Jeroo Chandiok
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Unusual_indu
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Mukul Mathur
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Sangeet
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Janavi_rane
Sr. Manager-hr & Administration
Raghudeepala
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Ryan
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Thread Started by #Sari

HI All,
Could some one clear me the difference between delegating and dumping..
i hear many complaints from the employees that the reporting head (PL/ PM) are rude to them, shout at times, dump frustration.
Iam trying to understand if there is any better way of dealing with the subordinates to get the work done with in specified time, why cant one give instructions, instead giving orders.
i have only been counselling employees about work pressure, tasks, and trying to acknowledge them with some surprises like taking them for a movie/ giving them lunch parties.
Senior staff are here when the company was born, they might not like being counselled, how do you think i should convey the grievance of employees to them.
21st May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
Hi,
Putting appropriate Policy in place would be ideal. If you already have Employee Handbook, please make sure that these issues/ employee grievances/problems are addressed.
Thank you.
Satya
Hyderabad
22nd May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
Hi Sari,

Always you have these kind of problem between the Manager and suboridnate.
Cause for these kind of Problem may be:
1.Miscommuncation between the manager and subordinate
2.Not clear of the goal
3.Manager is not capable to handle the team
4.Subordinate not reward or regonised properly.

This issue can be resolved
1. Set the goals and put in paper.
2. Communicate clearly what is wanted from the Subordinate.
3. Reward the Team wholly inculding the Manager when the work is done and spread it across the Company.
4.Send the Manager for Training
5. HR should discuss with the Manager about the team problems.
6. Have periodical meeting for not more than half-hour to disscuss the project problem and progress
7.cultivate team sprite


When the work and Time frame is set clearly and communicated properly there is no dumping of work.

22nd May 2008 From India, Varkkallai
Thanks ksk and sangeeth for your comments on this...having a policy in the handbook is not able to change the attitude of the seniors, inspite of bringing this to the notice of my higher management not much has been done so far, as they feel seniors are here from quite sometime, cannot confront them, as we donot have alternative resource not able to handle the senior staff's attitude towards their subordinates, they donot have proper resource planning, they are poor in time mangement, though tried various ways to train them, not much seemed fruitful.....
22nd May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
I agree with Satya, the Top Management has to decide and partcipate in this issue.
Being in for long time doesnt mean they are out of companies rules.but it is diffcult to make them understand it.
Change management is the right thing that you company has to start.
23rd May 2008 From India, Varkkallai
Hi Sari,
Try swaping the role once a month at least! Sometimes words fails or fall on deaf ears, but certain actions can make a breakthru.
Another try cab be all should assemble & every one will tell what they have done first time in that month/ week OR anything new they have learnt / notice outside work.
regards,
Janavi
23rd May 2008 From India, Pune
Thanks again dear friends for your valuable time and suggestions..
swapping may not be possible with the limited projects and resources, positions are getting stagnated..and the environment is getting affected, due to which whole system is getting polluted....do you think firing them would suffice the issue by any chance.....
23rd May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
Hi Sari,

How are you doing?

The solution is quite simple, You dont have to go for counselling the senior employees as that never works, the ego always comes into picture.

Please issue a format to all the employees also make it mandatory to respond even if it is with a no comment, It can be adopted as a company policy, where a list of all the employees are mentioned

Sr. No Name Pro Con Department

1. a
2. b

etc..

and make two columns term it as pro or con.....ask every employee to comment on the rest of the people. Seniors as well as Juniors also make a policy that this document will be available only to the HR manager or someone responsible. Then forward a letter to each employee citing his pros and cons without mentioning the name of the person who has commented. This procedure can be repeated every two months. Also the same can be used during appraisal.

The above can be limited to department.

I believe the above solution should work.

The HR here will have to do a bit or work. Analysing each document, you can also opt for a web based forum so that it can be analysed with ease.

The above will never hurt anyones ego..name it as a improvement process to make your company a better place to work for everybody. I still am not able to comprehend how this can go wrong. In case any comments do provide.

Regards,

AJ
23rd May 2008 From India, Thana
Dear friend AJ,
greetings!
Thank you so much for your valuable inputs..
Ours is a small firm with 70 employees, out of which 25 are from someother dept, and 5 from admin, 3 from sales, 3 from supporting team, and the rest is the dept which has complaints against their senior staff 2PMs, 2PLs each team has 10-12 employees underthem. I have conducted a survey, to make it anonymous and express their concerns, not many came forward as they were worried that the seniors would point them out..though few could write clearly stating their issues, seniors only ignored infact after that survey (within 3months) 7 people have put down their papers saying that nothing can be done about them.........
infact i spoke to my CEO clearly stating that one of the seniors who is toughnut to fire him....but nothing has been done so far......
please suggest what to be done in this scenario.....
23rd May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
Hi Sari,
Since you have already tried the same.
I suggest you to invite a motivational speaker or trainer even a person with industrial psychology experince. Let the training take place at a neutral place not at your office.
Hire a good trainer let him know about the problems, ensure that when the training is going on no HR person or senior employee is present at the time, when its for juniors.
Do the same with seniors, ensure that no juniors or HR is present.
Then have a combined training.
The best part is that you have the list of problems and hence let a third person bring to their notice. generally its noticed that people listen to the third person than anyone in the company. Firing is not a very good option.
In case if you want help with trainers let me know, cause a friend of mine had been to such a training and it did help their organization, I could get you the name and contact number of the same person in couple of days.
Regards,
AJ
23rd May 2008 From India, Thana
Hi Sari

Greetings for the day!

Sorry for the delayed reply .Already senior members of this forum have come up with some wonderful suggestion .I would just like to add a few points to it.

The senior members of the organisation are always tough to handle specially when the Hrt person has joined after them :).They feel that a new person is trying to invade in my territory.

I will suggest you something, have a session with the senior employees and try to find out their work realated issues. Iam sure at first they will be reluctant to share their problems with you,it will take some time ,be freindly with them.Try to sort out their issues and gain their confidence so that they accept you as a apart of the management team. Once this is done I guess it will be easier fior you to discuss the problems the juniors are facing .

We always have the option of firing an employee but firing a senior member can be a costly decision for management because

1 we usually have a lot of dependency on senior memebers

2. they are trained resources and hence are difficult to be replaced

I hope my post makes sense to you
23rd May 2008 From India, Pune
Thank you so much AJ, it sounds good. I shall definitely try getting a trainer to address this issue. :)
Thank you so much indu, but you know what we all are very good friends, infact share various personal issues, but when it comes my peeping in their technical territory they always make me a stranger, donot entertain my suggestions/requests. :(
yeah what you said is absolutely true, firing would be last option...
thank you all for sharing your views :)
23rd May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
Hi Sari !
You can try following:
Have more and more clear job responsibilities arrived at. The JR for the subordinate to be discussed by the supervisor, the employee and HR jointly and supervisor to provide clarity about 'how' part of JR in presence of HR. Make it an open communication so that subordinate can seek clarification from supervisor.
Have more and more informal meetings aimed at hobbies of employees.
Have team building exercises aimed at improving coordination and teamspirit.
For us to advise is very easy. I dont know how difficult it will be for you to implement. :)
Firing is definitely not the desired option :)
- Hiten
23rd May 2008 From India, New Delhi
Hi,
Your problem seems to be an attitude problem among the top management. And it is quiet common.
In case you want to convey a strong message in a suttle manner then start an e-magazine or an internal blog site where in all employees and log in and put in their feelings.
In e-magazine you can ask empoyees to write articles. You can also put in some articles which will convey the message that want to float.
Or the most simple way is to write an open email to all where in you attach certain good article on Leadership, The art of Delegating, The art of giving feedback etc.
I am sure this will help you in passing on the message to your management in a suttle manner.
Try them and do let me know if it worked.
regards
Kunal.
23rd May 2008 From India, Mumbai
HI Hiten,
Greetings!
How are you?
job desriptions and KRAs are already in place, but being a small firm, the employees are expected to do multitasking so most of the time they do more than what they are supposed, but as you suggested about transparency in jr has not been focussed much, i shall work on it.
I was missing your comment, thank you so much :)
23rd May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
Hi Sari,Every orgnization faces this problem.The best way to deal with it is make the employee feel responsible.They should feel their work is very very important.When they are given the extra responsibility it should be coveyed to them in such a manner that they feel this a reward for their good work and they should feel more important that this work was given to them and not to others.One short story.3 people were building a bridge first one was ask what were you doing he replied lifting bricks,2nd one was asked the same question he replied making money,3rd one was asked the same question he replied I am building the best bridge in the world.It's all about how one looks towards his job.Its true its very difficult to counsel the senoir and the old Employees however what you can do is Send them some presentations onmotivational, work related or what ever you think they need to be trained on.So that they can go through it always ask for acknowledgement and suggestions from them so they feel important and go through it.Its an indirect way of training and counselling.RegardsKaushal
23rd May 2008 From India, Delhi
Periodical Meetings,Establish department systems & procedures,Role clarity for all the positions,Job rotation,Outbound training ,picnics ,family day celebrations ,training on managerial abilities , meditation etc., can help to certain extent.
24th May 2008 From India, Madras
I don't think Firing would be easy as it may seem from far..They are in the system for a long time and must be having their links with the top layer too.

You can organize for a leadership programme and could name as "Lead the Leaders" . The programme contain modules on leadership skills, Physche/Expectations of an OLD employee VS New Employee, Impact of bad leaders on the organization as whole, etc. But you MUST ensure that the person conducting this programme should be a VERY SENIOR GUY with loads of experience who MUST dig into their soul and make them feel guilty of what they are doing),

After such programme, you need to take periodic feedback and review it.

Also, If above not possible, I have a very different suggestion to force them to look for better opportunity..can't say whether it would work or not..

If you any of your friends working in recruitment consultants, circulate their (your senior's) nos with them and ask them to call these guys if they have an opportunity for them. A sophisticated way of weeving them out.

Regards
24th May 2008 From India, Mumbai
Sari,
I would like to state the firing is a big term and should only be exercised when every other means of change has failed or any employee(no matter what grade/ level) has voilated company policy or done any misconduct.
I would like you to sit face to face with 1/2 most senior member of the organisation and share your thoughts with them.Get them to understand the consequence of the current state. It would be best to share some employee concerns with them(ensure confidentiality). Share your detailed plan with them and ask for there support , help and time from them.Then make a detalied plan with them, involve these leaders in acitivites let employee see the changes are coming form top mangement. Ensure you focus on 1-2 issue (most critical) at any given time and set a timeline to see & measure effectiveness.
Let me know if you want any help from me.
Regards
Yasha
24th May 2008 From United States, Minneapolis
Hi Sari,

According to me, your issue seems to lie in the kind of people you hire.

The dumping disease as I call it, is not curable in the short run. As someone said, it could be an attitude problem of the person - and it generally is.

Attitude problem is difficult to define. In my understanding, it would arise when a person gets his/her way by following a set path (screaming / shouting / abusing) at others. Since the strategy has worked without much problem in the past, the person is definitely going to use it again and again, primarily because there has been no resistance. Secondly, when resistance is met, the shouting etc becomes louder / stronger in a bid to achieve their end. This obviously leads to bad environment at the workplace.

So your solutions :
1) Track the tenure of employees who work under such people. Do exit interviews at the time of leaving to determine push / pull factors for the exit. At the end of a quarter or 6 months, publish the results to top management, including the person's boss.
2) Offer indirect counselling. It is entirely possible that the person concerned is mimicking behaviour of significant adults from their childhood. So make them aware that shouting, etc, are not the only options to get jobs done.
3) Additionally, you could try a role change for the person where team management is not required and where teamworking is at a minimum level.
4) In your recruitment process, introduce a parameter and appropriate questions to evaluate team working and team management skills. Thus you will ensure that you do not have such people in your organization.

Trust this is helpful. Write in offline if you wish to discuss this further.

Regards

Ryan
24th May 2008 From India, Mumbai
Hi Guys,
I know SARI for quite a while the person who started this query, and she is quite experienced. Hence please limit your comments to alternative solutions or provide solutions after going through the entire post.
Please suggest a solution considering the seniority of the person who has started this thread. What I mean is respect the person's intelligence.
This is not to offend any of you guys who are here to support but to avoid repetation of the same solution over and over again.
Regards,
AJ
24th May 2008 From India, Thana
Hi Sari
1. Give your subordinate in wirting proper responsibilty & authority
2. Always take proper feeback & check time to time whether they have completed their assigned work this will avoid confusion & communication gap
3. Try to be friendly with your subordinate but at the same time make sure they do their work properly.
Slowly develope the feeling of responsibility among the subordinate so that time should come when you do not have to take any follow up they themselve should feel responsible for the assigned job.
But manager should never forget to reward there suordinate for their good job.
Nikhat
24th May 2008 From India, Baleshwar
Dear Sari,
I do not think firing could be the most effective answer to your predicament. Istead try the fininf system.
This couldbe done by designing a point system for the PL & PM where leadership effectivity will be an integral part of their performance.
A decent weightage must be given to this.
You could also start publicising the same in the organisation which will compel the leaders to do something about their leadership.
You could start with an intensive leaderhip programme which will include suggestion & creative inputs for effective leadership.
This would probably be the final attempt & make them aware of the consequences if they dont come around.
Firing will be the ultimate option.
Hope you will be successful next time round.
Keep me posted & I would be glad to help at every stage if required.
Regards
Gogo
26th May 2008 From India, Pune
Hi Sari,
You can never change the attitude of senior management. So its only possible to make the employees understand. Continue counselling them on a positive path so that they feel that the seniors are just putting out their frustrations on them and that the employees work and personal lives should not get affected due to them. Try to implement the concepts of Quality of Work Life.
26th May 2008
Hi Sari,
I may sound too junior to suggest you. But I think, You can have an open house meet. In the begining itself, you can instruct the team that, if you want to get your issue resolved, then pleasebe open & HEALTHY!!
Secondly, you can work out on case to case basis situation.Talk with the sub ordinates & make them understand that why this is happening so!
You are in HR. You have to be a bridge between the departments.
I hope I am on right track :-)
All the Best
Manasi
:-)
26th May 2008 From Japan
Hello Sari:
>... is any better way of dealing with the subordinates to get the work done with in specified time<
Yes.
> why cant one give instructions, instead giving orders.<
Most managers are managers for reasons other than their managerial talent.
>i have only been counselling employees about work pressure, tasks, and trying to acknowledge them with some surprises like taking them for a movie/ giving them lunch parties.<
My boss tried that with our engineering department but he did it only once-- employees need an engaged workday not more fun during non-work time.
>Senior staff are here when the company was born, they might not like being counselled, how do you think i should convey the grievance of employees to them.<
Has the senior staff had the pleasure of a 360 feedback?
Bob Gately

26th May 2008 From United States, Chelsea
No, firing the team member is not a good thing and we should educate the subordinate regarding the importance of the work and we should make him to feel as a responsible person for that work. so, we need to force him for anything.
Regards,
Raghunath Deepala
26th May 2008 From India, Visakhapatnam
Hi Sari,
I am facing a similar problem where the managers feel they are a class apart, they flaunt liberties, break rules and dismiss complaints from team members. My suggestions are taken as interference. I am stuck with this attitude and trying to find ways of addressing it but nothing seems to work as I find the willingness not there in the managers. :wacko:
26th May 2008 From India, Delhi
Often the reason of employees' frustration is not the fact they receive an order to do something but it is the lack of freedom on how to accomplish a task.
It's important sometimes to tell them what to do (your role as a manager executing the strategy of the company), however, leave them the freedom on the how...
26th May 2008
Hi Neena,
Please read my previous post in this thread.
What I would suggest is get a trainer, tell him your problems and name out the employees who have been giving you troubles. Discuss in detail their profiles of course without their knowlege. Arrange a training schedule for the same.
I am sure it will help, Usually what happens is when people become seniors irrespective of being managers or not they have a tendency to turn a deaf ear to anyone junior even from other departments. All this is generally because of insecurity or personal problems at home which they wont be very comfortable discussing with the HR team, its kind of giving away your weakness. Hence if its a third person without any association to your company and if its a one to one discussion it would be easy for them to open up or take advise.
Regards,
AJ
26th May 2008 From India, Thana
Congrats Sari for raising such intresting topic

From my point of view it is perception, whether some one percieves the work as Delegation or dumping, in a win win situation there is no dumping but gaining, that's how the age old management's SWOT speaks about, and is vital, intact the test of time.
A right men must position him self in a right atmosphere, unless he is not authorised for trendsetting, cultural setting and change implementations.
Here is again resistance to change by the Seniors.
Emphasise on the slogan that EVERY ONE NEEDS TRAINING
and send all the seniors for diffrent selected modules of training, we have witnessed that, these old seniors have literally cried infront of the trainers that, how was their behaviour with their workmen and peers.
Keep it up your modern management techniqures, soon the mass will follow you.
The days of ORDER or even INSTRUCT are obsolete, you have to strive for every individual working with you, for his goal and the organisation's goal.
Involve yourself with your workmen to get the things done.
26th May 2008 From Saudi Arabia, Al Khobar
Thank you all for your suggestions :)
I am in the process of hiring a trainer to train the staff....
thanks to one and all once again :) :) :) for sharing your wonderful ideas
i shall definitely update you all about whether if had worked or not :)
27th May 2008 From India, Hyderabad
Well, if you can't exercise the obvious solutions mentioned above, at least do one thing.
After instructions have been given from above, write down what you think you have been told in a memo to the higher up, and ask him/her to confirm that this is correct. Say if you do not receive any written instructions to the contrary, you will take it that whatever you have stated in your memo has been approved, and proceed to do exactly what has been stated.
If there is any problem later, you can produce the memo and clear yourself.
Try.
Jeroo
27th May 2008 From India, Mumbai
Hello Sari:
>I am in the process of hiring a trainer to train the staff....<
That is a good first step since managers like to train employees when the employees are less than successful.
Will the managers be trained as well?
If employees are trained more than their supervisors, is that a good thing or bad thing?
Will training be blamed if employees don't respond accordingly?
If employers teach their employees how to behave and the managers don't behave the same way does that encourage cooperation or resentment?
Management often invests in training when their own behavior is the problem.
If you need your job, be careful.
Bob Gately

27th May 2008 From United States, Chelsea
Dear Sari,
Skip level meetings help in the seniors understanding the problems of the subordinates. You can also try open house to device new ways of dealing with the issue. I would suggest you to have a grievance box, the issues that u recieve, can be discussed with a team comprising of the senior people. You can, for the maximum participation from the seniors, call them "the change agents". As the name suggests, they will be responsible to bring in change in the organization. I will think about the issue and revert incase i can think of anything which could be helpful.
Regards,
Avi.
27th May 2008 From India, Bangalore
Hi Bob,

IF I MAY....

Training can be done except for the top management if a notice or a memo can be issued in the office for the same explaining it as an effor to make the workplace a better place.

I generally would opt for aptitude and leadership training than technical.

I recently had the pleasure of coming across such a person who had done a similar training wherein he met with each individual seperately and then formed small groups and then had a big group. It was less of training and more of a discussion.

Results cant be expected immediately but once any individual comes to know about his flaws or shortcomings atleast we can expect him to work on it.

We cant always expect a 100% response from the employees be it a manager or a junior level employee, as well I believe anything done with a good intention and conveyed in a similar manner would never hamper the workplace.

Also making sure that its a comfortable place that the personnel have their training would also help their attitude of attending the same.

Regards,

AJ
27th May 2008 From India, Thana
These are Human Behaviours which one cannot predict.Its maily to do with persons lack of Management or just his/her ego. A Good Manager irequires to be a good Leader .
27th May 2008 From India, Bangalore
Hi Bob,
Naseer here,
Training is a continous phenomeneon, not just limited to any level of heirarchy
As No humanbeing is ideal same is with learning and training, even the trainer does needs the training.
Coming to blame game, in my perview training is INVESTMENT thus deployed cautiously, Blame should go to the " Case study of individual behaviour" to this effect COMPETENCY MAPPING and SUCCESSION PLANNING is must.
28th May 2008 From Saudi Arabia, Al Khobar
Hello,

It appears that this is a sensitive issue: those who perceive they are dumped upon can not or will not address the issue, and allow feelings of helpless and anger distract them from their work.

Seniors, from what you have articulated, perhaps feel they have "earned" the right to pass on work without the type of clear communication Sangeetha has mentioned. The result...the breeding ground for a toxic and passive agressive work culture.

One suggestion might be that the concern for effective delegation be brought up as an "organizational effectiveness issue"; no one person is blamed and targeted.

Find one "champion' within the organization who delegates well to write or communicate about his/her successes and offer a "checklist" for effective delegation. Circulate information of best practice. Raise the issue to a level of importance instead of just a "grumble"

For the " dumpees", I understand their frustration, in my career progression I experienced that from a senior professional. What I learned to do was to say, when I was overwhelmed or just was given to much to do, was the following.

So and So, I am always happy to assist the department meets its objective and goals, however, at this time I have several important tasks on my plate. To take on this additional task will require time and resources, can you guide me and suggest to me how you would like me to re-order my current responsibilies? Something will have to go to a back burner, and I would like your expert guidance on how to make this happen.

Often the task was handled by them or given to soomeone else capable of performing it. I found it to be an effective, clear, and non-confrontational push-back.

What do others thinks?
28th May 2008 From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Hi!
This serves to introduce myself. Am Ben Nyambe an HR Generalist Practitioner employed by Zambia National Building Society aquasi Government Organisation whose main function is to provide housing finance to both corporate & individual customers.
My position is that of Snr Manager HR.
Regards to you all.
Ben
30th May 2008
Dear All,
Straight answer to question of Sari;
Apart from Delegating there are words like Abdicating, Dumping,Allocating...
Abdicating: I have time to do the work but I don't want to do and hence abdicating
Dumping: Since there is a chance of earror /mistakes hence given to subordinate
Allocating: In view of theory of devision of labour work to be distributed among team members
Delegating: After understanding of strength of subordinates job is assigned after having proper discussion,guidennce and proper review on the progress at certain interval.
Hope I am able to clear doubts.
Regards,
ACCHR
30th July 2008 From India, Mumbai
Hello AJ:

>IF I MAY....<

Yes, of course.

>Training can be done except for the top management if a notice or a memo can be issued in the office for the same explaining it as an effort to make the workplace a better place.<

Such a notice does not negate the problem of training employees to be good employees while not training managers to be good managers.

>I generally would opt for aptitude and leadership training than technical.<

Do you mean attitude? How do we train for aptitude?

Who should be trained in leadership first, the employees or the managers?

>I recently had the pleasure of coming across such a person who had done a similar training wherein he met with each individual separately and then formed small groups and then had a big group. It was less of training and more of a discussion.<

Corporate culture has a lot to do with how such events are accepted.

>Results cant be expected immediately but once any individual comes to know about his flaws or shortcomings at least we can expect him to work on it.<

Quite true but if the problem is the supervisor's behavior will we fix the problem by training the direct reports?

>We cant always expect a 100% response from the employees be it a manager or a junior level employee<

I agree.

>... I believe anything done with a good intention and conveyed in a similar manner would never hamper the workplace.<

A bad management decision done with a good intention and conveyed in a similar manner will most definitely hamper the workplace--it happens all too frequently. Good intentions don't undo bad decisions.

>Also making sure that its a comfortable place that the personnel have their training would also help their attitude of attending the same.<

I agree, but it is frustrating to learn the right way to do the job when the supervisor disagrees.
30th July 2008 From United States, Chelsea
Hello Johnny Pinto:

>These are Human Behaviours which one cannot predict.<

Does that mean we are all unpredictable?

>Its mainly to do with persons lack of Management <

If that were true, managers with MBAs would all be excellent managers and we know that is not true.

>or just his/her ego.<

It is their behaviors that gets in their way.

>A Good Manager requires to be a good Leader.<

Managing and leading are two different things and we can be good at one or the other or both or neither. Too many managers are not good at either.
30th July 2008 From United States, Chelsea
Hello naseer:
>Training is a continous phenomenon, not just limited to any level of hierarchy<
We must differentiate between learning on the job and training by the employer.
>As No human being is ideal same is with learning and training, even the trainer does needs the training.<
If the problem is the manager, why do we train the direct reports?
>... in my perview training is INVESTMENT thus deployed cautiously<
I agree.
>Blame should go to the " Case study of individual behavior" to this effect COMPETENCY MAPPING and SUCCESSION PLANNING is must.<
Managers/employers get the employee behaviors they deserve.
30th July 2008 From United States, Chelsea
hi sari,

firing an employee is never a solution.. have an informal conversation with the seniors may be over the lunch and make them feel responsible about takin care of their subordinates.. wen they take steps to identify the greviances of their subordinates they mite understand n alter their behaviour...
31st July 2008
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