CHR
Founder Cite.co
Octavious
Hr Manager
Skhadir
Strategic Business Management Includes Revenue
Ashoknegidi
Training Operations - Csr
Ukm
Top Management
Dushyant Shah
Finance & Commercial
Tajsateesh
Recruitment/talent Acquisition, Career Counselling
Raj Kumar Hansdah
Shrm, Od, Hrd, Pms
Harsh Shukla
Ceo And Md Of 3 Uk Based Mnc's
Loginmiracle
Consultant & G.m.
Vivian Chandrashekar
Aast. Gen. Manager-hr
Dsaurav
Corporate Training, Executive Coaching, Outbound
Sreeniknr
Administration Manager
Priyan888
Labour Law
+8 Others

#Anonymous

Dear All,
I would like to get your opinion regarding our one female staff who was illegally pregnant (on her single status)and had committed induced abortion. I want to know legally what will be the ground to be able to terminate her as the management had decided to stop her work relationship with our company. Please be advised that we are based in UAE,wherein there is a strict stipulated rules that a female cant get pregnant in Dubai without legitimate marriage contract but I cant find the exact article to be the basis of her termination.
13th February 2013 From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Dear Pinky,
You go ahead with termination policy you can terminate the people with out showing any reason but you should pay the notice period to her. and do not discuss with anybody in your office make it smoothly.
Or else you can ask her alone to resign the job by showing the same reason i hope she will co-ordinate with make you have to show her FNF benefits also.
13th February 2013 From India, Hyderabad
Please don't be harsh on her. She committed a SIN. Let her feel and realize for her mistake. You can ask her to give it in return stating that, she will not repeat the same. If found guilty in future, she will be liable for prosecution or handed over to the local police.
Do you think DUBAI IS A CITY OF SAINTS, WHO NEVER COMMITTED CRIMES/SINS/MISTAKES?. Why bachelors love to work in DUBAI and considered it as HEAVEN wherein they hate to work in SAUDI ARABIA or KUWAIT or OMAN?
With profound regards
13th February 2013 From India, Chennai
Dear Pinky
It is a most unfortunate incident.
To terminate her services is something that the "feminist", "women's lib" and people in developed democratic countries would find highly objectionable.
Even undergoing abortion is considered evil; as it amounts to killing an unborn baby for none of its fault.
Moreover, it is debatable whether un-wed mothers should be looked down upon or carry a stigma; in a world where divorce has become so common; and live-in relationship has become legal.
Having said that; I understand your predicament.
If it is the Law of the Land, then it has to be complied with.
Where does this law exist? Find out the relevant references of the Act or statute.
Without quoting the exact clause/wordings, you can refer to it in the Termination letter.
But the most advisable line of action would be to counsel and convince her to submit her resignation.
Warm regards.
13th February 2013 From India, Delhi
Dear Pinky,
What she has done is wrong, but, we are no one to punish her. Further, if it is not hampering your company and her work, this should not be exposed and she should be allowed to work. In this way, she may realise. As a friend you can make her understand that what she is doing is not correct and she should not repeat in future. Sometimes, people get carried away, when no one is there to make them understand
Regards,
Grettapl
14th February 2013 From India, Mumbai
#Anonymous
Dear All,

I appreciate all your comments. I also believe in LIFE and RESPECT. And that was all the full reason that I am continuing my passion to be at the Human Resources field. It is always good to know and weigh on things as per my same co-professionals points of view. I was also a Social Worker by profession back in my country and I do understand most of the plight of Women all over the world. I believe that she is a victim of the situation and if given a chance will never choose to be on the same situation again. Not to worry for each and everyone who had given their valuable opinions, Her case will be confidential as always (being a part of our Ethics as HR professionals), and in some cases our decision varies as per the norm of the country and in that manner as well we have not any right to judge what their norms and culture are but also to fully understand diversity and respect others culture as well.

What is more important is that, wherever we are irregardless of the environment, cultural differences and beliefs, our decision should always be guided by the Principles of life.

With her case, considering the law of the country and the company's point of view, I recommended to the management, that I will counsel discuss with her the actual situation with transparency. Termination shall be out of the question, and will let her leave the company with a dignity on and will let her find another job and consider her case close. I proposed also to the management to terminate instead my co-HOD who had caused the same.

More power to Cite.HR and a sincere appreciation to all your comments and advise.
14th February 2013 From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Can anyone explain why she needs to be terminated? She had a relation with someone which resulted in her getting pregnant due to unprotected sex or maybe due to coercion. Rape law can be applicable in this case if it is someone from within your office. Instead of terminating her and making a big hue and cry as a HR manager you should be sensitive to this issue to avoid illegal termination of someone\'s job. Where in your company\'s rule book is it written that an employee can be terminated for having sex and getting pregnant. The Constitution of India has no clear guidelines on the same either and if that has nothing to tell you what to do, you better not apply your brains on this.
14th February 2013 From India, Mumbai
Dear Pinky, Though I can suggest some ways, ethically, consciously I am not inclined to offer any as this may be inhuman, a gender bias. Sorry. kumar.s.
14th February 2013 From India, Bangalore
My Dear Anonymous,

First of all there is no such term as "Illegally Pregnant" - if you try to define it you will see what i mean.

If a child was born due to rape, the act of rape was illegal and the child's status is illegitimate. But being pregnant itself is not illegal.

The law actually states the you cannot bear a child out of wedlock, but even if we accept your interpretation; then you must accept that this is a moral law and not a criminal law.

Secondly, a woman will never have the intention of getting pregnant, knowing that the law will be broken, clearly a mistake has occurred. The mistake has been corrected by way of abortion. Now the question arises was the abortion illegal?

Third, there is no law - civil or criminal - that states that a woman should lose her job in this situation. Therefore, where does the company's or managements morality lie? Is this woman in breach of company rules and regulations? I suspect not.

I offer no opinion as to the action you should take, i do ask you, however, to question yourself and the motives of management ...

Regards

Harsh
14th February 2013 From United Kingdom, Barrow
Am Surprised to see all the comments, It's her personal life and we have no rights to inter-fear in personal life of Individual and , if at all you need to terminate the services of Individual you do not need any reason's as such.
issue a simple letter of termination as per the rules and policies of the company.
14th February 2013 From India, Mumbai
Dear All,
I agreed with Mr. Dharmesh Comments if she got illegal pregnancy who he is not working in the same organization please do not terminate her. if it is spread the organization please ask her permission to do exit formalities. if she got pregnancy with co-employee or same organization employee please terminate both of them .
14th February 2013 From India, Hyderabad
Hello Pinky,
Your lines "Termination shall be out of the question, and will let her leave the company with a dignity on and will let her find another job and consider her case close. I proposed also to the management to terminate instead my co-HOD who had caused the same" are indeed VERY profound & apply to this situation quite well.
It's not an issue of 'whether it's a consensual act or not'--the issue is one of Equal liability & responsibility for the consequence(s) thereof.
And more so when the male in question happens to be in the same organization & @ a higher position/level.
Rgds,
TS
14th February 2013 From India, Hyderabad
It is sad that we take saintly position only in case of a woman. I wish to know, did she get pregnant on her own or did she have a male partner? What action is the organization contemplating against that individual? Second aspect to the whole episode is, Was it consensual sex or coerced ? To punish a woman without going through the facts is preposterous
Munshi
14th February 2013 From India, Delhi
PAST IS PAST now and pls let her continue to offer her services. It was a mistake comitted under the influence of DEVIL which is most common in youngsters. Let her start a new life and i am sure she will never repeat such mistake in future. She will realize what takes a woman to become a mother. I feel she is still immature personality.
The ruler of DUBAI had setup both A BAR & MOSQUE. Its upto the individuals to chose. Humans are born to make mistakes but she alone cannot be taken for long ride as one needs two hands to clap. What about her campanion. Why his company is not taking similar action against him because he is equally involved in that incident. Why one law for females and another law for male.
We must learn to FORGIVE and support others to RECTIFY THEIR OWN MISTAKES.
With profound regards
14th February 2013 From India, Chennai
#Anonymous
Law of the land applies. Each country has a different law. Thank God it happened in Saudi. Just imagine if it would have happened in Saudi, she would have been stoned to death. The HR person who brought this up has responded with lot of sensitivity towards the dignity of the lady in question. Really appreciate that
14th February 2013 From Indonesia, Jakarta
#Anonymous
Sorry for a typo error in the previous post. I meant thank God that it happened in UAE, where the law of the land stipulates that the person cannot be employed when she gets pregnant out of wedlock. If only it would have happened in Saudi Arabia, she would have been stoned to death.
Sitting in India, we cannot expect our laws to be applied in other countries. UAE has its own law and if a person accepts a job there, it is implied that the person agrees to abide by the law. Any violation of the law would attract appropriate punishment. And Pinky has been sensitive enough to state that she is endeavouring to make the exit smooth and maintain the dignity of the lady concerned, which itself could be a challenge. Really appreciate her for that.
14th February 2013 From Indonesia, Jakarta
actually there is no provision for termination on such pregnancy an abortion.she has punished her self by doing abortion and now doing her job..A lady must be protected from such coercive steps of the management.it is her decision leave the job on her moral calls.if we know the person who has used her should be prosecuted.
satish Verma, Nashik
15th February 2013 From India, Nasik
Hi, I was in Doha as Manager - HR. You should be care full when you make such comment. It is not India to talk any thing and get away from it. Don't unnecessarily put your noose into it. There is a law of land which your owner is aware. It is highly sensitive. Better to bury rather then go public. Women is always victim of circumstances, and don't be harsh with your decision. In Dubai these may be happening without much light. As HR head, ask your Owner to deal with utmost care and lightly.
Bye
15th February 2013 From India, Bangalore
I dont know the term "illegal pregnancy". As per UAE law abortion not permitted. Police will take action and the lady will definitely get a permanent entry restriction in UAE (Especially if she is unmarried and found pregnant).
15th February 2013 From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
dear mr Pinky,
It all depends on your internal rules, standing orders and applicable laws to employees in saudi. In India, atleast for such a conduct, we cannot punish an employee since it has got nothing to do with her employment. However, if it is considered a crime in saudi, and if indulging in any crime is covered in the service rules or appointment letter applicable to her, then you can follow the course of action laid down as per those rules, if it warrants an enquiry, then same should be done, if it calls for immediate dismissal, then it can be resorted to, not otherwise.
15th February 2013 From India, Pune
Though this should be encouraged. This will weaken the discipline of our companies. This is a stigma on our working culture as well as on the society. No religion allows this. However, the work of the company has not suffered but concerned staff member/s should be counselled and strict warning should be issued to avoid such cases in future.
15th February 2013 From India, Patiala
Which country she belongs to? First thing is that she should come out of middle east safely. Her safety is first. A person cannot be terminated in India just because of pregnancy in India - therefore if yours is an Indian Company and she has been deputed there then you cannot terminate. What she has done may be morally incorrect but may have happened in a weak moment or whatever - only she can tell the circumstances - better we do not judge.
If there is a risk to her life or if she is likely to be arrested if your legally terminate her on account of getting pregnant - then pl speak to her and tell her about the risk involved and ask her to resign and leave the middle-east before the bigots make an issue out of this.
Gayatri
15th February 2013 From India, Chandigarh
Dear Pinky,
If it comes to worse " it is better that she should be allowed to resign, get her dues settled coolly and see that she lands in India safely with clear documents" . Poor girl deserves all sympathy and support at this unfortunate, precarious situation she is placed. Just for my information - wouldn't that the hospital where the abortion was done face legal obligations ? if so how she can escape from this danger ?
kumar.s.
15th February 2013 From India, Bangalore
Dear Pinky,

Though the issue appears to be closed thequestion you raised remains.

Thanks for posting and creating an aweness of such a situation

As for as Indian Labour Laws and Govt Rules for maternity benefits and childcare etc are concerned.it is all about whether the female employee requires rest,leave and support for cnfinement and delivery,and care for the child.The conception,whether it is legal or illegal is beyond the question.It is individual's right.She might have become pregnant by fertility treatment, by a consented sex without marriage,or rape.The fact of carrying a child entitles her for the

maternity benefits.

As for ethics,country spefic rules,and company'spolicies are concerned,

(i)It should be ensured whether the country's rules regarding moral behaviour/crimes interferes with individuals contract of employment?

(ii)Whether the employer should take cognisance of such happenings?When it is not so, the employer is acting beyond his powers.

(iii)Unless the facts are brought on record by recording evidences, such facts are difficult to take action.

(iv)In these days of single mothers,having a child without wedlock if your company continues with old morals the company will end in winding up.

We dont recommend immorality,but changes in work place should be taken note by company.----Priyan
15th February 2013 From India, Mumbai
I am agreed with Mr Dharmesh Doshi, if you want to terminate no need to give any reasons. But you should not refer this reason in termination letter. She having her personal life. Pl check your company rules and ploicy, mostly you would not find any such rules and/or policy in your company management frem work. Still you want to take termination action call her and discusse mater with her in person and try to agree her for submitting her resignation and reslove the issue.
Dushyant Shah
15th February 2013 From India, Pune
Dear All,
Some typographical mistakes in my post and some additions.
Pls read as: The issue has created awareness of such situation which calls for sympathetic approach.
Read as'Country specific rules'-where it appears.
If your company operates in so many countries the company cannot function as moral police
for the country.With changes happening in every field,and changes in cultures/morals of every country
an indidual's contribution to the company should be the priority in deciding the continuance/dismissal of an employee.
Thanks.
Priyan
15th February 2013 From India, Mumbai
#Anonymous
Issue is not about acting as moral police of the country. But the law of the land has to be complied with. In UAE, getting pregnant out of wedlock is a crime and punishable offence. Once a person has committed a crime as per the law of the land, the company has to immediately act. If not the company could be in danger of losing its licence to function. Appreciate the management that they are only removing the lady concerned and not intmating the law enforcers. If they do, she will be in jail and then after serving the sentence, she will be deported with a permanent bar to enter UAE. This literally means, she cannot get Visa for most countries and may not get a job abroad. They are not ruining her career. They are in fact getting her to leave, so that she could build her life elsewhere. Neither are they informing the Law enforcing agencies. We need to appreciate that. And also the way Pinky is handling by being very senisitive to the human side of the lady concerned also needs to be appreciated.

Most of us come from democratic countries like India, USA, European countries. But, one thing we have to realise is that major parts of the world are not democratic. Hence, they will not have such broad democratic principles of governance.

Comparing laws of democratic countries and asking that it be applied in non democratic country is impractical and not realistic.
15th February 2013 From Nigeria
I appreciate the contents of the post by Anonymous. I agree how difficult it would be to escape from the clutches of local laws especially in Muslim (gulf) countries where it's different than that of India. I also appreciate their management in helping her avert imminent ignominy. God save her & the employer.
kumar.s.
16th February 2013 From India, Bangalore
Dear all,
You all have separate comments on this issue, and that reflects each one perspective on this issue. I appreciate all. Whether it's India or Dubai, here HR can not show its rules, regulation, laws. It should be tackle with tender care, whenever she did abortion that means, she has some fear regarding job losing or society living, so please take care her and this is her high time . Being a HR person deal with her softly. advice her not to repeat this thing, be aware about social living. Don't ask for resignation.( Exceptional only if that female employee nature or character is different/ not normal and indifferent/stoic with your support.
16th February 2013 From India, Kolkata
If you think that your hotel and this staff memebr will face problem, which may be right, then you should not have flared this issue, instead you should have simply discussed this issue one to one with this staff memebr and asked her to resign. Please do not terminate her, but ask her to resign, so that she can look out for another job, leaving her past behind.
16th February 2013 From India, Mumbai
Dear Whoever you are.

Congrats for the most innovative question till now, for the year 2013.

What gave you the idea that being pregnant means she aint single. Have you heard about surrogacy?

How did you come to the conclusion that she became pregnant in UAE ?

She might have been pregnant when out of UAE, and then came back to UAE. There is also possibility that she was drugged and raped, by some pervert and hence she that do take such steps.

In strict terms, being single means being not married, but being single no where states any thing about being mother or not being mother ( there is difference to both). If we go in reverse style, every body who is married and not having a child, should be single, right, well it isnt so.......

I have been seeing lot of members herein speaking about religion and morals etc etc. I would like to ask such members who made them caretakers of society and watchdogs of morals.

CiteHR was started with the intention of creating strong and common platform for professionals, for professional, educated, wise, and learned HR professionals could come and share experiences and knowledge.

But some members have decided to self appoint themselves as messiah of religion, moral and conduct, and I believe will turn this citeHR into some Khap panchayat.

Moderators are hereby requested to please take notice of the same and act accordingly.

People who want to talk about religion, or talk about religion under cloak of some professional issues, then please do that in some other forum and not in CITEHR.

Members of citeHR are interested in getting influenced by knowledge and nothing else.

Regards

Octavious
17th February 2013 From India, Mumbai
Dear friends,
I feel it's high time that all should restrict our posts only giving suggestions to the pertinent query. Let us not give trouble to the queriest by touching upon controversial matters about morality, religion etc which are purely personal, either for or against and it's not HR profile.
kumar.s.
17th February 2013 From India, Bangalore
If you have documentary evidence of Induced abortion then you can serve notice to her asking her why she will not be terminate from employment ?
18th February 2013
Dear Mr. Octavious,

I am not sure, what made you to post such statements just because you are a SUPER MODERATOR? Your role is to LISTEN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN and share your views with a POSITIVE ATTITUDE. This is a OPEN FORUM and everyone has right to post their queries, share views/opinions, unless it doesn't hurt any individual nor his/her living style. Henceforth, you have "NO RIGHT" to post such statement.

Please be informed that, as for as MUSLIMS are concerned, "RELIGION PLAYS A IMPORTANT ROLE IN OUR PROFESSIONAL AND PERSONAL LIVES". Without RELIGION we MUSLIMS ARE NOTHING. Besides Muslims, there are also Professionals for whom "RELIGION IS EVERYTHING" as they don't care about this TEMPORARY WORLD.

All those with DON'T CARE ATTITUDE nor associated their lives with their RELIGION, they are TRULY MISGUIDED and LANDED THEMSELVES INTO TROUBLES.

RELIGION has got a lot more to do with our lives. RELIGION had guided us to FOLLOW RULES & REGULATIONS for a BETTER LIFE on EARTH AND AFTER DEATH(AAQIRATH). GULF COUNTRIES are very strict about RULES ASSOCIATED WITH RELIGIOUS LIFE STYLE. I have got tons of examples to give you as how "RELIGION CAN HELP US TO LIVE A BETTER LIFE". For example, as per SHARIAH LAW, a RAPIST must be either stone to death or Hanged till death. If this law would have been enforced in INDIA, Women would have been safe to an extent and CRIME could have been controlled.

You must understand why "ILLEGAL SEX is PROHIBITED IN ISLAM & GCC". Even others prohibit the same but who is exploited it. I don't want to write more about WESTERN CULTURE. For selfish reasons, for centuries women are exploited by MEN. The way WOMEN are used for PRODUCT PROMOTION/MARKETING ACTIVITIES. is really pathetic. Is this the way we treat a WOMAN who is also suppose to be our MOTHER, SISTER, WIFE, AUNTS.....

We need to change our thinking pattern and support the TRUTH.

With profound regards.


18th February 2013 From India, Chennai
Dear Skhadir.
Thanks a lot, after a very long time I had a great laugh and this is all because of your hilarious unwarranted reactive and illogical post above.
I bet your brain feels as good as new, seeing that you've never used it, never the less, keep talking someday you'll say something intelligent.
I don't think you are a person with low intelligence, but then what's MY opinion against thousands of others who have seen your unwarranted illogical violent reaction , on a harmless but straight forward opinion of mine, made with no intention to hurt any person/persons/public at large in any manner.
And please pardon me for generating a feeling in you that I am someone who gives a damn about your opinion or suggestion.
I am sorry , I know I'm talking like an idiot. I have to, otherwise you wouldn't understand me.
If you donít mind can I ignore you again, I am bit busy.
Regards
Octavious
23rd February 2013 From India, Mumbai
Great you had a good time post reading. I may sound like an IDIOT or FOOL or IMMATURE PERSONALITY but, my policy says, "DON'T UNDERESTIMATE ANYONE IN THIS WORLD NOR YOURSELF".
Through ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES our Prophet (PBUH) thought the entire MANKIND "HOW TO LIVE A PEACEFULLY, DISCIPLINED, HAPPY & SUCCESSFUL LIFE(on earth & post death)". There is lot more to share with you because i strong feel, you need to gather more information about ISLAM. Only then you will understand the importance of RELIGION IN ONCE LIFE.
Aggressively i am promoting my services to all those individuals who wants to learn "HOW TO CONTROL THEIR ANGER". Infact, i had tested on myself whatever i am teaching to individuals. This had helped many to control their ATTITUDE, BEHAVIOUR, RESPOND LOGICALLY INSTEAD OF REACTING OR BURSTING OUT and lot more.
Have a wonderful life and please do spend time to understand :THE ROLE OF RELIGION IN OUR LIFE"
With profound regards

26th February 2013 From India, Chennai
I think this is now getting personal - its best to close the thread and leave it at that. Octavious, it's best to not get agitated over such threads - while I don't want to encourage political or religious discussions - this particular thread seemed to be relevant from an HR perspective. For many, as Khadir pointed out, religion is a major part of how they live - we need to respect that and let them be if we fail to understand their reasons for faith. However, it would've been better if this discussion had moved more towards the business perspective rather than the religious perspective.
Please also note that Senior Member / Super Moderator / Administrator tags do not mean any kind of superiority in this forum - it simply means the users have volunteered to take up some tasks to maintain the forum or are marked for special contributions. All of us here are equal and have an equal opportunity to voice our opinions.
Regards,
Sid [CHR]
26th February 2013 From India, Gurgaon
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