My boss, the Associate Vice President of an Indian company, spends most of his office time doing personal things such as going to a nearby gym, spa, salon, etc. During our tours together, I have observed him spending most of his time drinking in luxurious hotels and pools. He often manages to avoid his boss since the boss is located in another city. What's even worse is that, being a bachelor, he comes to the office on Sundays and expects us to do the same. Additionally, he takes advantage of his subordinates by having them prepare his presentations, leaving them with no choice but to work late into the night out of fear of receiving negative feedback, while the AVP himself enjoys parties elsewhere.
I have subtly raised this issue with our local HR, but to no avail. Is there any action that the labor board or other relevant authorities can take to address this behavior? My company doesn't seem to be concerned about it. Please note that it is clearly stated in the employee area: "WORKING HOURS 10AM-6PM, MONDAY TO SATURDAY."
Thank you.
Regards.
From India, Calcutta
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I have subtly raised this issue with our local HR, but to no avail. Is there any action that the labor board or other relevant authorities can take to address this behavior? My company doesn't seem to be concerned about it. Please note that it is clearly stated in the employee area: "WORKING HOURS 10AM-6PM, MONDAY TO SATURDAY."
Thank you.
Regards.
From India, Calcutta
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Dear Saumya,
What is happening is quite unfortunate. Just yesterday, there was a post titled "Personal Business During Working Hours." I have given a reply to this post. But at least the person who spent time on personal activities was a junior one and not an AVP, as in your case.
The Role of a Senior-Level Position
A senior-level position becomes a sinecure when no deliverables are attached to that position. What is the function of this AVP? Is he from Ops, Marketing, Sales, or something else? What is the nature of your industry? These kinds of things happen when:
• Proper measures of performance are not well in place. How is the work measured on quality, quantity, accuracy, timeliness, etc.? How come no fault is happening on this count, and how is he escaping from customer dissatisfaction or anything else?
• Your AVP's boss has poor leadership skills. Neither is he controlling his immediate junior, i.e., AVP, nor is he in touch with the grassroots employees. There is a clear disconnect.
• HR should have been proactive in finding out what is happening and passing on confidential reports to the organization's head. Now even after bringing this fact to the notice of HR, they are laid back. This could be because of two reasons: either HR also has a ceremonial role or if they have adequate power, then they do not know how to exercise it.
• Who would like to work under these kinds of managers? This also is the cause of attrition. Seniors are supposed to be role models. What motivation can juniors have from this type of AVP?
Possible Solutions
Now coming to a solution. Anyway, enjoyment is written in the fate of a certain type of people. Nothing can be done if your MD is supporting this AVP.
How many persons work in your office? How come nobody has differences with this person? If you wish to take on this person, then somehow generate evidence of his absence from the office and send it anonymously to MD. See if something happens.
Other seniors may contribute their ideas.
Thanks,
Dinesh V Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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8072What is happening is quite unfortunate. Just yesterday, there was a post titled "Personal Business During Working Hours." I have given a reply to this post. But at least the person who spent time on personal activities was a junior one and not an AVP, as in your case.
The Role of a Senior-Level Position
A senior-level position becomes a sinecure when no deliverables are attached to that position. What is the function of this AVP? Is he from Ops, Marketing, Sales, or something else? What is the nature of your industry? These kinds of things happen when:
• Proper measures of performance are not well in place. How is the work measured on quality, quantity, accuracy, timeliness, etc.? How come no fault is happening on this count, and how is he escaping from customer dissatisfaction or anything else?
• Your AVP's boss has poor leadership skills. Neither is he controlling his immediate junior, i.e., AVP, nor is he in touch with the grassroots employees. There is a clear disconnect.
• HR should have been proactive in finding out what is happening and passing on confidential reports to the organization's head. Now even after bringing this fact to the notice of HR, they are laid back. This could be because of two reasons: either HR also has a ceremonial role or if they have adequate power, then they do not know how to exercise it.
• Who would like to work under these kinds of managers? This also is the cause of attrition. Seniors are supposed to be role models. What motivation can juniors have from this type of AVP?
Possible Solutions
Now coming to a solution. Anyway, enjoyment is written in the fate of a certain type of people. Nothing can be done if your MD is supporting this AVP.
How many persons work in your office? How come nobody has differences with this person? If you wish to take on this person, then somehow generate evidence of his absence from the office and send it anonymously to MD. See if something happens.
Other seniors may contribute their ideas.
Thanks,
Dinesh V Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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This is a complaint I have come across many times. My only advice is to concentrate on your own work and ensure it is first class. There is no need to meet his expectations to come in on Sundays. Just do not turn up and see what he says, probably nothing.
I do wonder, though, given his style as you see it, why does he come in on Sunday? Is it to catch up on his work? As far as you doing his work, I can only suggest that you make some subtle errors; either he will pick them up and eventually start doing his own work, or he will miss them and his boss will pick them up, and he will have to deal with the consequences.
Authorities, such as the Labor Board, have no powers to dictate what senior managers get up to as long as it is not illegal. Don't worry about what your boss gets up to. It will all catch up with him sooner or later.
I hope the above helps and gives some food for thought.
Regards,
Harsh
From United Kingdom, Barrow
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I do wonder, though, given his style as you see it, why does he come in on Sunday? Is it to catch up on his work? As far as you doing his work, I can only suggest that you make some subtle errors; either he will pick them up and eventually start doing his own work, or he will miss them and his boss will pick them up, and he will have to deal with the consequences.
Authorities, such as the Labor Board, have no powers to dictate what senior managers get up to as long as it is not illegal. Don't worry about what your boss gets up to. It will all catch up with him sooner or later.
I hope the above helps and gives some food for thought.
Regards,
Harsh
From United Kingdom, Barrow
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Issues with Multi-Level Marketing Company Practices
It's a highly disorganized Multi-Level Marketing company, and you know how murky dealings are in these types of companies. The company is Xxxxxxx, and my AVP's name is Xxxxxxx. He has also been using company funds for his own spending (as finance reports to him and there is no proper audit system in place). Also, he has been found involved in various integrity and infidelity issues with female co-workers, but everyone in the region turns a blind eye to it—some due to fear of losing their job and some to favor him.
Lack of Proper Appraisal System
There is no proper appraisal system, and those who are in the good books of Mr. Xxx (due to unethical favors) are well appraised, while those who refuse get the raw deal. As far as the customer dissatisfaction issue is concerned, he is never at the forefront in this people's business (the sales drive is by company policy by the MLM networkers and not by management). So, as long as he keeps the top leaders happy by whatever means, he keeps complaints at bay.
Moderator's note: I found this on a new thread and have merged it here. Apparently, Ms. Somya was trying to give more information and respond to the queries. However, it seems that by mistake, she started another thread.
The names of the person and company have been masked.
03/09/2013
From India, Calcutta
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It's a highly disorganized Multi-Level Marketing company, and you know how murky dealings are in these types of companies. The company is Xxxxxxx, and my AVP's name is Xxxxxxx. He has also been using company funds for his own spending (as finance reports to him and there is no proper audit system in place). Also, he has been found involved in various integrity and infidelity issues with female co-workers, but everyone in the region turns a blind eye to it—some due to fear of losing their job and some to favor him.
Lack of Proper Appraisal System
There is no proper appraisal system, and those who are in the good books of Mr. Xxx (due to unethical favors) are well appraised, while those who refuse get the raw deal. As far as the customer dissatisfaction issue is concerned, he is never at the forefront in this people's business (the sales drive is by company policy by the MLM networkers and not by management). So, as long as he keeps the top leaders happy by whatever means, he keeps complaints at bay.
Moderator's note: I found this on a new thread and have merged it here. Apparently, Ms. Somya was trying to give more information and respond to the queries. However, it seems that by mistake, she started another thread.
The names of the person and company have been masked.
03/09/2013
From India, Calcutta
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I have a different take on your situation, closer to Harsh's.
Details Required for Better Suggestions
First of all, please provide more details about your role, designation, and responsibilities. Since when have you been working in this company? Providing this information will enable members to give well-focused suggestions.
Considering the Benefits of Action
Regarding the queries you raised, before discussing the possibilities of any action that may/can be taken against this AVP, how will you benefit from any potential action? Are you aiming for his position, or do you expect a raise or promotion?
This is not to say that the issue you raised is wrong or incorrect. What I am trying to emphasize is looking at the situation from different perspectives.
Perspective #1: AVP's Track Record
You have only mentioned the current behavioral pattern of the AVP. You have not mentioned anything about his earlier track record in the company. For all you know, he may have already proven his worth to the company, and because of which, he is being given some leeway in how he operates now. It could be just a coincidence that you started working with him after he proved his worth?
Perspective #2: Control Over the Situation
Irrespective of what the AVP does or doesn't do, is he or his actions within your control? Obviously, not. What's in your control is how you work. It's up to you on what you make of it, for the better or worse.
Obviously, you are not doing your work because you have to do it or you love your work. Your line ".....getting his presentations done by them who have no option but to burn midnight oils for his boss in fear of negative feedback...." is a clear indication.
Frankly, such an attitude towards work, at any level, wouldn't take one very far. And even if one manages to progress not due to efficiency or commitment but through other means, the price of such success would surely be very high. The choice is again the individual's, followed by the consequences of such actions, which, undoubtedly, the individual will have to pay at some time or the other.
Perspective #3: Opportunity to Learn
You have not mentioned your experience or designation level. If it's not a high level, usually this is the chance one gets to learn. I am not sure, but if you are suggesting that doing/making presentations doesn't give you any learning, frankly, I think you are wrong. Even the simplest acts like watering a plant always offer a scope to learn. It's for the individual to figure out and decide if he/she wants to learn or only work for the salary received at the end of the month.
And if you wish to say that 'I want to learn this but not that', suggest focusing on what you already have on your plate, and not what you want later on. Maybe, by such acts, your AVP is—without realizing—giving you a chance to learn new things? Something that you wouldn't have had the opportunity for in the normal situation?
Perspective #4: Considering Resignation
If you are really vexed and can't take it anymore, why didn't you quit?
If this response disappointed or hurt you, that wasn't the intent.
All the best.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Details Required for Better Suggestions
First of all, please provide more details about your role, designation, and responsibilities. Since when have you been working in this company? Providing this information will enable members to give well-focused suggestions.
Considering the Benefits of Action
Regarding the queries you raised, before discussing the possibilities of any action that may/can be taken against this AVP, how will you benefit from any potential action? Are you aiming for his position, or do you expect a raise or promotion?
This is not to say that the issue you raised is wrong or incorrect. What I am trying to emphasize is looking at the situation from different perspectives.
Perspective #1: AVP's Track Record
You have only mentioned the current behavioral pattern of the AVP. You have not mentioned anything about his earlier track record in the company. For all you know, he may have already proven his worth to the company, and because of which, he is being given some leeway in how he operates now. It could be just a coincidence that you started working with him after he proved his worth?
Perspective #2: Control Over the Situation
Irrespective of what the AVP does or doesn't do, is he or his actions within your control? Obviously, not. What's in your control is how you work. It's up to you on what you make of it, for the better or worse.
Obviously, you are not doing your work because you have to do it or you love your work. Your line ".....getting his presentations done by them who have no option but to burn midnight oils for his boss in fear of negative feedback...." is a clear indication.
Frankly, such an attitude towards work, at any level, wouldn't take one very far. And even if one manages to progress not due to efficiency or commitment but through other means, the price of such success would surely be very high. The choice is again the individual's, followed by the consequences of such actions, which, undoubtedly, the individual will have to pay at some time or the other.
Perspective #3: Opportunity to Learn
You have not mentioned your experience or designation level. If it's not a high level, usually this is the chance one gets to learn. I am not sure, but if you are suggesting that doing/making presentations doesn't give you any learning, frankly, I think you are wrong. Even the simplest acts like watering a plant always offer a scope to learn. It's for the individual to figure out and decide if he/she wants to learn or only work for the salary received at the end of the month.
And if you wish to say that 'I want to learn this but not that', suggest focusing on what you already have on your plate, and not what you want later on. Maybe, by such acts, your AVP is—without realizing—giving you a chance to learn new things? Something that you wouldn't have had the opportunity for in the normal situation?
Perspective #4: Considering Resignation
If you are really vexed and can't take it anymore, why didn't you quit?
If this response disappointed or hurt you, that wasn't the intent.
All the best.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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I agree with TS's comments. Take it positively. You are getting good opportunities for learning. Learn the job, and your profile will be rich. Think of it as part of delegation by your AVP. I have seen some bosses who never delegate for fear of losing identity, and that is worse than this situation.
Leave all other conduct-related issues to the Management. As an experienced HR Head, I can vouch that such kinds of indiscipline will come to the notice of top management very soon, and the AVP will have to pay for it. You need to be cool and do whatever official assignments/presentations given by your boss and do them with efficiency.
As somebody said above, do not incorporate mistakes, failing which the AVP will lose confidence in you, and your career will suffer.
Thanks,
Regards, Haragopal GM-HR SSPL, Hyderabad
From India, Hyderabad
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Leave all other conduct-related issues to the Management. As an experienced HR Head, I can vouch that such kinds of indiscipline will come to the notice of top management very soon, and the AVP will have to pay for it. You need to be cool and do whatever official assignments/presentations given by your boss and do them with efficiency.
As somebody said above, do not incorporate mistakes, failing which the AVP will lose confidence in you, and your career will suffer.
Thanks,
Regards, Haragopal GM-HR SSPL, Hyderabad
From India, Hyderabad
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There are some inconsistencies in this post and some points of view as TS said earlier.
1. Senior Management Flexibility
Senior management has a lot of leeway in many companies. It depends on how they deliver. If they achieve the desired results, the bosses are not going to bother them. It does not matter if they take an hour off at the gym or spend half a working day at the golf course. There is nothing you can do about it until you yourself reach a high management post.
2. VP's Conduct During Tours
Your VP on tour spends all his time drinking and lounging in the pool? Are you with him at that time? Or are you elsewhere? If you are elsewhere, how do you know he was "boozing"? If you were with him, I would like to know what you were doing.
Also, the purpose and frequency of the trip make a difference. I know of some high-stress jobs where VP-level persons would be encouraged to take a few days off every six months by accompanying outstation trips to get away from the office and at the same time keep an eye on the work the team is doing.
The main question is, what was the trip for? How were the objectives attained/met if the VP was in the pool all the time? I am sure if the objectives are not met, then the VP would be questioned by his boss.
3. Working on Sundays
Working on a Sunday is something I frown upon. But the question is, how many Sundays in a year is a person called in? Every Sunday (then definitely needs to be taken up with HR or directors). Different people are called on each Sunday with you affected twice a quarter? In that case, you should not be crying too much.
Again, what is the Sunday call for? Is it something that can't be done during the workweek? Is it to meet a reporting Monday deadline (weekly reporting? Monthly reporting?) You can always avoid Sundays by saying you have a prior appointment that can't be changed.
4. Presentation Responsibilities
Do you actually expect a VP to make his own presentation? Which world are you in? Everywhere, whether in India or in Western countries, presentations are made by juniors, verified by and at times corrected by the VP for his use. Why do people have to burn the midnight oil? Is the presentation given at the last moment? Always? Or do corrections come at the last minute? (Again, this is common all over the world).
5. Options for Addressing Concerns
What options do you have? On paper, you can complain to HR or to a grievance committee in the office. In reality, you have none. Any complaint you make will finish your career there. It is obvious the VP is well respected by the management.
If you find the work environment unacceptable, change your job. But don't be surprised if the same situation is at your new office.
I would like to know the answers to my queries as it makes for a good case study.
From India, Mumbai
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1. Senior Management Flexibility
Senior management has a lot of leeway in many companies. It depends on how they deliver. If they achieve the desired results, the bosses are not going to bother them. It does not matter if they take an hour off at the gym or spend half a working day at the golf course. There is nothing you can do about it until you yourself reach a high management post.
2. VP's Conduct During Tours
Your VP on tour spends all his time drinking and lounging in the pool? Are you with him at that time? Or are you elsewhere? If you are elsewhere, how do you know he was "boozing"? If you were with him, I would like to know what you were doing.
Also, the purpose and frequency of the trip make a difference. I know of some high-stress jobs where VP-level persons would be encouraged to take a few days off every six months by accompanying outstation trips to get away from the office and at the same time keep an eye on the work the team is doing.
The main question is, what was the trip for? How were the objectives attained/met if the VP was in the pool all the time? I am sure if the objectives are not met, then the VP would be questioned by his boss.
3. Working on Sundays
Working on a Sunday is something I frown upon. But the question is, how many Sundays in a year is a person called in? Every Sunday (then definitely needs to be taken up with HR or directors). Different people are called on each Sunday with you affected twice a quarter? In that case, you should not be crying too much.
Again, what is the Sunday call for? Is it something that can't be done during the workweek? Is it to meet a reporting Monday deadline (weekly reporting? Monthly reporting?) You can always avoid Sundays by saying you have a prior appointment that can't be changed.
4. Presentation Responsibilities
Do you actually expect a VP to make his own presentation? Which world are you in? Everywhere, whether in India or in Western countries, presentations are made by juniors, verified by and at times corrected by the VP for his use. Why do people have to burn the midnight oil? Is the presentation given at the last moment? Always? Or do corrections come at the last minute? (Again, this is common all over the world).
5. Options for Addressing Concerns
What options do you have? On paper, you can complain to HR or to a grievance committee in the office. In reality, you have none. Any complaint you make will finish your career there. It is obvious the VP is well respected by the management.
If you find the work environment unacceptable, change your job. But don't be surprised if the same situation is at your new office.
I would like to know the answers to my queries as it makes for a good case study.
From India, Mumbai
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I have read the messages in this thread with interest. Whenever we post messages without enough information about the scenario, more questions are generated than solutions are given.
Examples from Experience
Let me quote a few examples from my experience of how bosses get away with certain behaviors and how some of their requests help us to learn. When I was a kid, I had known a Deputy Registrar of an institution who stayed late every evening until 8 PM and then went home. Some workers were forced to stay late. During the daytime, he spent time reading newspapers. The rumor was that his family life was not good, and hence, to avoid hassle at home, he stayed late at work. When the position of the Registrar became vacant, he got that job.
Where I worked, once a boss came and asked for someone to help him write his presentation on a new Productivity Bonus Scheme, as his handwriting was not good. Those were the days when computers were not known. In academia, it is quite customary for a professor to get his work done by research scholars. Research scholars, in turn, learn from the guidance that the professor provides. Some professors are known to have written hundreds of papers, as they expect their name to be put on every paper written by their students. One Dean of a Business School took the help of a number of staff to get a book on Ethics published; he only mentioned their contribution in the foreword, pocketed all the royalty, and was given the title of Professor by the university for publishing the book.
In a hospital, the head of cancer research gets most of the research work done by his subordinates and attends conferences and liaises with companies for funds, which involves international travel, etc. His juniors learn how to prepare effective presentations and write papers under his guidance.
Apparently, a bank manager played golf during working hours; however, he was making friends with hospital consultants, etc., who had days off and were playing golf; he was generating business during such outings.
I take this opportunity to appeal to bloggers to give all the details of a scenario at the outset to save time and effort of advisors in generating questions.
From United Kingdom
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Examples from Experience
Let me quote a few examples from my experience of how bosses get away with certain behaviors and how some of their requests help us to learn. When I was a kid, I had known a Deputy Registrar of an institution who stayed late every evening until 8 PM and then went home. Some workers were forced to stay late. During the daytime, he spent time reading newspapers. The rumor was that his family life was not good, and hence, to avoid hassle at home, he stayed late at work. When the position of the Registrar became vacant, he got that job.
Where I worked, once a boss came and asked for someone to help him write his presentation on a new Productivity Bonus Scheme, as his handwriting was not good. Those were the days when computers were not known. In academia, it is quite customary for a professor to get his work done by research scholars. Research scholars, in turn, learn from the guidance that the professor provides. Some professors are known to have written hundreds of papers, as they expect their name to be put on every paper written by their students. One Dean of a Business School took the help of a number of staff to get a book on Ethics published; he only mentioned their contribution in the foreword, pocketed all the royalty, and was given the title of Professor by the university for publishing the book.
In a hospital, the head of cancer research gets most of the research work done by his subordinates and attends conferences and liaises with companies for funds, which involves international travel, etc. His juniors learn how to prepare effective presentations and write papers under his guidance.
Apparently, a bank manager played golf during working hours; however, he was making friends with hospital consultants, etc., who had days off and were playing golf; he was generating business during such outings.
I take this opportunity to appeal to bloggers to give all the details of a scenario at the outset to save time and effort of advisors in generating questions.
From United Kingdom
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Dear Saswata, you have given quite a long reply, point by point. Nevertheless, instead of replying point by point, I can sum it up as follows:
a) You have swept many issues under the carpet.
b) Generalization of some of the issues, thereby dismissing it as fait accompli.
c) Your post projects an image that juniors should learn to live in a state of self-denial.
Anyway, you have given your perceptions. However, let me tell you that in hardcore performance-centric organizations, this is just not possible.
In Bangalore, there is a famous garment manufacturing company. The MD is very quality-conscious. Once he found that in the corridor, two merchandisers were joking and laughing. He told them (of course politely) that instead of wasting time in joking and laughing, they could concentrate on enhancing the quality level from 99.9 to 100%.
Now tell me, will this kind of VP survive in that garment manufacturing company?
On the other side, a famous hotel in Bangalore had a Director who used to rub everybody the wrong way. This went on for years. The attrition level was 60-70%, and management never bothered about what was happening at the ground level. When sustenance became too difficult due to competition, they realized that this Director was the problem. They removed this Director, but by then, it was too late. They lost the race, and they are losers forever!
The problem is not with the VP as such, but the management of the company has problems. Leadership is living in an ivory tower, and they do not want to take feedback from the ground level.
Lastly, you mentioned quitting this company. Anyway, I had also suggested that in my previous post without any negative undertone!
Ok...
Regards,
Dinesh V Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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a) You have swept many issues under the carpet.
b) Generalization of some of the issues, thereby dismissing it as fait accompli.
c) Your post projects an image that juniors should learn to live in a state of self-denial.
Anyway, you have given your perceptions. However, let me tell you that in hardcore performance-centric organizations, this is just not possible.
In Bangalore, there is a famous garment manufacturing company. The MD is very quality-conscious. Once he found that in the corridor, two merchandisers were joking and laughing. He told them (of course politely) that instead of wasting time in joking and laughing, they could concentrate on enhancing the quality level from 99.9 to 100%.
Now tell me, will this kind of VP survive in that garment manufacturing company?
On the other side, a famous hotel in Bangalore had a Director who used to rub everybody the wrong way. This went on for years. The attrition level was 60-70%, and management never bothered about what was happening at the ground level. When sustenance became too difficult due to competition, they realized that this Director was the problem. They removed this Director, but by then, it was too late. They lost the race, and they are losers forever!
The problem is not with the VP as such, but the management of the company has problems. Leadership is living in an ivory tower, and they do not want to take feedback from the ground level.
Lastly, you mentioned quitting this company. Anyway, I had also suggested that in my previous post without any negative undertone!
Ok...
Regards,
Dinesh V Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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Yes, I have swept a lot of things under the carpet. Well, others have already provided their inputs (again, apt and necessary), so I didn't repeat the same. The truth of the matter is that in most cases, junior staff do not have an option in such cases. What can they do if the management is not bothered? There could be many reasons for which the management turns a blind eye. Since we do not know details, we can't analyze that either.
It's not a state of self-denial. It's a question of what can you do if the management is not going to take action? If there is a grievance redressal mechanism, you can try through it. Most probably, you are going to get noted as a troublemaker, and your life will be miserable. What is the likelihood that there is some serious (and senior enough) manager on the grievance panel who will take action? To my mind, if there was a serious system in place, it would have caught the VP accordingly anyway.
Do you think the boss does not know the VP is going to the gym during office hours? Do you think the boss is so useless (remember VP's boss is the President or director) that he does not know that this person is in the hotel having a drink or in the pool at whatever hour? Surely he must be calling and speaking. Another question: who pays for the "booze"? Company? The VP? Which VP has enough spare money to drink away in the hotel all the time with his own money? These are questions that make me think there is more to the matter than we know about at this point in time. If the company is paying the drinks bill, perhaps there is a reason. Maybe there is some government official who he is with. Will the junior know of this?
The other side of the story is whether the juniors have the right perspective. Remember the post a week back saying he wants to complain to the labor commissioner that his department is working as slaves while other departments are allowed leave?
I still consider this as an interesting case study. Our Moderator has put in some more perspective, as have you with points on what happens when management ignores the problems reported by the employees.
But again, I will ask: what can the employee really do? I still say - nothing.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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It's not a state of self-denial. It's a question of what can you do if the management is not going to take action? If there is a grievance redressal mechanism, you can try through it. Most probably, you are going to get noted as a troublemaker, and your life will be miserable. What is the likelihood that there is some serious (and senior enough) manager on the grievance panel who will take action? To my mind, if there was a serious system in place, it would have caught the VP accordingly anyway.
Do you think the boss does not know the VP is going to the gym during office hours? Do you think the boss is so useless (remember VP's boss is the President or director) that he does not know that this person is in the hotel having a drink or in the pool at whatever hour? Surely he must be calling and speaking. Another question: who pays for the "booze"? Company? The VP? Which VP has enough spare money to drink away in the hotel all the time with his own money? These are questions that make me think there is more to the matter than we know about at this point in time. If the company is paying the drinks bill, perhaps there is a reason. Maybe there is some government official who he is with. Will the junior know of this?
The other side of the story is whether the juniors have the right perspective. Remember the post a week back saying he wants to complain to the labor commissioner that his department is working as slaves while other departments are allowed leave?
I still consider this as an interesting case study. Our Moderator has put in some more perspective, as have you with points on what happens when management ignores the problems reported by the employees.
But again, I will ask: what can the employee really do? I still say - nothing.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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A very interesting thread with enlightening responses. What makes everything challenging is the fact that the initial post does not reveal much information.
We do not know Ms. Saumya's designation or functional area. Most likely, it is in Marketing and Business Development activities, considering her AVP can take his team along and enjoy drinks around the hotel swimming pool. Moreover, the AVP keeps visiting the gym and spa during office hours.
We do not know yet, but what if the company is in the Personal Care business? Then maintaining a pleasing personality or visiting the gym and spa to promote or get feedback on the product would be entirely justified.
Ms. Saumya has stated that "it is boldly written in the employee area: 'WORKING HOURS 10AM-6PM, MONDAY TO SATURDAY,'" while complaining that employees have to work beyond office hours. It's well known that in the private sector, people working in offices have to overstay at times and even come on Sundays and holidays. I am not justifying it, but only pointing out the reality.
It is difficult for a junior to fully understand or appreciate the functions and duties of a senior. Quite often, we come across some junior HRs lamenting that their senior officers like GMs or VPs do not come on time to the office. Little do they know that these seniors sacrifice their personal and family life and most likely may have arrived from outstation that very morning.
A senior officer is NOT OBLIGED to tell his juniors about his activities or assignments.
I do not wish to elaborate more, but I have seen very senior officers from corporate offices or on tours spending all their time in five-star hotels. These have become business hubs with their facilities, and the ambiance is conducive to business and official discussions. Also, they have become safe and suitable venues where politicians, bureaucrats, and businessmen conduct their business.
If the functional area of the AVP also includes Corporate Relations, then he may be the perfect candidate for his job. The company whose CEO exhorts employees from 99.5 to 100% productivity would also be aware and appreciate his contributions.
Hope this provides another perspective on the entire issue without generating any undue controversy or value judgment.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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We do not know Ms. Saumya's designation or functional area. Most likely, it is in Marketing and Business Development activities, considering her AVP can take his team along and enjoy drinks around the hotel swimming pool. Moreover, the AVP keeps visiting the gym and spa during office hours.
We do not know yet, but what if the company is in the Personal Care business? Then maintaining a pleasing personality or visiting the gym and spa to promote or get feedback on the product would be entirely justified.
Ms. Saumya has stated that "it is boldly written in the employee area: 'WORKING HOURS 10AM-6PM, MONDAY TO SATURDAY,'" while complaining that employees have to work beyond office hours. It's well known that in the private sector, people working in offices have to overstay at times and even come on Sundays and holidays. I am not justifying it, but only pointing out the reality.
It is difficult for a junior to fully understand or appreciate the functions and duties of a senior. Quite often, we come across some junior HRs lamenting that their senior officers like GMs or VPs do not come on time to the office. Little do they know that these seniors sacrifice their personal and family life and most likely may have arrived from outstation that very morning.
A senior officer is NOT OBLIGED to tell his juniors about his activities or assignments.
I do not wish to elaborate more, but I have seen very senior officers from corporate offices or on tours spending all their time in five-star hotels. These have become business hubs with their facilities, and the ambiance is conducive to business and official discussions. Also, they have become safe and suitable venues where politicians, bureaucrats, and businessmen conduct their business.
If the functional area of the AVP also includes Corporate Relations, then he may be the perfect candidate for his job. The company whose CEO exhorts employees from 99.5 to 100% productivity would also be aware and appreciate his contributions.
Hope this provides another perspective on the entire issue without generating any undue controversy or value judgment.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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In view of the information posted by the original poster, I think my original comment gets reinforced:
- The company is unorganized, and the concerned VP is highly entrenched in the company. He probably is a critical person in the system, and the company is unlikely to take action against him.
- So there is no grievance cell, and if there is, then also no action is likely.
- The only option is to change to another job. In fact, it is a better option for you in the long term rather than trying to correct the system.
- The only new information that changes things is on sexual harassment of women. That is serious, and a complaint can be filed by the concerned lady employee with the new authorities under the act (just being formed, but you can get more info from the forum posts). However, again, please be aware that the concerned affected party must be ready to complain.
From India, Mumbai
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- The company is unorganized, and the concerned VP is highly entrenched in the company. He probably is a critical person in the system, and the company is unlikely to take action against him.
- So there is no grievance cell, and if there is, then also no action is likely.
- The only option is to change to another job. In fact, it is a better option for you in the long term rather than trying to correct the system.
- The only new information that changes things is on sexual harassment of women. That is serious, and a complaint can be filed by the concerned lady employee with the new authorities under the act (just being formed, but you can get more info from the forum posts). However, again, please be aware that the concerned affected party must be ready to complain.
From India, Mumbai
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While my earlier response was based on the best-case scenario, it looks like the additional inputs you mentioned place your situation in the worst-case scenario category.
Like Saswat Banerjee mentioned, the sooner you quit, the better it is for you.
I suggest not venturing or attempting to get into the 'let-me-teach-him-a-lesson' track. While there will be situations or occasions when that would be the best bet, this surely isn't one of them. I can understand the mental frame of mind you could be in—given the background you mentioned—to explore ways of approaching the Labor Court/Dept. But also remember that you need to spend a lot of time and effort to pursue that course of action—do you have that kind of time?
Based on what you mentioned about this AVP, there's a distinct chance that things could get nasty when he gets to know someone has complained to the Labor Dept—are you ready for such consequences (which depend a lot on the family support the individual has)?
One risk you always stand as long as you stay in such multi-level marketing companies is the serious threat or probability of closure—given the general track record of such companies. And the infidelity angle you mentioned only makes it all the more serious.
Forget about the AVP—he will cook his own roost. Just look after yourself for now.
All the best.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Like Saswat Banerjee mentioned, the sooner you quit, the better it is for you.
I suggest not venturing or attempting to get into the 'let-me-teach-him-a-lesson' track. While there will be situations or occasions when that would be the best bet, this surely isn't one of them. I can understand the mental frame of mind you could be in—given the background you mentioned—to explore ways of approaching the Labor Court/Dept. But also remember that you need to spend a lot of time and effort to pursue that course of action—do you have that kind of time?
Based on what you mentioned about this AVP, there's a distinct chance that things could get nasty when he gets to know someone has complained to the Labor Dept—are you ready for such consequences (which depend a lot on the family support the individual has)?
One risk you always stand as long as you stay in such multi-level marketing companies is the serious threat or probability of closure—given the general track record of such companies. And the infidelity angle you mentioned only makes it all the more serious.
Forget about the AVP—he will cook his own roost. Just look after yourself for now.
All the best.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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