to go absconding?" If yes, then we should not have a system of "serving a notice period," and if no, then let's concentrate on the employees who leave the organization without giving any prior notice to the management and get accepted in other organizations without a relieving letter (or by showing a false one).

What would you have done in my situation when an employee was given a 40% salary hike as an increment a month before he left, was given 14 days of leave for Diwali, and after coming back from vacation, he took the Diwali gift vouchers, the sweets, and then just left the company.

This is one stray incident in the organization and has not happened before, so the management, on good faith, has taken up a project from a client based on his commitments.

Tell me, what are your views on the same?

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
28th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

raj_prt

What everyone is used to is HR with a scowling face and an iron fist. How about making a conscientious effort to change our image to a smiling face and kind heart? Perhaps that would really make a difference in the attitude of the employees towards HR as well.

It would be difficult to generalize situations because each case of separation is unique in some way or another. But what we CAN do is to call the HR manager of the new joinee's previous organization and check about the employee's past employment. In the worst-case scenario, he or she might refuse to divulge any information and might even give some wrong feedback. But then you should only be doing a check of the duration of employment and the reason for separation at this stage, and nothing beyond that. And yes, if you are the one receiving a similar call, please be frank enough to say that the employee did (or did not) stay with the organization for the duration claimed by him or her, and if necessary state that the separation was amicable or not. With the large number of members this forum has, we could easily enlist many HR professionals' support for this movement.

Any differing views on this?
28th November 2007 From India, Mumbai

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Raj,

I am very happy to see your response, and I absolutely agree with you that the situation may differ every time an employee is leaving an organization without notice. However, the crux of the matter is if the employee doesn't have sufficient reason to support this kind of action, then the HR of the prospective company should probe a little into the matter, find out the reasons for the same, and take necessary actions.

I expected this kind of support from the seniors as well as my fellow HR professionals. I thought there is an HR or a union leader, or maybe both in a company to protect the interests of an employee, but there is no one in the organization to protect the interest of the HR as an employee. Hence, when something like this happens, it is most likely the HR person seeks help in open forums like these from fellow HR professionals.

Thank you for the suggestion of wearing a smile on the face while I greet the employees in the morning (I usually do that:). I believe that it brings in positive vibes among the employees if they find their HR approachable.

Thank you once again for the post.

Best Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
28th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sonal shree

We cannot force any employee to remain with the company, and we cannot even expect them to tell us in advance that they are looking for a job change. So, accepting this phenomenon as a reality, we must seek alternative paths to compensate for the loss of manpower.

Companies must go out and tap even the rural population, graduates, postgraduates, and impart training to absorb them later as full-time employees. This is what TCS is doing, for instance.

Such candidates are more loyal and tend to stick with the company for long.

Also, more and more emphasis must be given to hiring women candidates. Studies and observations have proved that they tend to stay longer with the company if their basic needs are taken care of.

Effective communication is the ultimate key. When leaders fail to communicate clearly and openly, the void is filled by information from other sources, which can be very beneficial for rumour mongers.

Temping is also handy.

We should stop losing our sleep over such issues because we also have the right to live a tension-free life. Proactive measures such as those mentioned above will prove beneficial in the long run.

Hope this makes some sense.

Regards,

Sonal
29th November 2007 From India, Mumbai

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

ravik

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Sonal,

Thank you for your views on a long-term perspective. Whether female employees are more loyal than their counterparts is a different debate altogether, and I would not like to comment on that. But I agree with you when you say that candidates from suburbs or small towns are usually more loyal for the first 2-3 years of their service. After spending 2-3 years in the corporate world, they also become a part of the corporate culture (my understanding of the same).

Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards, Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi Friends,

First of all, I should congratulate Indu for starting a good discussion. From what I've seen from the above discussions, there have been people who speak from the management side, employee side, or in between the two. I truly agree with the fact that if the employee is not happy with the job/company, he can for sure leave his job. However, it is just a moral responsibility that he abides by the Appointment order terms & conditions. We as HR persons may try to stop the employee from leaving; however, even in that case, if the employee is adamant to leave, we should relieve him, as per the appointment order terms again. It is justified from both the employee and employer perspective that we follow the appointment order terms to maintain a good atmosphere. In fact, we are doing nothing wrong or inhuman but merely following an agreement that was made before. I hope I've made my point clear.

Ravi.

Dear Mr. Ravi,

Thank you so much for your valuable comments. I absolutely agree with you that it is the duty of both parties, the employers as well as the employees, to stick to the agreement via the appointment letter. Exceptions are always there from both parties, but we should aim at streamlining the process as much as possible by bringing these discussions to open forums and sharing them with fellow members of the HR fraternity.

Thank you once again.

Best Regards, Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sonal shree

Dear Indrani,

I guess I was not clear when talking about female employees. I never mentioned they are more loyal vis-a-vis male counterparts. It's just that I mentioned they tend to stick longer with the company once their basic needs such as posting (generally they want posting in the same place as their spouse), child care, flexi-time schedules, etc. are taken care of. Research has proved this.
29th November 2007 From India, Mumbai

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms Sonal I am sorry if I have misinterpreted your statement but all I wanted to say is its is a diffrent debate altogether Thanks and Regards Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

citehr4karthi

Hi Karthik,

It has become very common for employees to abscond without serving the notice period, particularly in IT companies. However, we have to consider the situation from another perspective.

When we recruit a person to our company, are we giving them the necessary time to join? We often have our own deadlines and request them to join as soon as possible. Most companies have notice periods of 30 to 60 days, and our projects cannot always wait that long. As a result, we sometimes ask employees to join without proper relieving from their current company. This same scenario occurs when they leave our company as well.

While we may not be able to completely prevent this, we can reduce such occurrences by adopting a good recruitment policy. The recruitment plan should be prepared well in advance, and recruiters should be given sufficient time to fill positions.

Regards,
Karthik
29th November 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Karthik,

Thank you for your valuable comments. I absolutely agree with you that the recruitment policy has to be very strong so that we can plan the recruitment activities well in advance. The policies differ from organization to organization, but I can say only one thing: in our organization, we sometimes ask the candidate to negotiate the notice period, and in certain cases, we buy out the notice period as well. However, we don't take in people without a relieving letter or at least the resignation letter accepted by HR or management.

In my earlier posts, I have also mentioned that all of us are working under tremendous pressures of recruitment, and it becomes worse when an employee goes absconding. It becomes a chain reaction: an employee leaves our organization and joins another without a relieving letter. Then, I feel the pressure from management and the technical team to get someone on board within 7 days. I try to recruit people who can negotiate the notice period. Perhaps the HR of another company, with whom the employee tries to negotiate the notice period, faces a problem.

All I want to say is that in this entire cycle of events, it is we, the HR professionals, and the employees who are facing a problem. Let's take some corrective actions from our part so that the employees are also happy, we are also happy, and the management is also happy.

I know the kind of situation I am talking about might be practically impossible, but even if we achieve 50% success in this, it will be beneficial for all of us.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

ruchika_g1

Actually there is quite a lot we can acheive if we as responsible HR executives take stand on certain issues. It will not only make lives easier for us, but also put India back on the right track.
29th November 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Ruchika,

Thank you for such a wonderful, thought-provoking comment. Even if a single HR professional considers revising his or her views on the issue of relieving letters, I will not consider this post a waste of time and effort. Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

marut

Dear All,

Please forgive me for sounding judgmental here, but I feel everyone is only looking at their particular experience and not trying to understand why and what Indu said.

This isn't about Seniors and Juniors. This is not about Management and Hardworking employees either.

It's about Ethics. It is about Integrity. It is about respect and commitment.

When an employee joins an organization, they are subject to the culture, the politics, the ethos, and the rules and regulations of that company.

If they are dissatisfied with the salary, job profile, company culture, management decisions, or anything else that impacts them in the organization, then they have every right to pursue a better option and move on.

But no matter what their grudges, complaints, or problems with the company or management, no matter how much better the next option may be for their career, THEY ARE BEING UNETHICAL, UNPROFESSIONAL, AND IRRESPONSIBLE if they do not follow the proper exit procedures and rules. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

And it is true that the HR executives, especially those who are in the recruitment and staffing roles, behave in the above manner, rendering the entire recruitment industry "unprofessional" in the process.

The example being given by Guru... it is again the same unscrupulous recruitment executives, not taking responsibility for their decisions, and not bothering that someone will suffer because of their irresponsibility.

Indu has raised an important point in my view. Let's forget hierarchy levels and commit to the highest levels of responsibility and professionalism in our HR roles.

Regards,

Marut
29th November 2007 From India, Delhi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Vinove

Dear Site Members,

After going through the entire thread, I would say that to ensure that the recruitment, relieving, and the joining process is smooth and ethical, it is the responsibility of all of us and not just the employee or recruiter.

The recruiting firm, i.e., the potential employer, should follow ethical ways of recruitment. Proper reference checks should be done, relieving papers should be requested, and a reasonable time frame should be given for joining.

Now, here, it becomes the responsibility of the current employer to provide honest feedback and supporting documents.

The employee should resign and give reasonable notice to ensure that all his responsibilities are delegated. After doing so, he would receive his relieving documents from the company.

Briefly, the entire process is interlinked. Things need to be improved at all ends only then can we help each other.

It is like a chain wherein all of us are linked to each other, and we have to follow ethical ways at our end, and thus the rest of the things will automatically fall into place.

Let's help each other and ensure that we make the Recruitment Industry the most ethical one.

Thoughts/Suggestions invited.

Regards,

Bhavna

www.vinove.com
29th November 2007 From India, Delhi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear All,

Please forgive me for sounding judgmental here, but I feel everyone is only looking at their particular experience and not trying to understand why and what Indu said. This isn't about seniors and juniors. This is not about management and hardworking employees either. It's about ethics. It is about integrity. It is about respect and commitment.

When an employee joins an organization, they are subject to the culture, the politics, the ethos, and the rules and regulations of that company. If they are dissatisfied with the salary, job profile, company culture, management decisions, or anything else that impacts them in the organization, then they have every right to pursue a better option and move on. But no matter what their grudges, complaints, or problems with the company or management, no matter how much better the next option may be for their career, they are being unethical, unprofessional, and irresponsible if they do not follow the proper exit procedures and rules. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

It is true that HR executives, especially those in the recruitment and staffing roles, too many of them, behave in the above manner, rendering the entire recruitment industry "unprofessional" in the process. The example being given by Guru... it is again the same unscrupulous recruitment executives, not taking responsibility for their decisions, and not bothering that someone will suffer because of their irresponsibility. Indu has raised an important point in my view. Let's forget hierarchy levels and commit to the highest levels of responsibility and professionalism in our HR roles.

Regards,
Marut

Dear Mr./Ms. Marut,

I don't have enough words to thank you for this wonderful post. You have exactly portrayed in this post what I wanted to say. Keep posting your valuable views.

Best Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

supriyabodke16

Hi Gururaj,

First of all, your friend might have received an appointment letter stating the designation and job responsibilities, along with his reporting person's details. The appointment letter also states that both parties are bound by a certain period before exit, whether it is the employee resigning or the employer terminating. He can email these details to the higher authority of the company and get it resolved.

The solution by the company can be on HR by making policies clear or by paying him for the specified days in the appointment letter. If he has not received the above details from the company before joining, why did he sign a bond for the level of "Executive Secretary"? Now it's too late to wake up.

Regards,
Supriya (HR)
29th November 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

kumaranurag1982

Hi All,

I think that as HR professionals, we would all agree that in HR, there can be no set rules and theories. Every case has to be treated differently. What holds true for one may not apply to another.

When it comes to the process of relieving and hiring employees, I believe HR often plays a contradictory role. While we are eager for a new hire to start as soon as possible, we tend to hold on to employees when they are leaving. This inconsistency is problematic. The rules should be consistent in both scenarios.

Furthermore, seeking a new job or switching jobs is a fundamental right for everyone. We should not question this right. As employers, the main check we should conduct is on the individual's tenure and salary. Often, the previous employer may not provide a positive reference if approached. It is up to us, as the new employer, to evaluate the person's capabilities before making a job offer, instead of blindly accepting what the previous company says.

If we find the individual to be competent and capable, feedback from previous employers should focus solely on work experience (tenure), salary, and any outstanding dues.

Alternatively, as HR professionals, we should refrain from pressuring individuals to join quickly and instead acknowledge and appreciate them for serving their notice period with their current company.

Regards,

Anurag
29th November 2007 From United States

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi Indu,

I have also noticed that employees exit without a notice period because of the lack of knowledge about it. They have not been properly informed during their resignation. I am facing a strange problem here. We are an NBFC, and many individuals have left without notice due to harassment by a rogue manager, despite being performers. They are requesting dues, relieving letters, etc. I am unsure of what to do as I manage the region, and decisions need to be made at the HO. I have taken the initiative to speak with all of them and have sent a report to the HO. However, I have not heard anything since then.
29th November 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Nandita,

Thank you for your comments. I understand you are facing a significant challenge. My suggestion to you is to first have a conversation with the manager. Approach the discussion without immediately blaming him. Instead, try to investigate the matter to determine the validity of the complaints raised by the employees. Discuss his relationships with other team members, and if you find the complaints to be valid, involve the management to take necessary actions such as issuing a written warning.

It appears you have already taken a proactive step by sending a report to the Head Office. If you haven't received any response for any reason, your next option is to escalate the matter by forwarding the same report to higher authorities.

The most crucial step is to maintain communication with the employees, reassuring them that you are actively investigating the issue and working towards a resolution. Providing them with regular updates on the actions taken can help in building trust.

Considering these employees are performers, make an effort to persuade them to stay. However, if they still decide to leave, cooperate with them in the exit process and begin the search for their replacements. Remember, there is always a suitable replacement for every employee.

I wish you the best of luck, and I hope my advice is helpful to you.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Radha,

First of all, your post makes little or no sense to me. Let me point out that you have some personal grudges with an HR professional/professionals you have faced in your career, and for some reason (God knows what), it has left a bitter taste on your tongue, and you are just trying to vent it out on this community. My suggestion to you is whatever it may be, get it sorted out with your HR; don't carry baggage with you.

Let's come to the discussion of CTC. It means cost to company and includes all expenses that an employer makes on the employee. The contribution to the provident fund is also an expense for the employer and hence is shown in the CTC.

If you love whatever was done in the past, then I must say you are unwilling to accept changes and "people who don't change with time, they get extinct."

I invite your views, suggestions, and feedback which have relevance to this topic.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Rajeev Saini

You are right, Indrani. We have taken hard steps towards addressing absconding employees who have joined another organization with the help of fake documents and false commitments. So, guys, do not wait to take necessary actions because employees of this kind tarnish the reputation of your company in the corporate world.

Regards,
Rajeev
29th November 2007 From India, Delhi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Radha,

Thank you so much for your comments. Once again, your post has no relevance to the topic... Osama bin Laden and George Bush...?

I don't think you really understand the value of an HR professional in an organization or rather refuse to accept it just because you had some problem someday with some unfortunate HR. You are just trying to generalize things, Ms. Radha.

Anyways, keep posting... Your posts might seem interesting to other site HR members.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Rajwind,

Thank you so much for your comments. This post has been an eye-opener for me as Mr. Gururaj has pointed out that there are situations where an employee is also harassed by the employer, but in the rest of the cases where the employees play with the rules and regulations of the company, it's high time we join hands together to create a more ethical and healthy recruitment scenario.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

kumaranurag1982

Radha,

You have a very serious disconnect. The discussion here is for the proper exit of employees. Let's stick to the same. Moreover, if you have issues pertaining to HR policies, you might as well try to bring about some change to the system instead of cribbing.

The term CTC itself is self-explanatory; it means Cost to the Company. Even the employer's contribution is a cost incurred by a company, so why should it not be included in the CTC? Moreover, the breakup of the CTC is always given at the time of joining. So, as a professional, it is your responsibility to go through the same and clarify any doubts from the beginning.

If anything is hidden, then you can call it cheating. However, if everything is on paper and you still don't check, then it's your mistake; you cannot hold HR responsible for the same.

ALSO, THIS IS A PROFESSIONAL FORUM. PLEASE TRY TO STICK TO PROFESSIONAL LANGUAGE IN DISCUSSIONS.
29th November 2007 From United States

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr Anurag I thank you from the bottom of my heart for making an attempt to keep this post professional. Keep posting Thanks and Regards Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Sari

Hi Indrani,

Let me congratulate you for a very good post. Interesting thread.

Dear Ms. Radha,

Kindly come out of your trauma. If you have any doubts about CTC, check it with us. If you have any psychological traumas, go to a psychiatrist. My advice is to try meditation; you will overcome it.

Requesting you not to pollute the posts ever again.
29th November 2007 From India, Hyderabad

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi Sari Frankly speaking I am becoming a fan of your posts .You have hit the bull’s eye Thank you so much for the input Best regards Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Indrani,

I agree with you when you say that someone has to forge a change. This is a relatively new company, and if some rogues happen to tarnish their image, it is left to us in HR to try and make matters a little better for our employees.

I have the blessings from the HO. I guess it will take them some time to make a decision. I am prepared to send the employees an update every few days. These are people who have already left. The manager has already been asked to tone down his behavior to no avail. I am like - step 2, plan B.

Any department is made by the people working in it, whether it is HR, Sales, or Operations. It is only when we see it in the whole that the real picture comes forward. Therefore, Radha, it is not fair to say HR is bad news. You might have had a lousy experience; I have not. I have worked with some of the best in the profession with great feedback from our internal customers! I have learned and grown this way!

It's great chatting with you all!
29th November 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

cgnanij

I agree with you... we follow procedures for employee exit and we have exit interview process
29th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Indrani,

I agree with you when you say that someone has to forge a change. This is a relatively new company, and if some rogues happen to tarnish their image, it is left to us, in HR, to try and make matters a little better for our employees. I have the blessings from the HO. I guess it will take them some time to make a decision. I am prepared to send the employees an update every few days. These are people who have already left. The manager has already been asked to tone down his behavior to no avail. I am like - step 2, plan B.

Any department is made by the people working in it, whether it is HR, Sales, or Operations. It is only when we see it in the whole that the real picture comes forward. Therefore, Radha, it is not fair to say HR is bad news. You might have had a lousy experience, I have not. I have worked with some of the best in the profession with great feedback from our internal customers! I have learned and grown this way!

It's great chatting with you all!

Dear Ms. Nandita,

Nice to know you have already crossed one step and you are on step 2 :) Now, I guess you can send a written warning to the manager and also make him responsible for any work/project kept pending because the members in his team left abruptly. If I assume only the manager's behavior towards the team members is the only cause of this horrible situation, then make him do the share of work your old employees were supposed to do. I hope this helps you. Secondly, thank you for putting an appropriate comment for Ms. Radha. Please feel free to get in touch with me at

for further discussions.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Pinkii

No doubt looking for better opportunities is the right of every employee, and you know we cannot only give the onus to the organization. Many times, it happens that the basic problem lies with the employee's attitude, or sometimes, people in the organization mislead new employees by feeding them wrong information about appraisals, policies, leaves, etc.

I think the best approach is to provide comprehensive induction to new recruits before they actually join hands with other employees of the organization. Additionally, a mentoring system should be developed within the organization. This system would allow employees to share their grievances, successes, and problems related to the organization with a mentor who can truly understand their troubles by listening to them. This would enable the management to take necessary actions promptly.

Another important aspect is to gather feedback from employees on at least a bi-annual basis to bring underlying issues to the surface. Furthermore, HR should conduct trend analysis to identify departments where attrition rates are high, thereby pinpointing the root causes of the problem. One-on-one discussions and reviews of new recruits by existing employees can also be beneficial.

Regarding background checks, creating pseudo CVs, and similar practices, I believe that interviews are crucial in assessing a person during communication. Nowadays, organizations can also utilize various types of psychometric tests, such as the 16 PF, to understand an individual's inner self and commitment to the organization.

I believe that the aforementioned initiatives from the HR side can significantly address and alleviate this problem. What do you think?
29th November 2007 From India, New Delhi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

manohr@gmail.com

Hi 'Unusual' Indu, Radha & other friends..

This is a very sensitive topic that's raised and an actual 'nightmare' situation for the actual process owners. While I respect all the posts and point out that ALL had 'INPUTS', including Radha's.

I LOVE WHAT RUCHIKA HAS BROUGHT OUT - HR TAKING A STAND

But, the truth is not hidden - HR many a times (not all) has to follow instructions... and in such issues, in a talent-crunch situation, where projects can't wait, hiring is imperative, people are 'IMMEDIATELY' needed, taking a stand means Company's Loss... and one wouldn't actually want to suffer that.

Coming back to the initial post... Firstly, I think we need to understand the process - If an employee is acting irresponsibly, by absconding and quitting or any other means, why is he doing so?

Instead the question posted here is -

"Can we all HR professionals join hands together that we will try our level best to ensure that the employee submits his/her relieving letter/resignation acceptance when he/she joins an organisation?" and

"They put the company's reputation and business interest at stake but they succeed in fulfilling their own interests... is it fair?"

With all due respect and acceptance that your company is following the best practices...

I understand that when we say the company is doing everything, etc., etc.,

1. You're operating with a close mind

2. You're not open to any criticism, even constructive

3. And more importantly, you are not reading between the lines and ignoring the causes.

Before I go too far from the actual subject, let me make my point(s) --

Companies as they grow large get more disconnected with the bottom line.. and are not informed of what's brewing..

All employees need is value for their talent. If your company cannot pay for talent, and someone else can, why would one not go to the highest bidder?

Companies nowadays buy out employees. Not minding the amount.

I know of companies which don't care to do proper documentation while taking a new person on rolls. Implications - The candidate is ready to join next day if the hiring company has no qualms and is ready to compensate for whatever problems may arise.

And remember, the person may have left the company, but he sure is in touch with his colleagues.. This results in a chain reaction.. You need to put a check on this from spreading... This is for REAL.

About Radha's comments:

Perhaps we HR folks sometimes oversee this point Radha has raised, that employees do not understand the meaning of CTC (well, not all are as intelligent as we expect them to be). What I exactly am saying is, they confuse CTC with gross and end up disappointed as their expectations are not matching. I myself am appalled at some executives while on the job training, etc., how people can't understand what is told once and agreed on.

There was no offense meant in this.. when I say not all are as intelligent, I mean, mistakes happen.. and they must be expected.. it's humane..

Well... looking forward to more participation beyond comments & joining hands..

Best,

Manohar..
29th November 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi "Unusual" Indu, Radha & other friends,

"I understand that when we say the company is doing everything, etc., etc.,
1. You're operating with a closed mind.
2. You're not open to any criticism, even constructive.
3. And more importantly, you are not reading between the lines and ignoring the causes.
Manohar..."

Dear Mr. Manohar,

Thank you for your valuable suggestions. I agree with your above comments. Indeed, I was working with a closed mind, and that is the reason I have put forward my views on the open forum and invited suggestions from you all.

I also agree with you when you say that ex-employees are in touch with the current employees. Is there a way to stop this? Can you suggest something I can do about it?

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sengailingam

Dear Madam,

I am not an HR professional. I work in a PSU with over 40 years of experience in HR (Staff). Firstly, I want to emphasize that no organization can retain an uninterested employee, leading to significantly reduced output and contribution from that individual.

1. We should investigate the reasons why an employee is leaving the organization.

2. Secondly, we should instill a perception among employees that upon expressing their willingness to leave, they will be relieved within the organization's specified timeline.

3. To prevent the practice of employees leaving abruptly without notice, the organization may retain important documents such as the original academic qualification certificates in its custody. These documents can be returned to the employee upon their physical departure from the organization.

4. Employees could be required to deposit a reasonable amount, akin to a security deposit, in a bank either at the time of appointment or shortly after joining, within a reasonable timeframe. This deposit amount could incrementally increase each year, encouraging experienced employees to consider their actions carefully.

Hope this helps.
29th November 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sengailingam

Dear Madam,

I am not an HR professional. I work in a PSU with over 40 years of experience in HR (Staff). Firstly, I would like to emphasize that no organization can retain an uninterested employee, resulting in significantly lower output and contribution.

1. We should investigate why an employee is leaving the organization.

2. Additionally, we should establish a process where employees who express their desire to leave are relieved within the organization's specified timeframe.

3. To discourage employees from leaving abruptly without notice, the organization could retain important documents such as the original academic qualification certificates until the employee's departure.

4. Employees could be required to deposit a reasonable amount (similar to a security deposit) in a bank either upon appointment or shortly after joining, with the possibility of increasing this deposit annually to encourage more thoughtful consideration from experienced employees before leaving.

I hope these suggestions provide insight into your query.

Best wishes,

C K Jambulingam alias Sengailingam
29th November 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Madam,

I am not an HR professional. I am in a PSU with 40 years of experience in HR (Staff). At the outset, I would like to emphasize that no organization can retain an uninterested employee, resulting in significantly reduced output/contribution.

1. We must ascertain the reasons for an employee's departure from the organization.
2. Furthermore, we should instill a belief among employees that upon expressing their willingness to leave, they will be relieved within the organization's stipulated time frame.
3. To deter abrupt resignations without notice, the organization could retain important documents, such as the original academic qualification certificates, in its possession until the employee's physical departure.
4. Employees could be required to deposit a reasonable amount (similar to a Security Deposit) in a bank either at the time of appointment or shortly after joining, within a reasonable period. This deposit could increment annually, encouraging experienced individuals to consider their actions carefully.

I hope these suggestions offer some insight into your query.

Best wishes,
C K Jambulingam, also known as Sengailingam

Dear Mr. Sengalingam,

It is a pleasure to receive input from someone with such extensive experience. Thank you for your suggestions. I would like to mention that we used to retain original mark sheets of candidates at our branch office, located in a smaller town than Pune. However, employees here objected to submitting their originals, leading us to miss out on some good candidates. Consequently, we have discontinued this practice entirely.

Additionally, we have recently introduced a salary structure (which I have shared on the community platform) that incorporates a retention allowance. The funds accumulated in this allowance will be disbursed to the employee after completing one year of service.

Please continue sharing your insights.

Best Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

SRIRANGAN.V

Dear HR,

I am happy to see the post made by Indu. Let us join our hands to solve this issue. Please come to a common solution to resolve the issue. Please be in touch via my email: vsrirangan@sakthifinance.com

Thank you.
29th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

nandaranjeeta

Dear Indrani,

You are very correct in saying that we should ensure that the employee submits his/her resignation acceptance or relieving letter to the company. In fact, this is a must as we never know if this employee could have been employed in the previous company part-time, and according to our laws, one employee cannot be employed in two places simultaneously. However, many times, just because of high pressure, we simply ignore these things. Therefore, it becomes our prime responsibility to ensure that if the employee is showing experience, then he should have a relieving letter or acceptance of resignation.

The main reason behind such incidents is that either the management is not ready for a smooth release of an employee or the wrong intention of an employee (many times they think, "Let me get this month's salary, and then I will abscond" – this is mostly the case with BPO agents). I have also seen that employees submit resignations and request the earliest release from the job, being willing to comply with the agreement in the Appointment letter which states that they can either serve the notice period or provide their salary in lieu of notice. However, managers still insist on the notice period being served. As a result, employees often abscond in such cases. The question then arises: What should we do about it? In my opinion, either we should revise the agreement or be prepared for such incidents.

Guys, thoughts please...
29th November 2007 From India

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

K.Ravi

So many HR and so many views. Nothing left for me to say. Hope we get some meaningful conclusion from this, as not each situation and environment that the HR and employees face is similar. Here, the HR being from different cities and states, there is a wide difference in each one of them experiencing a different situation.

Many suggested many ways, but let's see which could practically be implemented in real life, and would it be beneficial to maximum people.
29th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sonal shree

Infosys had compelled employees to sign non-compete bonds to prevent them from joining other (rival) firms, and the result has been dissatisfaction.

So it's proved that employees will do what they like as long as there are greener pastures before them. And that's human nature. Even HR professionals will surely grab opportunities if that offers more in terms of job satisfaction or salary.

However, the exit process is of concern. It is not always possible to make the employer aware of one's plans for change (job) as the employer will not approve of it even though ethics demand that.

In certain European countries, hiring is done in line with the 'employment at will' principle which means that the employer or the employee can terminate the relationship any time with no liability if there was no contract for a definite term.

All that can and should be done is to ensure that the workplace provides job satisfaction and a cordial environment where there is a culture of listening.

Instead of Exit interviews, try Stay interviews and take regular feedbacks. The employees should be encouraged to speak their concerns and grievances, and they should be addressed rather than merely paying lip service. There are some companies which do not give sky-high salaries to their employees, yet the latter have been known to stick with them for more than 20 years. This suggests that employees look for a place where they can look forward to going every Monday.

As mentioned in one of the earlier posts, induction and mentoring help.

HR has often been accused of 'arrogance,' which is not true at all. At the same time, the fact that employees are the backbone of any organization and it is we who are responsible for them make us accountable for them.
30th November 2007 From India, Mumbai

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms Sonal Thank you for a truly enriching post .I will surely keep in mind the suggestions that has been put forward by you Keep posting Thanks and Regards Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi Indrani,

This is one area where no one can do anything about. People are most free to meet outside and talk about company, boss, salary, or the absence of it, HR, or anything else. We cannot do anything about it. It totally depends upon the employee and his ethics and values - in other words, it's personal! Thanks for inviting me to keep in touch. Will do so. This is a great forum to meet like-minded fellow HR professionals like you!

Can you also suggest which is the best MBA in HR to take in the Distance Learning mode? I am looking to join one. Is an MBA better than a Diploma in HRM? Need suggestions....

Regards, Nandita
30th November 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Nandita,

Thank you for your comments. I guess the distance learning course from ICFAI has value in the market. I will ask my batch mates about their views, but my personal view is that a part-time MBA after office hours, where you can attend classroom education, is always preferred over DLC if you want to continue your education alongside your job. Otherwise, it is great to have a full-time MBA HR degree as it adds value to your profile.

For any other queries, feel free to get in touch with me at my email id or just post a message. I will get back to you.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi Indu,

You are right from your point of view and analysis. We have to find the reason why this happens. As we are also under the list of employees, we have to do our best for the employees.

Guru, I feel we have to start a separate discussion to find a solution for the problems faced by the employees due to the unethical activities of the management.

Seniors, please suggest. PEER, Amit, and all my friends, what are your thoughts? No comments from your side.
30th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

PraveenIP

Dear Indu,

As long as the gap in supply and demand exists, there is no point in blaming HR for being unethical. As you know, all HR personnel are under pressure from their managements and teams to staff up with the required personnel in the shortest time.

At one point, I was also following your suggestion and wanted the HR community to be united. Later, I realized that this does not work as everyone else is hiring candidates without clean documents.

How are we going to achieve this if we stick to all the rules and policies? We try to follow as much as possible, but most of us break the rules at one point or another.

Remember, if we don't deliver, then we stand to lose our jobs! Especially after reading a report in yesterday's Times of India that all IT/ITES companies have deferred hiring HR/Admin and Accounts personnel due to the fall in dollar pricing. Most of us don't want to be in the market without a job!!!

I am with you, but the market will not allow us to be ethical!

Regards,

Praveen

Respected Seniors and dear colleagues,

First of all, let me thank you all for your replies to my previous posts.

I am facing a problem that all other members of the HR fraternity might have encountered at least once in their careers. The same old problem of an employee who has left the company without serving a notice period or giving any prior intimation to the HR department or management.

The said employee has joined another company and updated his resume on one of the job portals, which clearly indicates that either the background verification from their end was not strong enough, or the management/HR is not concerned about the relieving letter from the previous company, or he has concocted some story to justify his irresponsible behavior towards work.

Can all HR professionals join hands to ensure that employees submit their relieving letter/resignation acceptance when they join an organization?

Let's all unite to stop these unethical practices.

I am looking forward to a positive response from all you esteemed HR professionals.

I also invite your views, suggestions, and comments on the same.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Maria Merlin

Hi Indrani,

I agree with Vennila's view that in some cases, management is unethical towards employees as well as HR. I myself have been a victim of such practices. I need some senior's help in this regard.

I have over 7 years of experience in the HR field. It is through this experience that I am now in the position of Office Manager in a small software company. All the companies I have worked for have been very good. Due to some personal commitments, I resigned from a reputed company and stayed back at home for 8 months. After that break, I joined a small software company cum HR consultancy as an Executive - HR with a very low salary offered. However, considering my experience and dedication towards work, I received a hike within a month. Unfortunately, there were no written documents to confirm my increment, only oral communication. I received the higher pay for 3 months. However, after 3 months, the company faced a financial crisis, and we did not receive our salaries for 3 months. It is important to note that we did not sign any vouchers for the salary in any of those months. Since the management was close to the employees, many of us did not ask for the salary. Eventually, we decided to leave the company, and I joined another firm. Now, I am unable to claim my 3 months' salary. When I inquire with my previous employer, he states that he does not have the funds to pay the employees.

Seniors, please suggest what actions I can take. Can I pursue legal action against the company? I received more than the remuneration quoted in my offer letter. Additionally, I have not received my relieving order, experience certificate, or salary certificate from that company, which I need to submit to my current employer. What steps should I take to obtain all my documents and the outstanding salary?

I am eagerly awaiting valuable suggestions.
30th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Suresh Deshpande

Hi Indranil,

I understand the concern raised by you that employees are leaving their organization without proper notice or intimation. As someone said, there are also many cases wherein bosses of the resigned employees are not ready to let them go despite serving the full notice period.

As HR professionals, we need to be balanced in both situations. In the first case, the reference checks/background verifications are becoming part of the selection procedure and help greatly in filtering out the wrong candidates. In the second case, we need to ensure that the boss/supervisor of the resigned staff relieves the person who has resigned with dignity if proper notice is served.

Suresh.
30th November 2007 From India, New Delhi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Praveen,

Thank you so much for your views. I guess I was not very clear in my previous post. I would like to clarify that at no point have I blamed any HR for such a situation. I understand that HR professionals have to work under tremendous recruitment pressures, and nowadays, employees are also adept at presenting false CVs or convincing stories about why they lack a relieving letter.

I also agree with Mr. Gururaj's post that sometimes employees are harassed by employers. I simply wanted to raise awareness among the HR community that a clean exit procedure is essential for both employees and management. The HR's role in this scenario is crucial, so let's put in our 100% effort to ensure its success. While I acknowledge that this is a hypothetical situation, let's "hope for the best and prepare for the worst" :)

Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Kayal

Hi Indrani,

That's really a thought-provoking one, and a lot of HR fraternities have shared their views.

I would also like to add a few experiences we had in our company.

1. We hired a person who was the right fit for that position and as per the company policy, we wanted all the docs like relieving letter, service letter, etc. The guy requested time and promised to provide the same within 15 days, then 30 days, but the days kept getting extended, and he didn't produce the documents.

At one point, we needed to decide whether to entertain this or not. It became a debatable topic between HR and the Department head (as he was quite impressed with the employee). However, we, as HR of the organization, made it very clear that an employee should not be taken if the proper documents were not there. It was a tough decision (considering humanitarian aspects) but if we had made an exception for one person, others might follow the same.

2. During a reference check conducted by a consultancy, we discovered that one individual had provided an employee number, designation, work period, along with a copy of a relieving letter (prepared by him) to his current employer.

To our surprise, this person had never worked with us, and we were quite shocked. We shared this information with his current employer and the Consultant handling the reference check.

In such instances, employees might perceive HR as unfriendly or trying to harm someone's reputation. However, I believe that as HR professionals, we must uphold our values and set an example.

Looking forward to hearing your views.

Kayal
30th November 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

ralstonraz

Hi,

Yes, that is a sad situation. In some cases, it is a reality that we are left to live with, especially if the exiting employee has the skill sets that the recruiting company is in dire need of.

Reference checks are not followed to the 'T' in all cases. Only in data-sensitive organizations, where the employee's integrity is required to be like a whiteboard, do companies invest in a thorough reference check.

For companies using SAP, this issue is taken care of at a certain level. When an employee leaves a company that has SAP implemented for HRIS, the HR department can put a red flag on his profile in case the employee has left on a bad note. If this same employee joins another company that also has SAP implemented, the software does not allow the company to create the employee profile and throws up an error message. The recruiting company then has to request the details from the previous company. Since SAP is a software that is databased over the internet, the data is available across all users (companies).

Thus, the only solution is that we look inward in our recruitment policy and make reference checks an integral part of the system on which we base our hiring decisions.
30th November 2007 From India, Mumbai

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Maria,

Thank you for sharing your views. I am sorry to hear that you are facing such an unfortunate situation. My suggestion to you is to forget about the salary part (even though I understand it is hard-earned money) and concentrate on obtaining the necessary documents. Try to secure your relieving letter and experience certificate as these will be crucial in securing a better job in the future. Once you have the documents, then you can consider taking legal action to claim your dues (this is my personal opinion).

I hope this advice makes sense to you.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ralstonraz,

Thank you very much for your valuable comments. I have no exposure to ERP, and hence I was not aware of this functionality available within the SAP HR module. Thank you for educating me and other fellow community members on the same. Currently, I conduct reference checks on my own, but with the inputs that you have provided, I will endeavor to strengthen the system of background verification.

Thank you once again. Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr/Ms Kayal,

Thank you for your valuable comments and for sharing with us your experiences relevant to this topic. It feels great to know that you and your company are serious about ethics and values and adhere to the same even at the cost of losing a good candidate.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Sinharajnish

To continue from my last post...

Apart from the above problems, as an HR person, we must first identify other such issues before searching for solutions. We can certainly initiate a movement, but I feel it may be superficial. Our practices need to be so robust that they resonate with the core of the human factor within the organization. Ideally, individuals should not even consider leaving the organization. However, in extreme cases, if an employee does plan to leave, they should feel ethically bound to provide notice to the employer before departing.

HR should endeavor to track such individuals, if possible, and disclose the employee's facts to their new organization. Requesting that they adhere to the notice period. This proactive effort by HR will yield two significant outcomes: firstly, the employee will feel valued knowing their previous employer still cares, and secondly, the employer will exercise greater caution when dealing with such employees.

Regards,
Rajnish
30th November 2007 From India, Raipur

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Maria Merlin

Dear Ms. Indrani,

Thank you for your spontaneous reply and suggestion. In my case, I agree with your suggestion, and let me get my docs first. Even I thought of doing the same. This problem is not only for me; it is for all the employees. I feel that these kinds of management should be taught some lesson to realize what they are doing.

Regards,
Maria Merlin
30th November 2007 From India, Madras

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Hi Everyone,

Reference checks are another area where a discussion is needed. When the candidate provides you with references or you seek out someone who could provide information about the candidate, would the information really be kept confidential in that case?
30th November 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Nandita,

I agree with you that background verification can be an important area of discussion. These days, companies have started physical verification where they actually visit the previous offices of new joiners to gather information about them. Additionally, professional help from background verification agencies can also be sought.

I would like to share what I learned from a friend of mine. She carries two mobile phones, and when asked for a reference number, she provides one of her mobile numbers. She then pretends to be her own senior, answering all queries posed by the HR. Isn't it surprising?

Fortunately, or unfortunately, she has been getting away with this trick every time. However, she might face trouble if her profile undergoes scrutiny by a professional background verification agency.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

debashisroy

Dear Indrani,

What you say is true, but being in HR, I too have my experiences where the management feels that employees are bonded laborers and can deal with them any way they like, making their own laws.

We must realize that a clapping can always be done with two hands. The root cause analysis of every problem must be done to rectify it, instead of crying over spilt milk.

Why does such a situation arise when an employee behaves like that?

Why does he join another organization without proper relieving?

A lot of companies are facing resource crunch, and they do not usually go through the background checks of every new joiner if they find him/her suitable for the job.

It's also true that some companies have different ways to deter employees from thinking of joining other organizations easily by using the following means: bonds for 2 - 5 years / notice period of 2 - 3 months, etc.

On the other hand, employees must also understand that when companies spend a huge amount of time and money on their training and development, they must follow the right ethics of completing the assignments that they have been entrusted with before parting.

Exits should always be pleasing and graceful, a time to be remembered.

It is always a give-and-take relationship from both sides.

There are examples to show that in certain companies, employees come back and rejoin when they find their experiences elsewhere not to their liking.

Employees and employers cannot do without each other; they are partners in progress.

That relationship needs to be nurtured.

In an era when business means time and money, such a culture is hard to develop.

Well, these were my thoughts... experiences of my fellow HR members are sure to follow.

Regards,

Debashis
30th November 2007 From India, Lucknow

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Govil Nanda

Hey Indu,

I completely agree with you. I'm working in a manufacturing sector, and we have a quite high attrition rate, but still, we have made it a point that all the documents have to be intact, and we follow it religiously.

Looking forward to your comments.

Regards,
Govil Nanda
30th November 2007 From India, Delhi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

guru1967

Dear Indrani,

You have really initiated a good debate. What I was really impressed by was that throughout your reply, you have taken care to personally respect the member's viewpoint, whether his/her viewpoint is not in line with yours. Keep it up.

According to you and the situation you have described, your views are justified. But whoever it is, whether employee or employer, who has resorted to unethical practices just to fulfill their selfish needs, without concern for others, should be taught a good lesson so that the same is not repeated.

Regards,
Gururaj
30th November 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

K.Ravi

Another summarization: The HR professionals in this forum seem to think they are 100% perfect, and that fault always lies with the employees only. They get angry or irritated when someone points out weaknesses within HR or politics, as was done by Ms. Radha. HR professionals need to come out of their arrogance and think globally. Just because you may personally be a good HR person, it does not imply that the entire HR community in India or worldwide is flawless. Whenever someone highlights negative aspects of HR, individuals in HR tend to dismiss or criticize them, instead of reflecting on the issues within the HR domain. For a harmonious resolution, both HR professionals and employees must shift their mindsets. Some individuals believe that only employees should change and that they are as pure as milk.
30th November 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

dbalwani

Hi Indrani,

I am totally satisfied with your point of view. When it comes to HR marking policies, it is important to keep in mind for smooth functioning. As HR professionals, we insist that employees, when offered a position, join on an immediate basis.

I have also come across such incidents. While we are not asking for much, if employees can't serve notice, at least a resignation letter and exit formalities can be completed in immediate resignation cases. We have a recovery option available as well.

Dear seniors, please share your comments, feedback, and views on the same.

Deepshikha
30th November 2007 From India, New Delhi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

rajeshwari.ramachandran

Dear Sir/Madam,

I agree with you totally on the referral checks and the background checks. As a resource manager, we need to provide the company with all the information the organization requires in order to recruit the right candidate.

We can try the technique of continuous "know your employee" methods to find out what he intends to do in the near future. This approach would work for a small setup of 50 employees, but for a larger setup, an effective background check is necessary.

Regards,
Rajeshwari
1st December 2007 From United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

H@SS@N

Hello everyone,

It has been so interesting to view all your worthwhile replies regarding the above-mentioned topics. Here, I would like to add something that I feel is necessary to remember. According to Newton's Third Law of Motion, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I firmly believe that this principle applies everywhere and to everyone.

If an employee goes missing, it might be a reaction to something that led them to do so. There could be many reasons such as a lack of proper recruitment processes, organizational culture, issues with superiors, lack of counseling, and all the reasons that have already been mentioned in this discussion.

A very relevant part of a Ghazal on this topic is:
MUJHAI REHZANO SAI GILA NAHI
TERE REHBARI KA SAWAL HAI !!!

It is indeed essential to introspect.

Regards,
Hassan :)
1st December 2007 From Saudi+Arabia, Riyadh

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Hassan,

Thank you for your comments. Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty

P.S. I am not very well-versed in Urdu; hence, I would request you to explain the meaning of the Urdu phrase. :)
1st December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

H@SS@N

Dear Mr. Indrani,

Thank you so much for your interest. It is a great pleasure for me to share information, regardless of the language.

MUHJAI REHZANO SAI GILA NAHI TERE REHBARI KA SAWAL HAI

This means that we do not have any complaints against robbers who commit robberies, as that is what they do. However, we should raise concerns about our own safety and question why we have made ourselves so vulnerable that any stranger or robber can invade our space.

The work of a trainer is to train, just as the work of a robber is to commit robberies. This is their routine, so what is our task? It is to protect ourselves from potential invasions, damages, or anything that could harm our interests.

I hope this brings you comfort. :)

Regards,
Hassan :) :) :)
1st December 2007 From Saudi+Arabia, Riyadh

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

rgopi

Hello Indu,

I am not an HR person myself but run my own company here in Bangalore. I fully agree with your point of view that all HR departments should become very strict with respect to relieving letters from the previous employer unless there is a very valid reason for not being able to get the same, e.g., the company winds up overnight, or refusal to give the letter to the employee, etc.

I also need to stress another important point, especially nowadays in the IT industry where HR picks up candidates who have just worked for a couple of months with another company. I know a guy who left my company and joined 3 other companies within a span of 6 months. All these are fairly well-known companies in the IT industry. Just because the company has to recruit a large number of candidates and achieve their numbers, they also have to look at the longevity of the candidate as well.

We should not encourage both the above practices.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks,
Gopi
1st December 2007 From India, Bangalore

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Hassan,

Thank you for such an interesting comment and such a beautiful explanation. The lesson I have learned from these phrases I will remember for the rest of my life. Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
1st December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Mr. Gopi,

Hello Indu, I am not an HR person myself but run my own company here in Bangalore. I fully agree with your point of view that all HR departments should become very strict with respect to relieving letters from the previous employer unless there is a very valid reason for not being able to get the same, e.g., the company winds up overnight or refusal to give the letter to the employee, etc.

I also need to stress another important point, especially nowadays in the IT industry where HR picks up candidates who have just worked for a couple of months with another company. I know a guy who left my company and joined 3 other companies within a span of 6 months. All these are fairly well-known companies in the IT industry. Just because the company has to recruit a large number of candidates and achieve their numbers, they also have to look at the longevity of the candidate as well.

We should not encourage both of the above practices. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks,
Gopi

Thank you for your valuable comments. Through your comments, we can see the picture from a completely different angle, i.e., from the point of view of an entrepreneur. Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
1st December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

H@SS@N

Dear Mr.Indrani Chakraborty Thank you very much Mr. Indu for your liking & finding something worthwhile. Wishing you all the best. All is yours !!!!! Regards Hassan :) :)
1st December 2007 From Saudi+Arabia, Riyadh

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

rekhishelly

hi all I think we all should join hands certainly and help to take this movement long long ahead.......
3rd December 2007 From India, Chandigarh

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sowjanyam

Hi Indrani and fellow members,

My Monday (3rd of Dec) started with the topic of a clean exit - ethics for employees and management.

A QA engineer in my company has not been coming for the last 15 to 20 days. I knew that he is very dissatisfied and frustrated with the management policies. He was the victim of unethical quality practices from the management's side. He wanted to teach a lesson and punish the management, so he absconded from work.

My management asked a production engineer (an old-timer) not to come to work from the next day. No one-month notice was given, no one-month salary, and no proper exit.

This Production Engineer and QA engineer are friends. The QA guy joined the new company where this Production Engineer is working now. Nobody except me (HR) and my CEO know this. Now my management wants to take strict disciplinary action against the QA guy.

The QA guy says, "When you don't follow the rules (one-month notice for termination), why should I give notice to you?"

What should I do? This is not the time to discuss who is right and who is wrong. I know both are wrong, but what should I do?

Regards,

Sowjanya
3rd December 2007 From India, Ranchi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

saisreedhara

Dear Indirani,

An organization generally should favor the employees over the management because in the present-day market, if a company pays a salary, they can easily substitute manpower. It is not fair if they try to jeopardize the future of the employee.

Thank you.
3rd December 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Saisreedhara,

Thank you for your comments, but I beg to differ with you. I believe HR is a bridge between the management and employees and should consider the well-being of both parties and the organization as a whole. HR is tasked with balancing the needs of management and employees effectively.

Keep posting!

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
3rd December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

H@SS@N

:oops: :oops: :oops: I am extremely sorry Ms. Indirani, I have taken notice, from now I will add Ms. with your good name. Regards Hassan
3rd December 2007 From Saudi+Arabia, Riyadh

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Sowjanya,

I don't think I have understood your post completely. Let me first summarize my understanding of the situation.

First incident: An old-timer in your company, a production engineer, was asked by the management to leave the organization, or we can say his services were terminated with immediate effect.

Second incident: A QA engineer, who is a close friend of the production engineer, has gone missing to seek revenge on the company and has joined his friend, the production engineer, in his new organization.

Background: The CEO and HR are aware of both incidents. Additionally, the HR is aware that the QA engineer faced internal office politics and was frustrated with the management, leading to his actions.

Now, before I offer any suggestions, I would like to clarify a few things.

In the first incident, why was the production engineer terminated immediately? There must have been a significant reason for such a drastic decision.

Regarding the second incident, if both the CEO and HR are aware of the QA engineer's motives, did you attempt to counsel the employee? If yes, what was the outcome? If no, why not?

Once I receive confirmation that I have understood your post correctly and answers to my questions, I would be in a better position to provide advice.

This is an interesting issue you've raised, and I am eager to participate in the discussion.

Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
3rd December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

saisreedhara

Dear Indirani i agree that HR is a bridge between management ant employees but practically speacing an HR is an an employee who report and acts on behalf of management . so should be very partial
3rd December 2007

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

H@SS@N

Dear Sowjanya,

This is really an interesting question raised by you, and the points which have been put up by Ms. Indrani for getting more clarification should be taken into consideration for further exploration of your question. I am also waiting for updates on this case.

Regards,
Hassan :)
3rd December 2007 From Saudi+Arabia, Riyadh

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

H R SINGH

Recruitment scenarios have been changing very fast. Even prospective employers, in order to attract the best talent or in emergent cases, ask the incumbent to join them. If the notice period is deducted from the previous employer, the same is reimbursed to the new employee. In the fast-developing economy, some industries are finding it hard to recruit experienced employees, and they are willing to go beyond the industry norms.

Regards,
3rd December 2007 From India, Mumbai

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

PratibhaH

Hi All,

I think there is a disconnect. These are two things: 1. No exit formalities completed and 2. No job description.

No exit formalities may be due to various reasons:
1. Frustrated due to low efficiency, politics, partiality, etc.
2. From another state and is absconding, and his exp/relieving letter doesn't make any difference to him.
3. The company is not ready to relieve as he/she is not ready to serve the notice period or complete the notice period, and the other employer says he is okay with no relieving letter as their requirement is urgent.

Here is the system set strong enough to make sure that the employee completes the exit formalities (bond) and the management is open to talk with the employee about such probabilities.

Importantly: The HR should have a log of the reasons for no exit formalities done. That's more important to keep track of the loopholes to avoid such exits and bring the percentage to a minimum.

Also, I think there should be some blacklisting platform available to check the records.
3rd December 2007 From China

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

PratibhaH

Guys, please bare with me as my comment was for one post related to no job discription. It got posted without the earlier log, me being a new user. Thx
3rd December 2007 From China

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sowjanyam

Hi Indrani,

Good morning. Thanks for your reply. You understood my point rightly.

Background: The production engineer was terminated because we didn't have a handful of orders, and we are in a lay-off of the labor. Management thought the Production Engineer's salary is high, so if we remove him, we can reduce some burden (a very unprofessional approach). So, he was terminated with immediate effect. I, as HR, objected to the idea, but they (MD and Director) terminated him without informing me and the CEO. It was a shock to everyone in the factory.

The QA guy was absconding due to harassment from the management side. He joined his friend, the Production Engineer, in another firm without any notice. I have sent a warning notice and asked him to join the duties, but he is not responding. [Mobile Off... courier came back]. My CEO and I know that he is working with the Production Engineer. He is not interested in meeting or talking to us even casually.

Twist in the Story:
Yesterday, my Director came to know that both are working together. Now, he is asking me to get the phone number of the company where my QA guy recently joined and talk to the Director.

WHAT TO DO........

Regards,
Sowjanya
4th December 2007 From India, Ranchi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

sowjanyam

If I give the contact number, my director will talk to that director. This QA guy's career will be in trouble. If I won't give, he will sit on my head, and he can get it any way.

Regards,
Sowjanya
4th December 2007 From India, Ranchi

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

richa_ferns

Hi All,

I have been following this post. As one of our friends mentioned, there are 2 sides to a coin.

If employees are leaving without intimation/notice, surely there have to be loopholes in the processes/systems encouraging employees to follow such practices.

As for other companies not doing thorough background checks...well, the reality is today the demand is much more than supply. The industry has been booming like never before. All sectors, not just IT, are experiencing this. Thus, putting pressure to hire resources within specified deadlines.

Take an example...if there was a critical opening in your company and you have interviewed candidates for this position and shortlisted 2 of them.

You do a background verification and find that the best fit candidate has not got a proper release from his/her previous company for whatever reasons and the other candidate, who is not the best but has an impeccable record. Which one would you hire? You may say the second best because of his impeccable record. Okay, so you hire the second best and a few months down the line, you realize he/she is good but not good enough for the position. You move him/her to a more relevant role or put them on the bench and start the process again. What happens in this scenario, you have lost valuable time in the past and are now again losing time and maybe business as you have to start the process again.

Had you hired the best option, maybe this could have been avoided. This is the reality check. With cut-throat competition and demand far exceeding supply, organizations have accepted a little leeway. They hire candidates without a proper release and monitor his/her performance, behavior, etc., and ensure their choices are not wrong. At the end of the day, if they get a superior candidate albeit with some blemishes, they will choose to turn a blind eye to those blemishes.

- Richa
4th December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Ms. Richa,

Thank you for explaining the scenario from a realistic point of view. I just wanted to ask you one question. What if the "best option" repeated his actions in your organization too, in the sense that after working for a month or so when he has already been assigned to a project, he leaves your company without any notice? Then... But I agree that perhaps if I would have been in your situation, I would have also crumbled under recruitment pressure and hired the "best option". I made this post just to know that this kind of compromise that we are making in terms of value and ethics, is it worth it?

Keep posting.

Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
4th December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

Dear Sowjanya,

I am sorry for the delay in reply. The case is getting complicated day by day. I have a few more questions to add:

1. Do you have copies of the offer letter, appointment letter, or confirmation letter signed by the QA engineer? If "yes," only then can your company take some legal actions against him.

2. As per my understanding, the QA engineer must have informed the management of the new company under what circumstances he left his previous company without notice. So, even if your director now calls up that company's director, it will have little or no effect.

3. You are working as an HR of the company, and you are an "HR" in the true sense because you care about your employees. But always remember, you don't own the company; you are an employee. Therefore, you have to obey the orders from the management. Don't feel guilty about "giving the director the other director's number and potentially affecting the career of the QA engineer." You are just doing your job. Also, remember that the QA engineer left the company without notice, which is "WRONG," regardless of the reasons. So, if you have to take action on this, you are "just doing your job."

4. If you feel that your personal values, ethics, or your way of working are not aligned with your management, start looking for another job.

5. The CEO of the company holds a lot of power in his hands, so ask him to discuss this issue with the management.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Thanks and Regards,

Indrani Chakraborty
4th December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)

richa_ferns

Hi Yes, hiring the best option is a risk so is hiring the second best. If risk has to be taken, then why not take it with the best.
4th December 2007 From India, Pune

Acknowledge(0)

Amend(0)