Case of Permanent Employee Misconduct
I want to bring to your attention a case happening in my organization. We have a permanent sweeper (female) working in our company. The duties assigned to her are from 9 AM to 11:30 AM. She is supposed to come and clean the premises, including sweeping and dusting of tables, etc.
Often, she arrives late, even after the executives arrive. As a result, either the cleaning work is not done or is only partially completed, yet she receives her full salary every month. She has 100% support from the workers' union and has now even started misbehaving with other staff when asked to perform certain tasks for which she is employed. We attempted to transfer her to our other office, but the union strongly opposes it and has issued threats. We are unable to terminate her employment as she is a permanent staff member on our payroll. My boss has tasked me, as the male HR manager, with handling this case and reaching a practical solution.
I would appreciate any suggestions you may have.
Regards,
Dash
From India, Hyderabad
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9I want to bring to your attention a case happening in my organization. We have a permanent sweeper (female) working in our company. The duties assigned to her are from 9 AM to 11:30 AM. She is supposed to come and clean the premises, including sweeping and dusting of tables, etc.
Often, she arrives late, even after the executives arrive. As a result, either the cleaning work is not done or is only partially completed, yet she receives her full salary every month. She has 100% support from the workers' union and has now even started misbehaving with other staff when asked to perform certain tasks for which she is employed. We attempted to transfer her to our other office, but the union strongly opposes it and has issued threats. We are unable to terminate her employment as she is a permanent staff member on our payroll. My boss has tasked me, as the male HR manager, with handling this case and reaching a practical solution.
I would appreciate any suggestions you may have.
Regards,
Dash
From India, Hyderabad
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Sir, I forgot to mention that I have counseled her several times alongwith others but no result. A Dash
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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I suggest that you take the matter to a disciplinary hearing. Invite a third party to chair the disciplinary. You can present all your evidence, time and attendance sheets, as well as your counseling sessions to prove your case against her in this manner. Union representatives are allowed in disciplinary matters; invite the representative to sit in on the meeting, ask questions, and so forth.
If the chairperson finds that the employee is not guilty, you will have the disciplinary on record if she does not get her act together.
Regards,
Clare
(You can contact me for more information on how to conduct a disciplinary at [Email Removed For Privacy Reasons])
From India, Ghaziabad
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If the chairperson finds that the employee is not guilty, you will have the disciplinary on record if she does not get her act together.
Regards,
Clare
(You can contact me for more information on how to conduct a disciplinary at [Email Removed For Privacy Reasons])
From India, Ghaziabad
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Unions would be in banks, public sector, government, etc. For what you've spelled out, that's not known. However, there is just one thing we have done in the private sector; we've outsourced every one of these activities. Therefore, we have no worries of this kind. If someone isn't performing to the level we expect, we just ask the contractor to change the person. If the contractor doesn't perform as per our standards, we look for another who will match our level. I'm not sure if this will apply in case you are in one of those sectors.
Another serious issue in this is when there are so many things to worry about in this competitive age, you wasting time to oust a "sweeper" is sad.
Try to fend, try to mend, try to send, or lastly try to bend (not before the "sweeper" but before the management, and ask them to carry out this task. At best, they may want to rate you as not competent. So what? The world doesn't end there.
I would suggest that you take more time and tell your boss, "I'm thinking about a solution." They may ask what? Tell them, "I'm still thinking, weighing the pros and cons, and will let them know as soon as you've finished thinking out a solution." You might get solutions just without doing anything (This was the strategy one very well-known and wise man of India used to do).
Having said this, keep collecting data, and think about how you can sort out this problem without losing your shirt.
From India, Hyderabad
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Another serious issue in this is when there are so many things to worry about in this competitive age, you wasting time to oust a "sweeper" is sad.
Try to fend, try to mend, try to send, or lastly try to bend (not before the "sweeper" but before the management, and ask them to carry out this task. At best, they may want to rate you as not competent. So what? The world doesn't end there.
I would suggest that you take more time and tell your boss, "I'm thinking about a solution." They may ask what? Tell them, "I'm still thinking, weighing the pros and cons, and will let them know as soon as you've finished thinking out a solution." You might get solutions just without doing anything (This was the strategy one very well-known and wise man of India used to do).
Having said this, keep collecting data, and think about how you can sort out this problem without losing your shirt.
From India, Hyderabad
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I want to bring to your attention a case happening in my organization. We have a permanent female sweeper working in our company. The duties assigned to her are from 9 AM to 11:30 AM. She is supposed to come in, clean the premises including sweeping and dusting tables, etc. Often, she arrives late, usually after the executives. As a result, either the cleaning work is not completed or is only partially done, even though she receives her full salary every month. She enjoys 100% support from the worker's union and has now begun to behave poorly towards other staff members when asked to perform the tasks she is employed for. We attempted to transfer her to our other office, but the union vehemently opposes it and even threatens us. We are unable to terminate her employment as she is a permanent member of our payroll. My boss has tasked me, as the male HR Manager, with handling this situation and finding a practical remedy. I am seeking suggestions, please.
Proposed Solution
Now that you are really in serious trouble, a solution can be implemented by issuing a memo to the employee. This would serve as an initial warning, and if the behavior persists, we can take further legal action.
Regards,
A Dash
From Egypt, Cairo
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Proposed Solution
Now that you are really in serious trouble, a solution can be implemented by issuing a memo to the employee. This would serve as an initial warning, and if the behavior persists, we can take further legal action.
Regards,
A Dash
From Egypt, Cairo
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Language for Issuing a Memo to a Sweeper
In which language will you issue a memo for a sweeper? If you want to make this legal, be sure to lose a battle as the Union, the Labor Department, Commissioner of Labor, the Politician, etc., will wait for opportunities to gain their pound of "flesh" out of this. Opportunities or political people will enter into the fray to gain mileage - "exploitation of the underprivileged," etc. It'll be "head you lose," "tails" I win.
From India, Hyderabad
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In which language will you issue a memo for a sweeper? If you want to make this legal, be sure to lose a battle as the Union, the Labor Department, Commissioner of Labor, the Politician, etc., will wait for opportunities to gain their pound of "flesh" out of this. Opportunities or political people will enter into the fray to gain mileage - "exploitation of the underprivileged," etc. It'll be "head you lose," "tails" I win.
From India, Hyderabad
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what is the answer u are giving us mr what head what tail, simple sweeper u cannot handle is it big issue?
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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I want to bring to your attention a case happening in my organization. We have a permanent female sweeper working in our company. The duties assigned to her are from 9 AM to 11:30 AM. She is supposed to come, clean the premises, including sweeping and dusting the tables, etc.
Often, she arrives late, sometimes after the executives. Consequently, the cleaning work is either not completed or done partially, even though she receives a full salary every month. She enjoys full support from the workers' union and has recently started misbehaving with other staff when asked to perform her designated tasks. Despite our attempts to transfer her to another office, the union strongly opposes the move and even threatens us. Due to her permanent status on our payroll, termination is not an option. My boss has tasked me, as the male HR Manager, with managing this situation and finding a practical remedy.
I would appreciate your suggestions on how to proceed.
Thank you,
Regards,
A Dash
From Bangladesh, Dhaka
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Often, she arrives late, sometimes after the executives. Consequently, the cleaning work is either not completed or done partially, even though she receives a full salary every month. She enjoys full support from the workers' union and has recently started misbehaving with other staff when asked to perform her designated tasks. Despite our attempts to transfer her to another office, the union strongly opposes the move and even threatens us. Due to her permanent status on our payroll, termination is not an option. My boss has tasked me, as the male HR Manager, with managing this situation and finding a practical remedy.
I would appreciate your suggestions on how to proceed.
Thank you,
Regards,
A Dash
From Bangladesh, Dhaka
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Wow, I've been bowled over with such remarkable appreciation, "What is the answer you are giving us, Mr. What Head? What tail? Simple sweeper you cannot handle; is it a big issue?" Wonder if you've had any experience with trade unions. If you did, I'm afraid you would not make this statement, "Simple sweeper you cannot handle; is it a big issue?" It's not like removing one from our household.
I would still advise being extremely careful, my friend, when dealing with this case.
From India, Hyderabad
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I would still advise being extremely careful, my friend, when dealing with this case.
From India, Hyderabad
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Steps to Manage Employee Performance
Do the things in the following way and sequence:
- Make an activity list for her for every task.
- Allot a specific time for each task.
- Ensure there are a couple of breaks as per factory law; in your case, it seems one is okay.
- Explain the activity or duty list to the lady in the presence of one union person from her side.
- Sign-off the documents as an agreement.
- Create a checklist of the same activity with a standard format to generate a record of her performance or non-performance.
- Agree on the goal, i.e., she has to complete 90% of the tasks daily.
- Daily, ask her to get it signed by someone in the office as third-party verification. Keep changing the verification authority to have consensus and record her performance and non-performance.
- Observe her for a month, and then you will know what to do.
Thanks,
Manish K
From United States, Wilmington
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Do the things in the following way and sequence:
- Make an activity list for her for every task.
- Allot a specific time for each task.
- Ensure there are a couple of breaks as per factory law; in your case, it seems one is okay.
- Explain the activity or duty list to the lady in the presence of one union person from her side.
- Sign-off the documents as an agreement.
- Create a checklist of the same activity with a standard format to generate a record of her performance or non-performance.
- Agree on the goal, i.e., she has to complete 90% of the tasks daily.
- Daily, ask her to get it signed by someone in the office as third-party verification. Keep changing the verification authority to have consensus and record her performance and non-performance.
- Observe her for a month, and then you will know what to do.
Thanks,
Manish K
From United States, Wilmington
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Disciplining a female worker, especially one in the lowest rung cadre, is very difficult, particularly when the union interferes in every matter. Unless you have a very strong will and a "come what may" attitude, it will be a challenging proposition. It is easy to simply suggest some measures, but implementation is cumbersome. Perhaps you can build a very strong case against her for dereliction of duty if you gather solid documentation. However, a word of caution - she may bring up a sexual harassment case against you as well, and without a doubt, she may take you to court. Considering the mood of the labor department and the elaborate legal process involved, proving her guilty is a significant task but definitely not impossible, provided your management fully supports you. Be cautious both within and outside your premises.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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Regards
From India, Bangalore
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The situation you have mentioned is quite grave, but there is nothing that can't be sorted out. If you can't sack this person, just do a few things:
1. Call a meeting of union leaders and discuss it with them; see if they can provide you with a solution.
2. Transfer or promote that employee to another department with full-time duties where she will be required to work or stay in the office for 8-9 hours. If she is late or absent, make deductions as per company rules.
3. Assign the job of cleaning, etc., to someone on a contract basis.
If nothing gets resolved and the management is prepared to take a stand with the union, start issuing notices and memos to the employee. If there is no improvement, terminate the employee.
Best wishes.
From India, Delhi
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1. Call a meeting of union leaders and discuss it with them; see if they can provide you with a solution.
2. Transfer or promote that employee to another department with full-time duties where she will be required to work or stay in the office for 8-9 hours. If she is late or absent, make deductions as per company rules.
3. Assign the job of cleaning, etc., to someone on a contract basis.
If nothing gets resolved and the management is prepared to take a stand with the union, start issuing notices and memos to the employee. If there is no improvement, terminate the employee.
Best wishes.
From India, Delhi
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Please accept my sincere thanks for all your contributions. I agree with your opinions for sorting the problem. The following matters are interrupting:
1. She is the widow of an employee who passed away on duty, and the management has given her permanent employment (necessary orders issued).
2. She may be the relative of the Worker Union Secretary (from what I heard), and the entire Union stands for her.
3. I discussed the same with my boss in detail, but he remains quiet before the union meeting regarding the issue.
4. Our day-to-day work is being hampered because the vacancy is filled by her, and we cannot employ anybody else. Sometimes we have to hire a casual worker to clean the premises, and I adjust the wages by adding to some office expenses. However, this cannot continue for long.
5. My boss tells me, "You are the HR, use your brain and sort out the whole thing." But he also fears the consequences if we sack the employee.
6. As she is illiterate, it is very difficult to handle.
Please consider the above facts as well. I am really fed up with the issue. Please help me sort it out.
Regards,
A Dash
From India, Hyderabad
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1. She is the widow of an employee who passed away on duty, and the management has given her permanent employment (necessary orders issued).
2. She may be the relative of the Worker Union Secretary (from what I heard), and the entire Union stands for her.
3. I discussed the same with my boss in detail, but he remains quiet before the union meeting regarding the issue.
4. Our day-to-day work is being hampered because the vacancy is filled by her, and we cannot employ anybody else. Sometimes we have to hire a casual worker to clean the premises, and I adjust the wages by adding to some office expenses. However, this cannot continue for long.
5. My boss tells me, "You are the HR, use your brain and sort out the whole thing." But he also fears the consequences if we sack the employee.
6. As she is illiterate, it is very difficult to handle.
Please consider the above facts as well. I am really fed up with the issue. Please help me sort it out.
Regards,
A Dash
From India, Hyderabad
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A Notable Case from ACC, Ltd., Mumbai, 1994
I'm pleased to see the contributions of both loginmiraclelogistics and Navneet Kumar Sarin. However, I've got to tell you about one case in particular that happened in ACC, Ltd., Mumbai in 1994.
It involved a very senior Project Officer, a South Indian, who was second in the hierarchy and on whom at least Rs. 3500 crores were riding, with a string of cement plants being put up in A.P. and Karnataka.
He gained a lot of experience having worked in the factories on all aspects from quarry to finished product, plus maintaining the production levels to an all-time high with efficient maintenance schedules. He was a very sought-after man and in recognition, ACC moved him to the project office where they were handling turnkey projects and had got into the business of putting up several mini cement plants all over the country. He worked very sincerely and put a lot of effort to attain the position he held. His ruthlessness for efficiency and commitment to delivery made him a hard taskmaster. He used to expect the same from his staff too to meet his deadlines, so he was popular with some and wasn't with most young people who would generally take frequent time off during a day apart from the regular lunch and break periods.
One among them was particularly unhappy with this gentleman and would frequently end up in an argument, generally resorting to speaking in Marathi to express his dissatisfaction and let it be known to everyone else. He began slandering this gentleman and also started giving it a color that this gentleman has a hate for Marathi Manoos and that he is being targeted.
One morning while taking the lift to the workplace, both of them were on the same lift, and the young man deliberately elbowed the senior in his ribs. Writhing in pain, he shouted at him and as soon as he came into the office, called his secretary and slammed a notice of attack. When the memo was issued to him, he took it, tore his shirt, and walked out of the Project Manager's office yelling in a manner that he was attacked by the boss and was shoved out tearing his shirt.
He quickly rounded off the people who were with him on the lift that morning and produced witnesses to testify that the young man was yelled at in the lift for no fault of his. The matter was reported to the union who immediately reached the office and demanded that the Project Manager better apologize to the young man in front of everyone in the office and also take back the memo. This was not going to happen, so they shouted and yelled for a while and demanded that an inquiry be conducted and punishment given for harassing the young man for a number of months now. They also brought the findings of this young man's last appraisal and used that too as a tool to slap all the charges against this Project Officer. The union had the backing of the Shiv Sena. Things went out of hand and out of control. The inquiry went on for a long time, and this gentleman was on a suspension. After several months, they were forced to dismiss him. He went to court, but all evidence was against him, and so finally, this man lost everything, including his gratuity. He could scrounge home with his PF, and later on, despite all his specialty, he never got a job anywhere, even as a part-time consultant. He was ruined.
Like this, I've known of quite a few cases both in West Bengal and Kerala, which were notorious for union activities.
I too have worked in a manufacturing company for more than a decade, and I know what stuff the people who run unions are made of, so please do not take any chances whatsoever. Be absolutely careful; your job may be on the line just because you are in HR and you are supposed to carry out this dirty task.
It might seem "cowardice," but I believe the case isn't as simple; it's the other gender you've got to deal with, so be absolutely careful. It's too trivial a matter to put your career at stake.
Regards
From India, Hyderabad
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I'm pleased to see the contributions of both loginmiraclelogistics and Navneet Kumar Sarin. However, I've got to tell you about one case in particular that happened in ACC, Ltd., Mumbai in 1994.
It involved a very senior Project Officer, a South Indian, who was second in the hierarchy and on whom at least Rs. 3500 crores were riding, with a string of cement plants being put up in A.P. and Karnataka.
He gained a lot of experience having worked in the factories on all aspects from quarry to finished product, plus maintaining the production levels to an all-time high with efficient maintenance schedules. He was a very sought-after man and in recognition, ACC moved him to the project office where they were handling turnkey projects and had got into the business of putting up several mini cement plants all over the country. He worked very sincerely and put a lot of effort to attain the position he held. His ruthlessness for efficiency and commitment to delivery made him a hard taskmaster. He used to expect the same from his staff too to meet his deadlines, so he was popular with some and wasn't with most young people who would generally take frequent time off during a day apart from the regular lunch and break periods.
One among them was particularly unhappy with this gentleman and would frequently end up in an argument, generally resorting to speaking in Marathi to express his dissatisfaction and let it be known to everyone else. He began slandering this gentleman and also started giving it a color that this gentleman has a hate for Marathi Manoos and that he is being targeted.
One morning while taking the lift to the workplace, both of them were on the same lift, and the young man deliberately elbowed the senior in his ribs. Writhing in pain, he shouted at him and as soon as he came into the office, called his secretary and slammed a notice of attack. When the memo was issued to him, he took it, tore his shirt, and walked out of the Project Manager's office yelling in a manner that he was attacked by the boss and was shoved out tearing his shirt.
He quickly rounded off the people who were with him on the lift that morning and produced witnesses to testify that the young man was yelled at in the lift for no fault of his. The matter was reported to the union who immediately reached the office and demanded that the Project Manager better apologize to the young man in front of everyone in the office and also take back the memo. This was not going to happen, so they shouted and yelled for a while and demanded that an inquiry be conducted and punishment given for harassing the young man for a number of months now. They also brought the findings of this young man's last appraisal and used that too as a tool to slap all the charges against this Project Officer. The union had the backing of the Shiv Sena. Things went out of hand and out of control. The inquiry went on for a long time, and this gentleman was on a suspension. After several months, they were forced to dismiss him. He went to court, but all evidence was against him, and so finally, this man lost everything, including his gratuity. He could scrounge home with his PF, and later on, despite all his specialty, he never got a job anywhere, even as a part-time consultant. He was ruined.
Like this, I've known of quite a few cases both in West Bengal and Kerala, which were notorious for union activities.
I too have worked in a manufacturing company for more than a decade, and I know what stuff the people who run unions are made of, so please do not take any chances whatsoever. Be absolutely careful; your job may be on the line just because you are in HR and you are supposed to carry out this dirty task.
It might seem "cowardice," but I believe the case isn't as simple; it's the other gender you've got to deal with, so be absolutely careful. It's too trivial a matter to put your career at stake.
Regards
From India, Hyderabad
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Your posting and mine crossed each other. It's quite clear your 'boss' wants to be the good boy and doesn't want to bite the bullet. He wants to protect his gratuity and pension probably and wants to make you the scapegoat. Do not fall into this trap. Think a little more, and you'll find a solution for only you know exactly what you are facing. We are only advising you from the outside; we really do not know your environment, its culture, or its politics.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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As an HR Manager, you are in regular touch with the Union Team. Firstly, win their confidence by extending polite and good gestures to them to get them on your side. This is the first step you must take without any choice. Do you have a written or online access control system? Utilize it effectively to your benefit and ensure that all employees report for work on time. Otherwise, institute penal deductions with approval from your company management. By performing this task, your time office should be able to record their attendance daily. At the end of each week, provide a written notice to remind them to attend work on time. If they start reporting on time, you will have gained an advantage.
Avoid calling them to your office alone or entertaining them alone in your cabin. The latest law against harassment of female employees is very effective. Any counseling should be conveyed in public, very politely and courteously, but effectively.
Clearly outline the charter of duties not only to the individual but to all staff under your supervision to avoid singling anyone out. Even if they approach the Union representatives, ensure you have your explanation prepared. Establish a liaison with local civil and police authorities as it is a mandatory requirement of your job. This aspect must be demonstrated to your management and the trade union body. Subsequently, you can take disciplinary action such as suspension, dismissal, or transferring them to another department, etc.
As an HR Manager, you must cultivate good qualities like patience, attentiveness to gossip, taking timely actions to address it, being diligent in your work, and establishing yourself as a competent and effective HR Manager. Keep a small hand towel to clean your table yourself. It should aid in self-discipline.
From India, Pune
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Avoid calling them to your office alone or entertaining them alone in your cabin. The latest law against harassment of female employees is very effective. Any counseling should be conveyed in public, very politely and courteously, but effectively.
Clearly outline the charter of duties not only to the individual but to all staff under your supervision to avoid singling anyone out. Even if they approach the Union representatives, ensure you have your explanation prepared. Establish a liaison with local civil and police authorities as it is a mandatory requirement of your job. This aspect must be demonstrated to your management and the trade union body. Subsequently, you can take disciplinary action such as suspension, dismissal, or transferring them to another department, etc.
As an HR Manager, you must cultivate good qualities like patience, attentiveness to gossip, taking timely actions to address it, being diligent in your work, and establishing yourself as a competent and effective HR Manager. Keep a small hand towel to clean your table yourself. It should aid in self-discipline.
From India, Pune
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I feel the best solution for this problem is to involve union members and show them the evidence. Ask them to monitor the work she does and rate it in a book (every day with timings). Ask other employees to post comments on the untidiness in her work. Once you have this type of evidence, you can proceed with the next course of action.
With warm regards,
Kesav Koundinya
From India, Hyderabad
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With warm regards,
Kesav Koundinya
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Mr.Dash, Develop documents of warning letters against her, according to the company bye-laws.Then present to the senior admin board.The action has to come from them. Thanks, Lef
From Oman, Muscat
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From Oman, Muscat
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Union Affiliation and Its Impact on Case Handling
Are you from the unionized cadre, or do you belong to another union in your organization? The question arises because organizations have the Workers' Union, also known as the Mazdoor Union, and the Officers' Association (which, though not called a union, addresses issues with the management similar to what unions do). If yes, then the dimensions of this case change accordingly.
From India, Hyderabad
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Are you from the unionized cadre, or do you belong to another union in your organization? The question arises because organizations have the Workers' Union, also known as the Mazdoor Union, and the Officers' Association (which, though not called a union, addresses issues with the management similar to what unions do). If yes, then the dimensions of this case change accordingly.
From India, Hyderabad
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I have tried to combine your two posts into one to save people from commenting without grasping the whole situation.
"Sir,
I am faced with the following problem; I would be much obliged if someone could please suggest how to solve it.
We have a sweeper (female) working in our company. She is the widow of an employee who expired on duty, and the management has given her permanent employment (necessary orders issued). She cannot be sacked. The duties assigned to her are from 9 AM to 11:30 AM. She is supposed to come, clean the premises, including sweeping and dusting of tables, etc.
She often comes late, sometimes even after executives arrive. As a result, either the cleaning work is not done or is done partially, though she is paid a full salary every month. She has 100% support from the workers' union (I have heard that she may be related to the Workers' Union Secretary). Now she has started misbehaving with other staff when she is asked to do the work for which she is employed. We cannot terminate her service, as she is a permanent staff member on our payroll. As she is illiterate, it is very difficult to handle (give written warnings, etc.)
As the vacancy is occupied by her, we cannot employ anybody else. Sometimes we have to hire a casual worker to clean the premises, and I conceal the wages paid as some office expenses. But this cannot continue for long. We have tried to transfer her to our other office, but the union strongly opposes it and threatens us.
I have discussed the issue with my boss in detail; he remains quiet in the union meeting regarding the issue. He says, "You are the HR Manager (male)" and wants me to come up with a practical solution."
attribution https://www.citehr.com/private.php?d...#ixzz2XxWwj1d9
From United Kingdom
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"Sir,
I am faced with the following problem; I would be much obliged if someone could please suggest how to solve it.
We have a sweeper (female) working in our company. She is the widow of an employee who expired on duty, and the management has given her permanent employment (necessary orders issued). She cannot be sacked. The duties assigned to her are from 9 AM to 11:30 AM. She is supposed to come, clean the premises, including sweeping and dusting of tables, etc.
She often comes late, sometimes even after executives arrive. As a result, either the cleaning work is not done or is done partially, though she is paid a full salary every month. She has 100% support from the workers' union (I have heard that she may be related to the Workers' Union Secretary). Now she has started misbehaving with other staff when she is asked to do the work for which she is employed. We cannot terminate her service, as she is a permanent staff member on our payroll. As she is illiterate, it is very difficult to handle (give written warnings, etc.)
As the vacancy is occupied by her, we cannot employ anybody else. Sometimes we have to hire a casual worker to clean the premises, and I conceal the wages paid as some office expenses. But this cannot continue for long. We have tried to transfer her to our other office, but the union strongly opposes it and threatens us.
I have discussed the issue with my boss in detail; he remains quiet in the union meeting regarding the issue. He says, "You are the HR Manager (male)" and wants me to come up with a practical solution."
attribution https://www.citehr.com/private.php?d...#ixzz2XxWwj1d9
From United Kingdom
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Could you please confirm whether the sweeper is being paid for 2.5 hours per day or for 8 hours per day, considering they work only 2.5 hours? Additionally, could you kindly provide information on the size and location of your organization? The more details you provide initially, the more accurate and helpful responses from bloggers will be, and it will also prevent people from making assumptions.
Thank you.
Regards
From United Kingdom
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Thank you.
Regards
From United Kingdom
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Handling Employee Misconduct and Late Coming
Build all related records and evidence for her late coming along with her other misconduct so that you can prove it in the future. At the last stage, give her a final notice due to her negligence. The company is forced to spend money and deploy a hiring agency to do those jobs. Take final action by conducting the domestic inquiry, try to prove her guilty in the inquiry, and take final action.
Regards,
Sitansu Sekhar Rath
OPGC Ltd, Bhubaneswar. [Phone Number Removed For Privacy Reasons]
From India, Delhi
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Build all related records and evidence for her late coming along with her other misconduct so that you can prove it in the future. At the last stage, give her a final notice due to her negligence. The company is forced to spend money and deploy a hiring agency to do those jobs. Take final action by conducting the domestic inquiry, try to prove her guilty in the inquiry, and take final action.
Regards,
Sitansu Sekhar Rath
OPGC Ltd, Bhubaneswar. [Phone Number Removed For Privacy Reasons]
From India, Delhi
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I am not from a union-based company; hence, I may not be able to guide you properly, but I would like to know a few things from you:
1. Is the sweeper a part-time employee, as you mentioned the timing is 3 hours?
2. Can you eliminate the position and outsource the cleaning to a contractor or housekeeping services?
3. Can you change the timing from morning to evening when the staff moves out of the office, i.e., from 1900 hrs to 2100 hrs?
From India, Ahmadabad
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1. Is the sweeper a part-time employee, as you mentioned the timing is 3 hours?
2. Can you eliminate the position and outsource the cleaning to a contractor or housekeeping services?
3. Can you change the timing from morning to evening when the staff moves out of the office, i.e., from 1900 hrs to 2100 hrs?
From India, Ahmadabad
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Friends,
Almost everything is clear—what exactly the problem is, what is possible, and what is not possible. My friend has a boss who lacks the courage to raise this issue at a meeting with the union and asks our friend to "bell the cat," braving the consequences. Now it is left to Mr. Dash to decide what to do and how to do it. A tricky situation indeed. A clever Dash should do whatever is possible in the name of his boss and ensure that whatever comes in the process involves the boss as well. This way, any approval or disapproval for any action or inaction will have the blessings of the boss.
Some have suggested taking the union representatives into confidence. However, it is always challenging to trust a union member for any action against another employee who is also a union member. Therefore, unless Mr. Dash is prepared for the worst-case scenario, it will not be easy to tackle this case. It becomes even more challenging to take sterner action as the person in question is illiterate and has the union's support. The decision lies with you, Mr. Dash.
From India, Bangalore
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Almost everything is clear—what exactly the problem is, what is possible, and what is not possible. My friend has a boss who lacks the courage to raise this issue at a meeting with the union and asks our friend to "bell the cat," braving the consequences. Now it is left to Mr. Dash to decide what to do and how to do it. A tricky situation indeed. A clever Dash should do whatever is possible in the name of his boss and ensure that whatever comes in the process involves the boss as well. This way, any approval or disapproval for any action or inaction will have the blessings of the boss.
Some have suggested taking the union representatives into confidence. However, it is always challenging to trust a union member for any action against another employee who is also a union member. Therefore, unless Mr. Dash is prepared for the worst-case scenario, it will not be easy to tackle this case. It becomes even more challenging to take sterner action as the person in question is illiterate and has the union's support. The decision lies with you, Mr. Dash.
From India, Bangalore
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Firstly, you should convey to the sweeper that she has to come on time and be punctual. If she continues to arrive late, you should approach the union leader and address the matter politely. Explain to the union leader that the mistake lies with the sweeper, not the management, as she is not arriving on time. It is acceptable for management not to transfer her to another office as long as she arrives punctually.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Sorry all, While summarizing the case in my above post, I forgot to include the following statement from Mr. Das. "I have counselled her with others without any success."
From United Kingdom
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From United Kingdom
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When you can't sack her due to the circumstances in which she was employed and the backing she has from the union, any investigation and issuing warning letters is a non-starter (this is my view as a layperson). You will be wasting time and money. You know all the facts and are in a better position than all the other contributors to this thread, as you have not answered some of the questions raised. We all can only assume (ASS U ME) things. My tutor, when I took a management skills course, had told us that "When you ASSUME, and the assumption is wrong, you make an ASS out of U and ME." That's why I try to desist from giving advice based on limited information.
I hope you will kindly tell us all, when you solve the case, how you solved it.
From United Kingdom
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I hope you will kindly tell us all, when you solve the case, how you solved it.
From United Kingdom
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The views expressed by Shri TSK Raman are perfectly correct based on his in-depth knowledge of the legal provisions and rich experience in the industry. Sir, please go ahead with your valuable guidance, ignoring silly comments.
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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Some of our friends didn't understand what you said about her:
1. She is a widow of a deceased ex-employee appointed on compassionate grounds.
2. She holds a permanent post.
3. She is illiterate.
4. Backed by the union.
5. She is not performing to your expectations.
Suggested Approach
If you have more than one union, perhaps you may find a solution to this problem. This is an old British method - divide and rule. Issue a show cause notice, translate it into the vernacular/mother tongue of that employee. Post one copy on the notice board and provide another copy to all the unions. Follow up with reminders, and send copies to all relevant parties including the ALC. Then, wait for a reply. If no reply is received, appoint an Inquiry Committee and let them handle the matter. Act based on the outcome. I believe this approach could be effective.
From India, Bangalore
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1. She is a widow of a deceased ex-employee appointed on compassionate grounds.
2. She holds a permanent post.
3. She is illiterate.
4. Backed by the union.
5. She is not performing to your expectations.
Suggested Approach
If you have more than one union, perhaps you may find a solution to this problem. This is an old British method - divide and rule. Issue a show cause notice, translate it into the vernacular/mother tongue of that employee. Post one copy on the notice board and provide another copy to all the unions. Follow up with reminders, and send copies to all relevant parties including the ALC. Then, wait for a reply. If no reply is received, appoint an Inquiry Committee and let them handle the matter. Act based on the outcome. I believe this approach could be effective.
From India, Bangalore
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From the time this query was raised, it has drawn nearly 37 responses, all based on assumptions, including the last one. We started off with not much data; however, it was good enough to put on our "thinking caps," which can make even the author of Lateral Thinking - "Edward de Bono," proud.
Sincere and humble thanks to all those members of this community for expressing their thoughts and offering advice/suggestions. The lateral thoughts flowing on this issue have been valuable. We have generated enough content, sufficient to publish a book. However, what's really baffling me is Dash's silence. Anyway, if it helps him to develop an action plan to address the problem and act on it, or else be bailed out, will be our prayer. I guess Dash owes us feedback for the sake of our knowledge and experience, whenever it is due. Though the issue might seem small to some, it has been absorbing indeed.
From India, Hyderabad
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Sincere and humble thanks to all those members of this community for expressing their thoughts and offering advice/suggestions. The lateral thoughts flowing on this issue have been valuable. We have generated enough content, sufficient to publish a book. However, what's really baffling me is Dash's silence. Anyway, if it helps him to develop an action plan to address the problem and act on it, or else be bailed out, will be our prayer. I guess Dash owes us feedback for the sake of our knowledge and experience, whenever it is due. Though the issue might seem small to some, it has been absorbing indeed.
From India, Hyderabad
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You may maintain a record/log book of her daily jobs assigned and performed. You may appraise the Union and take appropriate disciplinary action in stages, i.e., first stage warning; second stage censure; third stage reduction in basic pay by stoppage of increment, etc. Lastly, if there is no improvement, go for dismissal.
From India, Bokaro
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From India, Bokaro
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Handling Employee Misconduct and Tardiness
Record the instances of tardiness, misconduct, and counseling sessions in the company's records while maintaining strict confidentiality. When the appropriate time comes, issue a formal written warning for tardiness. If the individual refuses to acknowledge the violation, send a registered letter requesting a response within 48 hours.
From India, Coimbatore
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Record the instances of tardiness, misconduct, and counseling sessions in the company's records while maintaining strict confidentiality. When the appropriate time comes, issue a formal written warning for tardiness. If the individual refuses to acknowledge the violation, send a registered letter requesting a response within 48 hours.
From India, Coimbatore
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You can give her First Notice ,Second notice & third notice .after that she doesn’t understand ,you can terminate or suspend no issue .
From India, Bhopal
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From India, Bhopal
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It is really a very good discussion, more or less like a brainstorming session. I think Ford Jr. would not have racked his brain to such an extent before sacking Lee Iacocca. But as Mr. T.S.K. Raman has rightly said, it is very difficult to handle a disciplinary issue like the present one when the trade union is highly militant and the management is very hesitant. It is just like a tiny ant getting deep into the ear-hole of a giant elephant. So, given the odds so unfavorable, it is for Mr. Dash to decide whether the extreme action of termination of employment of the lady is warranted so quickly.
On the contrary, as some members suggested, he can let the noose loose for some more time by awarding her gradual punishments like warning, proportionate wage-cut, punitive suspension, etc., in the ascending order with the written approval of his oscillating boss while mustering the open support of other members of staff of the office for the correction course. In the meanwhile, he, along with his boss, should bring it to the notice of the CEO to facilitate a dialogue between the top union leader and the top management for a peaceful solution like voluntary separation paving the way for outsourcing of the job. Any other hasty action by himself triggered by an ego trip would end up like the hunter being hunted.
Regards
From India, Salem
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On the contrary, as some members suggested, he can let the noose loose for some more time by awarding her gradual punishments like warning, proportionate wage-cut, punitive suspension, etc., in the ascending order with the written approval of his oscillating boss while mustering the open support of other members of staff of the office for the correction course. In the meanwhile, he, along with his boss, should bring it to the notice of the CEO to facilitate a dialogue between the top union leader and the top management for a peaceful solution like voluntary separation paving the way for outsourcing of the job. Any other hasty action by himself triggered by an ego trip would end up like the hunter being hunted.
Regards
From India, Salem
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As mentioned by another member, the best action is to collect evidence over a period of time, issue a show cause notice/warnings in writing, hold a disciplinary hearing, present the evidence, and then, as per the legal rights of the employer over a "proven" irresponsible employee, terminate him/her with the notice period pay. You want to do all you can to avoid reaching this point, but if the employee is not working in the company's interest, it is best not to have such an employee on the payroll.
Regards,
BIC
From India, Ahmedabad
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Regards,
BIC
From India, Ahmedabad
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Discipline Management: A Complex HR Challenge
I had been following this thread but desisted from commenting as the responses were quite adequate, and the member who initiated it had not participated again with more inputs. However, I am putting in my views as requested by one of our member friends.
Discipline management is one of the toughest and most challenging tasks for an HR manager, as it is vital for the organization. Additionally, all the occupational hazards of HR are found in this one category of assignment. Apart from the loss of job and reputation, as pointed out by Mr. TSK Raman with a true case, there have also been many instances of HR professionals losing their life and limbs on account of it.
Although it is advisable to act according to Douglas McGregor's "Hot Stove Rule," matters that are delayed or those dealing with only performance issues should be dealt with patience and a clear mind.
Clarifying the Issue: Performance or Disciplinary?
The point at issue has to be made clear: whether it is a "performance issue" or a "disciplinary issue"? It has been made out to be the latter, either because Mr. Dash's boss wants him to "fix" the person, he has lost patience, or it is just the punitive HR instinct of being "trigger-happy."
In my humble opinion, it should be seen as a performance issue. The following questions need to be responded to by the concerned member Mr. Dash:
- It's given that she has been appointed on compassionate grounds. It's a well-known fact that people who are employed under such exigencies are actually not 'employable' as they have never considered taking up employment. However, they are forced to take up employment due to the tragedy. They have to be made employable, and this takes some time.
What is her length of service, or when was she appointed? Since she is illiterate, it's most likely that she may be from a rural area where people are not exposed to the requirements of regular employment.
Was she given any training (informal) for her job? By way of even instructions or demonstration? Has she been made aware of her role in keeping the office clean and tidy? How is she being dealt with by others?
What is her age and physical health? What was the designation of her late husband? Does she resent the job of a sweeper? Are there any other members in her family who could have been provided with a suitable job?
As an HR, did you try sincerely to understand her problem or what prevents her from doing her job in the best possible manner?
Seeking Solutions and Communication
Finally, your boss advised you:
"I. My boss is telling me, you are the HR, use your brain and sort out the whole thing. But certainly, he also fears the consequences if we sack the employee."
Considering the first part of his instructions, did you brainstorm on it and come up with any creative solution?
One of the members had given a very imaginative and apt suggestion:
Did you try to communicate with her in the most humane manner? I can understand the language barrier, and this is the reason why good management insists that the front-line HR must be conversant with the local language.
I think your answers will guide you in the proper direction. This is not a disciplinary issue, as no indiscipline has been committed to call for a charge-sheet or termination of service.
Please look at this from a purely performance issue and act accordingly without any prejudice, and try to provide some respect for a crucial and essential, albeit lowly job of cleaning and keeping the place neat and hygienic.
You can provide some elements of job enlargement and job enrichment by allowing her to decide the cleaning schedules, cleaning materials, and cleaning equipment, etc.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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I had been following this thread but desisted from commenting as the responses were quite adequate, and the member who initiated it had not participated again with more inputs. However, I am putting in my views as requested by one of our member friends.
Discipline management is one of the toughest and most challenging tasks for an HR manager, as it is vital for the organization. Additionally, all the occupational hazards of HR are found in this one category of assignment. Apart from the loss of job and reputation, as pointed out by Mr. TSK Raman with a true case, there have also been many instances of HR professionals losing their life and limbs on account of it.
Although it is advisable to act according to Douglas McGregor's "Hot Stove Rule," matters that are delayed or those dealing with only performance issues should be dealt with patience and a clear mind.
Clarifying the Issue: Performance or Disciplinary?
The point at issue has to be made clear: whether it is a "performance issue" or a "disciplinary issue"? It has been made out to be the latter, either because Mr. Dash's boss wants him to "fix" the person, he has lost patience, or it is just the punitive HR instinct of being "trigger-happy."
In my humble opinion, it should be seen as a performance issue. The following questions need to be responded to by the concerned member Mr. Dash:
- It's given that she has been appointed on compassionate grounds. It's a well-known fact that people who are employed under such exigencies are actually not 'employable' as they have never considered taking up employment. However, they are forced to take up employment due to the tragedy. They have to be made employable, and this takes some time.
What is her length of service, or when was she appointed? Since she is illiterate, it's most likely that she may be from a rural area where people are not exposed to the requirements of regular employment.
Was she given any training (informal) for her job? By way of even instructions or demonstration? Has she been made aware of her role in keeping the office clean and tidy? How is she being dealt with by others?
What is her age and physical health? What was the designation of her late husband? Does she resent the job of a sweeper? Are there any other members in her family who could have been provided with a suitable job?
As an HR, did you try sincerely to understand her problem or what prevents her from doing her job in the best possible manner?
Seeking Solutions and Communication
Finally, your boss advised you:
"I. My boss is telling me, you are the HR, use your brain and sort out the whole thing. But certainly, he also fears the consequences if we sack the employee."
Considering the first part of his instructions, did you brainstorm on it and come up with any creative solution?
One of the members had given a very imaginative and apt suggestion:
Did you try to communicate with her in the most humane manner? I can understand the language barrier, and this is the reason why good management insists that the front-line HR must be conversant with the local language.
I think your answers will guide you in the proper direction. This is not a disciplinary issue, as no indiscipline has been committed to call for a charge-sheet or termination of service.
Please look at this from a purely performance issue and act accordingly without any prejudice, and try to provide some respect for a crucial and essential, albeit lowly job of cleaning and keeping the place neat and hygienic.
You can provide some elements of job enlargement and job enrichment by allowing her to decide the cleaning schedules, cleaning materials, and cleaning equipment, etc.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Please review the terms of the appointment letter and the conditions mentioned therein. Additionally, ensure compliance with the Standing Order-Rule.
If there are stipulations related to reassignment or transfer to another department, please proceed accordingly. Furthermore, gather evidence, as previously discussed, regarding instances of tardiness, non-performance of duties, and insubordination. Subsequently, engage with the worker's committee to address and resolve these issues.
Regards,
Jitendra Parmar
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If there are stipulations related to reassignment or transfer to another department, please proceed accordingly. Furthermore, gather evidence, as previously discussed, regarding instances of tardiness, non-performance of duties, and insubordination. Subsequently, engage with the worker's committee to address and resolve these issues.
Regards,
Jitendra Parmar
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As pointed out, keep collecting evidence. Keep telling your boss how sensitive this matter is and what could be the implications of a hurried action. Procrastinate, but keep collecting. Raise the matter casually (off the record) to union guys who may be in your favor. If possible, you may try a different approach. Don't take any action. Don't give her any work. Get work done by another person (get approval for a new hire). Just make her sit out her time and take salary for free (after all, that is what she is doing). Maybe this Gandhigiri will work.
Regards,
Pavan
From India, Mumbai
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Regards,
Pavan
From India, Mumbai
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I sincerely thank you for all your support and suggestions. Before three days, we had a small tea party at our office on the occasion of bidding farewell to a senior staff member who was transferred. In the party, my director, executives, union members, and almost all staff were present. During the party, I started a friendly conversation with the Union leader who was surrounded by his supporters. During the conversation, I lightly raised the issue. Some other colleagues like our System Analyst, Security Manager, etc., supported me as they are also fed up with the situation.
My intention was to convince the union that what was happening was wrong. I did not bring up suspension, memo, dismissal, or any specific actions. As it was a large gathering, others also joined us, and the Union Secretary agreed that the actions taken so far were wrong and assured us of improvement.
Following this, I have noticed some positive results. The individual in question is now punctual. Although I cannot yet comment on the quality of the work as excellent, it has improved compared to before. I hope this trend continues smoothly until August (Union elections are scheduled).
I look forward to the guidance of my respected seniors on this matter and welcome any comments.
Regards,
A Dash
From India, Hyderabad
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My intention was to convince the union that what was happening was wrong. I did not bring up suspension, memo, dismissal, or any specific actions. As it was a large gathering, others also joined us, and the Union Secretary agreed that the actions taken so far were wrong and assured us of improvement.
Following this, I have noticed some positive results. The individual in question is now punctual. Although I cannot yet comment on the quality of the work as excellent, it has improved compared to before. I hope this trend continues smoothly until August (Union elections are scheduled).
I look forward to the guidance of my respected seniors on this matter and welcome any comments.
Regards,
A Dash
From India, Hyderabad
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It is good to find that our problem is getting solved. Praise her for the improvement in work. It will create the "Hawthorne Effect" once she finds that her work is getting noticed. Recognition is a great motivator.
Play down the union involvement, and do not make it seem as if the improvement is due to fear or pressure from the union. Everyone has their own self-respect, and one would rather be appreciated for their own effort rather than it being due to the pressure of someone else.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Play down the union involvement, and do not make it seem as if the improvement is due to fear or pressure from the union. Everyone has their own self-respect, and one would rather be appreciated for their own effort rather than it being due to the pressure of someone else.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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It's better to address her misbehavior towards other staff. Utilize the attendance sheet as evidence and present the proof to management as well as the union. Incorporate technology. Avoid manually cleaning the floor; use a vacuum cleaner instead.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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As this is quite a common problem with these kinds of employees, it doesn't mean that you should be arrogant towards her. Just make her realize if she is truly earning the salary she is receiving, or you could hire another temporary employee to ensure the smooth flow of work and see if she changes her attitude towards work.
Thanks
From India
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Thanks
From India
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As an HR Manager, if possible, I can bring in a new employee who is capable of handling this situation. I will assign her to work alongside this problematic employee with the same responsibilities. This approach may encourage the problematic person to take ownership of her job, leading her to come in early and complete tasks before the new person begins working. If not, we can try to acknowledge the problematic employee's work in front of others as the best worker.
I believe that speaking with the union representative may not resolve the problem in these situations. We should attempt to address the issue psychologically.
Regards,
Sekar Krishnamoorthy
From India, Madras
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I believe that speaking with the union representative may not resolve the problem in these situations. We should attempt to address the issue psychologically.
Regards,
Sekar Krishnamoorthy
From India, Madras
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It is good to be warm with the union leader and familiarize yourself with them to some extent. Then, start talking to them about what's the matter to protect their interests. Explain the rules and regulations regarding the company policy and provide all the necessary evidence to support your points.
Thank you.
From India, Mumbai
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Thank you.
From India, Mumbai
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As you mentioned, the lady has support from the union, but it does not mean that you cannot take action. Just make sure that she signs some register for her attendance. After a few days, contact a union representative and explain the situation. Ask the union representative to help the lady understand the importance of punctuality. It might be better for the issue to be addressed through someone else rather than directly involving yourself.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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Such situations are really critical. I think third-party intervention can be sought, and based on the discussion, a few documentation pieces are required. She needs to issue some warning letters with cc to the union office. However, don't forget to engage the Union representatives while getting into a discussion with her. You may also seek to change her duty timings slightly earlier. The consequence of coming late is always present in all establishments, whether with or without a union.
Based on the warning letters, at least three, you may take further actions. It may not lead to termination but definitely some alternative actions.
From India, Mumbai
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Based on the warning letters, at least three, you may take further actions. It may not lead to termination but definitely some alternative actions.
From India, Mumbai
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In this case, you can implement a late-coming policy in the organization. Start deducting half a day's salary after three instances of late coming. If the employee arrives on time and is present for the whole month, the company can give a full attendance bonus of Rs. 200 to Rs. 300 (as decided by the organization). I hope this helps you. I have tried this in our organization and have received a positive outcome in the admin and production departments.
Thanks & Regards,
Harsha
From India, Vadodara
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Thanks & Regards,
Harsha
From India, Vadodara
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(Fact Checked)-The user mentioned counseling the employee but didn't specify the type of counseling or its effectiveness. It's crucial to document counseling sessions, provide clear expectations, and track improvements. Consider formal disciplinary action if counseling doesn't yield results. (1 Acknowledge point)