Hi all,
I just wanted to share an incident that happened in my company which involved my friend and wanted to ask your opinion: Is the punishment right?
I work in a TIER-1 software company. Two of my friends (a boy and a girl) had a heated conversation which resulted in the boy slapping the girl. This incident took place in the cafeteria. They have known each other for the past 5 years, so the boy apologized, and she let the incident go without making any complaint. However, two associates who were present in the cafeteria reported it to HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write apology letters regarding the incident to avoid punishment. The boy admitted to slapping once, and the girl mentioned that she pinched the boy, leading to the slap. After receiving the letters, they were both asked to leave.
The next day, they were informed that they had been terminated. Is this the right punishment? They only have 10 months of experience. How will they find a job with this termination? They cannot even apply as fresher since they graduated in 2009.
When the girl questioned her termination, HR simply said that she had given a written statement admitting to pinching him, resulting in termination for both her and the boy for slapping her. My seniors and managers believe they have been treated unfairly. Now the girl is at home with her future uncertain.
From India, Madras
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1I just wanted to share an incident that happened in my company which involved my friend and wanted to ask your opinion: Is the punishment right?
I work in a TIER-1 software company. Two of my friends (a boy and a girl) had a heated conversation which resulted in the boy slapping the girl. This incident took place in the cafeteria. They have known each other for the past 5 years, so the boy apologized, and she let the incident go without making any complaint. However, two associates who were present in the cafeteria reported it to HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write apology letters regarding the incident to avoid punishment. The boy admitted to slapping once, and the girl mentioned that she pinched the boy, leading to the slap. After receiving the letters, they were both asked to leave.
The next day, they were informed that they had been terminated. Is this the right punishment? They only have 10 months of experience. How will they find a job with this termination? They cannot even apply as fresher since they graduated in 2009.
When the girl questioned her termination, HR simply said that she had given a written statement admitting to pinching him, resulting in termination for both her and the boy for slapping her. My seniors and managers believe they have been treated unfairly. Now the girl is at home with her future uncertain.
From India, Madras
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What do the standing orders of the company suggest? I don't think that there should be such a harsh punishment. If the apology letter was given, then the management could maybe suspend them for a few days, or some other such punishment could be given. You have also not mentioned whether they were on a contract/outsourced/probation, etc. Please give more details.
Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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They were selected through oncampus and were in probation period.
This is what they have mentioned in thier code of ethics document
We must never tolerate:
Discriminatory conduct, abuse of authority, or harassment of any kind, including that of a sexual nature. We must
also refrain from making jokes, slurs or other remarks that are about race, color, religion, gender, age, national or
ethnic origin, sexual orientation, martial status, disabilities or veteran’s status or are of a sexual nature that can
encourage or create an offensive or hostile environment.
Implicit or explicit verbal threats, intimidation or violence.
both of thier managers and senior associates spoke in favour of them and asked the HR to warn them
But in order to prove thier authority over managers they took it as a ego clash and spoiled 2 people lifes.this is what my manager told.since HR rules all the policies managers were helpless in this matter.
Both of them got appreciation from thier managers in very short time compared to thier fellow batch students.infact that guy worked from morning to next day morning to fix a critical issue for that he got appreciation from many seniors associates.
From India, Madras
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This is what they have mentioned in thier code of ethics document
We must never tolerate:
Discriminatory conduct, abuse of authority, or harassment of any kind, including that of a sexual nature. We must
also refrain from making jokes, slurs or other remarks that are about race, color, religion, gender, age, national or
ethnic origin, sexual orientation, martial status, disabilities or veteran’s status or are of a sexual nature that can
encourage or create an offensive or hostile environment.
Implicit or explicit verbal threats, intimidation or violence.
both of thier managers and senior associates spoke in favour of them and asked the HR to warn them
But in order to prove thier authority over managers they took it as a ego clash and spoiled 2 people lifes.this is what my manager told.since HR rules all the policies managers were helpless in this matter.
Both of them got appreciation from thier managers in very short time compared to thier fellow batch students.infact that guy worked from morning to next day morning to fix a critical issue for that he got appreciation from many seniors associates.
From India, Madras
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Incident Location and Review Suggestion
The place of occurrence is the cafeteria and not the workplace. Maybe both of them should represent and seek a review of the termination citing the reasons. The management may reconsider it.
Regards,
Rajan associates
From India, Bangalore
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The place of occurrence is the cafeteria and not the workplace. Maybe both of them should represent and seek a review of the termination citing the reasons. The management may reconsider it.
Regards,
Rajan associates
From India, Bangalore
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it was wrong decision. management should never take such things. there is always a room to listen the people involved before taking such nasty decision.
From India, Warangal
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From India, Warangal
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Here, if the management is in favor of both, I don't think HR has the right to terminate. Also, if this is the first time, then I think there must be a warning but not termination. I think both of them have to meet the management and ask them for a chance. Additionally, if both of them have forgiven each other and have not taken the topic to the management, and the incident took place in the cafeteria and not the workplace, then HR does not have any right to intervene in this incident. Please ask your friends to speak to the management.
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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Incident Reflection and HR Accountability
If you seriously need the answer for this, keep this incident in mind. Surely someday HRs play like this in the cafeteria, then ask them why they are not terminated for this incident. They will give you a reply. The law is common for all because HR will come under the employee category.
From India, Madras
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If you seriously need the answer for this, keep this incident in mind. Surely someday HRs play like this in the cafeteria, then ask them why they are not terminated for this incident. They will give you a reply. The law is common for all because HR will come under the employee category.
From India, Madras
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Management's Decision and Office Decorum
The decision taken by management is the right one. It's a lesson for everybody to maintain the decorum of the office. An office is not a college, park, or public place. Like children, employees should behave accordingly.
Why did management forgive them when that boy is hardworking? Other colleagues will also follow him.
From India, Pune
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The decision taken by management is the right one. It's a lesson for everybody to maintain the decorum of the office. An office is not a college, park, or public place. Like children, employees should behave accordingly.
Why did management forgive them when that boy is hardworking? Other colleagues will also follow him.
From India, Pune
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Dear Mani,
I was not able to log in earlier. Thank you for the information. The probation period is normally for six months to determine if they were given an extension. If yes, then generally another 3 months. You mentioned they worked for 10 months.
If no letter is issued, then they are deemed confirmed, and management cannot ask them to leave abruptly. Firstly, they need to be issued a show cause, and if the answer is not found satisfactory, then action can be taken.
The standing order as specified by the government also does not have such harsh punishments. What you have mentioned is more like a policy and not a standing order.
In case of unfair termination, please write a letter to the labor commissioner of your state with a CC to the CEO/GM or whoever heads the company. Request reinstatement citing unfair HR practices.
Also, suggest they visit HR for a discussion on the topic and record the conversation on their mobile phones to try to obtain evidence of any victimization.
See if this helps. Provide more details if possible.
I do not agree with abksatara.
Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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I was not able to log in earlier. Thank you for the information. The probation period is normally for six months to determine if they were given an extension. If yes, then generally another 3 months. You mentioned they worked for 10 months.
If no letter is issued, then they are deemed confirmed, and management cannot ask them to leave abruptly. Firstly, they need to be issued a show cause, and if the answer is not found satisfactory, then action can be taken.
The standing order as specified by the government also does not have such harsh punishments. What you have mentioned is more like a policy and not a standing order.
In case of unfair termination, please write a letter to the labor commissioner of your state with a CC to the CEO/GM or whoever heads the company. Request reinstatement citing unfair HR practices.
Also, suggest they visit HR for a discussion on the topic and record the conversation on their mobile phones to try to obtain evidence of any victimization.
See if this helps. Provide more details if possible.
I do not agree with abksatara.
Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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As you all know, HR has its own level of hierarchy like director, senior director. These people discuss among themselves and make decisions. They are not even ready to listen to both sides. My friends sent an email to the director of HR, but there was no reply from him. At least that boy was reprimanded for his actions, but what about the girl? As a fellow associate and a friend of theirs, it is really frightening for us. We do not have job security. The managers tried their best, but they cannot do anything against HR. Is there any other way to get their jobs back?
The situation for the girl is worse since she worked in mainframe, and she is not finding any job openings despite having 9 months of experience. Since the 2010 passouts are already in the job market, she cannot even be treated as a fresher. Their careers are at stake now.
Can anyone help her? Please let me know.
From India, Madras
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The situation for the girl is worse since she worked in mainframe, and she is not finding any job openings despite having 9 months of experience. Since the 2010 passouts are already in the job market, she cannot even be treated as a fresher. Their careers are at stake now.
Can anyone help her? Please let me know.
From India, Madras
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Dear Viraj,
You are right, they said it's against policy so they are terminating them. HR didn't ask anything, only asked for an apology letter. After receiving the apology letter, they returned their ID cards and asked them to leave. The next day, they mentioned they had an internal discussion based on which they terminated them. In just two days, they terminated them abruptly and asked them to submit their resignation papers. When they refused to apply for resignation, HR threatened them that they wouldn't receive an experience certificate unless they resigned voluntarily. So, out of fear, they applied for resignation.
Please tell me the procedure clearly to send a letter to the labor commissioner. Please PM me your email ID.
From India, Madras
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You are right, they said it's against policy so they are terminating them. HR didn't ask anything, only asked for an apology letter. After receiving the apology letter, they returned their ID cards and asked them to leave. The next day, they mentioned they had an internal discussion based on which they terminated them. In just two days, they terminated them abruptly and asked them to submit their resignation papers. When they refused to apply for resignation, HR threatened them that they wouldn't receive an experience certificate unless they resigned voluntarily. So, out of fear, they applied for resignation.
Please tell me the procedure clearly to send a letter to the labor commissioner. Please PM me your email ID.
From India, Madras
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Dear Viraj
I can understand why abksatara suggested it. In a software firm the environment remains sensitive. Even very little behaviour comes under the scanner. The HR's have to be doubly sure of employee behaviour in office premises. It sets the code of conduct for them.
I have handled a situation where it was a husband and a wife, who couldn't stop fighting even during work hours. We had transferred them to different locations and warned on maintaining a personal decorum.
Please don't find this chaperoning. This is a must to set the environment right. One outburst would lead to another and no sooner it would run out of everyone's hand. Worst is when someone else complain about such behaviour at office. It leaves no room for HR, other than setting the code right.
I would agree with abksatara , and request the professionals to learn a lesson from this. We all go through our emotional problems, but then we remain objective and follow the decorum in office.
The legal proceeding that you are suggesting may initiate the dialogue with HR, but not necessarily solve the problem and get their jobs back. They will still need this HR to give a positive feedback about them when they apply in some other organization. Please look beyond the instant situation and suggest a long term solution to them. If they have been terminated on disciplinary grounds, its difficult for them to be rehired.
Mani, I would suggest your friends to remains apologetic for what they have done. After 10 months of working in an environment, they should not have allowed this slip up. Every action we do in our workplaces reflects our effectiveness and creates credibility. It builds on our reputation which remains sensitive to such reactions.
Please do remember, just as we are rewarded with more responsibility when some of our initiatives work. Similarly, we are axed due to our attitudes we unmindfully end up showing.
This is still a small price to pay for what they are learning for life. Please do value the learning and focus on the future. I wish them all the best and believe they would now make a meaningful and a successful carrier.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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I can understand why abksatara suggested it. In a software firm the environment remains sensitive. Even very little behaviour comes under the scanner. The HR's have to be doubly sure of employee behaviour in office premises. It sets the code of conduct for them.
I have handled a situation where it was a husband and a wife, who couldn't stop fighting even during work hours. We had transferred them to different locations and warned on maintaining a personal decorum.
Please don't find this chaperoning. This is a must to set the environment right. One outburst would lead to another and no sooner it would run out of everyone's hand. Worst is when someone else complain about such behaviour at office. It leaves no room for HR, other than setting the code right.
I would agree with abksatara , and request the professionals to learn a lesson from this. We all go through our emotional problems, but then we remain objective and follow the decorum in office.
The legal proceeding that you are suggesting may initiate the dialogue with HR, but not necessarily solve the problem and get their jobs back. They will still need this HR to give a positive feedback about them when they apply in some other organization. Please look beyond the instant situation and suggest a long term solution to them. If they have been terminated on disciplinary grounds, its difficult for them to be rehired.
Mani, I would suggest your friends to remains apologetic for what they have done. After 10 months of working in an environment, they should not have allowed this slip up. Every action we do in our workplaces reflects our effectiveness and creates credibility. It builds on our reputation which remains sensitive to such reactions.
Please do remember, just as we are rewarded with more responsibility when some of our initiatives work. Similarly, we are axed due to our attitudes we unmindfully end up showing.
This is still a small price to pay for what they are learning for life. Please do value the learning and focus on the future. I wish them all the best and believe they would now make a meaningful and a successful carrier.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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Dear,
I am not saying they don't deserve punishment. They deserve punishment, but my question is: do they have to be punished so severely? Being in the IT field, you know very well how difficult it is to find a job with less than 1 year of experience. You mentioned that you handled a similar situation, but why didn't you terminate the husband and wife instead of relocating them? You could have suspended them, but termination seems harsh.
From India, Madras
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I am not saying they don't deserve punishment. They deserve punishment, but my question is: do they have to be punished so severely? Being in the IT field, you know very well how difficult it is to find a job with less than 1 year of experience. You mentioned that you handled a similar situation, but why didn't you terminate the husband and wife instead of relocating them? You could have suspended them, but termination seems harsh.
From India, Madras
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Greetings,
The action taken is entirely the HR's prerogative. In our case, it was a huge organisation, we had an option to relocate the husband. What if that option wasn't there for us? It was purely incidental that we acted differently. The intention was same.
I am not denying that it's difficult to get a job with lower experience, but it's not impossible. Infact they stand a better chance now. Please suggest them to target the smaller firms. Though they would be treated as fresher's, but hired easily as they have experience and a brand to cash on. They may not be offered as high salary as they were earning, but let them join.
In the long term with more certifications and experience they can make an entry to the Tier -1 levels. Infact, this would act in their favour as they would be able to join in higher levels than working through the roles in the same organization. In smaller organization, people take more responsibility and manage more specialised jobs. They need to focus on stability in a small firm and that would make it work for them in the long term.
I have a separate concern about them and that is background verification. They should be able to clear it, only if they can maintain the HR's sympathy.
You are their friend so please help them out with it. Let them use the contacts of other leaders such as their faculties and friends like you, who can vouch for their credibility.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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The action taken is entirely the HR's prerogative. In our case, it was a huge organisation, we had an option to relocate the husband. What if that option wasn't there for us? It was purely incidental that we acted differently. The intention was same.
I am not denying that it's difficult to get a job with lower experience, but it's not impossible. Infact they stand a better chance now. Please suggest them to target the smaller firms. Though they would be treated as fresher's, but hired easily as they have experience and a brand to cash on. They may not be offered as high salary as they were earning, but let them join.
In the long term with more certifications and experience they can make an entry to the Tier -1 levels. Infact, this would act in their favour as they would be able to join in higher levels than working through the roles in the same organization. In smaller organization, people take more responsibility and manage more specialised jobs. They need to focus on stability in a small firm and that would make it work for them in the long term.
I have a separate concern about them and that is background verification. They should be able to clear it, only if they can maintain the HR's sympathy.
You are their friend so please help them out with it. Let them use the contacts of other leaders such as their faculties and friends like you, who can vouch for their credibility.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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Ridiculous. If the HR thought abt both of their future, he/she should not have given such a cruel punishment. A HR should be concerned abt the employees also...............
From India, Coimbatore
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From India, Coimbatore
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Dear All,
Punishment for Assaulting Co-worker at the Workplace While on Duty
The employer-employee relationship is and should be governed by the legal/statutory provisions specifically laid down by either the Industrial Employment (Standing Orders) Act or by the respective Shops & Establishment Act and not by the whims and fancies of Any Manager in the Establishment.
The Acts indicate the acts of misconduct for which the employee is liable to disciplinary action. The Honorable Supreme Court of India has long ago unambiguously defined what all could constitute an act of misconduct.
The incident reported to management in this case amounts to an act of grave misconduct irrespective of the fact that no complaint whatsoever - written or verbal - was lodged/made by the victim - the female employee in the case.
The management should have conducted a proper preliminary inquiry to ascertain whether there was prima facie reason to proceed further and should have issued a proper charge-sheet to the employee for assaulting his colleague.
On receipt of his explanation, the management should have ordered an inquiry as per the procedure laid down by the Honorable Supreme Court & the High Courts from time to time.
No punishment can be awarded without conducting a proper domestic inquiry.
In this case, the legal and procedural aspects have been breached by the management & would not stand legal scrutiny. The Presiding Officers have taken a dim view of such lapses on the part of management & ordered reinstatement with wages and passed strictures.
It becomes important for top managements to organize training for their HR & ER Managers so that they could aid and advise functional heads to initiate disciplinary action for acts of misconduct in their establishments.
The action taken by the management in this case is "arbitrary" and is not "fair," "just," & "reasonable."
The tendency to act arbitrarily is mostly on account of ignorance or arrogance which only results in unwelcome & unpleasant publicity & public attention for the organization & global clients/customers.
Professionals are welcome to comment on this.
Harsh Kumar Sharan (XLRI Alumnus)
Head - Executive Coaching & Training, IR Expert
Kritarth Consulting (P) Ltd.
New Delhi
+91 - 9560453756
From India, Delhi
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Punishment for Assaulting Co-worker at the Workplace While on Duty
The employer-employee relationship is and should be governed by the legal/statutory provisions specifically laid down by either the Industrial Employment (Standing Orders) Act or by the respective Shops & Establishment Act and not by the whims and fancies of Any Manager in the Establishment.
The Acts indicate the acts of misconduct for which the employee is liable to disciplinary action. The Honorable Supreme Court of India has long ago unambiguously defined what all could constitute an act of misconduct.
The incident reported to management in this case amounts to an act of grave misconduct irrespective of the fact that no complaint whatsoever - written or verbal - was lodged/made by the victim - the female employee in the case.
The management should have conducted a proper preliminary inquiry to ascertain whether there was prima facie reason to proceed further and should have issued a proper charge-sheet to the employee for assaulting his colleague.
On receipt of his explanation, the management should have ordered an inquiry as per the procedure laid down by the Honorable Supreme Court & the High Courts from time to time.
No punishment can be awarded without conducting a proper domestic inquiry.
In this case, the legal and procedural aspects have been breached by the management & would not stand legal scrutiny. The Presiding Officers have taken a dim view of such lapses on the part of management & ordered reinstatement with wages and passed strictures.
It becomes important for top managements to organize training for their HR & ER Managers so that they could aid and advise functional heads to initiate disciplinary action for acts of misconduct in their establishments.
The action taken by the management in this case is "arbitrary" and is not "fair," "just," & "reasonable."
The tendency to act arbitrarily is mostly on account of ignorance or arrogance which only results in unwelcome & unpleasant publicity & public attention for the organization & global clients/customers.
Professionals are welcome to comment on this.
Harsh Kumar Sharan (XLRI Alumnus)
Head - Executive Coaching & Training, IR Expert
Kritarth Consulting (P) Ltd.
New Delhi
+91 - 9560453756
From India, Delhi
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Termination is not an answer for everything. Considering the matter about slapping and terminating an employee is unethical. You say this happened in a cafeteria, so it's not a workplace and can't be considered so serious.
Are you sure that the matter was only about slapping and nothing more? Both the employees can log a case against labor law, and strict action can be taken by the company. No HR has such rights for termination on the basis of slapping. If you see, normally HR are the ones who will be too mannerless and careless about the policies. Suspection for 1 week was more than enough in the above scenario.
I have seen in many Indian companies that are top-rated where employees have complained against sexual harassment, and no action has been taken. Please go ahead and consult a Labor Law Lawyer... Hope for the best.
From United States, Hopkinton
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Are you sure that the matter was only about slapping and nothing more? Both the employees can log a case against labor law, and strict action can be taken by the company. No HR has such rights for termination on the basis of slapping. If you see, normally HR are the ones who will be too mannerless and careless about the policies. Suspection for 1 week was more than enough in the above scenario.
I have seen in many Indian companies that are top-rated where employees have complained against sexual harassment, and no action has been taken. Please go ahead and consult a Labor Law Lawyer... Hope for the best.
From United States, Hopkinton
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Dear Harsh,
I agree with your point. But since I know how it works, I can say that it would be very easy for the HR to prove it as a disciplinary case culminating in physical abuse witnessed and reported by others, which led to termination.
Hence, I request these professionals not to fight any case with the HR. They need the HR to give them clearance during the background verification. It would be best for them to resume working. Continuity in their career is all they need, not a war to win.
They were irresponsible and have rightly paid a price with the job loss. Hopefully, they have learned a lesson. Please do connect Mani with any opportunity you are aware of; we would truly appreciate that help.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
Dear All,
Punishment for Assaulting a Co-worker at the Workplace while on Duty
The employer-employee relationship is and should be governed by the legal/statutory provisions specifically laid down by either the Industrial Employment (Standing Orders) Act or by the respective Shops & Establishment Act and not by the whims and fancies of any manager in the establishment. The Acts indicate the acts of misconduct for which the employee is liable to disciplinary action. The Honorable Supreme Court of India has long ago unambiguously defined what all could constitute an act of misconduct.
The incident reported to management in this case amounts to an act of grave misconduct irrespective of the fact that no complaint whatsoever - written or verbal - was lodged/made by the victim, the female employee in the case. The management should have conducted a proper preliminary inquiry to ascertain whether there was prima facie reason to proceed further and should have issued a proper charge sheet to the employee for assaulting his colleague.
On receipt of his explanation, the management should have ordered an inquiry as per procedure laid down by the Honorable Supreme Court & the High Courts from time to time. No punishment can be awarded without conducting a proper domestic inquiry. In this case, the legal and procedural aspects have been breached by the management and would not stand legal scrutiny. The Presiding Officers have taken a dim view of such lapses on the part of management and ordered reinstatement with wages and passed strictures.
It becomes important for top managements to organize training for their HR & ER Managers so that they could aid and advise functional heads to initiate disciplinary action for acts of misconduct in their establishments. The action taken by the management in this case is "arbitrary" and is not "fair," "just," & "reasonable".
The tendency to act arbitrarily is mostly on account of ignorance or arrogance which only results in unwelcome & unpleasant publicity & public attention for the organization & global clients/customers. Professionals are welcome to add on to this.
Harsh Kumar Sharan (XLRI Alumnus) Head - Executive Coaching & Training, IR Expert Kritarth Consulting (P) Ltd. New Delhi +91 - 9560453756 hksharan@kritrth.com
From India, Mumbai
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I agree with your point. But since I know how it works, I can say that it would be very easy for the HR to prove it as a disciplinary case culminating in physical abuse witnessed and reported by others, which led to termination.
Hence, I request these professionals not to fight any case with the HR. They need the HR to give them clearance during the background verification. It would be best for them to resume working. Continuity in their career is all they need, not a war to win.
They were irresponsible and have rightly paid a price with the job loss. Hopefully, they have learned a lesson. Please do connect Mani with any opportunity you are aware of; we would truly appreciate that help.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
Dear All,
Punishment for Assaulting a Co-worker at the Workplace while on Duty
The employer-employee relationship is and should be governed by the legal/statutory provisions specifically laid down by either the Industrial Employment (Standing Orders) Act or by the respective Shops & Establishment Act and not by the whims and fancies of any manager in the establishment. The Acts indicate the acts of misconduct for which the employee is liable to disciplinary action. The Honorable Supreme Court of India has long ago unambiguously defined what all could constitute an act of misconduct.
The incident reported to management in this case amounts to an act of grave misconduct irrespective of the fact that no complaint whatsoever - written or verbal - was lodged/made by the victim, the female employee in the case. The management should have conducted a proper preliminary inquiry to ascertain whether there was prima facie reason to proceed further and should have issued a proper charge sheet to the employee for assaulting his colleague.
On receipt of his explanation, the management should have ordered an inquiry as per procedure laid down by the Honorable Supreme Court & the High Courts from time to time. No punishment can be awarded without conducting a proper domestic inquiry. In this case, the legal and procedural aspects have been breached by the management and would not stand legal scrutiny. The Presiding Officers have taken a dim view of such lapses on the part of management and ordered reinstatement with wages and passed strictures.
It becomes important for top managements to organize training for their HR & ER Managers so that they could aid and advise functional heads to initiate disciplinary action for acts of misconduct in their establishments. The action taken by the management in this case is "arbitrary" and is not "fair," "just," & "reasonable".
The tendency to act arbitrarily is mostly on account of ignorance or arrogance which only results in unwelcome & unpleasant publicity & public attention for the organization & global clients/customers. Professionals are welcome to add on to this.
Harsh Kumar Sharan (XLRI Alumnus) Head - Executive Coaching & Training, IR Expert Kritarth Consulting (P) Ltd. New Delhi +91 - 9560453756 hksharan@kritrth.com
From India, Mumbai
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HR cannot terminate any employee without issuing atleast three warning letters. Tell terminated Guys to file a case with Labour commissioner, Officer.
From United States, Cincinnati
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From United States, Cincinnati
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Dear Rohit,
I agree to the three-letter step approach. However, IT firms follow the 'employment at will' policy. The appointment letter would include the code of conduct which they might have signed. It includes adherence to discipline. The code may not clearly explain the process for taking action on any non-adherence, but every code implies that any non-adherence would lead to termination.
My sincere suggestion is that fighting a case will not be the solution, but continuity in the career is what truly matters. We understand they made a mistake and learned a lesson. Hopefully, they will continue their careers with this knowledge. Please connect Mani with any opportunities that you may come across. Please do consider this suggestion.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
HR cannot terminate any employee without issuing at least three warning letters. Tell terminated individuals to file a case with the Labour Commissioner's Office.
From India, Mumbai
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I agree to the three-letter step approach. However, IT firms follow the 'employment at will' policy. The appointment letter would include the code of conduct which they might have signed. It includes adherence to discipline. The code may not clearly explain the process for taking action on any non-adherence, but every code implies that any non-adherence would lead to termination.
My sincere suggestion is that fighting a case will not be the solution, but continuity in the career is what truly matters. We understand they made a mistake and learned a lesson. Hopefully, they will continue their careers with this knowledge. Please connect Mani with any opportunities that you may come across. Please do consider this suggestion.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
HR cannot terminate any employee without issuing at least three warning letters. Tell terminated individuals to file a case with the Labour Commissioner's Office.
From India, Mumbai
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Rajan Associates need to note that the cafeteria within the premises will be deemed to be the workplace only or an extension of it if this incident has taken place during duty hours. Punishment might be harsh, but you have to deal with a strong hand in a place like a software company where many girls and boys work together. Whatever the provocation was, he could not slap a girl on duty. Moreover, they were on probation, and conduct is monitored during probation. Termination, although a bit harsh, is justified. Performance includes conduct and behavior as well.
From India, Bangalore
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From India, Bangalore
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Office Premises and Termination
It's still office premises! Apologizing and requesting is fine, but I don't really see it as a way out. When they have already been released, there's little hope that they will be re-hired. It's best to move ahead from this point.
From India, Mumbai
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It's still office premises! Apologizing and requesting is fine, but I don't really see it as a way out. When they have already been released, there's little hope that they will be re-hired. It's best to move ahead from this point.
From India, Mumbai
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Hi,
After looking at all the discussions above, I would like to point out a few things:
1. Both of them have been there for 10 months, so I believe they are no longer on probation. If they are on the permanent payroll of the company, HR has to give them a show cause notice.
2. An application for reconsideration of the decision can be made to higher authorities like the Director of HR, CEO, and other reporting managers, along with a copy sent to the Labor Commissioner.
3. For the termination of any employee, there is a complete process that starts with a show cause notice, which HR neglected during the termination decision.
4. In a corporate setting, if there are any grievances, a Grievances Redressal Committee is in place for situational analysis. Decisions are made on the same day of the hearing, and statements have to be recorded from others to support the case.
5. The girl can request again on the grounds that just pinching cannot be an issue for termination, as it is not a crime or a severe misconduct to the higher HR and managing authorities.
6. Ask both of your friends to inquire from other colleagues in the office if they have experienced similar rude behavior from the same managers. If so, they can file a complaint against them for misusing their rights.
I hope this can help them out.
All the best, and ask them to keep the light of hope.
From India, Delhi
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After looking at all the discussions above, I would like to point out a few things:
1. Both of them have been there for 10 months, so I believe they are no longer on probation. If they are on the permanent payroll of the company, HR has to give them a show cause notice.
2. An application for reconsideration of the decision can be made to higher authorities like the Director of HR, CEO, and other reporting managers, along with a copy sent to the Labor Commissioner.
3. For the termination of any employee, there is a complete process that starts with a show cause notice, which HR neglected during the termination decision.
4. In a corporate setting, if there are any grievances, a Grievances Redressal Committee is in place for situational analysis. Decisions are made on the same day of the hearing, and statements have to be recorded from others to support the case.
5. The girl can request again on the grounds that just pinching cannot be an issue for termination, as it is not a crime or a severe misconduct to the higher HR and managing authorities.
6. Ask both of your friends to inquire from other colleagues in the office if they have experienced similar rude behavior from the same managers. If so, they can file a complaint against them for misusing their rights.
I hope this can help them out.
All the best, and ask them to keep the light of hope.
From India, Delhi
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Hi Manikandan,
First of all, this matter is not to be raised in front of management. Secondly, when both the boy and the girl don't have any complaints against each other, then why has action been taken? The employee who has a complaint about both needs to understand that he has nothing to do with their personal matters.
Please ask your friends to personally meet the management and discuss the issue. HR is given the authority to make the right decision and not to spoil anybody's career. If this is the case, I think the HR in your organization needs proper training.
Also, you can advise your friend to consult a good lawyer and discuss this matter to potentially file a case against HR.
Please brief me in detail.
Regards,
Sapna
From India, Mumbai
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First of all, this matter is not to be raised in front of management. Secondly, when both the boy and the girl don't have any complaints against each other, then why has action been taken? The employee who has a complaint about both needs to understand that he has nothing to do with their personal matters.
Please ask your friends to personally meet the management and discuss the issue. HR is given the authority to make the right decision and not to spoil anybody's career. If this is the case, I think the HR in your organization needs proper training.
Also, you can advise your friend to consult a good lawyer and discuss this matter to potentially file a case against HR.
Please brief me in detail.
Regards,
Sapna
From India, Mumbai
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Dear Mani,
The punishment awarded by HR was justified. The idea of awarding punishment was not only to punish the wrongdoer but also to send a strong message across to other employees that such kind of behavior is not acceptable from anyone.
What both the employees can do is request a hearing and try to convert the degree of punishment from termination to suspension.
Also, please check what your company policy on the code of conduct mentions. If there is nothing mentioned regarding such behavior or similar situations, you can claim a lack of knowledge of the repercussions of their behavior in the absence of clear guidance under the HR policy.
Additionally, review your company's termination policy and code of conduct policy to see if there is any provision for overturning the punishment awarded to you.
Regards,
Octavious
From India, Mumbai
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The punishment awarded by HR was justified. The idea of awarding punishment was not only to punish the wrongdoer but also to send a strong message across to other employees that such kind of behavior is not acceptable from anyone.
What both the employees can do is request a hearing and try to convert the degree of punishment from termination to suspension.
Also, please check what your company policy on the code of conduct mentions. If there is nothing mentioned regarding such behavior or similar situations, you can claim a lack of knowledge of the repercussions of their behavior in the absence of clear guidance under the HR policy.
Additionally, review your company's termination policy and code of conduct policy to see if there is any provision for overturning the punishment awarded to you.
Regards,
Octavious
From India, Mumbai
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Mr. Manikandan,
Some points I want to share with you. First of all, admit that your friends have made a mistake. Your initiative is truly appreciable. But why did that girl write "I pinched him" if it is a lie? Then it's the second mistake that she wrote in her letter. Whatever the incident, if it's on paper, it's solid proof with two witnesses and two other associates. Leave them because if they did it for gaining reputation, promotion, or a good image, then their career is at stake.
A person can't be successful if he/she has a mentality like crabs.
About the boy: To slap a girl in a cafeteria (you said they have known each other for 5 years), it doesn't matter if you are slapping your own sister in a cafeteria; it reflects poor character. Please advise him to seek guidance from a good mentor; otherwise, it will be a curse for him.
About his job: Update your resume and be prepared to accept a new job, even if it's not in the same field. Career isn't everything in life; life is beyond just a career.
About the girl: Tell her to forgive that boy. Forgiving others means gaining wisdom. It's not easy, but she can still do it.
About her job: Update your resume and be prepared to accept a new job, even if it's not in the same field. Career isn't everything in life; life is beyond just a career.
One of the best ways to help your two friends is not to disclose this matter with other friends.
From India, Thiruvananthapuram
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Some points I want to share with you. First of all, admit that your friends have made a mistake. Your initiative is truly appreciable. But why did that girl write "I pinched him" if it is a lie? Then it's the second mistake that she wrote in her letter. Whatever the incident, if it's on paper, it's solid proof with two witnesses and two other associates. Leave them because if they did it for gaining reputation, promotion, or a good image, then their career is at stake.
A person can't be successful if he/she has a mentality like crabs.
About the boy: To slap a girl in a cafeteria (you said they have known each other for 5 years), it doesn't matter if you are slapping your own sister in a cafeteria; it reflects poor character. Please advise him to seek guidance from a good mentor; otherwise, it will be a curse for him.
About his job: Update your resume and be prepared to accept a new job, even if it's not in the same field. Career isn't everything in life; life is beyond just a career.
About the girl: Tell her to forgive that boy. Forgiving others means gaining wisdom. It's not easy, but she can still do it.
About her job: Update your resume and be prepared to accept a new job, even if it's not in the same field. Career isn't everything in life; life is beyond just a career.
One of the best ways to help your two friends is not to disclose this matter with other friends.
From India, Thiruvananthapuram
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No, this is not the right punishment. Both the boy and the girl should have been given time to improve. You have not mentioned their performance or track record in the company during the last 10 months. Please write about it.
Regards,
Krishan Grover
From India
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Regards,
Krishan Grover
From India
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Dear,
Today "privacy" is put in the forefront. The cafeteria is a public place and not the 'work spot'. If the company interferes in the "private issues" between the employees, then there would be no one left to work, and the company would have to close down. A small issue has been blown out of proportion. Also, the software industry is like any other industry, and let us not keep separate standards for it.
Rajan Associates
From India, Bangalore
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Today "privacy" is put in the forefront. The cafeteria is a public place and not the 'work spot'. If the company interferes in the "private issues" between the employees, then there would be no one left to work, and the company would have to close down. A small issue has been blown out of proportion. Also, the software industry is like any other industry, and let us not keep separate standards for it.
Rajan Associates
From India, Bangalore
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Poor guys, being 2009 passouts, they would have behaved the same way as in college. It takes time to mold into a professional. As per the agreement, the entered code of conduct has to be maintained within the premises irrespective of the workplace or cafeteria. If this is the first instance of these guys being caught, perhaps your HR (hopefully not from a military regime) could have been a little flexible to warn and help them understand professional ethics, as it is the role of HR. Anyways, they can certainly appeal to management.
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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Dear Mani,
What most of my peers have been suggesting, and what you are also seeking, in my opinion, is an idealistic approach to this issue. Writing to the Labour commissioner, filing for a review, etc., might be options open, but using these options might end up delaying the present situation and distracting your friends from focusing on the ONE thing they need to be doing - getting into the job hunt and maintaining continuity of employment.
On the other hand, what (Cite Contribution) and a few others have mentioned is a more pragmatic approach, which will help your friends put their career back on track. Do not be so pessimistic in assuming that this incident has permanently spoiled their career. In the fluid nature of the workplace today, such incidents will be pardoned soon if they prove their merit in another job.
I must also express my appreciation for the appeal for rehabilitation made by (Cite Contribution) through this forum. It just goes to prove that CiteHR and its network can prove immensely useful to its members.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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What most of my peers have been suggesting, and what you are also seeking, in my opinion, is an idealistic approach to this issue. Writing to the Labour commissioner, filing for a review, etc., might be options open, but using these options might end up delaying the present situation and distracting your friends from focusing on the ONE thing they need to be doing - getting into the job hunt and maintaining continuity of employment.
On the other hand, what (Cite Contribution) and a few others have mentioned is a more pragmatic approach, which will help your friends put their career back on track. Do not be so pessimistic in assuming that this incident has permanently spoiled their career. In the fluid nature of the workplace today, such incidents will be pardoned soon if they prove their merit in another job.
I must also express my appreciation for the appeal for rehabilitation made by (Cite Contribution) through this forum. It just goes to prove that CiteHR and its network can prove immensely useful to its members.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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First thing I want to know about any one of them is if they have given a complaint to the management regarding the incident. Because this happened in the cafeteria, not in the workplace, and this concerns both parties mutually. If something happened in a heated argument and they both realized their mistake, and no one complained to the management, then there is no question of termination. However, if they both displayed a negative attitude, they can be suspended for a few days.
Jiwan
From India, Delhi
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Jiwan
From India, Delhi
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I agree with abksatara..... today the guy slapped, and tomorrow he might stab someone else. Will you people just suspend him then? It would be a matter of the company's reputation then. It's good that they are terminated. It might be a harsh punishment, but since they are just 10 months old in the office, they could look elsewhere where pinching, slapping, and all the nonsense is allowed.
-Babsi
From India, Bangalore
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-Babsi
From India, Bangalore
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Hi, when this taken to HR. it to be consider and give warning letter or simple memo. but it is not necessary for termination. HR and Management to be consider. Thanks & Regards, Gopi. C
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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Here's my two cents. The conduct of both parties was unprofessional for office premises. (What are they? 12?) Therefore, the management was right to terminate them. Whether they should've terminated both of them though is the question. Seriously. If you're in the office, you should behave properly.
Workplace violence is unacceptable. Next thing we know, it's ok to shoot someone because they had "personal differences." The line has to be drawn here.
From India, Delhi
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Workplace violence is unacceptable. Next thing we know, it's ok to shoot someone because they had "personal differences." The line has to be drawn here.
From India, Delhi
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The careers of two fresh/young executives are marred if this small and harmless incident is taken so seriously. When both the people involved do not have an issue, there is no case of discrimination or harassment.
I think if both of them approach the topmost management and put in a sincere request and apologize, then they should be back in their jobs with a small warning letter. Surely, many such harmless incidents take place in the workplace, which actually also helps in team building and increasing camaraderie.
Unless the HR has a different agenda, there was no reason for such harsh action for such young staff - youthful exuberance can be a positive and should not be made punishable. Hope all goes well for both the two executives.
dj
From India, Mumbai
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I think if both of them approach the topmost management and put in a sincere request and apologize, then they should be back in their jobs with a small warning letter. Surely, many such harmless incidents take place in the workplace, which actually also helps in team building and increasing camaraderie.
Unless the HR has a different agenda, there was no reason for such harsh action for such young staff - youthful exuberance can be a positive and should not be made punishable. Hope all goes well for both the two executives.
dj
From India, Mumbai
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Hi all,
To reiterate, the only answer to this situation is to follow the legal path. Now, write a letter to the Labour Commissioner citing all the points and also attach the apology letter, termination letter, and appointment letter with the letter, with a cc to the CEO/head. And yes, if all of you are in favor of the victims, get all the employees to sign the letter.
From India, New Delhi
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To reiterate, the only answer to this situation is to follow the legal path. Now, write a letter to the Labour Commissioner citing all the points and also attach the apology letter, termination letter, and appointment letter with the letter, with a cc to the CEO/head. And yes, if all of you are in favor of the victims, get all the employees to sign the letter.
From India, New Delhi
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Addressing Workplace Abuse
Any kind of physical or verbal abuse should not be tolerated in the workplace. It is not easy to know the limitations in both of these cases; hence, HR should take a firm stance. This approach leads to safer and healthier work environments.
Regards,
Ruby
From India, Mumbai
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Any kind of physical or verbal abuse should not be tolerated in the workplace. It is not easy to know the limitations in both of these cases; hence, HR should take a firm stance. This approach leads to safer and healthier work environments.
Regards,
Ruby
From India, Mumbai
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Hi I feel in the given case warning was enough, its a heavy punishment. Should have been avoided. Ravinder Singh
From Singapore, Singapore
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From Singapore, Singapore
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Management's Reaction to Workplace Incidents
This type of issue may arise in an organization. However, the management should not have reacted so harshly as none of them complained about the same. This is not the right message for an HR-oriented era. They should protest against the same.
Regards
From India, New Delhi
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This type of issue may arise in an organization. However, the management should not have reacted so harshly as none of them complained about the same. This is not the right message for an HR-oriented era. They should protest against the same.
Regards
From India, New Delhi
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Dear Mani,
The Supreme Court is very clear on this issue. If you want to terminate anybody because of any misconduct, you have to conduct the Domestic Enquiry. Without giving proper hearing, they cannot terminate them even if they are on probation. Both can file a case in the Labour court, and I am 100% sure they will get back their jobs. Please also mention if any disciplinary action like issuing a show cause or conducting an enquiry was initiated by the management or not. For further clarification, feel free to call me.
Kamal Kant Tyagi Advocate Labour Law Consultant +91-9313907096
From India, New Delhi
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The Supreme Court is very clear on this issue. If you want to terminate anybody because of any misconduct, you have to conduct the Domestic Enquiry. Without giving proper hearing, they cannot terminate them even if they are on probation. Both can file a case in the Labour court, and I am 100% sure they will get back their jobs. Please also mention if any disciplinary action like issuing a show cause or conducting an enquiry was initiated by the management or not. For further clarification, feel free to call me.
Kamal Kant Tyagi Advocate Labour Law Consultant +91-9313907096
From India, New Delhi
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Dear all,
I have seen people commenting on both sides. Give this a thought. Management (or HRD) seems to have terminated these employees without a thought. What if the employees go and file a complaint that someone from HR slapped him or her? That's it. Will the HR department terminate this employee without an enquiry? If not, then what has happened is unfair. If yes, then the company urgently needs help to replace employees in the HR department to avoid further damage to the organization. The management can terminate the employees in the HR department the same way as was done in this case.
Also, all the HR Managers who sympathize can please offer jobs to these individuals, if they work in an IT company.
Dear Mani, please post their resumes in this forum, and all of us can try to relocate them.
To the HR team of the said company, when you get fired, you can do the same. We like to play fair. The company has done wrong by you.
Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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I have seen people commenting on both sides. Give this a thought. Management (or HRD) seems to have terminated these employees without a thought. What if the employees go and file a complaint that someone from HR slapped him or her? That's it. Will the HR department terminate this employee without an enquiry? If not, then what has happened is unfair. If yes, then the company urgently needs help to replace employees in the HR department to avoid further damage to the organization. The management can terminate the employees in the HR department the same way as was done in this case.
Also, all the HR Managers who sympathize can please offer jobs to these individuals, if they work in an IT company.
Dear Mani, please post their resumes in this forum, and all of us can try to relocate them.
To the HR team of the said company, when you get fired, you can do the same. We like to play fair. The company has done wrong by you.
Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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Dear All,
In an organization, policies and procedures exist apart from approved standing orders from respective state government bodies. Here, the questions are:
1) Is there any verbal abuse in front of other colleagues, which is a clear violation of clauses of company policy?
2) Mere stated incidents, nowhere did such drastic decisions take place.
3) Is there any altercation between those two persons with their colleagues at the cafeteria or with HR during the investigation?
4) Past disciplinary actions, if any, taken against those two employees.
The questions quoted above, circumstantial evidence is more important. With all this, my opinion is HR should have given fair representation for those two employees to express their concern and should not have taken such a drastic decision of termination.
Regards,
Chandru
Bangalore
From India, Bangalore
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In an organization, policies and procedures exist apart from approved standing orders from respective state government bodies. Here, the questions are:
1) Is there any verbal abuse in front of other colleagues, which is a clear violation of clauses of company policy?
2) Mere stated incidents, nowhere did such drastic decisions take place.
3) Is there any altercation between those two persons with their colleagues at the cafeteria or with HR during the investigation?
4) Past disciplinary actions, if any, taken against those two employees.
The questions quoted above, circumstantial evidence is more important. With all this, my opinion is HR should have given fair representation for those two employees to express their concern and should not have taken such a drastic decision of termination.
Regards,
Chandru
Bangalore
From India, Bangalore
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Hi Manikandan,
First, let me say there is no excuse for a boy to slap a girl, whether in the office area or the cafeteria. That would be termed as violence and would definitely fall under the code of ethics document in your organization. However, having said that, if both have completed their probation period, and have apologized and their managers are willing to forgive them, HR can surely issue them a warning letter rather than terminate their services. I'm sure they can appeal against the termination. On the other hand, hopefully, this will serve as an example to many who would think twice about slapping anyone, whatever the provocation may be.
MaryAnn
From India, Mumbai
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First, let me say there is no excuse for a boy to slap a girl, whether in the office area or the cafeteria. That would be termed as violence and would definitely fall under the code of ethics document in your organization. However, having said that, if both have completed their probation period, and have apologized and their managers are willing to forgive them, HR can surely issue them a warning letter rather than terminate their services. I'm sure they can appeal against the termination. On the other hand, hopefully, this will serve as an example to many who would think twice about slapping anyone, whatever the provocation may be.
MaryAnn
From India, Mumbai
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Dear Saurabh,
I truly appreciate and applaud your support. This is exactly what we need to do for them.
To all those who work in Recruitment teams, request you to send a Private message to Mani , so that he can connect you with them. Incase they don't qualify for the roles in your office, please refer them to opportunities in other companies that you might know. We all truly appreciate your effort in putting their careers back on track.
Dear Mani
Please connect them with the HR who writes to you.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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I truly appreciate and applaud your support. This is exactly what we need to do for them.
To all those who work in Recruitment teams, request you to send a Private message to Mani , so that he can connect you with them. Incase they don't qualify for the roles in your office, please refer them to opportunities in other companies that you might know. We all truly appreciate your effort in putting their careers back on track.
Dear Mani
Please connect them with the HR who writes to you.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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I don't know why people on this site are so emotional. They should be punished. Only counseling, mercy, disciplinary actions, domestic inquiry will not ruin organizations. The stringent actions are also a must for organizations to run. There are some codes of conduct for every organization, and everybody has to follow it. Slapping, abusing, filthy language definitely should not be tolerated by any company.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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this is nor right because we all know that if the boy and girl will except mistake then why should the management terminate both it is wrong i think you will go to management and discuss about this
From India, Bhavnagar
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From India, Bhavnagar
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Greetings,
We all agree it's a 'punishable action'. We all agree that they shouldn't have done this, under any circumstances.
They barely started their careers and have lost their jobs, that too with such an incident! This is where we believe they have paid the price of their actions and consequently learnt a lesson.
This incident has not just taught them a lesson but everyone who witnessed or heard it. Thus reactions have already reinstated the desired result. Having said that, what do we now do with these two Human Beings? We will never support their actions, but at this moment we see the human being separate from the action committed by them. We stand objective and not emotional.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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We all agree it's a 'punishable action'. We all agree that they shouldn't have done this, under any circumstances.
They barely started their careers and have lost their jobs, that too with such an incident! This is where we believe they have paid the price of their actions and consequently learnt a lesson.
This incident has not just taught them a lesson but everyone who witnessed or heard it. Thus reactions have already reinstated the desired result. Having said that, what do we now do with these two Human Beings? We will never support their actions, but at this moment we see the human being separate from the action committed by them. We stand objective and not emotional.
Regards,
(Cite Contribution)
From India, Mumbai
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They should not be terminated whether they are in probationary or entered into an agreement due to the following:
1. The incident has occurred outside of the workplace.
2. The immediate managers are not against the accused.
3. Since the managers are not against them and the incident has not occurred at the workplace, HR cannot take such a hard decision.
However, they may be warned of their attitude in public, which affects the reputation of the company. They may also be punished by ways of demotion, a cut in monetary benefits, postponing the increment date, etc., as suggested by many learned people; but certainly not termination. The managers, HR, and the top management may kindly take a lenient view on this incident and let them continue their job.
From India, Indore
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1. The incident has occurred outside of the workplace.
2. The immediate managers are not against the accused.
3. Since the managers are not against them and the incident has not occurred at the workplace, HR cannot take such a hard decision.
However, they may be warned of their attitude in public, which affects the reputation of the company. They may also be punished by ways of demotion, a cut in monetary benefits, postponing the increment date, etc., as suggested by many learned people; but certainly not termination. The managers, HR, and the top management may kindly take a lenient view on this incident and let them continue their job.
From India, Indore
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Actually, the HR does not have any role unless receiving any complaint from either party. If anybody informs HR about an incident that happened at the cafe, the only role of HR is to either warn them not to engage in such misconduct in the future or ask them to apologize for violating any company rules during office hours. It is unjust to take such action against them, as it creates a negative image for the organization in the long run business.
From India, Calcutta
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From India, Calcutta
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Punishment cannot be taken against both of them. There is no complaint from either party. In the case of standing orders, the affected party has to register a complaint for any action to be taken based on the principle of natural justice.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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Regards
From India, Bangalore
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Further to my message where I have suggested a lenient view on this incident, I would also like to request many friends who are of the opinion that the punishment is appropriate to support the employees. In this incident, it seems that the HR has a personal grudge against the concerned employees because:
1. Managers are not against the employees.
2. The humble employees have submitted their apology letters to close the matter and resume their duties.
3. The HR has cleverly and tactically obtained the apology letters to cast the employees as culprits themselves. This way, the HR could benefit if the incident goes to the Court of Law.
4. The HR has completed their legal formalities and sought revenge on the humble employees.
I therefore, once again, request the Top Management to consider a lenient view on this incident and also ask friends to support the employees.
From India, Indore
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1. Managers are not against the employees.
2. The humble employees have submitted their apology letters to close the matter and resume their duties.
3. The HR has cleverly and tactically obtained the apology letters to cast the employees as culprits themselves. This way, the HR could benefit if the incident goes to the Court of Law.
4. The HR has completed their legal formalities and sought revenge on the humble employees.
I therefore, once again, request the Top Management to consider a lenient view on this incident and also ask friends to support the employees.
From India, Indore
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Dear Mani,
Whatever has happened, has happened. There is no need to worry. Of course, the HR department has not handled the situation well, but that does not mean you should lose all hope in life. Remember, if one door closes, another one opens. Stay positive. If both of you have the necessary skills and capabilities, I am sure you will find a better job. Just make sure to learn from this mistake and avoid repeating it in the future.
According to the law, the HR department cannot terminate an employee without giving them a chance to be heard. The company must follow the grievance procedure, and the employee should be given an opportunity to explain their side of the story.
Thank you,
Sushil Kumar
From India, Delhi
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Whatever has happened, has happened. There is no need to worry. Of course, the HR department has not handled the situation well, but that does not mean you should lose all hope in life. Remember, if one door closes, another one opens. Stay positive. If both of you have the necessary skills and capabilities, I am sure you will find a better job. Just make sure to learn from this mistake and avoid repeating it in the future.
According to the law, the HR department cannot terminate an employee without giving them a chance to be heard. The company must follow the grievance procedure, and the employee should be given an opportunity to explain their side of the story.
Thank you,
Sushil Kumar
From India, Delhi
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I principally agreed with the fact that once complaint of any type of misconduct has been registered by any employee to HR; then HR needs to hold enquiry and take necessary action to protect organization's interest.
In this case, I think type of misconduct/misbehavior exhibited by these two employees, termination is the perfect action taken by HR.
It will definitely spread the message for all others and will also be effected for long time.
From India, Pune
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In this case, I think type of misconduct/misbehavior exhibited by these two employees, termination is the perfect action taken by HR.
It will definitely spread the message for all others and will also be effected for long time.
From India, Pune
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Hi Mani,
What has happened to your friends is very unfortunate, but that is not the end of the road for that girl and boy. If they are very desperate for a job (I am not sure if they have already found employment by now), please share their resumes with me, and I will forward them to some companies.
Regards,
Darshan
From India, Bangalore
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What has happened to your friends is very unfortunate, but that is not the end of the road for that girl and boy. If they are very desperate for a job (I am not sure if they have already found employment by now), please share their resumes with me, and I will forward them to some companies.
Regards,
Darshan
From India, Bangalore
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Hi,
This is something that concerns the respective company. However, when both employees have understood their mistake and have given a written apology, the HR has no reason to extend the punishment to termination but could suspend them for such behavior in the office area.
I suggest they both approach the management, as people working are not robots but humans with feelings, and the HR should better explain such a decision.
The only people who should approach the management are the boy and the girl, and make sure the HR has no personal issues with what happened.
From India, Bangalore
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This is something that concerns the respective company. However, when both employees have understood their mistake and have given a written apology, the HR has no reason to extend the punishment to termination but could suspend them for such behavior in the office area.
I suggest they both approach the management, as people working are not robots but humans with feelings, and the HR should better explain such a decision.
The only people who should approach the management are the boy and the girl, and make sure the HR has no personal issues with what happened.
From India, Bangalore
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I don't see proper investigation being carried out at all in this case. Also, there is a hierarchy in all departments, including HR, so both of them have the right to escalate the matter irrespective of whether they are on probation or confirmed.
Every employer is liable to follow the principle of natural justice, which was totally ignored here and can constitute unfair labor practice.
From India, Mumbai
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Every employer is liable to follow the principle of natural justice, which was totally ignored here and can constitute unfair labor practice.
From India, Mumbai
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Such types of termination without a reasoned order may not hold good in the eyes of the law. Mere submission of representation is not enough. A proper Departmental Enquiry is necessary to dismiss an employee, and the same has to be accompanied by a well-reasoned order with the proper application of mind.
Action was possibly taken to maintain discipline and decorum. But why such a major penalty has been imposed is not understood. What does the disciplinary procedure of the company say about it? Is it that there never had been a similar incident in the past?
When neither party complained, who was the one to complain? What was his/her interest in lodging the complaint? These facts needed to be examined closely. The action taken has left a whole lot of unanswered questions and loopholes.
The ex-employees may as well represent to the top management in a very humble manner, requesting to be excused and reinstated with a categorical undertaking of not repeating such actions in the future.
From India, Mathura
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Action was possibly taken to maintain discipline and decorum. But why such a major penalty has been imposed is not understood. What does the disciplinary procedure of the company say about it? Is it that there never had been a similar incident in the past?
When neither party complained, who was the one to complain? What was his/her interest in lodging the complaint? These facts needed to be examined closely. The action taken has left a whole lot of unanswered questions and loopholes.
The ex-employees may as well represent to the top management in a very humble manner, requesting to be excused and reinstated with a categorical undertaking of not repeating such actions in the future.
From India, Mathura
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Hello Friend Definitely your friend can approach higher authorities for such a harsh action and as mentioned for legal action approach labour commisoner for illegal HR practices.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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I think this is a harsh punishment. Acceptance of a genuine apology along with counselling by HR is a better way of handling things in a best practices organisation.
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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Winners Don't Quit and Quitters Don't Win
Let the duo decide first what they are. Punishment for such an act should have been weighed against their utility to the organization and their performance.
Hope the matter gets resolved soon.
From India, Bhubaneswar
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Let the duo decide first what they are. Punishment for such an act should have been weighed against their utility to the organization and their performance.
Hope the matter gets resolved soon.
From India, Bhubaneswar
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Its not right punishment ...! They should not be Terminated. they should be given warning .. and this incident occured in cafeteria not while working in office.. since its their carrer problem..!
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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Dear all,
Greetings. I am really happy to have such a great forum. After going through all the replies, I can see mixed emotions.
First, let's assume that all the information given by Mr. Manikandan is true and 100% accurate. (Because it's common for people to edit their version of information. Mr. Mani, please don't take it personally.)
The incident occurred during office hours. Although it happened in the cafeteria, it is not a public one; it is owned and managed by the company. Whatever happens there would have an impact on the goodwill of the company. Hence, there is room for taking action against them.
Before taking action on the people who have committed faults/mistakes, the concerned authority must think and follow several procedures:
- It should be done legally and ethically.
- Grievances should be addressed, but judgments should be made early on.
- The purpose of the action is to maintain a healthy and peaceful working environment.
- It should not instill fear among the employees but prevent such things in the future.
- There should be no room for personal bias.
- Before finalizing, it should be determined whether it is a fault or an offense. The former is done unknowingly, while the latter is done knowingly or intentionally, understanding the impact of their actions.
- An offense can be punished following company/government policies, and a chance must be given to the one who committed it. (Everyone may have committed faults in the past. Is there anyone who has never committed any faults and never apologized?)
- If my son/daughter/brother/friend, etc., did the same, what would I do?
- If I did the same, what would I expect from my superior?
All these aspects should be considered before coming to any conclusion.
Moreover, "THE DOCTOR IS ONLY FOR THE SICK."
When everything is going smoothly, what is the NEED for HR? Is it to terminate? That can be done by anyone when they find it unsuitable or find faults in them. HR is the one who views humans as "resources" but not as material. They should be a balancing point between business and people. Nowadays, there are many who, lacking backbone, bow their heads to everything uttered by the business/company, calling themselves HR simply because they were hired by the company for the HR tag or possess HR certificates obtained by memorizing textbook answers. It has to be practiced and felt by both employees and the business.
They have to guide employees for successful professional and personal lives.
Please have some consideration. Don't expect them to behave professionally as soon as they enter the job; just like no child can run when they are born, it takes time and ups and downs.
"TRAIN LIKE A MOTHER WHEN THEY ARE DOWN AND CARE LIKE A FATHER IN THEIR FAULTS."
Thanks for your time. I would also like to thank Harsh Kumar Sharan and many others for their valuable suggestions and support for a member.
If you were in that position, would you expect the same as what you had said? (I hope you are not thinking, "I won't behave in such a way; I am mature enough." Because life is not the same for everyone and every time.) Will you justify receiving an apology letter and using it for termination? Isn't it cheap? Is he/she an HR? Did he/she lie to get that letter? Is it called decorum? Will he/she resign for that lie?
For that boy and girl, feel happy that you have escaped from such an HR and from a company that doesn't have good labor welfare practices. You have more support in CiteHR.
If I have hurt anybody by my words or deeds, I am sorry. It's my opinion, and I am ready to change if I was wrong or hurt anybody.
All young HR aspirants, please spend as much time as possible in this forum and explore every discussion, which will make you a perfect HR.
Regards,
Gerard
From India, Madras
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Greetings. I am really happy to have such a great forum. After going through all the replies, I can see mixed emotions.
First, let's assume that all the information given by Mr. Manikandan is true and 100% accurate. (Because it's common for people to edit their version of information. Mr. Mani, please don't take it personally.)
The incident occurred during office hours. Although it happened in the cafeteria, it is not a public one; it is owned and managed by the company. Whatever happens there would have an impact on the goodwill of the company. Hence, there is room for taking action against them.
Before taking action on the people who have committed faults/mistakes, the concerned authority must think and follow several procedures:
- It should be done legally and ethically.
- Grievances should be addressed, but judgments should be made early on.
- The purpose of the action is to maintain a healthy and peaceful working environment.
- It should not instill fear among the employees but prevent such things in the future.
- There should be no room for personal bias.
- Before finalizing, it should be determined whether it is a fault or an offense. The former is done unknowingly, while the latter is done knowingly or intentionally, understanding the impact of their actions.
- An offense can be punished following company/government policies, and a chance must be given to the one who committed it. (Everyone may have committed faults in the past. Is there anyone who has never committed any faults and never apologized?)
- If my son/daughter/brother/friend, etc., did the same, what would I do?
- If I did the same, what would I expect from my superior?
All these aspects should be considered before coming to any conclusion.
Moreover, "THE DOCTOR IS ONLY FOR THE SICK."
When everything is going smoothly, what is the NEED for HR? Is it to terminate? That can be done by anyone when they find it unsuitable or find faults in them. HR is the one who views humans as "resources" but not as material. They should be a balancing point between business and people. Nowadays, there are many who, lacking backbone, bow their heads to everything uttered by the business/company, calling themselves HR simply because they were hired by the company for the HR tag or possess HR certificates obtained by memorizing textbook answers. It has to be practiced and felt by both employees and the business.
They have to guide employees for successful professional and personal lives.
Please have some consideration. Don't expect them to behave professionally as soon as they enter the job; just like no child can run when they are born, it takes time and ups and downs.
"TRAIN LIKE A MOTHER WHEN THEY ARE DOWN AND CARE LIKE A FATHER IN THEIR FAULTS."
Thanks for your time. I would also like to thank Harsh Kumar Sharan and many others for their valuable suggestions and support for a member.
If you were in that position, would you expect the same as what you had said? (I hope you are not thinking, "I won't behave in such a way; I am mature enough." Because life is not the same for everyone and every time.) Will you justify receiving an apology letter and using it for termination? Isn't it cheap? Is he/she an HR? Did he/she lie to get that letter? Is it called decorum? Will he/she resign for that lie?
For that boy and girl, feel happy that you have escaped from such an HR and from a company that doesn't have good labor welfare practices. You have more support in CiteHR.
If I have hurt anybody by my words or deeds, I am sorry. It's my opinion, and I am ready to change if I was wrong or hurt anybody.
All young HR aspirants, please spend as much time as possible in this forum and explore every discussion, which will make you a perfect HR.
Regards,
Gerard
From India, Madras
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Dear All,
I have been following this thread with interest from the very day it was posted.
The fact that so many posts have poured in such a short period indicates how interesting this issue is.
Our member Manikandan, who posted a thread the very next day of his joining CiteHR, has got all the HR pros hooked. The best part is: his designation has been listed as "Programmer"!! I think he knows how to "program" the human minds - as such, he should be in HR and not dealing with machines. This is seriously meant to be a compliment (and not a sarcastic comment).
Thanks, Manikandan, for this; a nice "Vikram and Vetaal" kind of story with a question and learning at the end; that is working like a charm. Dr. Devdutt Patnaik, the "Learning Guru" of Future Group, would be proud of this.
Before I post my opinion, I have a question on an entirely different matter; please do not look for any connections with the present issue.
Kindly excuse me for this "interruption" on this highly visible and MOST ACTIVE thread:
The notice period in a company is one month, by either side. An employee gives notice on 20th Dec. to be relieved on 19th January 2011.
Now the management instead decides to relieve him early, since he has already submitted his resignation. Moreover, his work is of a confidential nature in strategic marketing, and there is no point in continuing with him any further. Can the management relieve him within a week, without any notice pay for the remaining period?
Does this happen in your company? Or, is it a popular practice?
I am not interested in the legalities at the moment; I just want to know whether it can be done.
I would be obliged if I get members' opinions on this.
My response to the current issue is a bit longer, and I shall be posting it later.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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I have been following this thread with interest from the very day it was posted.
The fact that so many posts have poured in such a short period indicates how interesting this issue is.
Our member Manikandan, who posted a thread the very next day of his joining CiteHR, has got all the HR pros hooked. The best part is: his designation has been listed as "Programmer"!! I think he knows how to "program" the human minds - as such, he should be in HR and not dealing with machines. This is seriously meant to be a compliment (and not a sarcastic comment).
Thanks, Manikandan, for this; a nice "Vikram and Vetaal" kind of story with a question and learning at the end; that is working like a charm. Dr. Devdutt Patnaik, the "Learning Guru" of Future Group, would be proud of this.
Before I post my opinion, I have a question on an entirely different matter; please do not look for any connections with the present issue.
Kindly excuse me for this "interruption" on this highly visible and MOST ACTIVE thread:
The notice period in a company is one month, by either side. An employee gives notice on 20th Dec. to be relieved on 19th January 2011.
Now the management instead decides to relieve him early, since he has already submitted his resignation. Moreover, his work is of a confidential nature in strategic marketing, and there is no point in continuing with him any further. Can the management relieve him within a week, without any notice pay for the remaining period?
Does this happen in your company? Or, is it a popular practice?
I am not interested in the legalities at the moment; I just want to know whether it can be done.
I would be obliged if I get members' opinions on this.
My response to the current issue is a bit longer, and I shall be posting it later.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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This seems to be an illogical decision made by illiterate minds. It is simply against the basic principles of HRM (Human Resource Management), which should provide an opportunity to every employee for implementation, improvement of errors, and elimination of mistakes, if any. Since we were not present at the incident, we cannot determine the exact situation. But on humanitarian grounds, they both should be given a chance; perhaps a last chance.
From India, Vadodara
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From India, Vadodara
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They should have written the apology alone without mentioning the incident. From the management point of view, it's the company's prestige problem. If left careless, the culture will spread, which in turn will affect the entire climate of the organization. But this kind of punishment is too much for the incident that happened. Instead, the management could have suspended them for some time. Management can also insist on ethical training for all of their workers.
Regards,
Rajiv
From India, Madras
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Regards,
Rajiv
From India, Madras
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meet the management & ask them for a chance,The incident took place in Cafeteria & not in work place then HR do not have any right to take action.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Rajasekar,
Wrong advice, hope you are not teaching the same to your kids. The boy and girl did the right thing. They made a mistake and apologized. The HR department did the wrong thing by terminating them and also not following the proper procedure as per the standing orders.
It's good to be honest and straightforward.
Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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Wrong advice, hope you are not teaching the same to your kids. The boy and girl did the right thing. They made a mistake and apologized. The HR department did the wrong thing by terminating them and also not following the proper procedure as per the standing orders.
It's good to be honest and straightforward.
Regards,
Viraj
From India, Pune
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Dear Mani,
Let us split the situation for an analysis: (As per your version)
1. It's a conversation leading into violence:
(Is there any other motive or past incidence that has happened in the workplace between the both or any complaints or observations passed to your HR Department)
2. No victim has complained to the HR Department:
(Only 2 associates. What are their positions in the organization? Whether the incidence has become a nuisance or in what way it has affected other morality or sanity. If anyone says yes, there are many issues which can be pointed out by many and no one works) unless one of the victims complains.
3. HR Department has called for an inquiry:
Is it a written complaint given by those 2 associates, or has the HR Department called for an inquiry on the basis of what was given in writing? If not, it is biased, where other motives caused termination.
The above is said to rethink the whole situation once again.
The question is how you are going to address the situation to the management. If you know any influential person to talk about it, you can, or it will just be a discussion.
Please update on the matter.
Regards
From India, Madras
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Let us split the situation for an analysis: (As per your version)
1. It's a conversation leading into violence:
(Is there any other motive or past incidence that has happened in the workplace between the both or any complaints or observations passed to your HR Department)
2. No victim has complained to the HR Department:
(Only 2 associates. What are their positions in the organization? Whether the incidence has become a nuisance or in what way it has affected other morality or sanity. If anyone says yes, there are many issues which can be pointed out by many and no one works) unless one of the victims complains.
3. HR Department has called for an inquiry:
Is it a written complaint given by those 2 associates, or has the HR Department called for an inquiry on the basis of what was given in writing? If not, it is biased, where other motives caused termination.
The above is said to rethink the whole situation once again.
The question is how you are going to address the situation to the management. If you know any influential person to talk about it, you can, or it will just be a discussion.
Please update on the matter.
Regards
From India, Madras
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Dear Raj Kumar,
While going through all nine pages of the positive, negative, emotional, right or wrong responses to the current issue of termination due to misbehavior of the two employees, I found a different type of problem posted by you asking for readers' opinions:
"The notice period in a company is one month, by either side. An employee gives notice on 20th Dec. to be relieved on 19th January 2011. Now, the management decides to relieve him early since he has already submitted his resignation. Moreover, his work is of a confidential nature in strategic marketing, and there is no point in continuing with him any further. Can the management relieve him within a week, without any notice pay for the remaining period?"
So, I preferred to express my opinion on the problem you mentioned.
My Views on the Issue:
Though the notice period may be one month, it is obligatory to be followed by the initiating party (in this case, the employee), but not by the responding party (Management). Since the employee has fulfilled their liability of the notice period, the management can facilitate the employee's relief at any time during the notice period at its own discretion. The management is not bound to adhere to the one month's time if it can manage the work of the employee within a shorter period. In this case, the management would not be liable to pay the salary for the days falling short of 30 days.
However, had the management desired to terminate the employee on its own, it would have been obliged to adhere to the prescribed notice period or pay the salary for the remaining days falling short of the notice period, provided the employee is not able to secure another job during that notice period. Naturally, an employee cannot hold two positions simultaneously.
In fact, the intention of the notice period is typically to allow the management to make necessary arrangements to manage the employee's work without any hindrance in the day-to-day affairs of the organization.
Hope you will agree with my opinion.
Raj Kumar Hansdah mentioned:
Dear All,
I have been following this thread with interest since the day it was posted. The fact that so many posts have poured in within such a short period indicates how interesting this issue is.
Our member Manikandan, who posted a thread the day after joining CiteHR, has engaged all the HR pros. The best part is his designation listed as "Programmer"! I think he knows how to "program" human minds; he should be in HR, not dealing with machines. This is meant as a compliment, not a sarcastic comment.
Thanks, Manikandan, for this; a nice "Vikram and Vetaal" kind of story with a question and learning at the end; it is working like a charm. Dr. Devdutt Patnaik, the "Learning Guru" of Future Group, would be proud of this.
Before I post my opinion, I have a question on an entirely different matter; please do not look for any connections with the present issue:
The notice period in a company is one month, by either side. An employee gives notice on 20th Dec. to be relieved on 19th January 2011. Now, the management decides to relieve him early since he has already submitted his resignation. Moreover, his work is of a confidential nature in strategic marketing, and there is no point in continuing with him any further. Can the management relieve him within a week, without any notice pay for the remaining period?
I would be obliged if I can get members' opinions on this.
My response to the current issue is a bit longer, and I shall be posting it later.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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While going through all nine pages of the positive, negative, emotional, right or wrong responses to the current issue of termination due to misbehavior of the two employees, I found a different type of problem posted by you asking for readers' opinions:
"The notice period in a company is one month, by either side. An employee gives notice on 20th Dec. to be relieved on 19th January 2011. Now, the management decides to relieve him early since he has already submitted his resignation. Moreover, his work is of a confidential nature in strategic marketing, and there is no point in continuing with him any further. Can the management relieve him within a week, without any notice pay for the remaining period?"
So, I preferred to express my opinion on the problem you mentioned.
My Views on the Issue:
Though the notice period may be one month, it is obligatory to be followed by the initiating party (in this case, the employee), but not by the responding party (Management). Since the employee has fulfilled their liability of the notice period, the management can facilitate the employee's relief at any time during the notice period at its own discretion. The management is not bound to adhere to the one month's time if it can manage the work of the employee within a shorter period. In this case, the management would not be liable to pay the salary for the days falling short of 30 days.
However, had the management desired to terminate the employee on its own, it would have been obliged to adhere to the prescribed notice period or pay the salary for the remaining days falling short of the notice period, provided the employee is not able to secure another job during that notice period. Naturally, an employee cannot hold two positions simultaneously.
In fact, the intention of the notice period is typically to allow the management to make necessary arrangements to manage the employee's work without any hindrance in the day-to-day affairs of the organization.
Hope you will agree with my opinion.
Raj Kumar Hansdah mentioned:
Dear All,
I have been following this thread with interest since the day it was posted. The fact that so many posts have poured in within such a short period indicates how interesting this issue is.
Our member Manikandan, who posted a thread the day after joining CiteHR, has engaged all the HR pros. The best part is his designation listed as "Programmer"! I think he knows how to "program" human minds; he should be in HR, not dealing with machines. This is meant as a compliment, not a sarcastic comment.
Thanks, Manikandan, for this; a nice "Vikram and Vetaal" kind of story with a question and learning at the end; it is working like a charm. Dr. Devdutt Patnaik, the "Learning Guru" of Future Group, would be proud of this.
Before I post my opinion, I have a question on an entirely different matter; please do not look for any connections with the present issue:
The notice period in a company is one month, by either side. An employee gives notice on 20th Dec. to be relieved on 19th January 2011. Now, the management decides to relieve him early since he has already submitted his resignation. Moreover, his work is of a confidential nature in strategic marketing, and there is no point in continuing with him any further. Can the management relieve him within a week, without any notice pay for the remaining period?
I would be obliged if I can get members' opinions on this.
My response to the current issue is a bit longer, and I shall be posting it later.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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It's unfair on the part of HR. People in HR who make such decisions should understand that they are responsible for taking care of human resources. Moreover, freshers need guidance and supervision. If almost all of us on this forum feel this act is unjust, this action must have negatively affected the people working in your organization, thus impacting productivity and morale.
Submit a request to higher-ups. That should work. If that does not work, consider leaving. Recommend to your friends to seek other opportunities. This place is not worth it.
From India, Gurgaon
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Submit a request to higher-ups. That should work. If that does not work, consider leaving. Recommend to your friends to seek other opportunities. This place is not worth it.
From India, Gurgaon
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Dear Mani,
Nothing is impossible in this world. If there is a will, then there is a way. Ask the two victims to come and speak with their management once again. If they still do not accept, it means 100.0% they have to go to the Labor Commissioner. They have to get their job by hook or by crook. Ask them to fight for their rights, and you also help them as you have received a lot of suggestions from different users.
Have a hard and tough fight; you will surely win the situation.
Thanks.
From India, Hyderabad
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Nothing is impossible in this world. If there is a will, then there is a way. Ask the two victims to come and speak with their management once again. If they still do not accept, it means 100.0% they have to go to the Labor Commissioner. They have to get their job by hook or by crook. Ask them to fight for their rights, and you also help them as you have received a lot of suggestions from different users.
Have a hard and tough fight; you will surely win the situation.
Thanks.
From India, Hyderabad
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It's a sheer act of arrogance and violations of human rights. A company of this stature should not be nesting these kinds of high-handed people who abuse authority. Tell them to approach a lawyer who would help them and sue these people out of shape.
These should not happen to others because such things are waiting to happen in IT industries.
From India, Bangalore
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These should not happen to others because such things are waiting to happen in IT industries.
From India, Bangalore
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May be HR of the organization were in a mood to set an example to the all company employees. But whatever they have done with the girl and boy that is the worst punishment.
From India, New Delhi
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From India, New Delhi
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Dear Mani,
In short, the position regarding the problem seems to revolve around three points, as follows:
(1) The employees, being on probation, could be terminated even without notice;
(2) The incident occurred in the office premises (possibly in a cafeteria, but being a part of the office/organizational premises);
(3) The acts of both employees within the office premises fall within the ambit of misconduct, being of the nature of "Discriminatory conduct, encouragement or creation of an offensive or hostile environment, intimidation or violence" (as a part of the Standing Order of the organization, as pointed out by you).
So, as a disciplinarian, I can say there was nothing wrong in the action of the management to terminate the employees, even when seen from a legal angle.
However, on humanitarian grounds, my personal opinion is that since the offense was the first one, the action of the management in terminating them was quite harsh. Since both employees were honest in admitting their guilt and reconciled, the management could have issued a warning letter to them to be careful for the future, stating that they would face termination in the event of any subsequent misconduct of a similar nature.
Of course, one flaw in the action of the management is apparent. The action of HR, of course, was not fair in directly calling both employees to explain the circumstances. HR should have routed its show-cause notice through their managers to ask for their explanation, along with the comments of their managers.
If they wish to be reinstated in the same organization, they must proceed in a systematic way. There must be a provision for submitting an appeal to the prescribed competent authority, as is normally stipulated in the company's Standing Orders. Therefore, instead of addressing any communication directly to the top management or seeking legal recourse, the employees must follow the prescribed official channels to submit their individual appeal in a mild language, assuring their good conduct for the future and requesting the authority to reinstate them.
Any legal action on their part may fail if they don't follow the prescribed channels of appeal, etc., as may be prescribed in the Standing Orders of the company. However, if their appeal is also rejected by the prescribed appellate authority, the action to take recourse by filing a legal case against the company would be quite reasonable and valid.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
09968076381
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
For more information, visit https://www.citehr.com/305038-right-punishment-please-go-through.html#ixzz190CRREN4
QUOTE=manikandan06;1377707:
Hi all,
I just wanted to share an incident that happened in my company involving my friend and wanted to hear your opinion on whether the punishment is appropriate.
I work in one of the TIER-1 software companies. Two of my friends (a boy and a girl) had a heated conversation which resulted in the boy slapping the girl. This incident took place in the cafeteria. They have known each other for the past 5 years, so the boy apologized, and the girl let the incident go without making any complaint. However, two associates who were present in the cafeteria complained to HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write an apology letter describing the incident to avoid punishment. The boy wrote that he slapped her once, and the girl wrote that she pinched the boy, so he slapped her. Upon receiving the letters, they were asked to leave.
The next day, they were informed that they had been terminated.
Is this the right punishment? They only have 10 months of experience. How will they find a job with that? They can't even apply as freshers since they graduated in 2009.
When the girl questioned her termination, HR simply said that she had given a written statement of pinching him, so they are terminating both her and the boy for the incident.
My seniors and managers feel that they were treated unfairly. Now, the girl is sitting at home with her future in doubt.
From India, Delhi
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In short, the position regarding the problem seems to revolve around three points, as follows:
(1) The employees, being on probation, could be terminated even without notice;
(2) The incident occurred in the office premises (possibly in a cafeteria, but being a part of the office/organizational premises);
(3) The acts of both employees within the office premises fall within the ambit of misconduct, being of the nature of "Discriminatory conduct, encouragement or creation of an offensive or hostile environment, intimidation or violence" (as a part of the Standing Order of the organization, as pointed out by you).
So, as a disciplinarian, I can say there was nothing wrong in the action of the management to terminate the employees, even when seen from a legal angle.
However, on humanitarian grounds, my personal opinion is that since the offense was the first one, the action of the management in terminating them was quite harsh. Since both employees were honest in admitting their guilt and reconciled, the management could have issued a warning letter to them to be careful for the future, stating that they would face termination in the event of any subsequent misconduct of a similar nature.
Of course, one flaw in the action of the management is apparent. The action of HR, of course, was not fair in directly calling both employees to explain the circumstances. HR should have routed its show-cause notice through their managers to ask for their explanation, along with the comments of their managers.
If they wish to be reinstated in the same organization, they must proceed in a systematic way. There must be a provision for submitting an appeal to the prescribed competent authority, as is normally stipulated in the company's Standing Orders. Therefore, instead of addressing any communication directly to the top management or seeking legal recourse, the employees must follow the prescribed official channels to submit their individual appeal in a mild language, assuring their good conduct for the future and requesting the authority to reinstate them.
Any legal action on their part may fail if they don't follow the prescribed channels of appeal, etc., as may be prescribed in the Standing Orders of the company. However, if their appeal is also rejected by the prescribed appellate authority, the action to take recourse by filing a legal case against the company would be quite reasonable and valid.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
09968076381
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
For more information, visit https://www.citehr.com/305038-right-punishment-please-go-through.html#ixzz190CRREN4
QUOTE=manikandan06;1377707:
Hi all,
I just wanted to share an incident that happened in my company involving my friend and wanted to hear your opinion on whether the punishment is appropriate.
I work in one of the TIER-1 software companies. Two of my friends (a boy and a girl) had a heated conversation which resulted in the boy slapping the girl. This incident took place in the cafeteria. They have known each other for the past 5 years, so the boy apologized, and the girl let the incident go without making any complaint. However, two associates who were present in the cafeteria complained to HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write an apology letter describing the incident to avoid punishment. The boy wrote that he slapped her once, and the girl wrote that she pinched the boy, so he slapped her. Upon receiving the letters, they were asked to leave.
The next day, they were informed that they had been terminated.
Is this the right punishment? They only have 10 months of experience. How will they find a job with that? They can't even apply as freshers since they graduated in 2009.
When the girl questioned her termination, HR simply said that she had given a written statement of pinching him, so they are terminating both her and the boy for the incident.
My seniors and managers feel that they were treated unfairly. Now, the girl is sitting at home with her future in doubt.
From India, Delhi
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Subject: Re: Is this the right punishment?
Please go through this.
I think since this incident happened in the cafeteria, they (the boy & girl) could have come to their senses and compromised within themselves. They need not have given anything in writing, which has become their own grave. They could have said that we have compromised among ourselves and nothing derogatory has happened. Even HR should have set an example and orally warned them after the statement in writing. They have actually misused the apology letter, which is an unfair practice.
D.P. Jayakumar
From India, Pondicherry
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Please go through this.
I think since this incident happened in the cafeteria, they (the boy & girl) could have come to their senses and compromised within themselves. They need not have given anything in writing, which has become their own grave. They could have said that we have compromised among ourselves and nothing derogatory has happened. Even HR should have set an example and orally warned them after the statement in writing. They have actually misused the apology letter, which is an unfair practice.
D.P. Jayakumar
From India, Pondicherry
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This really was a harsh decision, but I think not only HR but the management is also involved in making the decisions. In the first place, we should not blame HR. Secondly, there is a possibility that the management has felt that if somebody exhibits such behavior today and they are left unchecked, then other staff may take the management for granted, and such things or even violations of rules and regulations may occur. Hence, they may have taken such a step.
But I feel the management should have considered and given both of them a warning for their code of conduct and imposed a punishment like a 15-day suspension or deducted some percentage from their salary, but not removed them.
Regards,
YC
From India, Mumbai
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But I feel the management should have considered and given both of them a warning for their code of conduct and imposed a punishment like a 15-day suspension or deducted some percentage from their salary, but not removed them.
Regards,
YC
From India, Mumbai
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Please ask your friends to talk to the management. It was their first instance of indiscipline behavior. Your management should have warned them in writing not to repeat such behavior in the future. I believe the management should forgive them, but first, ask your friends to speak with the management.
Regards,
Rajesh Chauhan
From India, Gurgaon
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Regards,
Rajesh Chauhan
From India, Gurgaon
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Dear All,
In my opinion, the treatment from the HR side is wrong; rather, they have been warned. In my opinion, first, they should try to seek a meeting with the top management to get the termination reversed. Alternatively, they must be given a soft way out, which at least should not spoil their career.
Regards,
Vikas Mehta
From India, Chandigarh
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In my opinion, the treatment from the HR side is wrong; rather, they have been warned. In my opinion, first, they should try to seek a meeting with the top management to get the termination reversed. Alternatively, they must be given a soft way out, which at least should not spoil their career.
Regards,
Vikas Mehta
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear The Incident took pleace out of work place so the HR is not at all responsible they would have advice or even warned them not repeat but this punishment is not gud thanks shilpa
From India, Bangalore
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From India, Bangalore
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Dear Raj Kumar,
Most of the companies seldom remember the fact that they are also a very integral part of the culture that their company provides to their employees. Yes, the company can relieve the employee within a week's time if they are serving the notice period. However, there needs to be a certain code of ethics to be followed, i.e., the employee should be given at least a month's salary if they have been relieved before completing a month's notice period.
Losing morale and ethics at the top causes even the base of the organizational culture to rot. However, it is also possible that the management might have found something so disturbing regarding the work of the relieved employee that they took the drastic step of removing the employee within a week's time frame.
I still believe that employees can sometimes act weird and cheap, but the same should not be practiced by an organization.
Regards,
Octavious
From India, Mumbai
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Most of the companies seldom remember the fact that they are also a very integral part of the culture that their company provides to their employees. Yes, the company can relieve the employee within a week's time if they are serving the notice period. However, there needs to be a certain code of ethics to be followed, i.e., the employee should be given at least a month's salary if they have been relieved before completing a month's notice period.
Losing morale and ethics at the top causes even the base of the organizational culture to rot. However, it is also possible that the management might have found something so disturbing regarding the work of the relieved employee that they took the drastic step of removing the employee within a week's time frame.
I still believe that employees can sometimes act weird and cheap, but the same should not be practiced by an organization.
Regards,
Octavious
From India, Mumbai
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The question is whether they have done wrong, within the premises of the company, I feel all will say that they should not have done this.
The issue was closed when the boy apologized her and she left the incident go, didn't made any complaint. But some of associate who were present in the cafeteria complained it to the HR showing that they are concerned and want some action by the management to stop such issues in future. May be to protect the reputation of the company.
Now, it is the responsibility of the company to maintain discipline. HR is not one person, it is a department. The department is reporting to higher ups and such issues are taken up at least once to make the guidelines for future to the level of GM/ Directors of the company depending upon the size of the company.
Any company doesn't want to repeat such issues. Smaller the company, harder the decisions are. I am not supporting the decision to terminate them, but feel that HR persons are also getting instructions from above, which they can not share.
AK MATHUR
From India, Delhi
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The issue was closed when the boy apologized her and she left the incident go, didn't made any complaint. But some of associate who were present in the cafeteria complained it to the HR showing that they are concerned and want some action by the management to stop such issues in future. May be to protect the reputation of the company.
Now, it is the responsibility of the company to maintain discipline. HR is not one person, it is a department. The department is reporting to higher ups and such issues are taken up at least once to make the guidelines for future to the level of GM/ Directors of the company depending upon the size of the company.
Any company doesn't want to repeat such issues. Smaller the company, harder the decisions are. I am not supporting the decision to terminate them, but feel that HR persons are also getting instructions from above, which they can not share.
AK MATHUR
From India, Delhi
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Dear Manikandan,
Why did you think HR took such a harsh decision? Was it because they enjoy it by terminating the services of two persons? Don't get emotional, and others should not fall into the same.
The scene created by your friends is gross indiscipline in the company premises in front of everyone. If they needed the job, why did they create such a scene? Why were they not able to control themselves? First, they beat each other, and then resolved things between them. This is very bad.
I think your friends are in love with each other. So, the management must have come to the conclusion that these individuals may create such problems in the future. Or they may create a big problem that could also put the management in trouble.
Considering all these things, HR must have decided to terminate them.
From India, Bhiwani
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Why did you think HR took such a harsh decision? Was it because they enjoy it by terminating the services of two persons? Don't get emotional, and others should not fall into the same.
The scene created by your friends is gross indiscipline in the company premises in front of everyone. If they needed the job, why did they create such a scene? Why were they not able to control themselves? First, they beat each other, and then resolved things between them. This is very bad.
I think your friends are in love with each other. So, the management must have come to the conclusion that these individuals may create such problems in the future. Or they may create a big problem that could also put the management in trouble.
Considering all these things, HR must have decided to terminate them.
From India, Bhiwani
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Dear friend,
In my opinion, it's not a right decision taken by the HR for two reasons.
The first reason is as follows: when the boy slapped her, there were only two associates present who gave statements to HR. This indicates that it might be a personal issue between the two associates. If another person from the cafeteria witnessed the incident, it would have added more credibility to the situation.
The second reason is that the girl didn't want to complain about him due to their 5-year relationship. This implies that it's not a significant issue between them and they can resolve their mistake politely.
Therefore, I believe it is unnecessary to terminate them, and the situation can be easily resolved without imposing any punishment.
From India, Gurgaon
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In my opinion, it's not a right decision taken by the HR for two reasons.
The first reason is as follows: when the boy slapped her, there were only two associates present who gave statements to HR. This indicates that it might be a personal issue between the two associates. If another person from the cafeteria witnessed the incident, it would have added more credibility to the situation.
The second reason is that the girl didn't want to complain about him due to their 5-year relationship. This implies that it's not a significant issue between them and they can resolve their mistake politely.
Therefore, I believe it is unnecessary to terminate them, and the situation can be easily resolved without imposing any punishment.
From India, Gurgaon
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If there is a clause in the terms & conditions of employment that the employer has the right to terminate an employee without assigning any reason during the period of probation, action on the part of HR cannot be questioned legally.
However, employees can meet with the CEO of the company, explain the circumstances, and appeal for the withdrawal of the termination letter.
From India, Mumbai
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However, employees can meet with the CEO of the company, explain the circumstances, and appeal for the withdrawal of the termination letter.
From India, Mumbai
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As the HR is not even willing to look into it, ask them to write a letter to the top officials enclosing copies of letters to the HR and citing the rules of the Standing Order that the incident took place in the cafeteria. If still, the management does not respond, write to the labor commissioner with a cc to CEO/GM as advised by Viraj.
Regards,
T
From India, Hyderabad
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Regards,
T
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Mani,
I do agree with Viraj Ji. Sometimes HR also forgets the definition of "Human Resources - A team to maintain the positivity of employees (humans) within the organization and provide them the best atmosphere for their growth" and act like "Human De-force (demonstration)."
You have to suggest both of the terminated folks about their legal rights mentioned by Mr. Viraj.
Warm Regards,
Tarang Bauddh
Be Your Own Light... Lord Buddha
From India, Ghaziabad
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I do agree with Viraj Ji. Sometimes HR also forgets the definition of "Human Resources - A team to maintain the positivity of employees (humans) within the organization and provide them the best atmosphere for their growth" and act like "Human De-force (demonstration)."
You have to suggest both of the terminated folks about their legal rights mentioned by Mr. Viraj.
Warm Regards,
Tarang Bauddh
Be Your Own Light... Lord Buddha
From India, Ghaziabad
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Hi, one of my friends went for an interview at a software company. The salary offered to him is Rs. 15k per month. He was also asked to sign a bond for 1 year. The bond clearly states that he cannot leave the company for a year, or else he will have to refund the money, which amounts to his package of Rs. 1,80,000.
I just want to confirm if signing a bond in India is legal. Will the company sue him if he changes or leaves the job for any reason?
Please help.
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
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I just want to confirm if signing a bond in India is legal. Will the company sue him if he changes or leaves the job for any reason?
Please help.
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
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warning could have been given. sometimes we dont the management action ...it depends on the management attitude rather than the rules thanks, s.narasimhan
From India, Bangalore
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From India, Bangalore
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Both are going to management and say MCMC.
I just wanted to share an incident that happened in my company involving my friend and wanted to know your opinion on whether the punishment is appropriate.
I work in one of the TIER-1 software companies. Two of my friends (a boy and a girl) had a heated conversation that resulted in the boy slapping the girl. This incident took place in the cafeteria. They had known each other for the past 5 years, so the boy apologized to her, and she let the incident go without making any complaint. However, two associates who were present in the cafeteria reported it to HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write apology letters detailing the incident to avoid punishment. The boy wrote that he slapped her once, and the girl wrote that she pinched the boy, leading to his reaction. Upon receiving the letters, HR asked both to leave.
The next day, they were informed that they had been terminated.
Is this the right punishment? They only have 10 months of experience. How will they find a job with this record? They can't even apply as fresher since they graduated in 2009.
When the girl questioned her termination, HR simply said that since she provided a written statement of pinching him, they were terminating both her and the boy for his reaction.
My seniors and managers feel that they have been treated unfairly.
Now, the girl is sitting at home with her future in doubt.
From India, Calcutta
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I just wanted to share an incident that happened in my company involving my friend and wanted to know your opinion on whether the punishment is appropriate.
I work in one of the TIER-1 software companies. Two of my friends (a boy and a girl) had a heated conversation that resulted in the boy slapping the girl. This incident took place in the cafeteria. They had known each other for the past 5 years, so the boy apologized to her, and she let the incident go without making any complaint. However, two associates who were present in the cafeteria reported it to HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write apology letters detailing the incident to avoid punishment. The boy wrote that he slapped her once, and the girl wrote that she pinched the boy, leading to his reaction. Upon receiving the letters, HR asked both to leave.
The next day, they were informed that they had been terminated.
Is this the right punishment? They only have 10 months of experience. How will they find a job with this record? They can't even apply as fresher since they graduated in 2009.
When the girl questioned her termination, HR simply said that since she provided a written statement of pinching him, they were terminating both her and the boy for his reaction.
My seniors and managers feel that they have been treated unfairly.
Now, the girl is sitting at home with her future in doubt.
From India, Calcutta
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My dear young fellows,
I have read all the comments on this topic offered so far, and I feel that none of them have been offered keeping in view the incident in a dispassionate way. Also, none have reacted keeping in view the interest of the company. Anyway, my comments are:
1) The conduct of both the employees at a public place (canteen) is unacceptable as it vitiates the work atmosphere and strains the work culture of the company.
2) The canteen breaks are for relaxation and networking and not for venting your anger. Moreover, physical abuse with coworkers in any form is unacceptable.
3) Work ethics and personal conduct are pillars of an employee's work and cannot be compromised at any cost.
Ck Safaya Advocate and HR consultant
From India, New Delhi
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I have read all the comments on this topic offered so far, and I feel that none of them have been offered keeping in view the incident in a dispassionate way. Also, none have reacted keeping in view the interest of the company. Anyway, my comments are:
1) The conduct of both the employees at a public place (canteen) is unacceptable as it vitiates the work atmosphere and strains the work culture of the company.
2) The canteen breaks are for relaxation and networking and not for venting your anger. Moreover, physical abuse with coworkers in any form is unacceptable.
3) Work ethics and personal conduct are pillars of an employee's work and cannot be compromised at any cost.
Ck Safaya Advocate and HR consultant
From India, New Delhi
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First of all, the conduct and discipline rules of the company, or the certified standing orders of the company, or the HR policy of the organization dealing with aspects of discipline need to be verified. It is to be seen whether the procedure laid therein in dealing with such cases has been complied with or not. The terms and conditions of their appointment are also to be verified as it forms a contract between the company and them. It appears that the management in the instant case has resorted to termination simpliicitor or simple discharge. The apex court has in a few cases relating to public sectors held that such a clause of discharge simplicitor is illegal and unconstitutional as it gives unbridled power to the management and is subject to abuse by them. It held that such a clause is arbitrary and capricious and is liable to be used by the management at its whims and fancies. Whatever it may be, the principles of natural justice demand that no person shall be condemned unless heard. In cases where misconduct is committed by an employee, it is to call for an explanation and institute a departmental inquiry if the explanation is found to be unsatisfactory. Further, the punishment should be proportionate to the gravity of the alleged misconduct and the past record of the employee needs to be taken into consideration before awarding any punishment. In the circumstances, it would be prudent on the part of the employees first to make a polite representation and in case there is no favorable response, to raise a dispute before the labor commissioner concerned. This, however, would be a time-consuming and long-drawn course.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Dear All,
The action taken by HR in terminating them for the stated reason is absolutely wrong. I don't agree with any standing orders that state an employee can be terminated for slapping. HR could have asked for an explanation, and even if they were not satisfied with it, they could have warned them not to repeat it in the future. HR has been unjust in their decision. If the HODs are recommending a warning, how did HR decide to terminate them? I suggest both of them meet with top management, with the support of their HODs, to address their grievance instead of filing a complaint with the Labor Officer. I hope that top management can deliver justice for them.
Thanks,
E.K. Srinivas
From India, Hyderabad
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The action taken by HR in terminating them for the stated reason is absolutely wrong. I don't agree with any standing orders that state an employee can be terminated for slapping. HR could have asked for an explanation, and even if they were not satisfied with it, they could have warned them not to repeat it in the future. HR has been unjust in their decision. If the HODs are recommending a warning, how did HR decide to terminate them? I suggest both of them meet with top management, with the support of their HODs, to address their grievance instead of filing a complaint with the Labor Officer. I hope that top management can deliver justice for them.
Thanks,
E.K. Srinivas
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear all,
Firstly, there should be a disciplinary code of conduct in place.
Secondly, there should be a formal complaint process followed by an impartial inquiry conducted by an Enquiry Officer. It is essential to provide the individuals with an opportunity to state their case during the inquiry.
The findings of the Enquiry Officer should be shared with the individuals, and if they are found guilty, a show-cause notice should be issued, asking for an explanation as to why the proposed punishment should not be imposed on them.
Termination, considered as a severe form of punishment, should only be implemented in extreme circumstances.
There should be provisions for an appeal process within the organization. If necessary, individuals can also seek recourse by approaching labor authorities or labor courts as a last resort.
Encourage individuals to appeal to the management first, and if not satisfied, they can escalate the matter by raising an industrial dispute before the labor authorities or labor court.
It is important to note that not all HR personnel may agree with the proposed punishment, as not all individuals are authoritarian in nature. Please consider this perspective.
Regards,
Dr. Nagaraj
From India, Bangalore
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Firstly, there should be a disciplinary code of conduct in place.
Secondly, there should be a formal complaint process followed by an impartial inquiry conducted by an Enquiry Officer. It is essential to provide the individuals with an opportunity to state their case during the inquiry.
The findings of the Enquiry Officer should be shared with the individuals, and if they are found guilty, a show-cause notice should be issued, asking for an explanation as to why the proposed punishment should not be imposed on them.
Termination, considered as a severe form of punishment, should only be implemented in extreme circumstances.
There should be provisions for an appeal process within the organization. If necessary, individuals can also seek recourse by approaching labor authorities or labor courts as a last resort.
Encourage individuals to appeal to the management first, and if not satisfied, they can escalate the matter by raising an industrial dispute before the labor authorities or labor court.
It is important to note that not all HR personnel may agree with the proposed punishment, as not all individuals are authoritarian in nature. Please consider this perspective.
Regards,
Dr. Nagaraj
From India, Bangalore
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Is this the right punishment?
Absolutely not. The crux of HR (Human Resources) and the person heading that department, if worth it, should be a partner in the organization to generate and create certain irrevocable values, value additions, and human capital. 'Good God', but here is a case wherein the HR (it may be that Department or its Head) does not appear to be even remotely safeguarding these virtues, so dear to any 'Organization' worthy of being called as such. Such a thing can only happen in a misdirected group/s who rigidly believe in 'Caprice' rather than what is called 'Natural Justice'.
'Nobody should be condemned without being heard' is the first canon of this Natural Justice. A value-centered HR is supposed to exhaust this remedy before coming to any conclusion to determine the nature and extent of guilt, if any, before coming to a conclusion on such an allegation, leave alone deciding the punishment thereof by himself. Discipline is only one ingredient of a set of organizational values. But certainly, that by itself is not the whole organizational value. It's just like saying all post-graduates are graduates, but not all graduates are post-graduates. Admittedly, even if such an allegation is proven in total (even as both employees have expressed regret and remorse), the punishment should not be so disproportionate as to impose capital punishment on them. For that matter, any punishment awarded relating to a proved small or serious allegation should be justifiably commensurate with the nature of misconduct committed by the employee, minor or major.
In this case, to start with, the HR should have necessarily exercised the core value of what is called 'Organizational counseling' (Introspection Focus as to how such an unpalatable incident affects employee morale and organizational culture) to both the concerned employees, like any right-thinking and progressive organization.
If at all he had not been satisfied with their response to such an employee counseling (which is certainly not the case here), he should have sought an explanation from them. With this, the employees themselves will mostly plead defensive because their undertaking/assertions will be in conclusive writing, not just merely oral. Almost in all such cases, 99.99% of organizations close the case by suitably warning/cautioning the employee not to repeat such a breach of discipline in the future, in their own interest. Here again, the alleged misconduct took place outside the workplace/office place, and there is no tangible loss of reputation that can be construed as detrimental to the company's interests. Therefore, the plea of discipline on the part of the HR/Company is only whimsical and far-fetched. In fact, it is the other way around for both employees, where their very means of livelihood was vehemently and blatantly taken away by the Company/HR with a single stroke.
Now, even the so loosely spoken show cause appearing in this thread/link comes into the scene only after exhausting this remedy, but not before this. The reason being the 'show cause' forewarns the employee with likely disciplinary action against him when a strong prima facie case exists, which can badly affect the career graph and service of the employee, but not at the loss of the job itself.
The charge sheet only follows thereafter, seeking the employee's statement of defense if his/her explanation in writing is not found satisfactory or when there are no signs of the employee's self-reformation/organizational reformation, so to say, once again sticking/justifying to his/her negative behavior/bad attitude but not assuring the employer of not repeating such a breach of discipline.
Thereafter, a departmental inquiry will be called for, giving equal opportunity to the chargesheeted employee/officer to defend himself. Depending upon the inquiry findings, when guilt is proved with cogent reasons, punishment will then be awarded only by the authority called the 'Disciplinary Authority' through his 'Speaking Order'. Even here, the employee can make an appeal against the order and punishment to the next higher authority to be merciful.
Let the few friends in this link/thread, to whom discipline is so sacrosanct as to justify the utterly misguided HR's arbitrary/infamous action (while refreshingly many other friends in no uncertain terms expressed their total dismay/gross displeasure at HR's summary termination of the two employees), realize that in all such inconclusive (undocumented) cases, 'the benefit of the doubt' goes to the employee, not to the employer.
Therefore, let both aggrieved employees meet the highest authority in the organization, if possible with a senior/manager who gave good performance appraisals to them, along with a suitable written representation, appealing against the gross injustice meted out to them. But let that happen with a prior appointment. And this should not be the end of the tunnel, as both employees should seriously search for alternate employment, keeping the options open of engaging the services of an advocate specialist in disciplinary matters, and also that of a responsible print media like Indian Express, Business Standard, and Economic Times for further follow-up with the company.
From India, Mumbai
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Absolutely not. The crux of HR (Human Resources) and the person heading that department, if worth it, should be a partner in the organization to generate and create certain irrevocable values, value additions, and human capital. 'Good God', but here is a case wherein the HR (it may be that Department or its Head) does not appear to be even remotely safeguarding these virtues, so dear to any 'Organization' worthy of being called as such. Such a thing can only happen in a misdirected group/s who rigidly believe in 'Caprice' rather than what is called 'Natural Justice'.
'Nobody should be condemned without being heard' is the first canon of this Natural Justice. A value-centered HR is supposed to exhaust this remedy before coming to any conclusion to determine the nature and extent of guilt, if any, before coming to a conclusion on such an allegation, leave alone deciding the punishment thereof by himself. Discipline is only one ingredient of a set of organizational values. But certainly, that by itself is not the whole organizational value. It's just like saying all post-graduates are graduates, but not all graduates are post-graduates. Admittedly, even if such an allegation is proven in total (even as both employees have expressed regret and remorse), the punishment should not be so disproportionate as to impose capital punishment on them. For that matter, any punishment awarded relating to a proved small or serious allegation should be justifiably commensurate with the nature of misconduct committed by the employee, minor or major.
In this case, to start with, the HR should have necessarily exercised the core value of what is called 'Organizational counseling' (Introspection Focus as to how such an unpalatable incident affects employee morale and organizational culture) to both the concerned employees, like any right-thinking and progressive organization.
If at all he had not been satisfied with their response to such an employee counseling (which is certainly not the case here), he should have sought an explanation from them. With this, the employees themselves will mostly plead defensive because their undertaking/assertions will be in conclusive writing, not just merely oral. Almost in all such cases, 99.99% of organizations close the case by suitably warning/cautioning the employee not to repeat such a breach of discipline in the future, in their own interest. Here again, the alleged misconduct took place outside the workplace/office place, and there is no tangible loss of reputation that can be construed as detrimental to the company's interests. Therefore, the plea of discipline on the part of the HR/Company is only whimsical and far-fetched. In fact, it is the other way around for both employees, where their very means of livelihood was vehemently and blatantly taken away by the Company/HR with a single stroke.
Now, even the so loosely spoken show cause appearing in this thread/link comes into the scene only after exhausting this remedy, but not before this. The reason being the 'show cause' forewarns the employee with likely disciplinary action against him when a strong prima facie case exists, which can badly affect the career graph and service of the employee, but not at the loss of the job itself.
The charge sheet only follows thereafter, seeking the employee's statement of defense if his/her explanation in writing is not found satisfactory or when there are no signs of the employee's self-reformation/organizational reformation, so to say, once again sticking/justifying to his/her negative behavior/bad attitude but not assuring the employer of not repeating such a breach of discipline.
Thereafter, a departmental inquiry will be called for, giving equal opportunity to the chargesheeted employee/officer to defend himself. Depending upon the inquiry findings, when guilt is proved with cogent reasons, punishment will then be awarded only by the authority called the 'Disciplinary Authority' through his 'Speaking Order'. Even here, the employee can make an appeal against the order and punishment to the next higher authority to be merciful.
Let the few friends in this link/thread, to whom discipline is so sacrosanct as to justify the utterly misguided HR's arbitrary/infamous action (while refreshingly many other friends in no uncertain terms expressed their total dismay/gross displeasure at HR's summary termination of the two employees), realize that in all such inconclusive (undocumented) cases, 'the benefit of the doubt' goes to the employee, not to the employer.
Therefore, let both aggrieved employees meet the highest authority in the organization, if possible with a senior/manager who gave good performance appraisals to them, along with a suitable written representation, appealing against the gross injustice meted out to them. But let that happen with a prior appointment. And this should not be the end of the tunnel, as both employees should seriously search for alternate employment, keeping the options open of engaging the services of an advocate specialist in disciplinary matters, and also that of a responsible print media like Indian Express, Business Standard, and Economic Times for further follow-up with the company.
From India, Mumbai
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Hi,
In this case, it is a clear violation of natural justice. Even the court of law gives an opportunity to uphold natural justice. The HR might have thought that by giving such a punishment, no one would dare to repeat the same incident in public. It's for sure that without management's blessing, such a decision would never come out from the HR department.
masbee
From India
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In this case, it is a clear violation of natural justice. Even the court of law gives an opportunity to uphold natural justice. The HR might have thought that by giving such a punishment, no one would dare to repeat the same incident in public. It's for sure that without management's blessing, such a decision would never come out from the HR department.
masbee
From India
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Dear Addressee,
This is irrelevant to terminate both even after taking a written statement. At least, they should be given a warning, even though the situation was in a cafe, and they themselves didn't approach the management. Well, this isn't the right thing; please, both of you need to approach the upper management to ask why and somehow clear it.
Regards,
Ahmed Ab Khan
From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
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This is irrelevant to terminate both even after taking a written statement. At least, they should be given a warning, even though the situation was in a cafe, and they themselves didn't approach the management. Well, this isn't the right thing; please, both of you need to approach the upper management to ask why and somehow clear it.
Regards,
Ahmed Ab Khan
From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
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Dear virajgovekar (and other members),
Thanks for your comments. I wonder how many noticed this. The interruption was INTENDED. As someone has also commented rightly as quoted below; "none of them have been offered keeping in view the incident in a dispassionate way. Also, none have reacted keeping in view the interest of the company."
It is good to be emotional, but there is a difference between SYMPATHY and EMPATHY.
I wanted to provide a SPEED-BREAKER, similar to the Circuit Breaker installed in Stock Exchanges when activities are stopped if it's found that emotional frenzy has caused a highly volatile situation. At times, such excessive emotional outburst finds an emotional chord with others and leads to mob frenzy, resulting in 'workplace violence' as we keep seeing all around us. As HR professionals, we should be able to pick such emotional situations (Trade Unions are far more experienced in this) and ensure rationality and order. This thread provides a perfect live Case Study.
Kindly see the views offered by experienced and seasoned HR professionals like Cite Contribution, Octavious, PSDhingra, to name a few. Do you think they are inhuman, unemotional, or sadistic?
What Octavious and Cite Contribution have contributed in this thread not only presents a balanced, rational viewpoint but also provides universal principles and guidelines for the execution of HR functions, and I agree with their opinion in toto. (I would request members who are interested in 'learning' to go through their responses again.)
To revisit the matter once again, it reminds me of another case. This was before the Domestic Violence Act 2005 came into force. A couple worked in the same organization at the same location. The husband would often quarrel, scold, and abuse the wife in full public view. At times, he would often slap the wife. The wife was a typical Indian wife who would accept everything and never complain against the husband, even when asked to do so. The management was fair and had great concern for its people and did not want to do anything that would affect the employment and livelihood of the couple. When counseling and verbal warning were ineffective, the management contacted the Police so that the husband can be advised strongly. The Police, however, refused to intervene without a written complaint from the wife and said that unless there is 'real violence' with injuries that can be supported by Medical examination, they cannot intervene. Ultimately, the management posted them together elsewhere and let the matter lie. The difference between this case and the present one lies in the fact that the couple were Class IV employees in the Public Health Department in a PSU, which is known for 'not terminating employees except under rare circumstances of financial dishonesty.'
Now, what we are talking here of; it is a TIER - 1 SOFTWARE COMPANY (which presumably is in the private sector)!! The 'actors' are young, highly educated Software Professionals, and the 'scene' is the office cafeteria - whether permitted to run by Cafe Coffee Day or Barista - still remains a part of the workplace (open, visible, and accessible to other employees).
At a more humane angle; Generally, slapping in public does not take place in a day. More than a spur-of-the-moment act, it could have progressed from slapping in private and an increase in the frequency of slapping. Being known to each other for 5 long years and then settling down for 10 months in a job in Tier I software companies and no known plans for matrimony. Can it not be an argument on this topic and the pleadings or pressure from the girl on this? I say this with some conviction because I have NEVER HEARD OF a colleague arguing loudly with another colleague and then SLAPPING HER, while discussing some work assignments and programming logic dealing with computer architecture or software. Has anyone ever seen such a great "learning" organization? Many young employees spend days and nights in the company campus as they offer 5-star ambiance and comforts. In fact, Mr. Narayan Murthy of Infosys had taken out an appeal not to do this. Does working on projects for long stretches give a male employee the right to slap her female colleague in full public view? I do not know how many female budding engineers would rush to join such a wonderful software company?
Is it not a GREAT Employer Branding Strategy: COME, JOIN US!! WE are the #1 Software Company in India!! We ALSO SLAP the female colleagues in COMPANY CAFETERIA!!!!
- Also, some companies provide "dating allowance"; but do they also provide a salary for using the office cafeteria for such personal discussions for long frequent hours? (If you assume it was an official discussion, during which a female gets slapped around, then it's fine!)
- I think one must also understand on how the girl was "pressurized/influenced" to put up the FALSE EXCUSE that she "pinched" him which resulted in the slap.
On a more "empathical" front: How many male members of CiteHR would have any of their unmarried female relatives (sister/daughter, etc.) continue in such a situation, and how many female members would be happy to have the colleague/boyfriend of their unmarried female relative (or self, if unmarried) have a relationship of 5 years and then getting slapped in the company cafeteria? What would one think of such a company if it allows (or even nurtures) such organizational culture?
The more you keep analyzing this issue, the deeper you go, one keeps finding that such acts should not be tolerated: it is bad for the company's image and culture as well as business as they depend heavily on this, ignoring/excusing such acts is bad for the society at large (and companies function within the environment).
My interest in this thread turned to dismay when I found how HR professionals can be affected by the "sheep" mentality of following the one ahead; without applying any reason or logic; and building upon or extending what the one ahead has said.
Apart from challenging the management's decision, we find some suggestions such as: "they should go to the Labour Inspector": without commenting on this and initiating the debate on "whether considered workman or not"; I would say it is unlikely that S/W professionals of a Tier -I company would be happy doing this. As can be seen in my other posts, I have always stood for the cause of employees, 'principles of natural justice,' and 'fairness' as I find members recommending/discussing such issues which harm the interest of employees, such as: bifurcating the minimum wages into several heads (so as to reduce payments of statutory dues and benefits which rest on Basic Pay), including the intervening holidays and closed days during a spell of leave (so as to reduce the leave balance); steps to prevent accumulation and encashment of leaves, denial of maternity benefits, etc. Here, I find the same arguments being used in a wrong situation.
This is an incidence "which would shake the collective conscience" and thus would pass the scrutiny of law in case of termination. One must note that there are provisions of "exemplary punishments" and also the concept of having a saving clause in the Standing Orders while giving the list of misconducts as "including but not restricted to" about the "misconducts not covered under those specified."
Also, as Cite Contribution has pointed out, the fact about "employment at will" in Private sectors, and also "In a software firm the environment remains sensitive. Even very little behavior comes under the scanner. The HR's have to be doubly sure of employee behavior in office premises. It sets the code of conduct for them."
Why should there be job security for employees arguing in the cafeteria and indulging in violent "unappetizing" activity? Are not employees in the private sector been terminated for lesser 'crimes'? If you do not believe, "research" and you'll find countless such cases and also cases where the very same HR's recommend termination with impunity under the garb of "ENFORCING DISCIPLINE." If an employee is coming late (one knows how frequently urban transport and traffic jams cause this) or has been absent (due to reasons/tragedies not under his control); it's all right to TERMINATE HIM AND MAKE HIS FAMILY SUFFER??
However, when young professional employees indulge in such activities, as the one depicted; during company time, within company premises; should not a company take appropriate action, under such extenuating circumstances or let the general impression that "everything goes here; if you are working hard, you can do whatever you want including slapping other employees!!"
I find a general lack of perspective and 'looking at the larger picture.' However, what I find uplifting is a few stray voices of dissent, based on cool rationality, which helps in avoiding it to degenerate (term as used in linear programming); like the ones submitted by abksatara, giridhar alwar, babsi, yuyudin, MaryAnn Drego, pravinpraj, oohey, akmathur13, gbvarik07, ramachandraiah satishan.
It is good to have a good heart; but much better to apply a clear mind in professional situations.
Those who may feel hurt at my opinion, and there would be many considering the 119 posts; I would like to clarify that I am only performing my duties as a moderator, and I find the views in this most popular and active thread; getting lopsided or skewed in one direction; which, among other things, may discourage others from presenting a different viewpoint.
Warm regards.
[QUOTE=safayaifci;1381435]My dear young fellows,
I have read all the comments on this topic offered so far and I feel that none of them have been offered keeping the view the incident in a dispassionate way. Also, none have reacted keeping in view
From India, Delhi
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Thanks for your comments. I wonder how many noticed this. The interruption was INTENDED. As someone has also commented rightly as quoted below; "none of them have been offered keeping in view the incident in a dispassionate way. Also, none have reacted keeping in view the interest of the company."
It is good to be emotional, but there is a difference between SYMPATHY and EMPATHY.
I wanted to provide a SPEED-BREAKER, similar to the Circuit Breaker installed in Stock Exchanges when activities are stopped if it's found that emotional frenzy has caused a highly volatile situation. At times, such excessive emotional outburst finds an emotional chord with others and leads to mob frenzy, resulting in 'workplace violence' as we keep seeing all around us. As HR professionals, we should be able to pick such emotional situations (Trade Unions are far more experienced in this) and ensure rationality and order. This thread provides a perfect live Case Study.
Kindly see the views offered by experienced and seasoned HR professionals like Cite Contribution, Octavious, PSDhingra, to name a few. Do you think they are inhuman, unemotional, or sadistic?
What Octavious and Cite Contribution have contributed in this thread not only presents a balanced, rational viewpoint but also provides universal principles and guidelines for the execution of HR functions, and I agree with their opinion in toto. (I would request members who are interested in 'learning' to go through their responses again.)
To revisit the matter once again, it reminds me of another case. This was before the Domestic Violence Act 2005 came into force. A couple worked in the same organization at the same location. The husband would often quarrel, scold, and abuse the wife in full public view. At times, he would often slap the wife. The wife was a typical Indian wife who would accept everything and never complain against the husband, even when asked to do so. The management was fair and had great concern for its people and did not want to do anything that would affect the employment and livelihood of the couple. When counseling and verbal warning were ineffective, the management contacted the Police so that the husband can be advised strongly. The Police, however, refused to intervene without a written complaint from the wife and said that unless there is 'real violence' with injuries that can be supported by Medical examination, they cannot intervene. Ultimately, the management posted them together elsewhere and let the matter lie. The difference between this case and the present one lies in the fact that the couple were Class IV employees in the Public Health Department in a PSU, which is known for 'not terminating employees except under rare circumstances of financial dishonesty.'
Now, what we are talking here of; it is a TIER - 1 SOFTWARE COMPANY (which presumably is in the private sector)!! The 'actors' are young, highly educated Software Professionals, and the 'scene' is the office cafeteria - whether permitted to run by Cafe Coffee Day or Barista - still remains a part of the workplace (open, visible, and accessible to other employees).
At a more humane angle; Generally, slapping in public does not take place in a day. More than a spur-of-the-moment act, it could have progressed from slapping in private and an increase in the frequency of slapping. Being known to each other for 5 long years and then settling down for 10 months in a job in Tier I software companies and no known plans for matrimony. Can it not be an argument on this topic and the pleadings or pressure from the girl on this? I say this with some conviction because I have NEVER HEARD OF a colleague arguing loudly with another colleague and then SLAPPING HER, while discussing some work assignments and programming logic dealing with computer architecture or software. Has anyone ever seen such a great "learning" organization? Many young employees spend days and nights in the company campus as they offer 5-star ambiance and comforts. In fact, Mr. Narayan Murthy of Infosys had taken out an appeal not to do this. Does working on projects for long stretches give a male employee the right to slap her female colleague in full public view? I do not know how many female budding engineers would rush to join such a wonderful software company?
Is it not a GREAT Employer Branding Strategy: COME, JOIN US!! WE are the #1 Software Company in India!! We ALSO SLAP the female colleagues in COMPANY CAFETERIA!!!!
- Also, some companies provide "dating allowance"; but do they also provide a salary for using the office cafeteria for such personal discussions for long frequent hours? (If you assume it was an official discussion, during which a female gets slapped around, then it's fine!)
- I think one must also understand on how the girl was "pressurized/influenced" to put up the FALSE EXCUSE that she "pinched" him which resulted in the slap.
On a more "empathical" front: How many male members of CiteHR would have any of their unmarried female relatives (sister/daughter, etc.) continue in such a situation, and how many female members would be happy to have the colleague/boyfriend of their unmarried female relative (or self, if unmarried) have a relationship of 5 years and then getting slapped in the company cafeteria? What would one think of such a company if it allows (or even nurtures) such organizational culture?
The more you keep analyzing this issue, the deeper you go, one keeps finding that such acts should not be tolerated: it is bad for the company's image and culture as well as business as they depend heavily on this, ignoring/excusing such acts is bad for the society at large (and companies function within the environment).
My interest in this thread turned to dismay when I found how HR professionals can be affected by the "sheep" mentality of following the one ahead; without applying any reason or logic; and building upon or extending what the one ahead has said.
Apart from challenging the management's decision, we find some suggestions such as: "they should go to the Labour Inspector": without commenting on this and initiating the debate on "whether considered workman or not"; I would say it is unlikely that S/W professionals of a Tier -I company would be happy doing this. As can be seen in my other posts, I have always stood for the cause of employees, 'principles of natural justice,' and 'fairness' as I find members recommending/discussing such issues which harm the interest of employees, such as: bifurcating the minimum wages into several heads (so as to reduce payments of statutory dues and benefits which rest on Basic Pay), including the intervening holidays and closed days during a spell of leave (so as to reduce the leave balance); steps to prevent accumulation and encashment of leaves, denial of maternity benefits, etc. Here, I find the same arguments being used in a wrong situation.
This is an incidence "which would shake the collective conscience" and thus would pass the scrutiny of law in case of termination. One must note that there are provisions of "exemplary punishments" and also the concept of having a saving clause in the Standing Orders while giving the list of misconducts as "including but not restricted to" about the "misconducts not covered under those specified."
Also, as Cite Contribution has pointed out, the fact about "employment at will" in Private sectors, and also "In a software firm the environment remains sensitive. Even very little behavior comes under the scanner. The HR's have to be doubly sure of employee behavior in office premises. It sets the code of conduct for them."
Why should there be job security for employees arguing in the cafeteria and indulging in violent "unappetizing" activity? Are not employees in the private sector been terminated for lesser 'crimes'? If you do not believe, "research" and you'll find countless such cases and also cases where the very same HR's recommend termination with impunity under the garb of "ENFORCING DISCIPLINE." If an employee is coming late (one knows how frequently urban transport and traffic jams cause this) or has been absent (due to reasons/tragedies not under his control); it's all right to TERMINATE HIM AND MAKE HIS FAMILY SUFFER??
However, when young professional employees indulge in such activities, as the one depicted; during company time, within company premises; should not a company take appropriate action, under such extenuating circumstances or let the general impression that "everything goes here; if you are working hard, you can do whatever you want including slapping other employees!!"
I find a general lack of perspective and 'looking at the larger picture.' However, what I find uplifting is a few stray voices of dissent, based on cool rationality, which helps in avoiding it to degenerate (term as used in linear programming); like the ones submitted by abksatara, giridhar alwar, babsi, yuyudin, MaryAnn Drego, pravinpraj, oohey, akmathur13, gbvarik07, ramachandraiah satishan.
It is good to have a good heart; but much better to apply a clear mind in professional situations.
Those who may feel hurt at my opinion, and there would be many considering the 119 posts; I would like to clarify that I am only performing my duties as a moderator, and I find the views in this most popular and active thread; getting lopsided or skewed in one direction; which, among other things, may discourage others from presenting a different viewpoint.
Warm regards.
[QUOTE=safayaifci;1381435]My dear young fellows,
I have read all the comments on this topic offered so far and I feel that none of them have been offered keeping the view the incident in a dispassionate way. Also, none have reacted keeping in view
From India, Delhi
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1) Termination of this sort is not at all fair and goes against natural justice. If your company is so hell-bent on discipline, HR should have first suspended them pending an inquiry. Post that, a domestic inquiry could have been conducted. During the inquiry, when both parties (the boy and girl) do not have any problems considering the discipline, management can think of giving a warning or suspending them for 3-4 days at most, but termination is highly inhuman. Especially when dealing with young people freshly out of college, you can expect such incidents.
2) We had a small fight among two GETs, both males, and one threatened to beat the other. We didn't even issue any notice. A strong verbal warning from top management was enough for them to maintain discipline.
3) Also, HR should check whether these two individuals were involved in any past indiscipline before making such an extreme decision.
Regards,
Dhananjay Bhandari
Human Resources
Hindalco Industries Ltd
From India, Pune
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2) We had a small fight among two GETs, both males, and one threatened to beat the other. We didn't even issue any notice. A strong verbal warning from top management was enough for them to maintain discipline.
3) Also, HR should check whether these two individuals were involved in any past indiscipline before making such an extreme decision.
Regards,
Dhananjay Bhandari
Human Resources
Hindalco Industries Ltd
From India, Pune
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