CHR
Founder Cite.co
Sanjeev.Himachali
Hr & Od Consultant
Manish2678
Hr Executive
Faizal.haque
Hr Professional
Ra.services
Recruitment Consultants, Resume Writers,
Ajithaa
Mba Hr
Sangjulie
Manager - Hr
Sundarjayram
Hr Professional
R.vijey
Head Hr
Meeni
Asst Manager-hr
Randi
Hr Manager
GOWTAMTULUGU
Consultant
Kiran_p
Employee
Pallc
Service
Yamz123
Student
Bhooooot
Entrepreneur - B2b Automated Sales Management
Prachisri
Hr Consultant
Sunilvs27
Hr Manager

Thread Started by #Sanjeev.Himachali

Who is HR Personnel or who is to be considered as HR Professional or HR Personnel?

To be qualified as a HR Professional one should have either of the following:

1) Academic Qualification that is MBA or PG Diploma in HR or MSW or certificate course in HR

2) Should be a Certified HR Professional from SHRM or CIPD or other related Institutes

3) Should be a Qualified Trainer or Human Behavior Specialist

4) Should be working in HR Department

However, I don’t consider following people as HR Professionals:

1) Graduates, working in Administrative Department of the Company, there by taking care of Housekeeping, Security, Guest Hospitality or Maintaining the Travel Desk

2) Graduates, working as Recruiters. Searching Jobs on Job Portals and coordinating interviews with Clients is not considered as a HR Job, because such recruiters are not in a position to take functional interviews or negotiate salaries. They play hardly any role in the selection or rejection of the candidate. They are just coordinators and work on the guidelines of their Clients.

3) Practicing lawyers are also not considered as HR Professionals.

Looking forward to your comments and feedback

Regards

Regards

Sanjeev Sharma

(Blog: http://sanjeevhimachali.blogspot.com/)

Or ( <link outdated-removed> )
19th February 2007 From India, Mumbai
Hi Sanjeev,
In my opinion human resource management is a much wider term than just setting up company policies or document templates or figuring out compensation. I think it is everything to do with the management of people, their behavior and motivation towards work - to help them improve in areas related to work and personal development. Professionals who are responsible for organizing everything related to that are HR professionals.
Regards,
CHR
19th February 2007 From India, Gurgaon
Seriously Sanjeev I just can not see any idea in this overall and not at all in connection with who can give their input on CiteHR.
Some of the people that have helped me with templates on this site is often graduates, recruiters (that you do not think are HR) etc.
So please lets make space for everybody here on CiteHR instead of starting to discuss who is the "real" HR and who is not.
Kind regards,
Randi
19th February 2007 From India, Delhi
Randi...thanks for the inputs. I am not against anybody but just trying to Distinguish. I think CiteHR should remain as CiteHR and should not become CiteManagement.

That will actually defeat the purpose.

Most often...those who don't even know the ABC of HR....they ask very ridicules queries...people don't know how to calculate attrition; they don't know the difference between KRA's and KPA's; they don't know how to calculate leaves...with all these...people are not able to grow. We are at the same level from where we have begun. Different people ask the same question in a different manner on different days.

We need to graduate to the next level such as

Executive Coaching;

Succession Planning;

Organization Development;

Aligning HR with Business;

HR Metrics

Talent Management,

Career Development,

Performance Management etc.

Here, I have seen people who don't know the difference between Performance Management and Performance Appraisal; between Talent Acquisition and Talent Management.

Anyways, thanks for the inputs.

Regards

Sanjeev Sharma
19th February 2007 From India, Mumbai
Hi Sanjeev

And maybe I will be one of the ridicules people one day and maybe you will be one of them another day!

Just because we work in the kind of HR that you define as "real" HR, we do not know everything. What I like about CiteHR is that you can ask stupid questions (or at least what other people might think is stupid) and you can decide not to read the questions that you think is stupid but that other people might want to know more about.

I am working as HR manager, but because I do not have an Indian background there is a lot of the legal aspects that I do not know about, and therefore I will often sound ridicules (and I don't know the difference between KRA's and KPA's). Does that mean that I should not be allowed to use CiteHR?

CiteHR will always be on multiple levels - new people will join and some questions will be asked over and over again, but you have the choice of just reading the questions that you believe are interesting and answering the same (and please leave the rest alone).

Remember what you think is ridicules might be what I think is interesting and just the other way around.

Kind regards,

Randi
19th February 2007 From India, Delhi
And by the way Sanjeev please do start a discussion on one of these issues. I believe we are a lot of people on CiteHR that would love to hear about and discuss on these subjects - at least I am very interested.
Kind regards,
Randi
19th February 2007 From India, Delhi
Randi...I think you have not read the posting. I have mentioned that either one should be Qualified to work as a HR Professional or he/she is working in HR Department. Graduates...working as Recruiters with Recruitment Consultancies should not be considered as HR Professionals.
Those who atleast have subjective or functional knowledge about HR can be trained.
That is my perception.
Regards
Sanjeev Sharma
19th February 2007 From India, Mumbai
Dear Sanjeev

I have for sure read you comment and I will try once and for all to end this (at least from my side):

My opinion is:

1.that we that work in HR or have the qualification can also ask stupid questions. This "ability" is not only confined to graduates etc.

2. And that there need to be room for anybody that have an interest in HR. I am just happy that so many graduates and recruiters etc. are so interested that they are spending a lot of time on CiteHR sharing with everybody else

Overall (and this we will properly never agree upon) there should be room for all kind of people on CiteHR: the once working with HR, the once not working with what you define as "real" HR and the once just interested. Again we all have the right to read the discussion we find interesting and ignoring the rest.

I know you properly don't agree but this is the way CiteHR works. There is no background check when you sign up, there is no clause stating that you need to be in "real" HR. So there is no reason to talk hard to graduates that you believe ask stupid questions - just learn to ignore and participate in the discussions that you believe are on your "level".

I will for sure "ignore" this issue for now - but I am looking forward to some of your discussions on Performance management etc.

Kind regards,

Randi
19th February 2007 From India, Delhi
Hi to everyone,
Let's calm down here - I myself am not an HR graduate as a matter of fact not even a management graduate. CiteHR is meant for anyone who wants to learn anything about HR or anything related to it. It's possible that many questions are repeated - perhaps a suggestion to search the site first can be added to the posting page.
Like suggested on this thread - read the things which you find interesting - ignore the rest. If you find some topic interesting - start a thread on that.
Regards,
CHR
19th February 2007 From India, Gurgaon
hi,
one day everybody is a learner not professional... after getting exp. and knowledge one day he becomes a professional so dont say that this is a cite of professionals, it is a cite of all hr people who still in a way or in a beginning of their career.. we all are here to help them out.. he is asking stupids questions becuz he doesn't know.. once he knows it he become professional in his field so here this is u senior people to tell him the right way..dont u think so.
regards
manish
19th February 2007 From India, Delhi
Hello Sanjeev,

Im Yamini, doing MBA from IMT Ghaziabad so according to ur point of view I should not ask the questions if they are stupid or ridicules but how do i come to knw that the questions I am asking is stupid or ridicules coz if I dont knw that thing then offcourse that questions is important for me.I think CityHR is the "collage", "U" professionals are the teachers and we are the "students". If teachers will says students, not to ask stupid questions then what? Like me there are so many who wants to knw more abt HR and to learn. It helps atleast me to knw HR more because HR is the subject where theory really matters.

Yes ur right that "Most often...those who don't even know the ABC of HR....they ask very ridicules queries" but sanjeev its obvice that people who don't knw ABC of HR they will definatly ask stupid questions to understand HR, HR department, and its facilities otherwise why HR will be in Organisations. "HR is to help people and for people", I think.

CityHR is not only for HR professionals or for HR people but according to me its for every1 who is in HR or not in HR coz now a days we all are directly or indirectly connected to HR otherwise why would we have HR departments in every big Organizations.

I am really sorry if i hurt u with any of my views and plz let me knw :)

how to calculate attrition?

Executive Coaching;

Succession Planning;

Organization Development;

Aligning HR with Business;

HR Metrics

Talent Management,

Career Development,

Performance Management etc.

it will really help me :D

Thanks and regards,

Yamini Sharma :oops:
20th February 2007
Hello Randi,
Its really nice that you answered very well. Im Yamini doing MBA from IMT Ghaziabad. Can u tell me the types of PF ? I went to an interviwe and they asked me this. Plz let me knw? :D and now stop this argument.
Thanks and regards,
Yamini Sharma
20th February 2007
Hi all,

On what context Sanjeev started this thread, i dont know. and i have seen the responses from others which is a bit far forward also. we are not looking into what sanjeev said - there is some element of truth and food for thought in his argument. whether this site is to be reserved for professionals, who is professional, etc is a different matter. but the crux of the point is that there should be something different between a professional and a non-professional.

You can plead your own case in any court of law as per indian judical system - no need for any qualification and personally i know several NGO leaders who make professional lawyers count stars in the court room. but these guys are not permitted to enrol as a lawyer till they have a degree.

Every profession has its own complexities and skills which should be learned and practiced to become proficient in that one. That is why it is called a profession and not every job is called a profession.

i too have seen people asking questions what is Performance appraisal and performance management which anyone can understand by just putting a search in any search engine.

when we are participating in a science website or maths website we are expected to know the basics of maths and science. no one trying to do b sc maths would be asking a question what 2+22?
20th February 2007 From Oman, Muscat
Dear All (Randi, Yamini, Manish et al)
Do we need to be a qualified Lawyer to Practice Law? The Answer is Yes.
Do we need to be a qualified Doctor to Practice Medicine? The Answer is Yes.
Do we need to be a qualified CA to work as Chartered Accountant? The Answer is Yes.
You should know how to act to work as an Actor. You should know how to bat or ball to be a cricketer. Not everyone can be a model, they also have parameters.
Why is that anybody or everybody can be in HR? It is only in Politics that we don't need any background or education. So, does that mean that HR and Politics are same?
Think about it.
Regards
Sanjeev Sharma
20th February 2007 From India, Mumbai
Hi All,
It was really very interesting to read all your comments.
Just to add,i feel that terms like-
Executive Coaching;
Succession Planning;
Organization Development;
Aligning HR with Business;
HR Metrics
Talent Management,
Career Development,
Performance Management etc.
can me studied and a person can read an gain knowledge,but to implement these ideas is a mixture of art,common sense and experience.
So please can we stop the argument and let everyone have the knowledge and exposure towards HR activities.
Success will depend on how the person implement this information in his/her professional life.
Regards
Meenakshi
20th February 2007 From India, New Delhi
Hi,

What you said is absolutely true.

To work in Accounts Dept., one should have graduation in Commerce.

To work in lab one needs Science graduation.

However, unfortunately, no such qualification required to work as HR professional. Though we have n number of PG courses, Diploma courses, none provide required inputs. I have a colleague who has done M.Com., coins phrases and words like Competency needs, etc., that he might have listened somewhere or read in books.

On the other side, it is much debatable - whether HR itself is a specific subject/department.

As we study, there are HRM and HRD. HRD speaks about what you are saying. Where as HRM (Human Resources Management) speaks about what you are saying + HR Management which consists selection, PF, ESI, compensation .... etc.

In a way, what you said is right. There are very few - rather - we can count real HR specialists in India like famous Prof TV Rao, Udai Pareek, etc, and some such professionals.

However, many companies do not go for such higher HR side and very few companies like Siemens and all go for Assessment Centres and Career Development.. aligning HR ..so .. on where they have plenty of money, time, and vision.

It is recent fashion where name boards of Personnel are changed with HR and expectations are also getting changed.

So, in a gist, what you said is right. But, such professionals or companies are rather countable and what industry really need now is Personnel or HRM professionals rather pure HRD professionals.


20th February 2007 From India, Bhubaneswar
Dear Sanjeev,
You have raised two issues in this thread.
Issue 1:. Who is an HR Professional?
You contend that to be an HR professional one needs to have a businees/HR degree/certificate and/or a professional qualification from CIPD/SHRM and working in the area of Human resource management/development.
I endorse your views to a great extent.
Issue 2:.Whether this site is to be reserved for HR professionals?
I feel that let citeHR be a forum for all. The "Professionals", the "not so professionals" and for everyone "interested in HR".
The beast way forward is as Randy, Kumarpvss and citehr have expressed; read the things which you find interesting - ignore the rest. If you find some topic interesting - start a thread on that.
Request all keep the ball rolling. Citehr is a great place to be for the "Professionals", the "not so professionals" and for everyone "interested in HR".
Kind regards,
Faizal Haque
20th February 2007 From India, Vadodara
Randi, Manish and Naik
If I need to explain KRA’s and KPA’s in few lines then
KRA or Key Result Areas is what is expected from an employee. Example for a recruiter, sourcing can be one of the KRA.
KPA or Key Performance Area is how to calculate the performance of an Employee. Like in the above mentioned case, time it took to close an open position and amount spend or saved in closing that position will be considered as One Such KPA.
One of the KRA of a trainer can be to Train an employee but it will be the effectiveness of that training which will be considered as his KPA.
One of the KRA for Employee Relations Team is to Interact with Employees, motivate them and solve their queries but how that affects the Attrition Rate that is KPA.
I hope I have given fair enough idea as what is a difference between KRA and KPA.
We can discuss about it...in detail on some other day at some other place.
Regards
Sanjeev Sharma
20th February 2007 From India, Mumbai
Dear Member
HR yardstick is qualification of MBA (HR), MHRM and other associated degrees.
Personnel who are associated with HR function only can be recognised as
administrative staff of P&A division of organisations.
The strategicies and other hardcore functions and thier implementations
in the organisations only be possble with accured knowledge in the studices.
Individulas who have the experience in the returns may fulfill partial requirement of the HR only. Hence it is justified that yardstick is required to for identity
regards
yandamuri
20th February 2007 From India, Visakhapatnam
Hi to all,
I think what ever remarks have been made till now in this thread faisal has pointed out the right thing.
-A forum of knowledge should nt be reserved for anybody.
But that why is it so easy to get into HR than any other field without an appropriate qualification. and what are the necesary steps that can be taken in this regard.??
lets utilize this thread to answer this question
regards
saher
20th February 2007 From India
Hi Saher
I agree with you. Now a days even graduate is having the designation of AM - HR though that person really doesn't know the ABCD of real HR. Just handing basic stuff like Induction and joining formalities makes him/ her feel that he is doing HR work though I really don't think that comes in HR as to get into HR you need to uderstand the people, their behaviour and their needs etc.
Regards
Sujata
21st February 2007 From India, Faridabad
Dear Sujata and Saher,
One possible way forward is certification for HR professional on the lines of CIPD, UK which provides several routes and levels for Certification of HR Professionals.
However, in India there no such certification body/institution. It's time the industry/ HR/business professionals in India come together and think about it.
Regards,
Faizal Haque
21st February 2007 From India, Vadodara
Hi Sanjeev,

What you said is having some sense. Of course some are asking questions for which they can get the answers by themselves. But the thing here that has to be focused more is that you are asking to restrict this forum especially for HR professionals only. I am a student now. I am pursuing MBA. If there is no access to me into this forum how can i learn and what's the need to run this forum, if all the people in this forum are those who know everything. Certainly ther's no need to run these CITEHR forum if this is only for those who know everything. No need of postings and all that. Its better to stop this forum. Is recruitment not an activity of HR. Does it not belong to HR?

Ofcourse consultancies are recruting Degree qualified people as recruiters. So then what. As somebody is saying, you just don't respond to those questions which you feel are ridiculous. There's no compulsion here. Whoever wants to answer they will answer, You don't answer.

Don't bring the differences unnecessarily without an appropriate reason. All will not be alike or intelligent or know everything.

So, this is useful for all.

Thank you

Regards,

Gowtam
21st February 2007 From India, Hyderabad
Hi,

To add to the idea, i am putting hereunder a article on Executive Coaching:

Excerpted from "Executive Coaching Questions & Answers" published by WJM Associates, Inc

Executive Coaching is a one-on-one training and collaborative relationship between a coach and an executive interested in improving him or herself primarily in career or business related skills. The process typically lasts between three months and one year, depending on the type of intervention, and consists of face-to-face developmental discussions aimed at performance improvement or developing a particular competence. The coaching is meant to be practical and goal-focused and may concentrate on avoiding professional derailers or working through organizational issues or change initiatives.

The arrangement is an alternative to classroom-style training, and is individualized, focused, and tailored to a single individual. It is also different from “consulting”, which focuses more on results of a group within an organization or the organization as a whole.

At the heart of any effective coaching intervention lies a relationship of trust and honest, helpful feedback between the coach and coachee. Coaches provide executives with feedback they would normally never get from those they work with. Coaching should help people discover and embrace the truth about themselves, the good and the bad, so that they can change and grow. Too many people stay stuck and static in their personal and professional growth, repeating the same old patterns, because they have a distorted view of who they are, and in the case of work, how they are performing. Unless people have a realistic view of who they are, including their strengths and weaknesses, they can’t move to a new heights.

Once the executive has been made more aware of his or her personal style and areas of needed development, it is the coach’s job to create an emotional environment where positive things can happen. It is the coach’s job to collaborate with the coachee to set a limited number of well defined, performance related goals and then help the executive achieve them. The coaching should be targeted and practical.

Over sixty percent of the Global 100 companies around the world increasingly provide their most valuable executives with executive coaching to fast-track achievement and extend much-needed competencies. Executive coaching can assist an organization in achieving competitive success by translating its high performance vision into clear, actionable steps to be taken by its executives.

Executive coaching is typically used to address:

Development of high-potential leaders who are looking for improvement and/or feedback

On-boarding of new leaders

Merger or restructuring

Change in strategy

Change in required competencies or job skills

Change in management

Succession planning

Cultural alignment

Improvement of under performing executives

Managing relationships

Addressing breakdowns

Creating breakthroughs

Handling turnarounds, slow growth, stagnation, and hyper-growth

Initiating growth

Thinking outside the box

Surpassing perceived potential limits

Leadership effectiveness

More to follow.

Regards

Julie
21st February 2007 From India, Hyderabad
Hi Sanjeev,
Gone through your comments about who is a hr person and who is not.I firmly believe that what we need is a cat that catches the mouse.In other words we need people who can deliver goods.Who can work under pressure.Evenif he/she happens top be a graduate , then I do not mind calling him/her a hr person.
Regards
sundarjayram
22nd February 2007 From India, Bhubaneswar
I'm not sure how this thread has taken the turn of the 'standard of questions raised' on CiteHR but in a way I am glad that it has. This gives me a chance to raise a concern that I have had for sometime now.
It's regarding the number of 'Humour' postings as wells as the 'tragic love stories' that have been posted and reposted on this site to death.
People please think it over in regards to:
-What is the purpose of this forum?
-Are we using this forum for HR discussions or what?
Trivia is fun to exchange but use the appropriate forums or personal mail ids for it.
I leave it upto the moderator to make a call on this, but to move to the next stage in Cite HR all of us need to show a level of maturity in the quality of posting we make here.
Regards
Prachi
23rd February 2007 From Australia, Melbourne
Thanks everybody for sharing your views and thoughts.

The purpose to start this discussion is not to belittle anybody but to standardize the "Role of HR" and identify perquisites required to work in this profession.

We are living in the era of certifications and standardization of processes and procedures to fulfill the expectations of our customers and clients. Having CMM Levels, Six Sigma, PCMM, COPC etc is a must. So, it is just obvious to have similar standards in HR as well.

I have seen people working as Recruitment Managers, who are not able to explain the Business of their company, even the job profile to a consultant.

I have seen Training Managers, for whom training is nothing more than grouping certain number of people and showing them a nice presentation, without even making an attempt to identify the impact to that training.

I think, in India...time is right and ripe enough to Standardized the role of HR and let HR Professionals go for Certification.

Kindly share your views.

Regards

Sanjeev Sharma
24th February 2007 From India, Mumbai
Hi,



I do want to understand at first whether HR is about wellbeing of Human or for the person who takes it as a profession. If the first is true then first thing is we need a human face. If rest all is trues I will accept that MBA's ........ are required to become a HR.



This not the first article which I find where some one is expressing their regrest about the Non MBA's in HR profession. I would like to tell this people that there are lot of Top HR professionals who are basically graduates with 15 and 20+ years of experience in multiple functions.



To through a light on the subject Mr. Mohandass Pai who was a CFO with Infosys has taken over the HR department. I would like to know your comment on this. This is one case I have seen atleast few dozens like this.





We at Chennai networked though cite hr and we are happy to share with you that we have learned a lot and every one in the network are trying to help each other rather than pulling the legs. We want this to spread out as in Delhi and other places also.





I would recomend the moderator to warn the people who place such hurting comments.



Lets make this as a place to learn and not for display of EGO please.



Thanks and regards



Vijay
24th February 2007 From India, Coimbatore
Vijay...I don't know what you are referring to. If discussing about "Professional Approach"...if incresaing the level of thinking is EGO...then yes it is. There is no EGO involved in this posting and discussion points. It is just a difference of opinion and perception.
Kindly highlight those sentences or phrases, which you think shows the EGO.
Regards
Sanjeev Sharma
24th February 2007 From India, Mumbai
Hi Vijay and everyone,

I think I agree with Sanjeev in what he is saying - in today's world certifications and theoretical knowledge of things is extremely necessary if you want to provide quality service to your clients. I don't think Sanjeev brought it up as an "ego" issue. He is right in saying that certifications will only help HR professionals improve in what they are doing.



For example I also worked as a recruiter for some time - although I didn't have any HR certification my knowledge of IT was handy in helping choose the right people for the final interview with our big-boss. Of course if someone had asked me to design the compensation & benefit's policy I would've had a really hard time - it doesn't mean I am incapable of doing it - it just means I'm not equipped with the knowledge necessary to do the job well. So yes, I agree with Sanjeev that every HR professional should be looking to improve their knowledge through such courses - it'll help them grow in their profession.



Regards,

CHR
24th February 2007 From India, Gurgaon
Hi Every one,

The arguments are logical. Undoutly Citehr is open for all either Students, Freshers or experienced Professionals.

It is good to say "Old Wine" in a "New Bottle". Likewise Personnel Management now a days changed in HR Management.

In my opiniun there are three elements. One is

Personnel Management Second is Human Resource Management and Third is Administration. In most of the company's all three are combined and headed/leaded by one fellow.

In my opinium HRD - stand for Human Resource Development and it is not a function. In the ancient it is the function of the saints and the kings' to develop the peoples alround. It is the pure function of the Government to provide resource to develop peoples bcoz peoples are the assets of the nation.

In the Industries we develop the peoples for acomplishment of the set targets. In the organisations there are Human Resource Management instead of Human Resource Development.

Always there are new thinks and research in every fields. We should recognise and analyse the new thinks of new comers. It is always good to give chance to new professionals bcoz they having more energy, new ideas.

No one Professional is perfect. I have seen the HR Professional who knows the different latest system of HR but are awared about the legal points or statutory compliances. Would we say HR professionals ? Or those who does not have the knowledge of latest HR System, are they now HR professionals ?

It is good to discuss the things rather than arguments.

Regards

L.C.Pal
24th February 2007 From India, Delhi
I totally agree with Sanjeev and CHR moderator.

Knowledge of HR comes with experience. However, to do the job well, the courses and qualifications are necessary.

I'm only 3 years into HR, I am capable of setting HR policies, market research on compensation & benefits, payroll, performance management, performance appraisal, KPIs, recruitment, training & development, talent retainment... you name it.

However, I will have to read a lot. As nowadays, HR being a business partner, I need to know the business very well too. I am currently reading a lot on business strategy and how to align HR with the organisation's business, which is to make profit.

My knowledge in HR is sufficient for me to perform my daily tasks. But it is not sufficient for me to further add value to the organisation. Learning never stops.

I have already had an advanced diploma in Business Management, and I intend to pursue my degree in HR in near future. However, one HR consultant told me, with or without degree in HR doesn't make any difference, it is the skills and knowledge that make the organisation grow. Only constant reading that could help us grow with the market.

Regards,

Ashley
26th February 2007 From Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur
Hi.

Though, I am new to the CiteHR and the field of professionals as well then too I would like to comment on the arguement. As said by Sanjeev "whom to be consider in HR and whom to be not", its a very subjective question and the debate should go on, for our better understanding. But as far as his intentions are considered, I am not very happy bout it.

Before I go on, a bit about myself - I am a commerce with computers graduate from IP university delhi, and then I completed my post grads in Management Innovation and Change from University of Aberdeen(dec 2006).

Reason for my intro is- Change management is an integral part of HR and so is Management of innovation. But still, I donno anything about types of PFs and not much about performance analysis stuff.. So, m i not a HR person ? or if u a HR pro donno about change mgt, are u not a HR person ?

There is no specialist for whole of HR. HR is not a function but a practice with lots of subfunctions in it. here is the list of most common ones-

Labour and Employee Relations

Diversity/Affirmative action

Safety/security and health

Benifit (only/Compensation (only) nd benifits and compensation

Shared Services/Policies/HRIS

Learning

Mgt/Leadership Dev/Career dev

Training

Technical training

Recruiting/Staffing/Talent Aquizition

Talent Mgt

Orgn Development

some emerging ones-

Knowledge Mgt (institutionalization)

Change Mgt - Organizational Change/Cultural Change/Behavioral change

Information MGt

loads, right ?

So Sanjeev, be honest and analyse in how many fields are u specialized in? Cannot be all, may b few ones only.

knowledge about all cant make u a good HR person, But specialization in one can !

the reasons for dividing HR into so many fields is not coz one cant read about all.(we do it in school and then in college). but the reason for so many subfunctions is that u become the expertize in it by not just knowing about them, but to start thinking in one particular way. for eg- a person in ethics department can never be a sales or marketing person, coz his/her nature of thinking is for the benifit of others, for the society. whereas that of sales person is for the benifit of company and finally for him. Similarly, a person dealing with talent mgt,benifits, and safety of employees cannot perform the very good in change mgt.

similarly, people working as tele recruiters are also HR people and people working as training and development come under HR.

I am not too sure if my point make sense to u all.

So let me know if it does or if it dont.

Thanx

Bipul
7th March 2007 From India, Delhi
Dear Bipul,

I don't quite agree with the remarks above.

I was a specialist in Compensation & Benefits. However, that couldn't get me very far. The possibility was I might become a HR Specialist in Com & Ben. But, I would not be able to go as far as to HR General Manager. To equip myself for the next level, I needed to pursue HR in general. That was the reason I gave up the position in Com & Ben. Instead, I joined this company 8 months ago to be a HR generalist, which I am in charge of setting up the HR Dept for the company. I call myself as HR practitioner, rather than HR specialist or professional, because I practice HR.

Yes, I agree with you there are lots of functions in HR other than recruiting, training and compensation & benefits. We also need someone who specializes in these areas to help setting up a HR Dept.

I am still learning how to be a good HR person, as learning never stop for being in HR profession.

Specialized in one area couldn't make one a good HR person too. Like me. I did not know anything that you mentioned in the list. I was only a specialist in Com & Ben. But that did not make me a good HR person. Because I did not have knowledge in other field, that made me less marketable. But now, look where I am. 8 months into this company already earned me a HR generalist place, and the HR Manager position is waiting for me.

I am now good at recruiting, training, retain talented employees, set up a performance management system, KPIs, leadership, set up HR policies, restructured the organization structure, set up a whole new career path for employees, reviewed the benefits, got the safety & health policy in place, dismissal, industrial relations, workplace survey, managed impact on changes... What made me proud was recently an employee got dismissed and I handled it very well, which I never did that before. I've received complements from both my superior and the consultant.

I have knowledge of all these, am I still not a good HR person?

It's the perception that we have that make us different. You may still perceive I am still not a good HR person, but there are still other people out there which might think I am already doing a good job.

Guess what is my career goal? To step up as a CEO. Many might ask, how could a HR person become a CEO. Well, there is the possibility. It is only whether you want to achieve it. Since nowadays HR as a business partner to the organization, HR needs to understands the business goals more than others. CEO? Why not? Ambitious? Why not? I'm reading a lot now on the business and strategic planning. I need to be a business person too to help the organisation better and add more value to it.

Guess my sharing has gone completely out of topic, apologize for that. It is only for the purpose of sharing. Sorry if you are offended in any way.

Best regards,

Ashley

P/S: Let's make friends, not foe. :)
8th March 2007 From Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur
Hi Ashley,

I agree to what all u said. and I appreciate for ur frank opinion. But I wonder, where do we stand differently ?

I kept my opinion in the forum coz i felt that any one indulged in recruiting or in compensation and benifits or in change management, all are HR people.. u dont need to know everything to be a HR person. infact, no one can know everything. So, those who are into recruiting or staffing, consultancy business or service, are also HR people (while arguing with sanjeev's point).

Now, when I said that a compensation manager cant fit into other department - i didn't meant that he cant perform. but, i wanted to say he wont be the best suitable person (exceptions are always there). its because of working nature we all develop. say - a sales executive is very aggressive still polite. he develops a behavior to sell sell sell no matter what. he can give all the reasons to prove that his product is better than others. whereas, a sales advisor would tell all the pros n cons of the product comparing with other products as well (very calm in nature, and not very eager to sell but to make the customer aware and satisfied).

people do shift from one kinda job to another and in most cases they start learning from the begining (not in terms of designation but learning).

Similarly, a person dealing in one subfunction of Human Resource might have knowledge of other functions as well but cant b specialist in all. one needs to perform as per his/her job requirements. and all functions varies in it. I think for PF,compensation, and policies a person from finance backgroud would be most suited, but all can perfrom it as well. c the difference ? can do and very well do ! though this difference helps initially the most. coz in long run all would be the same..

take the simple example -

for MBA, students with commerce background enjoys the most in the begining whereas students from engg background needs to struggle with marketing and management concepts. but at the end of 4 semesters, everyone develops the same taste and attitude !

Ashley, you are at very senior level of HR and I have started working one and a half month before and that too I could find a good HR job so m working as a research analyst for a consultancy firm. So, please correct me if I am wrong any or everywhere.

ur suggestions could make a big difference in my perceptions.

Thanks

Bipul
8th March 2007 From India, Delhi
Hi.

(tried to write earlier as well, but not sure if msg was posted properly or not. so trying one more time.)

Though, I am new to the CiteHR and the field of professionals as well then too I would like to comment on the arguement. As said by Sanjeev "whom to be consider in HR and whom to be not", its a very subjective question and the debate should go on, for our better understanding. But as far as his intentions are considered, I am not very happy bout it.



Before I go on, a bit about myself - I am a commerce with computers graduate from IP university delhi, and then I completed my post grads in Management Innovation and Change from University of Aberdeen(dec 2006).



Reason for my intro is- Change management is an integral part of HR and so is Management of innovation. But still, I donno anything about types of PFs and not much about performance analysis stuff.. So, m i not a HR person ? or if u a HR pro donno about change mgt, are u not a HR person ?



There is no specialist for whole of HR. HR is not a function but a practice with lots of subfunctions in it. here is the list of most common ones-



Labour and Employee Relations

Diversity/Affirmative action

Safety/security and health

Benifit (only/Compensation (only) nd benifits and compensation

Shared Services/Policies/HRIS

Learning

Mgt/Leadership Dev/Career dev

Training

Technical training

Recruiting/Staffing/Talent Aquizition

Talent Mgt

Orgn Development



some emerging ones-

Knowledge Mgt (institutionalization)

Change Mgt - Organizational Change/Cultural Change/Behavioral change

Information MGt



loads, right ?



So Sanjeev, be honest and analyse in how many fields are u specialized in? Cannot be all, may b few ones only.



knowledge about all cant make u a good HR person, But specialization in one can !



the reasons for dividing HR into so many fields is not coz one cant read about all.(we do it in school and then in college). but the reason for so many subfunctions is that u become the expertize in it by not just knowing about them, but to start thinking in one particular way. for eg- a person in ethics department can never be a sales or marketing person, coz his/her nature of thinking is for the benifit of others, for the society. whereas that of sales person is for the benifit of company and finally for him. Similarly, a person dealing with talent mgt,benifits, and safety of employees cannot perform the very good in change mgt.



similarly, people working as tele recruiters are also HR people and people working as training and development come under HR.



I am not too sure if my point make sense to u all.

So let me know if it does or if it dont.

Thanx

Bipul
8th March 2007 From India, Delhi
Bipul, you're most welcome.
For your information, I am not at at very senior level in HR. In fact, I am only 3 years practicing HR. And I am only 8 months into setting up a HR dept on my own. Well, not really on my own, with the consultant to help. I am glad that I was given the opportunity, otherwise I'd still be specialising in one area of HR.
Let's work hard to be the best HR practitioner together.
Good luck and best wishes in all your future undertakings.
Cheers,
Ashley
10th March 2007 From Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur
Hi,
It was a good argument and i totally support Randi on this. What sounds stupid for one person may be a valuable information to the other person... I have never posted any question in this site but i love to go through each and every questions and answers to confirm whether my understanding on the topic is right or wrong(e.g how is calculate the attrition rate?).....
Sanjeev :If you think these question to be irrelevant, you can ask your doubts (like succession planning or performance appraisal) and ignore the others and i'm sure there will be some citehr group member who would respond to your question....but mind it there would be a group of person who would consider your question to be stupid.HR activities is broader aspect and cannot be restricted to the topics mentioned by you.
Regards,
Citehr Member
11th March 2007 From India, Mumbai
Hi Sanjeev,
If you into HR and experienced now but they are lot of them just entered and they have to learn
HR always need patience this is one example as u told there are lot repeating they don"t know all this.
no one knows everything only by experience they are learning
this cite is for all HR.try to help them
I didnt oppose what u said its true sometimes as you told anyone can be an HR.But being an HR is not so easy it means managing people not one so many with difft characters behaviour etc
Everyone needs job sometimes they are getting in consulting so they become as recruiter that is quite common.
12th June 2008 From India, Madras
Hi everyone,
I honestly agree with all viewpoints even i am MBA HR FRESHER but i learnt most of my subject only through CITEHR only after my third sem which was my project. Now i am promoting this site among all my friends as i feel its easier for fresher like us to understand and loads of information under one roof. Even i am member of HR.com and other sites but still feel citehr simple and easy to approach. The typical HR person is the one who have passion to win/excel. MBA, MHRM, other graduation are just entry tool but what is more important is to thrive in the field which u choose. Most of them enter the field without knowing the practical hapening but they try to acomodate to the situation with updated knowledge and the aspiration to excel. So seniors you are doing a great job for freshers like us, please try to continue helping all our citehr members. FROM ALL OUR CITEHR MEMBERS A BIG THANKS TO ALL OF YOU WHO ARE HELPING US LEARN.

Thanks,
ajithaa
13th June 2008 From India, Madras
Mr. Sanjeev,
I beg to differ on the point where you don't consider recruiters to be HR professionals..i myself am a recruiter & an engineer too.....i have been doing recruiting for the past 2.5 years & have a name for myself with my clients.......they discuss & confide a lot into me, i manage their problems to the best of my ability.....a few of my clients who are at the pinnacle in their sectors even let me decide the salaries ( in short even my recruiting fees )...n here u are saying that recruiters are not HR professionals..........

Please don't start such topics without thinking of the implications..............n never ever underestimate someone.....these recruiters can surely teach a lot of Real HR professionals a few tricks of their own trade.......

Regards
Abhishek Bhatara

Plz note: i would really be interested in seeing posts from you on
Competency Mapping;
Executive Coaching;
Succession Planning;
Organization Development;
Aligning HR with Business;
HR Metrics
Talent Management,
Career Development,
Performance Management etc.

rather than such useless posts.....
13th June 2008 From India, Pune
n these clients of mine even take my help to check attrition & other recruitment related business......
13th June 2008 From India, Pune
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