Dear HR Managers / Executives,
You'll agree and believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after deliberate thought from Corporate Managers including the HR managers and after due consideration of Manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position on hold after they have received a good number of profiles from consultants. Obviously, they are cheating the consultants of their hard work by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame excuses "which are outside their control."
Position "ON HOLD" - Means "Thank you, you foolish consultants, now we have enough number of CV's which we can play around with and contact on our own after some time!"
This happens repeatedly with a lot of corporate clients. It's a shame on the HR Fraternity.
Then should I believe that the corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is going on in their own companies? If they are changing their requirements repeatedly, are they not competent enough to know what exactly they are looking for?
This is all hogwash. We all know they are creating their own database / pipeline of candidates.
Mr. HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying and stop cheating the consultants. I will equate this to stealing somebody's fruits of labor and hard work.
Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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4You'll agree and believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after deliberate thought from Corporate Managers including the HR managers and after due consideration of Manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position on hold after they have received a good number of profiles from consultants. Obviously, they are cheating the consultants of their hard work by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame excuses "which are outside their control."
Position "ON HOLD" - Means "Thank you, you foolish consultants, now we have enough number of CV's which we can play around with and contact on our own after some time!"
This happens repeatedly with a lot of corporate clients. It's a shame on the HR Fraternity.
Then should I believe that the corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is going on in their own companies? If they are changing their requirements repeatedly, are they not competent enough to know what exactly they are looking for?
This is all hogwash. We all know they are creating their own database / pipeline of candidates.
Mr. HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying and stop cheating the consultants. I will equate this to stealing somebody's fruits of labor and hard work.
Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Depends on the situation.
Let me give you a feel of what happens internally.
After the recruiter (corporate) tries really hard, the Hiring Manager says, "Bull Sh*&^". Hire a consultant and give me good profiles.
After consultant sends profiles, hiring manager says:
"Even they are not doing a job better than you!"
Finally, receive an email from Hiring Manager - look, I have a referral, why not hire him? I spoke to the GM about this.
:-) Cool right?
Then, the next case:
Corp recruiter works on a profile, hiring manager says "these are ok, but I need more."
Consultant hired, hiring manager says "Na- I need MORE."
And you know what happens???? At the end - we get an email "we are currently in a position where we do not need this person immediately, so wait till I tell...
Now start hunting for XXX position. Immediate. I need interviews to be scheduled tomorrow. What about the other position I told you in the morning? Where are the profiles?
You have consultants working for you, where are the profiles?"
Dear Sir/Madam,
One thing you need to understand is - the final authority is not the HR. The deciding authority is mostly not interested in talking to consultants.
And also remember, sometimes, the resumes even the corporate HR forwards to the hiring manager are sent to outside companies by the tech head or hiring manager himself. Can't help. This happens everywhere.
Everywhere.
When you ask why HR people have problems with consultants - one of my friends (with an MNC and - I would say, they have all the best systems), one day called me and informed a shocking reality. The technical Head of that company asked for profiles from Job boards from the Corporate HR, and once the profiles were forwarded - he sent the same to some other corporate HR - later on investigation it was found that he represented himself as a consultant with 15 yrs of experience;-)
Trust me - it's not to make a fool out of you. Situations are like that.
I am sorry if my experience is too small to have answered your white hair question! ;-)
Just kidding..relax!
From India, Madras
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Let me give you a feel of what happens internally.
After the recruiter (corporate) tries really hard, the Hiring Manager says, "Bull Sh*&^". Hire a consultant and give me good profiles.
After consultant sends profiles, hiring manager says:
"Even they are not doing a job better than you!"
Finally, receive an email from Hiring Manager - look, I have a referral, why not hire him? I spoke to the GM about this.
:-) Cool right?
Then, the next case:
Corp recruiter works on a profile, hiring manager says "these are ok, but I need more."
Consultant hired, hiring manager says "Na- I need MORE."
And you know what happens???? At the end - we get an email "we are currently in a position where we do not need this person immediately, so wait till I tell...
Now start hunting for XXX position. Immediate. I need interviews to be scheduled tomorrow. What about the other position I told you in the morning? Where are the profiles?
You have consultants working for you, where are the profiles?"
Dear Sir/Madam,
One thing you need to understand is - the final authority is not the HR. The deciding authority is mostly not interested in talking to consultants.
And also remember, sometimes, the resumes even the corporate HR forwards to the hiring manager are sent to outside companies by the tech head or hiring manager himself. Can't help. This happens everywhere.
Everywhere.
When you ask why HR people have problems with consultants - one of my friends (with an MNC and - I would say, they have all the best systems), one day called me and informed a shocking reality. The technical Head of that company asked for profiles from Job boards from the Corporate HR, and once the profiles were forwarded - he sent the same to some other corporate HR - later on investigation it was found that he represented himself as a consultant with 15 yrs of experience;-)
Trust me - it's not to make a fool out of you. Situations are like that.
I am sorry if my experience is too small to have answered your white hair question! ;-)
Just kidding..relax!
From India, Madras
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Dear Asha Thanks for the insight. Who do you think then should be blamed for wasting whole lot of efforts of everybody. The senior Management? Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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From India, Chandigarh
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Not the Senior Management - Never.
Had I switched over to a consulting profile, I would definitely check the following:
How soon the position is required to be closed?
What has been the interview process as of now (anyone on hold?)?
Is this a new position? (Possibilities of the position going on hold are much higher)
Check the work history of the client with other consultants.
Was I recommended to them?
I will request a con-call with the Hiring Manager (state that as the business work methodology) - will not accept something that the corporation would want to deviate from unless and until it makes sense.
I will not blame anyone for the position going on hold (because I have experienced as an internal recruiter - some reasons cannot be explained to outside people).
As a consultant, I would not just load my client with resumes...maybe a set of 5 on-dot profiles. I will keep constant check with candidates and follow-up with them in their client interactions. If the client says that the position is on hold, my dialogue would be: "Oh, ok, can we expect something in a week's time? No? Alright - my candidates have been constantly asking for updates, so let me do this, as of now there is another client who might need such profiles. I shall send it across to them if YOU say that YOU WILL NOT NEED THEM WITHIN THE NEXT 1 MONTH."
From India, Madras
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Had I switched over to a consulting profile, I would definitely check the following:
How soon the position is required to be closed?
What has been the interview process as of now (anyone on hold?)?
Is this a new position? (Possibilities of the position going on hold are much higher)
Check the work history of the client with other consultants.
Was I recommended to them?
I will request a con-call with the Hiring Manager (state that as the business work methodology) - will not accept something that the corporation would want to deviate from unless and until it makes sense.
I will not blame anyone for the position going on hold (because I have experienced as an internal recruiter - some reasons cannot be explained to outside people).
As a consultant, I would not just load my client with resumes...maybe a set of 5 on-dot profiles. I will keep constant check with candidates and follow-up with them in their client interactions. If the client says that the position is on hold, my dialogue would be: "Oh, ok, can we expect something in a week's time? No? Alright - my candidates have been constantly asking for updates, so let me do this, as of now there is another client who might need such profiles. I shall send it across to them if YOU say that YOU WILL NOT NEED THEM WITHIN THE NEXT 1 MONTH."
From India, Madras
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Dear Asha,
Continuing from your remarks on the earlier thread:
- Yes, it is very obvious. But, in fact, that was the purpose - to highlight about the corporate HR people being bad. :-P
- Well, it's a common courtesy to express thanks for support. :icon1:
- Somehow, I agree with his/her remarks (experience does have its uses) about Amish Bhatt. :-D
Having said that, I am unable to understand how a mature person (age has nothing to do with maturity) like you is unable to see/judge the issue objectively??? :?:
Although I have seen only one side of it (Corp HR), I tend to agree with the aggrieved GHA because I know for sure that corporate guys (that includes Fin & Act as well - I go to them to enable early release of their outstanding bills) resent (to put it mildly) with a capital R; the Consultants (unless it is one of the big MNC outfits or the old reputed ones).
***
But this time, you have hit the nail bang on the head: :icon1:
I particularly liked the last para. Good strategy - and should be adopted by all if they think they are being cheated.
I have two more observations to make:
- I tend to agree that Consultants do not do their homework; don't train their people/associate well; do not 'practice' Key Account Management system; and have not been sensitized to the pressures and the whims of top management that befall the HR people. Just recall the nightmare of the Interview Day - from seating arrangement, keeping tabs on the interview panel, verifying documents, reimbursement of traveling expenses; and the occasional/frequent postponement of Interviews... the list seems to be endless.
- Personally, I haven't come across a case of such "cheating" of denying their dues and CV's sent by Consultants being used. There are two reasons for it:
1. Companies themselves have their login ID & account with various job portals to assess the database of CV's and call up candidates on their own.
2. Consultants keep a tab on such candidates whose CV's they have sent. In fact, I know an extreme case where a candidate has come on his own and got selected. Now this candidate (as stated by him, later) had met the consultant who has forwarded the CV to various other companies (for similar positions); yet the aggressive consultant (who came to know of his appointment from him) raised a dispute claiming that the candidate was sent by him!
Finally, getting down to the brass-tacks; I do empathize with the insecurity felt by the consultants; they don't have a 'copyright' on the CV's nor can they bind the job applicants under any contract; and so, are at the mercy of the sardonically gleeful Corporate HR.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Continuing from your remarks on the earlier thread:
- Yes, it is very obvious. But, in fact, that was the purpose - to highlight about the corporate HR people being bad. :-P
- Well, it's a common courtesy to express thanks for support. :icon1:
- Somehow, I agree with his/her remarks (experience does have its uses) about Amish Bhatt. :-D
Having said that, I am unable to understand how a mature person (age has nothing to do with maturity) like you is unable to see/judge the issue objectively??? :?:
Although I have seen only one side of it (Corp HR), I tend to agree with the aggrieved GHA because I know for sure that corporate guys (that includes Fin & Act as well - I go to them to enable early release of their outstanding bills) resent (to put it mildly) with a capital R; the Consultants (unless it is one of the big MNC outfits or the old reputed ones).
***
But this time, you have hit the nail bang on the head: :icon1:
I particularly liked the last para. Good strategy - and should be adopted by all if they think they are being cheated.
I have two more observations to make:
- I tend to agree that Consultants do not do their homework; don't train their people/associate well; do not 'practice' Key Account Management system; and have not been sensitized to the pressures and the whims of top management that befall the HR people. Just recall the nightmare of the Interview Day - from seating arrangement, keeping tabs on the interview panel, verifying documents, reimbursement of traveling expenses; and the occasional/frequent postponement of Interviews... the list seems to be endless.
- Personally, I haven't come across a case of such "cheating" of denying their dues and CV's sent by Consultants being used. There are two reasons for it:
1. Companies themselves have their login ID & account with various job portals to assess the database of CV's and call up candidates on their own.
2. Consultants keep a tab on such candidates whose CV's they have sent. In fact, I know an extreme case where a candidate has come on his own and got selected. Now this candidate (as stated by him, later) had met the consultant who has forwarded the CV to various other companies (for similar positions); yet the aggressive consultant (who came to know of his appointment from him) raised a dispute claiming that the candidate was sent by him!
Finally, getting down to the brass-tacks; I do empathize with the insecurity felt by the consultants; they don't have a 'copyright' on the CV's nor can they bind the job applicants under any contract; and so, are at the mercy of the sardonically gleeful Corporate HR.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Raj and Asha,
Thanks a ton!
Finally, some concrete and practical suggestions have started to come in!
We pride ourselves on the fact that we have worked out most of the things mentioned by you and Asha. We think about recruitments day in and day out. We are process-driven and have 32 steps laid down right from BD till payment is received. Each step has a detailed procedure with contingencies/exception handling, a detailed script on the way to communicate with all stakeholders (clients, candidates, internal communication, etc.).
We have Key Account Managers for multiple accounts who have a good knowledge about the industry. They are encouraged to know and keep tabs on the client's ins and outs. The accounts, even to the consultants, have been distributed keeping their comfort level, experience, and preferences so that they are enthusiastically involved with the clients.
We work through a customized Applicant Tracking System and have built our own database over the years through referrals. We have strong techniques using the internet to hunt for candidates. We have trained our consultants to search for candidates using various methods without resorting to job portals.
Every Saturday, we have a 2-hour training session which is intensive and exciting as we cover all topics related to recruitments, HRD, processes, soft skills, technical aspects, etc.
I am telling you all this to show that we take our job seriously and know what happens at the other end. We cater to that too. But still, we get cheated, and we know we are being cheated, but can't do anything.
I agree the profiles are available on the portals. But it takes selling (the company and the position) to attract good/passive candidates. Several times we have convinced the candidate to consider the opening (with success) after the client has failed to attract a particular candidate. Recruitment is a selling job. If I have been able to sell a position to the candidate, he is damn well my candidate! - Portal or no portal.
How we sell to the candidate is again a very deliberate and studied process keeping various psychological hooks. We are trying to take recruitments to the next level, and here we get bossed by junior HR executives who don't even know a JD well, can't write one. They search for the CVs sent by us using various keywords (name, company, etc.). It is easy. You send me a CV without contact details and remove the name too. I'll send you back the original CV before you can shut down your PC. They do this all the time and declare the CV duplicate.
Sometimes the candidate has not even heard about the company, and we get to hear from Corporate HR - "we have already spoken to the candidate and he is under consideration"... Wow! I know candidates lie sometimes, but we have ways of checking that out and send only profiles who have not been approached at all. Still, they are "duplicate."
Mr. HR Manager and his team cheat us, repeatedly. After all, they have to justify their existence in their organizations. We help them do that, and they stab us behind our backs.
I consider this as a "character" issue, and since it is so widespread, I can say it is an "Indian Character."
Idhar, sab chalta hai!
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks a ton!
Finally, some concrete and practical suggestions have started to come in!
We pride ourselves on the fact that we have worked out most of the things mentioned by you and Asha. We think about recruitments day in and day out. We are process-driven and have 32 steps laid down right from BD till payment is received. Each step has a detailed procedure with contingencies/exception handling, a detailed script on the way to communicate with all stakeholders (clients, candidates, internal communication, etc.).
We have Key Account Managers for multiple accounts who have a good knowledge about the industry. They are encouraged to know and keep tabs on the client's ins and outs. The accounts, even to the consultants, have been distributed keeping their comfort level, experience, and preferences so that they are enthusiastically involved with the clients.
We work through a customized Applicant Tracking System and have built our own database over the years through referrals. We have strong techniques using the internet to hunt for candidates. We have trained our consultants to search for candidates using various methods without resorting to job portals.
Every Saturday, we have a 2-hour training session which is intensive and exciting as we cover all topics related to recruitments, HRD, processes, soft skills, technical aspects, etc.
I am telling you all this to show that we take our job seriously and know what happens at the other end. We cater to that too. But still, we get cheated, and we know we are being cheated, but can't do anything.
I agree the profiles are available on the portals. But it takes selling (the company and the position) to attract good/passive candidates. Several times we have convinced the candidate to consider the opening (with success) after the client has failed to attract a particular candidate. Recruitment is a selling job. If I have been able to sell a position to the candidate, he is damn well my candidate! - Portal or no portal.
How we sell to the candidate is again a very deliberate and studied process keeping various psychological hooks. We are trying to take recruitments to the next level, and here we get bossed by junior HR executives who don't even know a JD well, can't write one. They search for the CVs sent by us using various keywords (name, company, etc.). It is easy. You send me a CV without contact details and remove the name too. I'll send you back the original CV before you can shut down your PC. They do this all the time and declare the CV duplicate.
Sometimes the candidate has not even heard about the company, and we get to hear from Corporate HR - "we have already spoken to the candidate and he is under consideration"... Wow! I know candidates lie sometimes, but we have ways of checking that out and send only profiles who have not been approached at all. Still, they are "duplicate."
Mr. HR Manager and his team cheat us, repeatedly. After all, they have to justify their existence in their organizations. We help them do that, and they stab us behind our backs.
I consider this as a "character" issue, and since it is so widespread, I can say it is an "Indian Character."
Idhar, sab chalta hai!
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
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To some extent, I agree with your comments, but it's not fair to blame the HR department entirely for the episode. You should also understand that HR acts as a mediator between senior management and the associates. It's important to remember that HR is not given full authority in most organizations; we are just front-liners. It's one of the most thankless jobs in this industry. :)
- Shailender Reddy
From India, Hyderabad
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- Shailender Reddy
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear GHA,
Please don't portray it as Indian Character. I have had a bad experience with a US client - Merck Pharmaceuticals. I worked so hard for their positions, and being in this business, you will definitely know the amount of documentation and quality we maintain for international clients (ours is ISO certified).
After providing almost 200 candidates for 32 locations across the US, I learned from the VP of Recruitments that the HIRING MANAGER was faking all the positions. No such positions existed, and in the process, one of my candidates was placed, but the Hiring Manager did not inform us. Luckily, I had access to their ATS and found out.
Later, the Hiring Manager was fired due to a few other mishandlings too.
So it was my first experience and lesson on "Never worship the client." Always get to the core of the reality and find out if the company is truly hiring.
My experience with Unisys was wonderful - they have the perfect hiring strategy.
Let me tell you, it's the individual attitude of the employee that can change the way an outsider looks at the company. Please don't put it as the Indian Way (oops, I am sensitive when someone points out my country). Again - I may be blinded by this affair with my country, haven't traveled outside, and think that even if I travel abroad, I would still consider my country as the first option for anything I see as the best - you see...blinded by love - one-sided, I guess ;-)
From India, Madras
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Please don't portray it as Indian Character. I have had a bad experience with a US client - Merck Pharmaceuticals. I worked so hard for their positions, and being in this business, you will definitely know the amount of documentation and quality we maintain for international clients (ours is ISO certified).
After providing almost 200 candidates for 32 locations across the US, I learned from the VP of Recruitments that the HIRING MANAGER was faking all the positions. No such positions existed, and in the process, one of my candidates was placed, but the Hiring Manager did not inform us. Luckily, I had access to their ATS and found out.
Later, the Hiring Manager was fired due to a few other mishandlings too.
So it was my first experience and lesson on "Never worship the client." Always get to the core of the reality and find out if the company is truly hiring.
My experience with Unisys was wonderful - they have the perfect hiring strategy.
Let me tell you, it's the individual attitude of the employee that can change the way an outsider looks at the company. Please don't put it as the Indian Way (oops, I am sensitive when someone points out my country). Again - I may be blinded by this affair with my country, haven't traveled outside, and think that even if I travel abroad, I would still consider my country as the first option for anything I see as the best - you see...blinded by love - one-sided, I guess ;-)
From India, Madras
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Hi, I agree with you, but I think by doing this act, they are being loyal to the company and working for what they are paid for. Consultants don't have an association or a body to fight for their problems and rights, nor do we have some defined status of a consultant. So, we are at their mercy and easily replaceable.
From India, New Delhi
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From India, New Delhi
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Another point GHA:
What happens is, already the resumes on job boards are downloaded, and a few corporate HRs send them to the technical manager for shortlisting. The technical managers take their own sweet time in responding. During this time, you may have spoken to a nice candidate whose resume has already been forwarded to the tech manager. So, technically, the candidate is in the process of "consideration" already. Only if the tech manager nods his head, the corporate HR initiates a conversation.
I am telling you - make sure the candidate has not put their resume on job boards. Even if they did, talk to the client and ask them who the candidates in the process are so that repetition will be minimal. You can ask for the names alone, no harm.
From India, Madras
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What happens is, already the resumes on job boards are downloaded, and a few corporate HRs send them to the technical manager for shortlisting. The technical managers take their own sweet time in responding. During this time, you may have spoken to a nice candidate whose resume has already been forwarded to the tech manager. So, technically, the candidate is in the process of "consideration" already. Only if the tech manager nods his head, the corporate HR initiates a conversation.
I am telling you - make sure the candidate has not put their resume on job boards. Even if they did, talk to the client and ask them who the candidates in the process are so that repetition will be minimal. You can ask for the names alone, no harm.
From India, Madras
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Dear Asha,
I appreciate your sentiments about India and about being an Indian. I feel the same way about India.
However, if we need to improve as a nation, we need to look at our weak points, accept our shortcomings, and work on improving them. We need to introspect and be critical of ourselves. We should not be content with the flaws we see but instead have the desire to address and rectify them. Patriotism is important, but it should not lack depth.
In general, as a nation, we are overly tolerant, too quick to accept, and too quick to adapt. A notable example is terrorism. It often takes a tragic event like 26/11 for us to take action. We must remember the power of protesting and raising our voices. Only a few thousand Mumbaikars managed to bring down the Home Minister and others. This highlights the impact of speaking out.
We must raise our voices more frequently and stop tolerating injustice, corruption, and exploitation everywhere. I can only expect others to act if I take action myself.
Let's strive to create a more ethical and honest business environment. This is my goal. Such protests are a small part of our efforts to cultivate a business society based on honesty and ethics.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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I appreciate your sentiments about India and about being an Indian. I feel the same way about India.
However, if we need to improve as a nation, we need to look at our weak points, accept our shortcomings, and work on improving them. We need to introspect and be critical of ourselves. We should not be content with the flaws we see but instead have the desire to address and rectify them. Patriotism is important, but it should not lack depth.
In general, as a nation, we are overly tolerant, too quick to accept, and too quick to adapt. A notable example is terrorism. It often takes a tragic event like 26/11 for us to take action. We must remember the power of protesting and raising our voices. Only a few thousand Mumbaikars managed to bring down the Home Minister and others. This highlights the impact of speaking out.
We must raise our voices more frequently and stop tolerating injustice, corruption, and exploitation everywhere. I can only expect others to act if I take action myself.
Let's strive to create a more ethical and honest business environment. This is my goal. Such protests are a small part of our efforts to cultivate a business society based on honesty and ethics.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Hi Swastik,
If they are being loyal to their companies by cheating others, that should not be tolerated or accepted. Here loyalty is not a virtue but makes them an accomplice in bad HR practices, fraud, deceit, and cheating. Would anyone like to be known as a "Loyal Thief"? Yes, but only in his own gang of thieves. Terrorists are also loyal to their outfits. Should we tolerate them because they are "loyal"?
We need to see in what context they are loyal. If I pay you to steal, will you do it? It is a question of ethics, following corrupt practices, and cheating. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat, however loyal.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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If they are being loyal to their companies by cheating others, that should not be tolerated or accepted. Here loyalty is not a virtue but makes them an accomplice in bad HR practices, fraud, deceit, and cheating. Would anyone like to be known as a "Loyal Thief"? Yes, but only in his own gang of thieves. Terrorists are also loyal to their outfits. Should we tolerate them because they are "loyal"?
We need to see in what context they are loyal. If I pay you to steal, will you do it? It is a question of ethics, following corrupt practices, and cheating. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat, however loyal.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Hi All,
I disagree about the views posted "The Position is on Hold!" - Are you cheating Mr. Manager?
It is sensible enough that the corporates think twice before allocating the position to consultants. It's fair enough that they require paying a handsome amount towards recruitment. I certainly do not deny the efforts of consultants.
The positions are put on hold due to a variety of reasons not necessarily with an intent to cheat the consultant. It is sometimes done to wait until the approval of the clients, to choose between the shortlisted candidates, etc.
All of us have to agree that the number of selected candidates is not equal to the joiners. The ratio is at the maximum 60-70% depending on the industry. HR professionals always have to keep this in mind while allocating the open positions. That, according to me, is practicality.
I think you are taking the darker side of things. A very pessimistic view.
"There are always two sides of a coin... it's up to you to choose from."
Moreover, you are entirely generalizing it. HR is HR, consultant, or corporate, wondering why so much argument on this anyways. As discussed earlier, both have their positives and negatives though.
Though I am not aware of the reason for your frustration, I still insist you cannot blame others. Decisions in the company are not based on a single point of view but a series of people.
As far as the question of competency is concerned, all of us have our weaknesses and strengths whether working for a consultant or a corporate.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Madras
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I disagree about the views posted "The Position is on Hold!" - Are you cheating Mr. Manager?
It is sensible enough that the corporates think twice before allocating the position to consultants. It's fair enough that they require paying a handsome amount towards recruitment. I certainly do not deny the efforts of consultants.
The positions are put on hold due to a variety of reasons not necessarily with an intent to cheat the consultant. It is sometimes done to wait until the approval of the clients, to choose between the shortlisted candidates, etc.
All of us have to agree that the number of selected candidates is not equal to the joiners. The ratio is at the maximum 60-70% depending on the industry. HR professionals always have to keep this in mind while allocating the open positions. That, according to me, is practicality.
I think you are taking the darker side of things. A very pessimistic view.
"There are always two sides of a coin... it's up to you to choose from."
Moreover, you are entirely generalizing it. HR is HR, consultant, or corporate, wondering why so much argument on this anyways. As discussed earlier, both have their positives and negatives though.
Though I am not aware of the reason for your frustration, I still insist you cannot blame others. Decisions in the company are not based on a single point of view but a series of people.
As far as the question of competency is concerned, all of us have our weaknesses and strengths whether working for a consultant or a corporate.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Madras
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Dear Shailender,
Thanks for your forthright view. We realize the situation the Corp HR is in. We know sometimes things are dictated by higher-ups/others. We empathize with the Good Corp HR on this account. I would only be concerned about the malpractices that are followed by some of the Corp HR professionals themselves. That should stop. For us, the HR Manager is THE Client. We look up to him to give us a fair chance to earn an honest living. Give us a level playing field... and then may the smartest, most resourceful, most hardworking, ethical, and honest consultant win!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your forthright view. We realize the situation the Corp HR is in. We know sometimes things are dictated by higher-ups/others. We empathize with the Good Corp HR on this account. I would only be concerned about the malpractices that are followed by some of the Corp HR professionals themselves. That should stop. For us, the HR Manager is THE Client. We look up to him to give us a fair chance to earn an honest living. Give us a level playing field... and then may the smartest, most resourceful, most hardworking, ethical, and honest consultant win!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Point here is that you forward a profile internally and get a nod. What if the candidate says he is not interested?
The whole point is getting a "Passive" candidate interested & excited about an opening by selling it to him in the right way.
The consultants sell the position in a way the client can't sell. And once the consultant has successfully been able to convince the candidate to explore the opening, the client "duplicates" the profile just because he had also downloaded it.
We need to realize that there are only so many candidates fitting the criteria the client is looking for. Most of the good candidates (by rule) would not be convinced easily to change. So it boils down to the selling part.
Who actually sold the position to the candidate? I hope all the recruiters will agree that finally Recruitment is a selling business.
As far as job portals are concerned, most have their CV's posted up. As I said in an earlier post, we have been able to convince good candidates after they have refused a client!! That should be proof enough that it is the selling of the position which matters.
I hope you are convinced. I am sure most of the consultants would agree with me.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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The whole point is getting a "Passive" candidate interested & excited about an opening by selling it to him in the right way.
The consultants sell the position in a way the client can't sell. And once the consultant has successfully been able to convince the candidate to explore the opening, the client "duplicates" the profile just because he had also downloaded it.
We need to realize that there are only so many candidates fitting the criteria the client is looking for. Most of the good candidates (by rule) would not be convinced easily to change. So it boils down to the selling part.
Who actually sold the position to the candidate? I hope all the recruiters will agree that finally Recruitment is a selling business.
As far as job portals are concerned, most have their CV's posted up. As I said in an earlier post, we have been able to convince good candidates after they have refused a client!! That should be proof enough that it is the selling of the position which matters.
I hope you are convinced. I am sure most of the consultants would agree with me.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Rajita This is the wrong thread to post this. Please start a fresh thread woith your request. Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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From India, Chandigarh
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This is not like that. Sometimes when HR people do not find job-matched profiles or want to fill positions internally, they tell consultants that the position is on hold. Sometimes HR people succeed in retaining employees after receiving resignations. I do not agree with this view. If a position arises, it cannot be put on hold; it must be filled either externally or internally. Sometimes consultants are in a hurry to get outcomes, making numerous calls to HR people. This can irritate HR professionals, who often respond that the position is on hold. I believe many of you may agree with the points mentioned above. It's all about relationships; how long you want to retain employees is up to you. Do not blame HR professionals without knowing the facts.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Dear Divya,
I agree that there could be genuine reasons when a position goes on hold. We come to know about that.
You mean to say that each and every time a position goes on hold (which happens a LOT!) - not to be revived again, there is a genuine reason!
Putting on hold till the profiles are being shortlisted / processed, candidates being interviewed - is fine, we understand. But what about an "Urgent" position which is put on hold (for Good) once enough work has been done on it. And then we find one of our candidates has joined after interviews were conducted without informing us?
Many times we are told that our candidate has been rejected, and two weeks later, we find that he has joined. Meanwhile, the Bad Corp HR is interacting with us on a whole lot of new positions and conveniently avoids telling us that. This is cheating!! Is it not??
Are you telling me Corp HR does not create its own database & their own pipeline of candidates using consultants?
We are forced to look at the darker side because it is OUR effort that goes to waste. It is WE who are taken for a ride & used. And we want the BAD Corp HR to stop doing it.
The Good Corp HR who do their jobs honestly are not in question here. Only the cheaters who also form part of the Corp HR.
Would good people like you not like to tell your bad HR brethren to please stop exploiting consultants?
Again, the advice would come... "Aree yaar..ye sab to chalta hai....don't cry.."
Good HR Associates
Hi All,
I disagree about the views posted "The Position is on Hold!" - Are you cheating Mr. Manager?
It is sensible enough that the corporates think twice before allocating the position to consultants. It's fair enough that they require paying a handsome amount towards recruitment. I certainly do not deny the efforts of consultants.
The positions are put on hold due to a variety of reasons not necessarily with an intend to cheat the consultant. It is sometimes done to wait till the approval of the clients, to choose between the shortlisted candidates, etc.
All of us have to agree that the number of selected candidates is not equal to the joiners. The ratio is around at the max 60-70% depending on the industry. HR's always have to keep this in mind while allocating the open positions. That according to me is practicality.
I think you are taking the darker side of things. A very pessimistic view.
"There are always two sides of a coin...it's up to you to choose from."
Moreover, you are entirely generalizing it. HR is HR, consultant or corporate wonder why so much argument on this anyways. As discussed earlier, both have their positives and negatives though.
Though I am not aware of the reason for your frustration, I still insist you cannot blame others. Decisions in the company are not based on a single point of view but a series of people.
As far as the question of competency is concerned, all of us have our weaknesses and strengths whether working for a consultant or a corporate.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Chandigarh
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I agree that there could be genuine reasons when a position goes on hold. We come to know about that.
You mean to say that each and every time a position goes on hold (which happens a LOT!) - not to be revived again, there is a genuine reason!
Putting on hold till the profiles are being shortlisted / processed, candidates being interviewed - is fine, we understand. But what about an "Urgent" position which is put on hold (for Good) once enough work has been done on it. And then we find one of our candidates has joined after interviews were conducted without informing us?
Many times we are told that our candidate has been rejected, and two weeks later, we find that he has joined. Meanwhile, the Bad Corp HR is interacting with us on a whole lot of new positions and conveniently avoids telling us that. This is cheating!! Is it not??
Are you telling me Corp HR does not create its own database & their own pipeline of candidates using consultants?
We are forced to look at the darker side because it is OUR effort that goes to waste. It is WE who are taken for a ride & used. And we want the BAD Corp HR to stop doing it.
The Good Corp HR who do their jobs honestly are not in question here. Only the cheaters who also form part of the Corp HR.
Would good people like you not like to tell your bad HR brethren to please stop exploiting consultants?
Again, the advice would come... "Aree yaar..ye sab to chalta hai....don't cry.."
Good HR Associates
Hi All,
I disagree about the views posted "The Position is on Hold!" - Are you cheating Mr. Manager?
It is sensible enough that the corporates think twice before allocating the position to consultants. It's fair enough that they require paying a handsome amount towards recruitment. I certainly do not deny the efforts of consultants.
The positions are put on hold due to a variety of reasons not necessarily with an intend to cheat the consultant. It is sometimes done to wait till the approval of the clients, to choose between the shortlisted candidates, etc.
All of us have to agree that the number of selected candidates is not equal to the joiners. The ratio is around at the max 60-70% depending on the industry. HR's always have to keep this in mind while allocating the open positions. That according to me is practicality.
I think you are taking the darker side of things. A very pessimistic view.
"There are always two sides of a coin...it's up to you to choose from."
Moreover, you are entirely generalizing it. HR is HR, consultant or corporate wonder why so much argument on this anyways. As discussed earlier, both have their positives and negatives though.
Though I am not aware of the reason for your frustration, I still insist you cannot blame others. Decisions in the company are not based on a single point of view but a series of people.
As far as the question of competency is concerned, all of us have our weaknesses and strengths whether working for a consultant or a corporate.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Chandigarh
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Hi,
Yes, there are people who practice these kinds of cheap tricks. We are involved in hiring, and recently I discovered that when we asked our consultant for the profiles, we were surprised to find that the profiles did not include the candidates' contact details. This implies that we have to rely solely on the consultant until the closure, as there is also no email ID provided.
Therefore, going forward, we can follow the same approach when forwarding profiles to HR managers or corporate heads. It is not wrong to safeguard your business and your efforts.
Regards,
Rajanikanth
Asst. Manager - HR
From India, Hyderabad
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Yes, there are people who practice these kinds of cheap tricks. We are involved in hiring, and recently I discovered that when we asked our consultant for the profiles, we were surprised to find that the profiles did not include the candidates' contact details. This implies that we have to rely solely on the consultant until the closure, as there is also no email ID provided.
Therefore, going forward, we can follow the same approach when forwarding profiles to HR managers or corporate heads. It is not wrong to safeguard your business and your efforts.
Regards,
Rajanikanth
Asst. Manager - HR
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear GHA,
I agree - selling is different. Maybe you can do it much better than the corporate HR.
But why not be on the safer side. Ask them for the list of people (names who are in the process already / or already downloaded). I guess it should be of no problem to them.
I did that in my previous co - to help my consultant understand that "I already have a set of profiles". Convincing a candidate has never been an issue from my end... In fact - my consultant shared a wonderful profile with me. I was excited.. so was my Managing Director. But the consultant could not convince, so he called me and asked ME to convince his candidate.
I did it. He was convinced. (not selected after interview though... because the position went on hold!)
So - you see, efforts are there from both the ends. My consultant was upset that the position went on hold, because he felt that "MY" efforts went to waste. It's a teamwork GHA...
Had we hired that person, we would have definitely paid them! (You see.... finding a passive profile is so hard, we know that.)
And about acting / talking against violence - yes, we should act for others to act.
Never blame. (I have done this - it does not work for me... people just join the blame game) Start by highlighting and showing facts.
I can give you "n" number of facts that would highlight why India is a million times better than US clients. Trust me - a few suck to the core.
You were asking why I protested against female insecurity.
I did not protest. - we are creating awareness among women - on how to react.
If I sit and complain, everyone will say "Yes Yes...some men are bad."
If I give one tight slap to a guy who misbehaves, he will shut his mouth (and I will also know that I need not be afraid and cry).
The awareness part is what we are communicating.
From India, Madras
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I agree - selling is different. Maybe you can do it much better than the corporate HR.
But why not be on the safer side. Ask them for the list of people (names who are in the process already / or already downloaded). I guess it should be of no problem to them.
I did that in my previous co - to help my consultant understand that "I already have a set of profiles". Convincing a candidate has never been an issue from my end... In fact - my consultant shared a wonderful profile with me. I was excited.. so was my Managing Director. But the consultant could not convince, so he called me and asked ME to convince his candidate.
I did it. He was convinced. (not selected after interview though... because the position went on hold!)
So - you see, efforts are there from both the ends. My consultant was upset that the position went on hold, because he felt that "MY" efforts went to waste. It's a teamwork GHA...
Had we hired that person, we would have definitely paid them! (You see.... finding a passive profile is so hard, we know that.)
And about acting / talking against violence - yes, we should act for others to act.
Never blame. (I have done this - it does not work for me... people just join the blame game) Start by highlighting and showing facts.
I can give you "n" number of facts that would highlight why India is a million times better than US clients. Trust me - a few suck to the core.
You were asking why I protested against female insecurity.
I did not protest. - we are creating awareness among women - on how to react.
If I sit and complain, everyone will say "Yes Yes...some men are bad."
If I give one tight slap to a guy who misbehaves, he will shut his mouth (and I will also know that I need not be afraid and cry).
The awareness part is what we are communicating.
From India, Madras
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Just like how in a company culture flows from top to bottom, in a country, the culture flows from top to bottom.
We have a few political comedians who are fit for nothing! I must say, in that case, we are far below average compared to any other country. Even an ordinary robber will accept in his heart that he is committing a crime, but our politicians in broad daylight themselves steal! They say they have the power.
Why mention - one of the VAFI strategies was to keep women informed of local police station contact details (address). Now policemen themselves rape women reaching out for their help (fact - recent 6 Delhi constables who raped a girl)... where to go?
;-) Reality check!
From India, Madras
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We have a few political comedians who are fit for nothing! I must say, in that case, we are far below average compared to any other country. Even an ordinary robber will accept in his heart that he is committing a crime, but our politicians in broad daylight themselves steal! They say they have the power.
Why mention - one of the VAFI strategies was to keep women informed of local police station contact details (address). Now policemen themselves rape women reaching out for their help (fact - recent 6 Delhi constables who raped a girl)... where to go?
;-) Reality check!
From India, Madras
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Good HR Associates. This is how you address your company, right? But I cannot see any good, neither in your language nor in your behavior. The way you write, it seems your company possesses zero professionalism. Before writing such things about corporate HR, I think you forgot that these are your clients from where you get your revenue and your bread and butter. How can someone who is professional write something like this about their clients on a social networking site?
For your kind information, we, corporate HR, never lie to anyone. If the position is on hold, we tell the truth. Moreover, the position goes on hold mainly because of the consultants. Why? I will tell you. When we receive the requirement from the technical department, they want the position to be closed within a time frame. We pass on the requirements to the consultant with the proper JD and explain the time frame to them. Firstly, they will send some scrap and waste at least three to four days, which is beyond the time frame. Finally, when they know exactly what they need to search for, the position goes on hold as the technical department does not require anyone since the project is being completed.
Apart from this, instead of supporting the client, the consultant tries to support the candidates and forces us to increase the package, which is not within our budget. To hide their incapabilities, they say it's hard to find a candidate with XYZ package and skills and later claim that they have sent numerous profiles before.
So, the profiles they send and have in our database are actually scrap, and we cannot use them in the future. I don't understand why the consultant cannot train their recruiters to send some good profiles as per the JD within the TAT. Now, that's a SHAME.
So, now, stop complaining about corporate HR and go and do some work. "As it says, action speaks louder than voice."
From India, Delhi
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For your kind information, we, corporate HR, never lie to anyone. If the position is on hold, we tell the truth. Moreover, the position goes on hold mainly because of the consultants. Why? I will tell you. When we receive the requirement from the technical department, they want the position to be closed within a time frame. We pass on the requirements to the consultant with the proper JD and explain the time frame to them. Firstly, they will send some scrap and waste at least three to four days, which is beyond the time frame. Finally, when they know exactly what they need to search for, the position goes on hold as the technical department does not require anyone since the project is being completed.
Apart from this, instead of supporting the client, the consultant tries to support the candidates and forces us to increase the package, which is not within our budget. To hide their incapabilities, they say it's hard to find a candidate with XYZ package and skills and later claim that they have sent numerous profiles before.
So, the profiles they send and have in our database are actually scrap, and we cannot use them in the future. I don't understand why the consultant cannot train their recruiters to send some good profiles as per the JD within the TAT. Now, that's a SHAME.
So, now, stop complaining about corporate HR and go and do some work. "As it says, action speaks louder than voice."
From India, Delhi
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Dear Mousumi,
Thanks for your views. But I wish you had read all the posts by me carefully before posting your opinions. You have given a knee-jerk reaction like so many others :(
The complaint is against the Bad HR practices & Bad Corporate professionals. I am assuming you are good so you don't need to defend the Bad Corp HR. You may give us some ideas on how to deal with Bad Corp HR, like Asha has tried to help.
Good HR Associates.
Mousumi kakoty said: "Good HR Associates. This is how you address your company, right? But I cannot see any good neither in your language nor in your behavior. The way you write, it seems your company possesses zero professionalism. Before writing such things about corporate HR, I think you forgot that these are your clients from where you get your revenue and your bread and butter. How can someone who is professional write something like this about their clients on a social networking site?
For your kind information, we corporate HR never lie to anyone. If the position is on hold, we tell the truth. Moreover, the position goes on hold mainly because of the consultants. Why? I will tell you. When we get the requirement from the technical department, they want the position to be closed within a time frame. We pass on the requirements to the consultant with the proper JD and explain to them the time frame. Firstly, they will send some scrap and will waste at least three to four days, which is beyond the time frame. Finally, when they know what exactly they need to search, the position goes on hold as the technical department does not require anyone since the project is being completed.
Apart from this, instead of supporting the client, the consultant tries to support the candidates and forces us to increase the package, which is not under our budget. To hide their incapabilities, they say it's hard to find a candidate with xyz package and xyz skills and later on will say that we have sent numerous profiles before.
So, the profiles they send and are in our database are actually scrap and we cannot use them in the future. I don't understand why the consultant cannot train their recruiters to send some good profiles as per the JD within the TAT. Now, that's a SHAME.
So, now stop complaining about corporate HR and go and do some work, "As it says action speaks louder than voice."
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your views. But I wish you had read all the posts by me carefully before posting your opinions. You have given a knee-jerk reaction like so many others :(
The complaint is against the Bad HR practices & Bad Corporate professionals. I am assuming you are good so you don't need to defend the Bad Corp HR. You may give us some ideas on how to deal with Bad Corp HR, like Asha has tried to help.
Good HR Associates.
Mousumi kakoty said: "Good HR Associates. This is how you address your company, right? But I cannot see any good neither in your language nor in your behavior. The way you write, it seems your company possesses zero professionalism. Before writing such things about corporate HR, I think you forgot that these are your clients from where you get your revenue and your bread and butter. How can someone who is professional write something like this about their clients on a social networking site?
For your kind information, we corporate HR never lie to anyone. If the position is on hold, we tell the truth. Moreover, the position goes on hold mainly because of the consultants. Why? I will tell you. When we get the requirement from the technical department, they want the position to be closed within a time frame. We pass on the requirements to the consultant with the proper JD and explain to them the time frame. Firstly, they will send some scrap and will waste at least three to four days, which is beyond the time frame. Finally, when they know what exactly they need to search, the position goes on hold as the technical department does not require anyone since the project is being completed.
Apart from this, instead of supporting the client, the consultant tries to support the candidates and forces us to increase the package, which is not under our budget. To hide their incapabilities, they say it's hard to find a candidate with xyz package and xyz skills and later on will say that we have sent numerous profiles before.
So, the profiles they send and are in our database are actually scrap and we cannot use them in the future. I don't understand why the consultant cannot train their recruiters to send some good profiles as per the JD within the TAT. Now, that's a SHAME.
So, now stop complaining about corporate HR and go and do some work, "As it says action speaks louder than voice."
From India, Chandigarh
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Hi,
This is a typical situation, and you need to handle it diplomatically. You can explain to HR that you have been in touch with the candidate and convinced him for your requirement.
I had a very bad experience with one of the CMM Level 5 clients in India. The HR always used to tell me it was a duplicate profile. One day, I downloaded a profile from Naukri, changed it to my name, and they still replied that it was a duplicate profile. After 2 hours, I received a call from that company for discussions on that CV. Later, I informed them that I would not work for their company, and the HR was fired because of various instances.
From India, New Delhi
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This is a typical situation, and you need to handle it diplomatically. You can explain to HR that you have been in touch with the candidate and convinced him for your requirement.
I had a very bad experience with one of the CMM Level 5 clients in India. The HR always used to tell me it was a duplicate profile. One day, I downloaded a profile from Naukri, changed it to my name, and they still replied that it was a duplicate profile. After 2 hours, I received a call from that company for discussions on that CV. Later, I informed them that I would not work for their company, and the HR was fired because of various instances.
From India, New Delhi
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Dear Sir,
Why are you looking at only one side of the coin? We have to consider both sides, right? In my personal experience, some executives appointed through consultants end up having interviews arranged for our employees with different clients after a short period. It's easy for them as they have access to the database and know where these candidates are currently employed. Instead of accusing corporate managers, I suggest maintaining follow-ups with clients or even contacting the candidates if needed.
Regards,
Raghavendra
Dear HR Managers/Executives,
You'll agree and believe that positions/job openings are sent to consultants after careful consideration by Corporate Managers, including HR managers, taking into account manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, and more.
A common practice by corporate HR is to put the position ON HOLD after receiving a good number of profiles from consultants. This often leads to consultants being misled with reasons like internal restructuring or changes in hierarchy, which are claimed to be beyond their control.
"Position ON HOLD" essentially means, "Thank you, consultants, we now have enough CVs to work with and contact candidates on our own later!"
This scenario occurs frequently with many corporate clients, which is a disgrace to the HR fraternity. Should we then assume that corporate HR is incompetent in forecasting their HR needs? Are they unaware of internal changes within their own organizations? If they keep altering their requirements, does that not indicate a lack of clarity on what they truly seek?
It's all a facade. It's evident that they are building their own candidate database/pipeline.
To the HR Manager/Executive: Please refrain from deception and dishonesty towards consultants. Such actions equate to stealing the hard-earned efforts of others.
Shame on such practices!
Sincerely,
Good HR Associates
From India, Bangalore
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Why are you looking at only one side of the coin? We have to consider both sides, right? In my personal experience, some executives appointed through consultants end up having interviews arranged for our employees with different clients after a short period. It's easy for them as they have access to the database and know where these candidates are currently employed. Instead of accusing corporate managers, I suggest maintaining follow-ups with clients or even contacting the candidates if needed.
Regards,
Raghavendra
Dear HR Managers/Executives,
You'll agree and believe that positions/job openings are sent to consultants after careful consideration by Corporate Managers, including HR managers, taking into account manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, and more.
A common practice by corporate HR is to put the position ON HOLD after receiving a good number of profiles from consultants. This often leads to consultants being misled with reasons like internal restructuring or changes in hierarchy, which are claimed to be beyond their control.
"Position ON HOLD" essentially means, "Thank you, consultants, we now have enough CVs to work with and contact candidates on our own later!"
This scenario occurs frequently with many corporate clients, which is a disgrace to the HR fraternity. Should we then assume that corporate HR is incompetent in forecasting their HR needs? Are they unaware of internal changes within their own organizations? If they keep altering their requirements, does that not indicate a lack of clarity on what they truly seek?
It's all a facade. It's evident that they are building their own candidate database/pipeline.
To the HR Manager/Executive: Please refrain from deception and dishonesty towards consultants. Such actions equate to stealing the hard-earned efforts of others.
Shame on such practices!
Sincerely,
Good HR Associates
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Pschakrapani,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. This was an eye-opener! I would request others to share more such experiences in this thread, as well as remedial measures we can take as consultants to avoid exploitation.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thank you so much for sharing your experience. This was an eye-opener! I would request others to share more such experiences in this thread, as well as remedial measures we can take as consultants to avoid exploitation.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Raghvendra,
I am assuming that you are a Good Corp HR. The shame is on Bad Corp HR who exploit the consultants, cheat them, use them to their advantage. If you are good with consultants, please keep it up. If the consultant is Bad, I will strongly recommend you immediately dump him, blacklist him, and expose his name on this forum.
Good HR Associates
Dear Sir,
Why are you looking at one side of the coin? We have to look at both sides of the coin, right? In my personal experience, some executives appointed through the consultant, after a short period, the same consultant arranges interviews for our employees with different clients. It's easy for them as they have the database and know where these candidates are working. Do not shame Corporate Managers. Instead, I will give a good suggestion – keep following up with clients, and if required, contact candidates as well.
Regards,
Raghavendra
Dear HR Managers / Executives,
You'll agree and believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after deliberation by Corporate Managers, including the HR managers, and after due consideration of manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position ON HOLD after receiving a good number of profiles from consultants. They cheat the consultants of their hard work by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame excuses "which are outside their control."
Position "ON HOLD" means, "Thank you, foolish consultants, now we have enough CV's to play around with and contact on our own later!"
This happens repeatedly with many corporate clients. It's a shame on the HR Fraternity. Should I believe that corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is happening in their own companies? If they keep changing their requirements, are they not competent enough to know what they are looking for? This is all hogwash. We know they are creating their own database / pipeline of candidates.
Mr. HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying and cheating the consultants. I equate this to stealing somebody's fruits of labor and hard work. Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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I am assuming that you are a Good Corp HR. The shame is on Bad Corp HR who exploit the consultants, cheat them, use them to their advantage. If you are good with consultants, please keep it up. If the consultant is Bad, I will strongly recommend you immediately dump him, blacklist him, and expose his name on this forum.
Good HR Associates
Dear Sir,
Why are you looking at one side of the coin? We have to look at both sides of the coin, right? In my personal experience, some executives appointed through the consultant, after a short period, the same consultant arranges interviews for our employees with different clients. It's easy for them as they have the database and know where these candidates are working. Do not shame Corporate Managers. Instead, I will give a good suggestion – keep following up with clients, and if required, contact candidates as well.
Regards,
Raghavendra
Dear HR Managers / Executives,
You'll agree and believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after deliberation by Corporate Managers, including the HR managers, and after due consideration of manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position ON HOLD after receiving a good number of profiles from consultants. They cheat the consultants of their hard work by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame excuses "which are outside their control."
Position "ON HOLD" means, "Thank you, foolish consultants, now we have enough CV's to play around with and contact on our own later!"
This happens repeatedly with many corporate clients. It's a shame on the HR Fraternity. Should I believe that corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is happening in their own companies? If they keep changing their requirements, are they not competent enough to know what they are looking for? This is all hogwash. We know they are creating their own database / pipeline of candidates.
Mr. HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying and cheating the consultants. I equate this to stealing somebody's fruits of labor and hard work. Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thank you, Shabz.
It is good to find that these 'churnings' are resulting in a few good suggestions. I request members to contribute with their opinions and experiences. The subject matter is something that has not been explored, discussed, or written about in detail earlier, anywhere. It will add to every HR practitioner's knowledge base and skills repertoire.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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It is good to find that these 'churnings' are resulting in a few good suggestions. I request members to contribute with their opinions and experiences. The subject matter is something that has not been explored, discussed, or written about in detail earlier, anywhere. It will add to every HR practitioner's knowledge base and skills repertoire.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Hello everyone, I am quite new to CiteHR and it's really great to see good suggestions and experience sharing from all involved.
As with everyone else, this issue has happened to us multiple times, and the only thing that helped mitigate the risk of losing candidates to corporate HR is to proactively develop a strong rapport with the candidates and stay in regular touch with them. This way, even if the candidate is contacted directly and applies, he/she keeps us in the loop, and we can contact the HR once the process is over.
Also, if there are multiple openings for the same positions, please ensure that your shortlisted candidate gives you a reference if they know someone else who would fit the job requirements. Whether you take this reference or not, corporate HR will definitely ask for references from your candidate when he/she is shortlisted or offered the position.
Lahar Tahbildar
From India, Bangalore
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As with everyone else, this issue has happened to us multiple times, and the only thing that helped mitigate the risk of losing candidates to corporate HR is to proactively develop a strong rapport with the candidates and stay in regular touch with them. This way, even if the candidate is contacted directly and applies, he/she keeps us in the loop, and we can contact the HR once the process is over.
Also, if there are multiple openings for the same positions, please ensure that your shortlisted candidate gives you a reference if they know someone else who would fit the job requirements. Whether you take this reference or not, corporate HR will definitely ask for references from your candidate when he/she is shortlisted or offered the position.
Lahar Tahbildar
From India, Bangalore
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Hi,
Really interesting discussion, got to see it now only.
Well,
It is such a situation which has 3 entities in play: Corporate, Consultant, and candidate. Now, each of these 3 entities has, as representatives, one common creature called "Human" - and you know 'to err is human', it's all a play of interests, fears, temptations, etc. We can, at best, discuss various examples, cases, situations on this particular topic just to enlighten and get enlightened, but after all this, everyone will have as a takeaway only one thing - We need to act based on the situation and can't generalize...
That is why working with people, for people, makes it such an interesting and challenging profession (HR - Corporate or consultant).
Thanks,
Geeta
From Korea, Seoul
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Really interesting discussion, got to see it now only.
Well,
It is such a situation which has 3 entities in play: Corporate, Consultant, and candidate. Now, each of these 3 entities has, as representatives, one common creature called "Human" - and you know 'to err is human', it's all a play of interests, fears, temptations, etc. We can, at best, discuss various examples, cases, situations on this particular topic just to enlighten and get enlightened, but after all this, everyone will have as a takeaway only one thing - We need to act based on the situation and can't generalize...
That is why working with people, for people, makes it such an interesting and challenging profession (HR - Corporate or consultant).
Thanks,
Geeta
From Korea, Seoul
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Dear Friends,
It would be interesting to know from Corp HR the time frames they have internally to fill up NEW positions. I understand Replacement positions would be having a tighter time frame but New positions for expansion plans, new projects, etc., may have more time.
I want to understand how much in advance the senior HR managers start planning and release the openings to consultants. Also, have they done a thorough job analysis and come to a written JD & Candidate profile with budgets keeping in mind the prevailing market demand & supply scenario (in terms of availability of Talent), competitors, location of industry, etc. It would help reworks on JD's and afterthoughts on what exactly they are looking for.
A whole lot of pain can be saved if proper planning is done by the Senior Management along with the Senior HR managers.
Someone had mentioned about the whims & fancies of the senior Management (C Level) during the hiring process. I guess it would again be the job of the Senior HR manager to handle their Internal customer to smoothen the entire hiring process and in turn create a harmonious environment between various stakeholders - Company (as an organization), Senior management, Senior HR managers, HR Executives/recruiters & finally Consultants.
As I understand the Senior HR Managers (GM/VP Level) need to play a critical role.
With all due respect, someone please tell me they ARE doing what they are supposed to be doing!!! We consultants need to understand how the Senior HR managers are contributing / affecting the entire hiring process and in turn Client/consultant relations.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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It would be interesting to know from Corp HR the time frames they have internally to fill up NEW positions. I understand Replacement positions would be having a tighter time frame but New positions for expansion plans, new projects, etc., may have more time.
I want to understand how much in advance the senior HR managers start planning and release the openings to consultants. Also, have they done a thorough job analysis and come to a written JD & Candidate profile with budgets keeping in mind the prevailing market demand & supply scenario (in terms of availability of Talent), competitors, location of industry, etc. It would help reworks on JD's and afterthoughts on what exactly they are looking for.
A whole lot of pain can be saved if proper planning is done by the Senior Management along with the Senior HR managers.
Someone had mentioned about the whims & fancies of the senior Management (C Level) during the hiring process. I guess it would again be the job of the Senior HR manager to handle their Internal customer to smoothen the entire hiring process and in turn create a harmonious environment between various stakeholders - Company (as an organization), Senior management, Senior HR managers, HR Executives/recruiters & finally Consultants.
As I understand the Senior HR Managers (GM/VP Level) need to play a critical role.
With all due respect, someone please tell me they ARE doing what they are supposed to be doing!!! We consultants need to understand how the Senior HR managers are contributing / affecting the entire hiring process and in turn Client/consultant relations.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Well, after reading all the messages from Ash, GHA, and Raj, I agree that it does happen both ways. Sometimes HR executives also play around, but again, not necessarily all HR professionals are like that. It all depends on the situation. I agree with Raj that consultants do not do their homework properly on the mandates; they just keep forwarding profiles. In fact, Corporate HR spends a lot of time going through them. But again, we cannot generalize about all consultants. However, in my 10 years in this field, I have seen that most of them do a postman kind of job. Sometimes, I feel the problem is that after briefing the client manager, when they go back to their office, they put junior guys to source CVs without proper briefing. So, there it goes—communication gap. They keep coming back to us with so many clarifications which I would have already given to the client manager. So now, I send them an email with all the points so that they can go through it for ready reference.
I was handling a senior position replacement sometime back. After three months of intense search and various interview rounds, one candidate was shortlisted for the final round. Unfortunately, there were many changes in that last week, and this position went on hold. The consultant was very disappointed. I agree sometimes it happens, but HR does not do it intentionally as we are only facilitating the business leaders. So, it all depends on the business. Many times, I have noticed that hiring managers will never be happy with the CVs; they always want to see more and more. It's not possible to achieve 100% fitment.
When we have multiple vendors, it always happens that we receive the same CV from two or three different vendors. So, I consider it from whomever I have received it from first.
From India, Bangalore
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I was handling a senior position replacement sometime back. After three months of intense search and various interview rounds, one candidate was shortlisted for the final round. Unfortunately, there were many changes in that last week, and this position went on hold. The consultant was very disappointed. I agree sometimes it happens, but HR does not do it intentionally as we are only facilitating the business leaders. So, it all depends on the business. Many times, I have noticed that hiring managers will never be happy with the CVs; they always want to see more and more. It's not possible to achieve 100% fitment.
When we have multiple vendors, it always happens that we receive the same CV from two or three different vendors. So, I consider it from whomever I have received it from first.
From India, Bangalore
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Dear GHA,
I somewhat agree with your points. I have worked with a very large database, conducted massive recruitments, and handled a big pool of consultants simultaneously. However, the grass is always greener on the other side... Do you agree with this?
I don't because the truth is, being an HR professional, sometimes you are a victim of such situations as well. Despite having your policies and procedures in place, there is always a set of employees in the organization who are not open to understanding the technicalities behind the recruitment process.
The finalization of the job does not lie in the hands of HR but in the hands of the technical team.
So, the ball is not always in our court.
Openings that come to an HR table need to be prioritized, and based on the requirements, they adjust their demands, especially when dealing with higher authorities in the organization.
Even during my tenure, consultants provided me with similar feedback. To overcome this issue, let me share with you what I did:
1) Asked for support to maintain a tracker to identify which consultant's profile came in first. This helped to some extent, but during massive recruitment, the model failed.
2) Eventually, I decided to avoid this conflict by asking consultants to send profiles without contact details. Once a profile was shortlisted, I would have the consultant line them up.
I do not deny that sometimes these practices are intentionally carried out in organizations. Being straightforward with customers can lead to loss of leads and business at times.
As straight trees are cut first, my advice is to be a little diplomatic in such cases and devise strategies to streamline the process.
From India, Mumbai
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I somewhat agree with your points. I have worked with a very large database, conducted massive recruitments, and handled a big pool of consultants simultaneously. However, the grass is always greener on the other side... Do you agree with this?
I don't because the truth is, being an HR professional, sometimes you are a victim of such situations as well. Despite having your policies and procedures in place, there is always a set of employees in the organization who are not open to understanding the technicalities behind the recruitment process.
The finalization of the job does not lie in the hands of HR but in the hands of the technical team.
So, the ball is not always in our court.
Openings that come to an HR table need to be prioritized, and based on the requirements, they adjust their demands, especially when dealing with higher authorities in the organization.
Even during my tenure, consultants provided me with similar feedback. To overcome this issue, let me share with you what I did:
1) Asked for support to maintain a tracker to identify which consultant's profile came in first. This helped to some extent, but during massive recruitment, the model failed.
2) Eventually, I decided to avoid this conflict by asking consultants to send profiles without contact details. Once a profile was shortlisted, I would have the consultant line them up.
I do not deny that sometimes these practices are intentionally carried out in organizations. Being straightforward with customers can lead to loss of leads and business at times.
As straight trees are cut first, my advice is to be a little diplomatic in such cases and devise strategies to streamline the process.
From India, Mumbai
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While sending CVs to the recruitment manager or client, you are supposed to hide the telephone number and address of the candidates. This will help prevent consultants from being cheated, as the HR manager will not find the candidate's contact details in the CVs and cannot make direct contact with them.
Regards,
NSH
From India, Delhi
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Regards,
NSH
From India, Delhi
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Mr. Raj Kumar Hansdah,
Thank you for your views & comment …. I agree “experience does have its uses”.
Experience brings lot of things together with it.
That’s why I didn’t reply GHA’s comment about me & kept patience.
I would say it was not the real GHA made that comment but was just his/her immediate reaction. Probably his/her such reaction might be as result out of many of his past, recent experiences, the opposite views in the thread, some proposition of hurted self ego (read as self respect).
However, you have highlighted the old matter here. I would add; GHA should share his views, beliefs or reply to anyone without being arrogant. Also, he needs to work on his detail orientation skill ( GHA, Please wait for a while, control your reaction )
May be GHA is the smartest one around. Through such controversial discussion he/she is collecting our views and may be soon publish a BOOK on it.
GHA, rather than just visiting first page of the website you could go through the whole website and it’s extended links.
Yeah, the company is existing and it’s one of the largest companies in this country. It is a Group Company having more than 25 sub companies.
One of them is Binzagr Unilever, equivalent to HLL, India (Hindustan lever). The company is the only producer or supplier of all the known cosmetic products and other FMGC products here.
So this is just one segment. There are other segments too where the company is securing good percentage of market share.
You are right we need to update our website, but does it really need priority action?
One should not always rely or judge based on website.
One individual can fake through eye-catching website, show they run large consulting firms. Believe me there are consultants (from all sector) do practice it.
Ohhh!!! None of the country I have been among the mentioned in your posting. Wrong Guessing
To All, Sorry I divereted the discussion for a while.
From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
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Thank you for your views & comment …. I agree “experience does have its uses”.
Experience brings lot of things together with it.
That’s why I didn’t reply GHA’s comment about me & kept patience.
I would say it was not the real GHA made that comment but was just his/her immediate reaction. Probably his/her such reaction might be as result out of many of his past, recent experiences, the opposite views in the thread, some proposition of hurted self ego (read as self respect).
However, you have highlighted the old matter here. I would add; GHA should share his views, beliefs or reply to anyone without being arrogant. Also, he needs to work on his detail orientation skill ( GHA, Please wait for a while, control your reaction )
May be GHA is the smartest one around. Through such controversial discussion he/she is collecting our views and may be soon publish a BOOK on it.
GHA, rather than just visiting first page of the website you could go through the whole website and it’s extended links.
Yeah, the company is existing and it’s one of the largest companies in this country. It is a Group Company having more than 25 sub companies.
One of them is Binzagr Unilever, equivalent to HLL, India (Hindustan lever). The company is the only producer or supplier of all the known cosmetic products and other FMGC products here.
So this is just one segment. There are other segments too where the company is securing good percentage of market share.
You are right we need to update our website, but does it really need priority action?
One should not always rely or judge based on website.
One individual can fake through eye-catching website, show they run large consulting firms. Believe me there are consultants (from all sector) do practice it.
Ohhh!!! None of the country I have been among the mentioned in your posting. Wrong Guessing
To All, Sorry I divereted the discussion for a while.
From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
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Dear Pankhuri
Thanks for your post. Excellent views!
...STRAIGHT TREES ARE CUT FIRST… how True!!
All these years we have been trying to find out ways and means to get a fair deal, but I guess you as well as others have been mentioning about the limitations they themselves face in theri organizations. That is fine with us.
Yes, we do need to find ways of dealing with the smart pants in the corp HR without ruffling their feathers.
One way could be to decide on a deadline to close the position and discuss in detail the urgency of closing the position and likelyhood of it being put on hold. This way we can pre empt them into making a fool of us by collection profiles & putting the position on hold.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post. Excellent views!
...STRAIGHT TREES ARE CUT FIRST… how True!!
All these years we have been trying to find out ways and means to get a fair deal, but I guess you as well as others have been mentioning about the limitations they themselves face in theri organizations. That is fine with us.
Yes, we do need to find ways of dealing with the smart pants in the corp HR without ruffling their feathers.
One way could be to decide on a deadline to close the position and discuss in detail the urgency of closing the position and likelyhood of it being put on hold. This way we can pre empt them into making a fool of us by collection profiles & putting the position on hold.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear,
Thanks for your post. Of course, that is a common practice, and we do that with all our clients. But as I said earlier in a post, even without the Name & contact details, the CV can be fished out from portals using some appropriate keywords. It is easy & unethical. All the Bad Corp HR do this all the time.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post. Of course, that is a common practice, and we do that with all our clients. But as I said earlier in a post, even without the Name & contact details, the CV can be fished out from portals using some appropriate keywords. It is easy & unethical. All the Bad Corp HR do this all the time.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Amish
What a transformation!! I apologize. My earlier impression was wrong about you.
With this post and your posts else where ( ..fake interviews..) you have come across as pretty mature and self effacing person.
LOL.....no..no.. I am not planning to write a book! Just looking for answers to the questions & frustrations we face on a daily basis dealing with Bad Corp HR.
But it is always a learning expereince interacting with thinking professionals. 15 Years of diverse experience ..and I still learn something every day.
Today I learnt..first impressions may be wrong :icon1:
Good Hr Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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What a transformation!! I apologize. My earlier impression was wrong about you.
With this post and your posts else where ( ..fake interviews..) you have come across as pretty mature and self effacing person.
LOL.....no..no.. I am not planning to write a book! Just looking for answers to the questions & frustrations we face on a daily basis dealing with Bad Corp HR.
But it is always a learning expereince interacting with thinking professionals. 15 Years of diverse experience ..and I still learn something every day.
Today I learnt..first impressions may be wrong :icon1:
Good Hr Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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