Dear Mr Saikumar
Practical problems force us to interpret law differently. Layoff in its definition does not co ntemplate stopping at the gate for non wearing of uniform if he is a workman under ID Act. At the most Standing Orders can specify the same.
I am just giving an argument to the extreme............ If an employee comes in shorts will you allow him or will you stop him at the gate?
If an employee is issued with uniform as per any agreement, then it implies wearing of uniform is a precondition to enter work premises and if he or she does not fulfill the condition, he or she need not be permitted to work.
If the Management is very strict right from day one, all will come in uniform or in dress code. If one lets it loose and start sending advisory notes etc, employees will take advantage
Can a waiter in a restaurant be without uniform or dress code? Bus conductor is always seen in uniform?
I would like to close my posting on this subject with an observation that stopping at the gate due to non wearing of uniform will not amount to lay off
Be firm and have conviction
From India, Chennai
367Practical problems force us to interpret law differently. Layoff in its definition does not co ntemplate stopping at the gate for non wearing of uniform if he is a workman under ID Act. At the most Standing Orders can specify the same.
I am just giving an argument to the extreme............ If an employee comes in shorts will you allow him or will you stop him at the gate?
If an employee is issued with uniform as per any agreement, then it implies wearing of uniform is a precondition to enter work premises and if he or she does not fulfill the condition, he or she need not be permitted to work.
If the Management is very strict right from day one, all will come in uniform or in dress code. If one lets it loose and start sending advisory notes etc, employees will take advantage
Can a waiter in a restaurant be without uniform or dress code? Bus conductor is always seen in uniform?
I would like to close my posting on this subject with an observation that stopping at the gate due to non wearing of uniform will not amount to lay off
Be firm and have conviction
From India, Chennai
Dear Sivasankaran
I can't but agree with you that the mangement shall be strict with regard to wearing uniform. Yes, as you said it can be made part of an agreement or a standing order for implementing it with much force. A debate like this unfolds other angles to an issue. Thanks.
B.Saikumar
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
I can't but agree with you that the mangement shall be strict with regard to wearing uniform. Yes, as you said it can be made part of an agreement or a standing order for implementing it with much force. A debate like this unfolds other angles to an issue. Thanks.
B.Saikumar
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Dear Saikumar,
If something is being done to maintain discipline among work force where is the harm.If we are lenient in one area this will foster in another area.Some sales managers have replied to their BM that how come wearing tie to office will affect my sales.This type of mentality if not treated at the grassroot will come up in another area.Next they will tell why do i need to attend monthly meetings.I am a performer-inform me my target over phone. As performance breeds arrogancy in some people better this be nipped in the bud.I don't think tribunal will uphold case of a work man who complains against management rule of wearing uniform,tie,helmet(if reqd).Mgmt can even force employees to wear formals on Sat too if they argue that clients do visit them on Sat too,so we need to look our best.No employee can fight this even legally.As to factory workers need to be disciplined with a reminder that they need to develop relationship with mgmt coz bearing a grudge will do no good for both.So give & take policy must be there.
From India, Bangalore
If something is being done to maintain discipline among work force where is the harm.If we are lenient in one area this will foster in another area.Some sales managers have replied to their BM that how come wearing tie to office will affect my sales.This type of mentality if not treated at the grassroot will come up in another area.Next they will tell why do i need to attend monthly meetings.I am a performer-inform me my target over phone. As performance breeds arrogancy in some people better this be nipped in the bud.I don't think tribunal will uphold case of a work man who complains against management rule of wearing uniform,tie,helmet(if reqd).Mgmt can even force employees to wear formals on Sat too if they argue that clients do visit them on Sat too,so we need to look our best.No employee can fight this even legally.As to factory workers need to be disciplined with a reminder that they need to develop relationship with mgmt coz bearing a grudge will do no good for both.So give & take policy must be there.
From India, Bangalore
Hi...
After having worked at 3 places, out of which 1 is a big industry and a dream company of all, I have known this - let your people wear what they are comfortable in.
In my organization we have this policy -
On normal days, people can be in formal or business casual (which should not be tacky like low waist jeans or deep necked clothing or too revealing clothing) However when people are going out on business meets or when other people are to visit us, we all go formal.
Also we allow ladies to choose indian or western formal as per their comfort area.
I have seen many companies who have policies of strict western formals even for ladies and have seen so many ladies in such organizations not performing to the fullest because of they being conscious of their appearance and not being able to carry themselves comfortably.
I would like to also add that if you belong to a stricter western formal approach kindly make so obvious by stating that in your HR policy and employee handbook. Also explicitly mention that to a female candidate who comes for interview so that she's in a better position to take decision. Sure we can't change company's policies for a bunch of people, but we can ensure they're not dissatisfied,
Hope it helped. :)
From India, Mumbai
After having worked at 3 places, out of which 1 is a big industry and a dream company of all, I have known this - let your people wear what they are comfortable in.
In my organization we have this policy -
On normal days, people can be in formal or business casual (which should not be tacky like low waist jeans or deep necked clothing or too revealing clothing) However when people are going out on business meets or when other people are to visit us, we all go formal.
Also we allow ladies to choose indian or western formal as per their comfort area.
I have seen many companies who have policies of strict western formals even for ladies and have seen so many ladies in such organizations not performing to the fullest because of they being conscious of their appearance and not being able to carry themselves comfortably.
I would like to also add that if you belong to a stricter western formal approach kindly make so obvious by stating that in your HR policy and employee handbook. Also explicitly mention that to a female candidate who comes for interview so that she's in a better position to take decision. Sure we can't change company's policies for a bunch of people, but we can ensure they're not dissatisfied,
Hope it helped. :)
From India, Mumbai
dear Ankita,
what we are discussing is not whether they are comfortable in formals or not.Nobody in his right sense will say he/she feels comfortable in formals but whether it should be made mandatory or not.Your so called dream co may be catering to US clients who maybe comfortable with seeing their project done by cool guys but in Indian clients mindset this looks frivolous attitude.Morever i dont think this dream co sales team would be going to meet their clients in chappals & polo t shirts.So what they must be doing is allowing back office guys to wear casuals.What i suggest is one's fashion sense should be left for display in family function & not at work.Morever employees start taking it as liberal attitude & i have seen people coming to office in chappals on Sat & torned jeans.Even there is a dress code for Sat too even if it is casuals.
It doesn't means strict western style for ladies.Salwars count as formal too if not too flashy.Morever girls who are conscious of their appearance will be same in any dress-it is a mentality-you can't change that.I don't think because some co have a stricter dress code someone will not be considering it as a career option.If somebody is doing that then he/she is always free to go coz co won't like someone who is looking for benefits of a freelancer while being in a job.I don't think i will call it stricter HR policy.This is the norm that is followed in India.If some co are liberal its their choice.
From India, Bangalore
what we are discussing is not whether they are comfortable in formals or not.Nobody in his right sense will say he/she feels comfortable in formals but whether it should be made mandatory or not.Your so called dream co may be catering to US clients who maybe comfortable with seeing their project done by cool guys but in Indian clients mindset this looks frivolous attitude.Morever i dont think this dream co sales team would be going to meet their clients in chappals & polo t shirts.So what they must be doing is allowing back office guys to wear casuals.What i suggest is one's fashion sense should be left for display in family function & not at work.Morever employees start taking it as liberal attitude & i have seen people coming to office in chappals on Sat & torned jeans.Even there is a dress code for Sat too even if it is casuals.
It doesn't means strict western style for ladies.Salwars count as formal too if not too flashy.Morever girls who are conscious of their appearance will be same in any dress-it is a mentality-you can't change that.I don't think because some co have a stricter dress code someone will not be considering it as a career option.If somebody is doing that then he/she is always free to go coz co won't like someone who is looking for benefits of a freelancer while being in a job.I don't think i will call it stricter HR policy.This is the norm that is followed in India.If some co are liberal its their choice.
From India, Bangalore
Mr. Biswal
I have worked with small indian firms as well as an Indian conglomerate...
Anyway... when it comes to dress policies - i believe you didn't read what i wrote towards the end -
"Surely we can't change our policies for a bunch of people, but we can ensure that they're not dissatisfied"
About US clients -
If we can practice something from west that can help us motivate our employees and help them to focus better, why not adapt it?
I see so many companies - especially IT and digital media allowing their employees to wear BUSINESS CASUALS and by that I do not mean people would be welcomed if they wear Casuals meant for casual outings....
Another thing...
you mentioned
I think seriously you didn't read the post full. Did i not mention the staff wears formals while going for business meets?
I said there are companies who follow stricter western formal rules even for ladies. I do know very well that salwar suits and sarees are formals for women but my point was organizations should allow.
I am sorry how can you conclude that?
I am very conscious in western formals and wouldn't be able to work. But I am better with business casuals and salwar suits.
Pls do not generalise your comments.
More so it is about how the work environment and how its fits you.
I never said one ought to be liberal. I just gave this as an option. Take it or leave it, why make a fuss over it. I know how Indian companies frame their policies and why. I know who are liberal and what is stricter. I gave a suggestion - If you like it, implement it; if you didn't continue the way you are going on...
But I don't feel a bit of sorry for what I suggested. If that was something unacceptable to you, its okay. We have different mindsets so surely I don't believe everyone to be accepting my ideas.
From India, Mumbai
I have worked with small indian firms as well as an Indian conglomerate...
Anyway... when it comes to dress policies - i believe you didn't read what i wrote towards the end -
"Surely we can't change our policies for a bunch of people, but we can ensure that they're not dissatisfied"
About US clients -
If we can practice something from west that can help us motivate our employees and help them to focus better, why not adapt it?
I see so many companies - especially IT and digital media allowing their employees to wear BUSINESS CASUALS and by that I do not mean people would be welcomed if they wear Casuals meant for casual outings....
Another thing...
you mentioned
I think seriously you didn't read the post full. Did i not mention the staff wears formals while going for business meets?
I said there are companies who follow stricter western formal rules even for ladies. I do know very well that salwar suits and sarees are formals for women but my point was organizations should allow.
I am sorry how can you conclude that?
I am very conscious in western formals and wouldn't be able to work. But I am better with business casuals and salwar suits.
Pls do not generalise your comments.
More so it is about how the work environment and how its fits you.
I never said one ought to be liberal. I just gave this as an option. Take it or leave it, why make a fuss over it. I know how Indian companies frame their policies and why. I know who are liberal and what is stricter. I gave a suggestion - If you like it, implement it; if you didn't continue the way you are going on...
But I don't feel a bit of sorry for what I suggested. If that was something unacceptable to you, its okay. We have different mindsets so surely I don't believe everyone to be accepting my ideas.
From India, Mumbai
1.Following a company's policy makes some people dissatisfied.So what?Let them be.You are not paid to cater to their whims & fancies.Allow them work from home policy if possible but don't let that cause dissatisfaction among employees who are sincerely following co rules.
2.who said wearing formals doesn't helps us to focus better.It is your figment of imagination i suppose.
3.FYI we are talking in general not about IT/Media/fashion where it is normal to dress in business casuals.
4.Except MNC co i don't think any indian co doesn't allows Salwar/Sari except for sales team in some cases.If you know any indian co name it ?
5.As to your wearing western formals as i have already said earlier we are not discussing what 1-2 co are doing,we are discussing what rest 999 co are doing.Many sales person are made to wear ties in hot humid climate.They do feel adjust.So if you are in a good job then you won't be changing just bcoz you have to wear western formals even.Morever all body type do not fit into western clothes & look plump hence feel conscious but we are talking in general.
6.Yes you are talking being liberal because we are talking about avg indian co where people must be made felt they are in office by making them wear formals because how you dress affects how we behave-unconsciously thought.So if you have heard about even freelancer they are suggested to dress up even if they are working from home bcoz it changes their attitude too.
7.Who is thinking of even taking up your suggestions which are practiced by 1% of co?HR policies made in idealistic arm chair settings don't stand the test of time & laughing stock in manufacturing co setting.So plz keep your suggestions for your dream co & come to present ground realities which i guess you are far from.
From India, Bangalore
2.who said wearing formals doesn't helps us to focus better.It is your figment of imagination i suppose.
3.FYI we are talking in general not about IT/Media/fashion where it is normal to dress in business casuals.
4.Except MNC co i don't think any indian co doesn't allows Salwar/Sari except for sales team in some cases.If you know any indian co name it ?
5.As to your wearing western formals as i have already said earlier we are not discussing what 1-2 co are doing,we are discussing what rest 999 co are doing.Many sales person are made to wear ties in hot humid climate.They do feel adjust.So if you are in a good job then you won't be changing just bcoz you have to wear western formals even.Morever all body type do not fit into western clothes & look plump hence feel conscious but we are talking in general.
6.Yes you are talking being liberal because we are talking about avg indian co where people must be made felt they are in office by making them wear formals because how you dress affects how we behave-unconsciously thought.So if you have heard about even freelancer they are suggested to dress up even if they are working from home bcoz it changes their attitude too.
7.Who is thinking of even taking up your suggestions which are practiced by 1% of co?HR policies made in idealistic arm chair settings don't stand the test of time & laughing stock in manufacturing co setting.So plz keep your suggestions for your dream co & come to present ground realities which i guess you are far from.
From India, Bangalore
I hope HR is there to know what problems the staff is facing.
Dissatisfied employees are not productive employees.
With no offence to your individual thoughts, I really do not stand by it. If people have problem and are dissatisfied, allow them to raise their points and be humane to their problem and see to it what can be done to reduce it - for me this too is a KRA for HR. Atleast I believe so and I don't care who else believes in it. I would continue to see to it my people are not dissatisfied or disengaged.
I didn't want to put it this way, but your comment compels me to do so. I said it from a lady's view point which you actually fail to understand. I really do not appreciate it and sorry if it hurts you but I have a right to put across my view points as strongly as you do.
I am very well aware. Hence I said - take it or leave it. Did I ask everyone to follow it? I don't think so. Please re-read my posts....
And i believe if we talk in general - IT, Digital Media, Fashion etc also are included in general. They ain't any aliens... They're very much human as you and me....
I wouldn't want to name it. Not only coz its against Cite's policy (if you're very much keen on following the policies you should know one of the site you're following as well) but also cause I know there would be various reasons for framing such policy.
More so Did i say framing such rules are wrong? NO. I just gave an alternative idea and expressed as to why should one think about it. Again i would emphasise - take or leave.
Exactly my point. there are different issues faced by different people. Let us not discuss as that is not the topic of discussion on this thread. I just mean to say if we have people coming to us with their grievances, let us make an attempt to solve it rather than just cocking that Everything's fine...
I don't know about this. Honestly as I said, I wear business casuals to my workplace. In all the 3 places i worked. All belonged to differnt industry and all were in different turnover segment. Anyway I was never distracted from my work cause of me dressing business casual and neither have my work-team faced a problem. They all are happy to have a business casual policy and we all know the difference between Complete Casuals and Business Casuals.
Again I would say you're generalizing on what you commented.
I said I have a right to express my view. I didn't ask you to follow. You don't follow but don't make a fuss of it. Sure you might be experienced, but honestly you cannot approve of ideas from your subordinates.
Honestly I don't even care who would validate my idea. Just as you'd progress your way, so would I.
I have implemented my suggestions and have seen them implemented at various places. You can have your policy in your workplace and pls don't deter people who wish to try something new. I didn't force you to implement it, neither am i forcing others.
Thank you for all your comments, anyway.
From India, Mumbai
Dissatisfied employees are not productive employees.
With no offence to your individual thoughts, I really do not stand by it. If people have problem and are dissatisfied, allow them to raise their points and be humane to their problem and see to it what can be done to reduce it - for me this too is a KRA for HR. Atleast I believe so and I don't care who else believes in it. I would continue to see to it my people are not dissatisfied or disengaged.
I didn't want to put it this way, but your comment compels me to do so. I said it from a lady's view point which you actually fail to understand. I really do not appreciate it and sorry if it hurts you but I have a right to put across my view points as strongly as you do.
I am very well aware. Hence I said - take it or leave it. Did I ask everyone to follow it? I don't think so. Please re-read my posts....
And i believe if we talk in general - IT, Digital Media, Fashion etc also are included in general. They ain't any aliens... They're very much human as you and me....
I wouldn't want to name it. Not only coz its against Cite's policy (if you're very much keen on following the policies you should know one of the site you're following as well) but also cause I know there would be various reasons for framing such policy.
More so Did i say framing such rules are wrong? NO. I just gave an alternative idea and expressed as to why should one think about it. Again i would emphasise - take or leave.
Exactly my point. there are different issues faced by different people. Let us not discuss as that is not the topic of discussion on this thread. I just mean to say if we have people coming to us with their grievances, let us make an attempt to solve it rather than just cocking that Everything's fine...
I don't know about this. Honestly as I said, I wear business casuals to my workplace. In all the 3 places i worked. All belonged to differnt industry and all were in different turnover segment. Anyway I was never distracted from my work cause of me dressing business casual and neither have my work-team faced a problem. They all are happy to have a business casual policy and we all know the difference between Complete Casuals and Business Casuals.
Again I would say you're generalizing on what you commented.
I said I have a right to express my view. I didn't ask you to follow. You don't follow but don't make a fuss of it. Sure you might be experienced, but honestly you cannot approve of ideas from your subordinates.
Honestly I don't even care who would validate my idea. Just as you'd progress your way, so would I.
I have implemented my suggestions and have seen them implemented at various places. You can have your policy in your workplace and pls don't deter people who wish to try something new. I didn't force you to implement it, neither am i forcing others.
Thank you for all your comments, anyway.
From India, Mumbai
dear Madam,
if you had been reading properly i said if following a co policy makes someone dissatisfied then so be it.Dont come aboard then.But don't make a fuss after coming.People will always have expectations beyond what org can provide.Hearing is one thing & bending policies is another.Following co policies doesn't make anyone in-human,i am here not to croon lullabies to few nor im interested to be a mother to them.
It/media/fashion are not trend setters.They are different industry.You can be creative in your resume while applying them because creative people are handled differently so industry is usually lenient to them bcoz they dont have fixed working hrs hence liberty in dressing & they appreciate it.You ought to know that before taking my criticism personally.
why should your work team have a problem with you wearing business casuals.is it a norm in your co to comment on what dress you wear everytime?
we are not interested in what is your statistics as to your dressing pattern but as to general dressing rules.It is pretty apparent that people in the name of trying new HR policies(reinventing the wheel i suppose) are being made in arm chair setting that too by people who have never seen the inside of a factory setting where 1000s of ordinary people work not some BPO setting dealing with teenage tantrums.I suggest go meet people in the factory to know the real India !!!
From India, Bangalore
if you had been reading properly i said if following a co policy makes someone dissatisfied then so be it.Dont come aboard then.But don't make a fuss after coming.People will always have expectations beyond what org can provide.Hearing is one thing & bending policies is another.Following co policies doesn't make anyone in-human,i am here not to croon lullabies to few nor im interested to be a mother to them.
It/media/fashion are not trend setters.They are different industry.You can be creative in your resume while applying them because creative people are handled differently so industry is usually lenient to them bcoz they dont have fixed working hrs hence liberty in dressing & they appreciate it.You ought to know that before taking my criticism personally.
why should your work team have a problem with you wearing business casuals.is it a norm in your co to comment on what dress you wear everytime?
we are not interested in what is your statistics as to your dressing pattern but as to general dressing rules.It is pretty apparent that people in the name of trying new HR policies(reinventing the wheel i suppose) are being made in arm chair setting that too by people who have never seen the inside of a factory setting where 1000s of ordinary people work not some BPO setting dealing with teenage tantrums.I suggest go meet people in the factory to know the real India !!!
From India, Bangalore
I never took your comments personally.
Anyway to sum it up I wud just say... You are looking it at it only from a manufacturer's view point or a manufacturing company whereas i had a generalistic view.
I can't mention names of companies who have changed their policies for better humanization and better engagement.
Anyway. As I said, who should be following it and who should not be, is not something we can comment on.
The reader would be smart enough and have read both the view points. let them decide what to do. I had just put across an idea. Which was commented on and I just counter argued.
Again as I said, I apologize if there was rudeness but I was putting across a plain idea. I might sound adamant to you - sorry for that but you can't deny my right to express my views...
I appreciate your comments and have taken them in positive spirit and have been humble in answering... I respect your ideas, values and comments... But that simply don't mean I was wrong.
Anyway, apologies if I hurt you (though it was all unintentional) and hope we can have a healthy discussion for better exchange of ideas and my learning purpose.
From India, Mumbai
Anyway to sum it up I wud just say... You are looking it at it only from a manufacturer's view point or a manufacturing company whereas i had a generalistic view.
I can't mention names of companies who have changed their policies for better humanization and better engagement.
Anyway. As I said, who should be following it and who should not be, is not something we can comment on.
The reader would be smart enough and have read both the view points. let them decide what to do. I had just put across an idea. Which was commented on and I just counter argued.
Again as I said, I apologize if there was rudeness but I was putting across a plain idea. I might sound adamant to you - sorry for that but you can't deny my right to express my views...
I appreciate your comments and have taken them in positive spirit and have been humble in answering... I respect your ideas, values and comments... But that simply don't mean I was wrong.
Anyway, apologies if I hurt you (though it was all unintentional) and hope we can have a healthy discussion for better exchange of ideas and my learning purpose.
From India, Mumbai
Community Support and Knowledge-base on business, career and organisational prospects and issues - Register and Log In to CiteHR and post your query, download formats and be part of a fostered community of professionals.
A-Formal & informal workers.pdf
Formal Dress Code.pps