Skhadir
Strategic Business Management Includes Revenue
Bodhisutra
Manager, Operations
NavneetSarin
Tax & Labor Law Advocate
Naziyasm@gmail.com
Hr & Compliance Incharge
AxitaMehta
Sr.hr Executive
Sajidmamba
Hr Executive
Nashbramhall
Learning & Teaching Fellow (retired)
Samvedan
Consultancy_hr & Ir
Leolingham2000
Management Consultant
Neel.chowbal
Computer Administrator
+5 Others

Thread Started by #PeacePromoter

Peace and Greetings to everyone,

I request maximum response to my queries as it would directly influence my career choice.

To begin with for those who aren't aware of (both Muslims and non-muslims), there's a different between a muslim by name and a muslim by faith. if not at all, but most of the muslims today are only muslims because their fathers (parents) were muslims and its only a matter of racial creed, than to have faith in the religion of Islam. Hence, most of the Muslims you see around in corporations are only people of different 'cultural' upbringing, rather than people of different faith and ideologies. In Arabic lexicon, Muslim can only be a person who practices Islam. It is formulated by the Arabic Prefix 'Mu' with Islam = Muslim. Same as Mu + Safar = Musafir (Traveler). Once who is a resident, can't be called a traveler and technically, once who is not practicing Islam, can't be called a Muslim. Anyway, this was a very very brief introduction of the things i am going to write now. It was a necessary to give a small background so that people could understand the context. Now, I am mentioning the actual requirements for a practicing Muslim man (which are defined by Quran and the authentic statements of Prophet Mohammad) which might conflict with the corporate culture.

(Not in any chronological order)

1. Offering Namaz (Prayers) - it requires a clean place and at least 15 mins, twice/thrice during office hours. (depending on the time one stays in the office. if he stays late till 6 or 7, it would be thrice a day). A practicing Muslim can't leave a single time Namaz even he's in a very important meeting with the CEO of the company

2. Going for prayers to a mosque on friday (if the mosque is in close vicinity of the office) - it would require not less than 45 mins to 1 hours and time would be friday afternoon. Again, a practicing Muslim can't leave Friday namaz even he's in a very important meeting with the CEO of the company

3. Fasting for 30 days in the month of Ramadan - Here the Muslim can't even drink a drop of water, not fruits, not potato, not even a morsel of any food from dawn to dusk.

4. Not shaking hands with females - how much strange or rude it may read, but a practicing Muslim is prohibited to shake hands with unrelated females.

5. A Muslim can never lie or cheat with anyone (i.e., A Muslim can't lie or cheat with other employees on the behalf of his boss.)

6. A Muslim can't forge HR annual statements or do any manipulation in HR audit - on behalf of his boss

7. A Muslim can't do any favoritism or nepotism on behalf of his boss

8. A Muslim must ensure equity and justice at all times and with all people

9. A Muslim can't pay or accept bribes

10. A Muslim can't be a part of any party involving alcohol, drugs, music and mixed dancing. A Muslim can't even arrange such parties

11. A Muslim can't attend/ be a part of following parties/celebrations - Birthdays, New Year, Religious Festivals, etc. A Muslim can't even arrange such parties.

12. A Muslim must get day off on two Eids, Eid-ul-Fitra and Eid-ul-Adha.

I only want to ask that what would be the tolerance level for such an employee as mentioned above.
21st January 2012 From India, Mumbai
I will try to answer your query taking the easier points first.

Point 12 is catered for as two Eids are public holidays in India (pl see Public holidays in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Following points 10 and 11 should not be a problem, as people will understand the view point. Point 3 should be easy to follow as companies do not insist that people eat during the day. Point 4 should also be not a problem as people will understand, as shaking hands with a woman is not not normal Indian practice. One can do Namasthe (that does not mean bowing the head), It is just a way of greeting in India.

Points or requirements 5,6,7,8, and 9 should be the norm in ETHICAL companies.

As India is a Secular country, the organisations just cannot cater to the needs of anyone religious community's requirement. Hence, you will find that certain of the above 12 needs may need to be compromised. For example, getting away from meetings to offer prayers in Points 1 and 2. Companies cannot afford o give extra time for prayers and the concerned staff member would be required to work extra time to compensate for the time taken for the prayer. If I am right, Mr. S A Khadir has said the same in the past at https://www.citehr.com/341125-shall-...e-hours-6.html.

Regarding Point 2, I wonder what the Quran says about goind to a mosque if it is not in the close vicinity!!

I hope I am not hurting anyone's feelings. If I have please accept my apologies.

Have a nice day.
21st January 2012 From United Kingdom
Hello,

There is little to add to what Mr. Simhan has said precisely.

My take on this subject may appear to be simplistic.

The organizations are secular and do NOT make concessions beyond a point to anyone.

Every organization has its own religion, culture, norms, ethics and discipline which everyone has to be subservient!

Being a country of vast diversity in terms of religion, languages, beliefs etc. if concessions are made to one sect, then others cannot be denied and if granted to others also there will be chaos that will destroy the very sustainability of the organization.

No, on grounds of the "religion" of the organizations, if such concessions are denied, they cannot be faulted.

The organization may lose the good qualities the candidate may bring in but its a cost that must be paid by the organization.

Homogeniety of work culture is vital. It must be preserved and sanctified.

This is a perspective that cuts across the good and the bad and what a religion or a sect may bring to the organization, WITHOUT finding faults with anyone of these. If life we have to make compromises and even pay costs if want to realise our wishes, dreams and even ambitions

Let us respect this culture!

Regards

samvedan

January 21, 2012
-------------------
21st January 2012 From India, Pune
I'm only asking for my own understanding as i dont know the ground realities abroad.
I would really like to know whether a Hindu working in Dubai or other Middle East countries and also other foreign countries (where Christianity is the main religion) gets an official holiday on festivals like Holi, Diwali, Ganesh Chaturthi, Pongal, Ugadi, Gudi Padwa, Onam, Gujrati New Year, and many other important days for Hindus which includes Mahashivratri and Guru Pornima.
Also i'm sure in other countries an Indian (irrespective of religion) will definitely not have an off on the most important days for an Indian - Independence Day and Republic Day!!!
Regards,
Neel.
21st January 2012 From India, Bangalore
dear,
i,m practising all of the above while i am working as HR.
be free to ur suprevisor and discuss, sure u will get ur problem solved... befor that u must be loyal to the company and be a true believer.. we got a specific place to offer namaz.. got extra time on friday for Juma,a... got it after discussing with boss while we have to do some adjustment...
in my experience, i believe that everyone will love a true believer.... a true believer will be loyal and he wont cheat.. every company want such type of personality in present era.. so practising simple religius practises like namas , fasting is not difficult in todays scenario because of work....
no boss come askin that whether u want offer prayer, if u want ask it frankly conserned authority, sure they will offer some adjustment..
Regards,
Sajid Muhammed,
kannur
21st January 2012 From India, Hyderabad
Dear Brother,

Am sorry to say this is not the topic to be discussed on Citehr kindly meet your mosque priest he will guide in context to quran guidelines.

Kindly correct your thinking we dont have muslim by faith or name. Muslim is just a muslim he just needs Hidayat from Allah.

Offering Namaz for five times read farz namaz for that if your work load is heavy.

Friday namaz u can skip bayan before namaz & it will not take 1 hr right. just request ur management to change ur lunch timings on friday.

Fasting is not a problem u can fast.(kindly explain what is the problem in fasting) During fasting we cant ask for concession we have to work as normal day.

No female will ask u to shake hands. just as samb said do namaste.

Keep your records updated then the problem of cheating will not arise.

Boss is asking u to forge documents u r not insisting on forge document Allah knows what u r dont worry just pray for ur boss.

Explain your boss with valid data & problem of favouritism& inequality can be managed to an extent.

we are religious tolerance people no problem in attending or arranging parties. Kindly take help of your mosque cleric he will explain u do's & dont's.

I dont think any company management will not sanction your leave on Eid days.you have your earned leave just take your boss approval for Eid day.

I may sound rude in this. but if u need any detail clarification kindly mail me on my personal ID or message ur problem in Istakara website they will reply you.
21st January 2012 From India, Bangalore
dear Mubashira,
this is the right place 2 discuss the problem... this is not religious matter 2 ask 2 a priest.. any thing related 2 empleeyee can discuss here.. if u r nt interested, skip the matter.. but there are people who experience problm with relagious practises while on work...
sorry, this is not for paining u Mubashira, just not to discourage people who is keeping on posting..
21st January 2012 From India, Hyderabad
Dear Mr. Peace Promoter,

I appreciate your straight forward nature and you had pointed out the FACTS, which is NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH ITSELF. To start with "ISLAM" is based on "ETHICAL LIVING, CLEANLINESS/TIDINESS(ETERNAL/INTERNAL) AND LOT MORE" which doesn't ALLOW MUSLIMS to PRACTICE anything, that is said to be "HARAAM(WRONG)" by ALMIGHTY "ALLAH", hence A MUSLIM need to STRICTLY PAY ATTENTION to whatsoever is said to be HARAAM(NOT PERMITTED) & HALAAL(PERMITTED).

Whatever you wrote about MUSLIMS - "A MUSLIM BY STRONG FAITH(FEAR & LOVE) IN ALLAH" and "A MUSLIM BY RACE(CULTURAL/TRADITIONAL)" is the BITTER FACT and i really felt ashamed of myself because at times, i have gone wrong in the ANGRY STATE OF MIND.

I had responded to your points in your post below marked in "PURPLE" & BOLD.

Do you have any idea what ALLAH had gifted his SLAVES(HUMANS), its the MOST POWERFUL PART OF OUR BODY, so called THE "BRAIN" and we humans can think to EXTREME LEVEL. ISLAM is the MOST FLEXIBLE RELIGION IN THE WORLD because ALLAH had given us CHOICES. Why do we have to trouble others, let it be MUSLIMS OR NON MUSLIMS. Why are we projecting ISLAM as if we are troubled by NON-MUSLIMS. Its time to SIMPLIFY OUR THOUGHT PROCESS.

Please perform your PRAYERS-IN-TIME and if you cant, due to GENUINE REASONS, you can perform after some time. ALLAH WILL FORGIVE YOU AND REMEMBER HE IS WATCHING EVERYONE.

If you have anything to get clarified, please do feel free to write to me.


21st January 2012 From India, Chennai
Dear Ms. Naziya,

Whatever the category of MUSLIMS, narrated by PEACE PROMOTER is the FACT. You can't deny it. MUSLIMS do have FAITH in ALLAH but they(those xyz) DON'T HAVE FEAR OF ALLAH, that's why they continue doing MISTAKES REPEATEDLY. Can you deny this FACT?. I hope you haven't seen the world, yet.

You haven't understood the concerns of PEACE PROMOTER, hence you failed to justify your comments while associating with your THOUGHT PROCESS, though few of your suggestions are PERFECT.

I wonder why one has to seek GUIDANCE from MOSQUE PRIEST/ULAAMA. Do you have KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ISLAAM, when you have FAITH in ALLAH?

Regarding FRIDAY PRAYERS, please update your knowledge and don't even suggest anyone to SKIP BAYAAN because you are DOING A BIG MISTAKE. "We have to ENTER MOSQUE BEFORE BAYAAN STARTS". Since your goodself being a FEMALE, you wouldn't have got a CHANCE TO PRAY @ MOSQUE. FRIDAY PRAYER is not just the NORMAL PRAYER.

Please update your knowledge and DIRECT PEOPLE IN RIGHT DIRECTION WITHOUT CONFUSING THEM.

With profound regards


21st January 2012 From India, Chennai
My Response in BLUE Colour

Peace and Greetings to everyone,

I request maximum response to my queries as it would directly influence my career choice.

To begin with for those who aren't aware of (both Muslims and non-muslims), there's a different between a muslim by name and a muslim by faith. if not at all, but most of the muslims today are only muslims because their fathers (parents) were muslims and its only a matter of racial creed, than to have faith in the religion of Islam. Hence, most of the Muslims you see around in corporations are only people of different 'cultural' upbringing, rather than people of different faith and ideologies.

Thank you for the thought, but would differ with you, as the opinion stated by you may be specific to few individuals and not all in general.

In Arabic lexicon, Muslim can only be a person who practices Islam. It is formulated by the Arabic Prefix 'Mu' with Islam = Muslim. Same as Mu + Safar = Musafir (Traveler). Once who is a resident, can't be called a traveler and technically, once who is not practicing Islam, can't be called a Muslim.

Sure thank you for the wonderful explanation.

Anyway, this was a very very brief introduction of the things i am going to write now. It was a necessary to give a small background so that people could understand the context. Now, I am mentioning the actual requirements for a practicing Muslim man (which are defined by Quran and the authentic statements of Prophet Mohammad) which might conflict with the corporate culture.

(Not in any chronological order)

1. Offering Namaz (Prayers) - it requires a clean place and at least 15 mins, twice/thrice during office hours. (depending on the time one stays in the office. if he stays late till 6 or 7, it would be thrice a day). A practicing Muslim can't leave a single time Namaz even he's in a very important meeting with the CEO of the company

Offering SALAH is the ultimate for every Muslim. When he is at office, he can very well offer Salah, as one comes during Lunch Time(ZUHUR), the next comes in the evening(ASAR). Zuhur – lunch time spare 10mins, Asar – spare your tea time. In the evening, is he needs to stay, sure he will get 10 mins for MAGRIB, as anyways the person will take a coffee break at that moment.

2. Going for prayers to a mosque on friday (if the mosque is in close vicinity of the office) - it would require not less than 45 mins to 1 hours and time would be friday afternoon. Again, a practicing Muslim can't leave Friday namaz even he's in a very important meeting with the CEO of the company

Almost 90% of the cases, people understand the importance of Prayers, that too Jummah Prayer. If we inform them, sure no one is going to stop.

3. Fasting for 30 days in the month of Ramadan - Here the Muslim can't even drink a drop of water, not fruits, not potato, not even a morsel of any food from dawn to dusk.

Please remember, nobody stops from you fasting. Every corner of the world knows the greatness of Ramadan.

4. Not shaking hands with females - how much strange or rude it may read, but a practicing Muslim is prohibited to shake hands with unrelated females.

What is the need to shake hands? Did anyone compel you to do it? It is matters of every individual right whether to shake hands or not. You don’t do it. Nobody is going to blast you if you are not going to shake hands.

5. A Muslim can never lie or cheat with anyone (i.e., A Muslim can't lie or cheat with other employees on the behalf of his boss.)

It is applicable to all.

6. A Muslim can't forge HR annual statements or do any manipulation in HR audit - on behalf of his boss

Who asked you to forge? If you are not happy with the wrong thing, put things straight. No one will compel you.

7. A Muslim can't do any favoritism or nepotism on behalf of his boss

No one is asking you to do any favouritism

8. A Muslim must ensure equity and justice at all times and with all people

Did anyone say no to the above statement

9. A Muslim can't pay or accept bribes

Why are you taking Bribe, who asked you to do so.

10. A Muslim can't be a part of any party involving alcohol, drugs, music and mixed dancing. A Muslim can't even arrange such parties

Inform your superior, no one will compel and make it mandatory. Else depute a person for the same.

11. A Muslim can't attend/ be a part of following parties/celebrations - Birthdays, New Year, Religious Festivals, etc. A Muslim can't even arrange such parties.

What you do in those parties is very much important. You make your presence available and make yourself low key profile.

12. A Muslim must get day off on two Eids, Eid-ul-Fitra and Eid-ul-Adha.

Almost 90% of the companies have public holidays for EID, if not they have restricted holiday. None will come in between religious sentiments.

I only want to ask that what would be the tolerance level for such an employee as mentioned above.

Please be informed that, the above mentioned points are not only applicable to Muslims working as HR, it is applicable to each and every Muslim.

Let us stick to the basic principles of ISLAM and saying of Prophet Mohamed (SAW).

Let us not make a hue and cry for practising ISLAM.

It all comes from within. If we are determined and focussed, we will sure practise ISLAM in much better way by not hurting others sentiments.

Alhamdulillah, I have been working for the past 11 years, all through my career, in which ever company i have worked, i have been practising Islam.

By ALLAH’s grace, i have been offering 5 times without missing a single day for the past 6 years.

PLEASE Let us not mix our religious sentiments with profession.

PLEASE Let us not make our religion, faith to take excuse for our Professional Career.
21st January 2012 From India, Coimbatore
Let me Reply to Everyone

To skhadir

In India, its very difficult to find a CLEAN place within an organisation for offering OBLIGATORY PRAYERS. Hence, you may create a SMALL PLACE and keep it CLEAN. At times, you can even PRAY ALONE if, you are not in a position to PRAY-IN-TIME. If you can pray with JAMAT, you can pray ALONE.



You got me wrong brother. Finding a clean place is a requirement for prayers, not an issue which I intended to raise. I was asking of the very permission to pray during the office hours (in office premises or elsewhere). It happened with a female classmate of mine that she was categorically denied to pray in her office on the reasoning that if they allow her to do her prayers in the office, next they have to permit Hindu employees to bring ghanti (prayer bell) in the office and do their Pooja. She was working in a big Indian IT company (99.9% of the people know that company and it is one of the highest ranking organizations in Best Employer Rankings) in Noida as a HR Executive. (I have no problem in naming that company if it’s allowed by citehr rules to do so)

Regarding the meetings, it don't think so, its happening every day between you and your CEO especially during PRAYER HOURS. If it is, you may talk to your CEO and request him to re-schedule the MEETING TIMINGS.



Again, I think I should have made my post more detailed. I wasn’t talking of an actual meeting with a CEO of the company. I was just giving an example that even such an important task of meeting with the CEO wouldn’t relax the obligation for offering prayers for a Muslim. I was implying that what would be the tolerance level of the corporation for such an employee who can avoid every single important work of the organization for his personal religious reasons.

You can avoid it and its not NECESSARY to SHAKE HANDS with FEMALES. NO ONE WILL FORCE/COMPEL YOU TO SHAKE HANDS WITH FEMALES AGAINST YOUR WILL.



I was selected as a HR intern in a very big IT company and the HR Head (Male) took me to meet my immediate supervisor (Female) and she forwarded her hand and with all respect, I declined to shake her hands and I was rejected immediately on the grounds that ‘conservative’ people like me are not accepted in his organization and I would present a very bad picture of the organization to prospective employees during interviews. (Again, I can name the HR head and the company and the company proudly present itself as ranked in Top 50 "Best Companies to Work for in India - 2011" by Great Place to Work).

You may request other MUSLIMS NOT TO DO WHICH IS AGAINST THE WILL OF ALLAH

I am not at all concerned what other Muslims might be doing in the same organization. I only want that my employer don’t isolate my actions to tell me that why I am acting ‘extremist’, ‘strange’, while other muslims (in the same organization) aren’t doing so.

if it is HELPING YOUR ORGANISATION, PLEASE DO IT

Again, I am asking this question because one of my Hindu friends has worked for around 4-5 years as a HR executive in one of the top MNC in Gurgaon and he told me that its common practice to do manipulation and forging of HR audits so that to present a ‘acceptable’ picture to seniors. Again, it might be helping the organization but if it’s a lie, it’s a lie. If it’s cheating, its cheating and there’s no compromise on it, period!

AGREE. Its your LIFE, you DECIDE in what way you want to LIVE. You may take support of ANNA HAZARE to get rid of CORRUPTION or to STOP people from PRACTICING UNETHICAL HABITS.



I am not at all asking of my personal choice to not pay bribes. I am asking what if I am asked by my seniors to do so for acquiring some benefit for the company.

AGREE. WHO ASKED YOU JOIN? IF YOU JOIN, WHO ASKED/FORCED YOU TO DRINK ALCOHOL ETC AGAINST YOUR WILL

No one can force me to join but what I asked is the acceptance level of such an employee who wants to remain totally isolated from all such social events(involving the mentioned things). Moreover, I believe a HR person may be required to arrange such parties occasionally.

Please perform your PRAYERS-IN-TIME and if you cant due to GENUINE REASONS, you can perform after some time. ALLAH WILL FORGIVE YOU AND REMEMBER HE IS WATCHING EVERYONE.



Brother, presently I am on the verge of completion of my MAHRM and I am also a student of Bachelor of Islamic Studies from an online university and also studying Islam (informally) since the last 4-5 years. What could be the ‘supposed’ genuine reasons for a Muslim male to not offer prayers? Prayers were also offered in the battlefield and as per teachings of Prophet (Peace and Blessing of Allah be Upon Him), if one can’t prayers standing, he must do it sitting, if not sitting, then lying down, if not by lying down, then at least by actions and if that’s also not possible, then the person has to do it in his mind, if he’s conscious and sane.

To nashbramhall

“Point 4 should also be not a problem as people will understand, as shaking hands with a woman is not not normal Indian practice. One can do Namasthe (that does not mean bowing the head), It is just a way of greeting in India.”



I was selected as a HR intern in a very big IT company and the HR Head (Male) took me to meet my immediate supervisor (Female) and she forwarded her hand and with all respect, I declined to shake her hands and I was rejected immediately on the grounds that ‘conservative’ people like me are not accepted in his organization and I would present a very bad picture of the organization to prospective employees during interviews. (Again, I can name the HR head and the company and the company proudly present itself as ranked in Top 50 "Best Companies to Work for in India - 2011" by Great Place to Work).

“As India is a Secular country, the organisations just cannot cater to the needs of anyone religious community's requirement. Hence, you will find that certain of the above 12 needs may need to be compromised”



Again, a practicing Muslim can’t compromise point 10 and 11. Those Muslims compromising point 10 and 11 are either ignorant or plainly careless about their faith (i.e., not practicing)

“For example, getting away from meetings to offer prayers in Points 1 and 2. Companies cannot afford o give extra time for prayers and the concerned staff member would be required to work extra time to compensate for the time taken for the prayer.”



Not at all a problem, I thought it was implied in my statement that if I am taking time-off for prayers during work hours, I must necessarily compensate by working over-time. I have no problem in doing so. In fact, it’s the other way round, if I am not doing extra time and getting the same salary (i.e., without deductions), I am dishonest to my employer.

“Regarding Point 2, I wonder what the Quran says about going to a mosque if it is not in the close vicinity!!”

As such there’s nothing in Quran or any other authentic hadith (statement of Prophet) defining the distance of the mosque to be considered valid for offering Jumuah prayers. In fact, as per the majority opinion of the Islamic scholars, a mosque isn’t a necessary requirement for offering Juma’h (Friday) prayers (i.e., in absence of a dedicated mosque, 2 or more Muslims can make a congregation in any place and offer Friday prayers). If the mosque isn’t in close vicinity (that’s the reason I mentioned 45 to 1 hours because I included the traveling time and the actual prayer time), one can just make a congregation of 2 or more Muslims in any place and offer the Jumua’h prayers. Actually, once I get the actual permission to offer prayers, where to offer prayers is flexible in nature and can be decided upon as the respective situation. I only asked of the very permission to go out of the office on every Friday afternoon for 45 mins to max 1 hour.

“I hope I am not hurting anyone's feelings. If I have please accept my apologies.”

You aren’t hurting anyone feelings. I genuinely appreciate that you took your time to answer my queries.

To sajidmamba

I wonder which city are you working and which company considers all points from 1 to 12 ? I am delighted to work in such a company

To naziyasm

“Am sorry to say this is not the topic to be discussed on Citehr kindly meet your mosque priest he will guide in context to quran guidelines.”

Its very much to discussed here only because I need the answer from working professionals, not from mosque priest.

“Kindly correct your thinking we dont have muslim by faith or name. Muslim is just a muslim he just needs Hidayat from Allah.”

Brother/Sister, with due respect, I want you to learn more about Islam before commenting on things you don’t know. I am informally studying Islam since the last 4-5 years and since last year, I am doing Bachelor of Islamic Studies. There’s indeed a difference between a Muslim by tongue and a Muslim by Faith. The difference is even mentioned in Qura’n. This is not a place for discussion on Islamic theology. I don’t want to deflect on the original topic. If interested, you can take my email or phone number and we can discuss the same.

“Offering Namaz for five times read farz namaz for that if your work load is heavy.”

Obviously, I am talking of at least Farz namaz. I am not including Sunnah. In 15 minutes, one can only offer Wudu and do 4 Rakaat Farz Namaz.

“Friday namaz u can skip bayan before namaz & it will not take 1 hr right. just request ur management to change ur lunch timings on Friday”



Ofcourse, I am not talking about Bayan, i am just referring to khutbah and the actual namaz. But I also included the distance for going and coming back to Namaz. If you mean the Khutbah (in Arabic) to be Bayan, then sorry that can't be skipped because it is a part of Namaz.

“Fasting is not a problem u can fast.(kindly explain what is the problem in fasting) During fasting we cant ask for concession we have to work as normal day.”



I am never talked of any concession; neither had I wanted a concession of even a single minute. I won’t even have given any sort of concession (except for breaking Iftar) to other Muslims if I were to be a supervisor/superior. I am only asking that what if a ‘very important’ business lunch is scheduled during the month of Ramdaan and I have to deny the request because I am fasting.

“No female will ask u to shake hands. just as samb said do namaste.”

I was selected as a HR intern in a very big IT company and the HR Head (Male) took me to meet my immediate supervisor (Female) and she forwarded her hand and with all respect, I declined to shake her hands and I was rejected immediately on the grounds that ‘conservative’ people like me are not accepted in his organization and I would present a very bad picture of the organization to prospective employees during interviews. (Again, I can name the HR head and the company and the company proudly present itself as ranked in Top 50 "Best Companies to Work for in India - 2011" by Great Place to Work). Not only that, I was severely rebuked for being a fanatic and extremist for doing so by a teacher of mine in the university where I study (and guess where I study, it’s Jamia Millia Islamia). And before this scolding, I was rebuked by two other teachers of my college for the same issue (Ironically, one was Muslim amongst the three).

“Keep your records updated then the problem of cheating will not arise.”

Obviously, I will keep my records straight and I am only asking if the seniors would ask me to do some manipulation. Again, I am asking this question because one of my Hindu friends has worked for around 4-5 years as a HR executive in one of the top MNC in Gurgaon and he told me that its common practice to do manipulation and forging of HR audits so that to present a ‘acceptable’ picture to seniors. Again, it might be helping the organization but if it’s a lie, it’s a lie. If it’s cheating, it’s cheating and there’s no compromise on it, period!

“Boss is asking u to forge documents u r not insisting on forge document Allah knows what u r dont worry just pray for ur boss.”

This is not how it works in Islam, Brother/Sister! Allah says, “Help one another in righteousness and piety, but do not help one another in sin and transgression.” Surat Al-Ma'idah, (verse 2). If I assist my boss in doing sin, I would carry the burden of sin on my shoulders. So, I just can’t wash-off my hands by saying it was my boss who asked me to do so. Yes, there are certain things which are obligated by Government of India and I have no choice but to comply with the law of land because it was something which is enforced, not a matter of choice. (For e.g., writing/maintaining the PF/ESI records of employees is sin in Islam because of involvement of Interest/Gambling but since it’s a mandatory requirement of Govt. of India, one has no choice but to do it because he has to do it even in his company)

“we are religious tolerance people no problem in attending or arranging parties. Kindly take help of your mosque cleric he will explain u do's & dont's.”



Please don’t use the word, ‘we’. Talk for yourself. Islam is indeed but there are certain things a Muslim can’t do. I already know the Islamic rulings on the basis of which I am making such points.

“message ur problem in Istakara website they will reply you.”

This is not an issue of Istekhara. Istekhara has to be done in the case of deciding between two equally permissible matters and moreover, one does Istekhara himself (or herself), not asking others to do it. (Anyway, again this is deflecting from the topic)
21st January 2012 From India, Mumbai
whether its a religious issue or a personal matter is not the area of discussion here.

What is important is that it is an issue which is causing difficulty to PeacePromoter and its a matter of concern for his professional life

and its good that he has the courage to openly ask it to all.

The only thing we need to do with respect to his question is to give our suggestions to him.

Let him decide which one is best for him.

Moreover his question is pertaining to an "Indian Corporation"; not a corporation driven primarily by another religion....although it appears to be so....or else he would have asked with respect to any organisation in the world!!!

i feel Sajid Muhammed from Kannur has given a very nice answer...Also in my view whether we are from X Religion or Y Religion, we are human beings primarily and just as each individual has different ideas the same way a group of individuals follow different religions.

And similarly an organisation is also made of a group of individuals who work for a common goal...and have rules and regulations just like one has dos and donts prescribed by the religious texts.

What one needs to do is to balance his personal and professional life...and for this situation i feel that whichever indian corporation PeacePromoter would want to join it is essential for him to study that organisation in detail (its vision, its practices, its rules, etc)before he goes for the interview and also put forth his requirements to the interview panel and see if a feasible solution (that satisfies both the applicant and the company) can be arrived at.

Personally i dont think its a big issue. Its just that here we have a person who wants to practice his beliefs while excelling in his professional life. its just that he needs to pick up the right organisation. Thats it!!!

I'm extremely sorry and apologise if i have hurt anyone in the process of sharing my views.

Regards,

Neel.
21st January 2012 From India, Bangalore
It is a generalized statement, applicable to all Muslims and proven by Quran and authentic Sunnah. No person becomes a Muslim just because he/she was born to Muslim parents. One has to have the genuine faith (i.e., one is making an informed decision to accept Islam, irrespective of the faith of his parents) accompanied by righteous actions and prohibition of sinful ones.

Read my above post. I am asking of the very permission to offer Salah in the first place.

Read my above post. I am asking of the very permission to offer Salah in the first place.

I know they shouldn't but I want to ask what if they would

Yes, you have used the correct word. I was actually 'blasted' by the HR head who was taking my interview (and denied the position of intern, not even a job) then by my teacher in front of the entire class for not shaking hands.

That's what I am asking. Because i was informed by 2 friends of mine (both from different organizations) there use to manipulations in statements, one was eating Pizza from HR funds.

Yes, no one should but still my boss can ask me to do so for relative of his/her.

I am yet to face such situation, that's the reason I am asking

I am yet to face such situation, that's the reason I am asking

Yes, this is what i want that no one should force me to do so and I can depute a person for the same. But will it actually work in today's corporate environment ?

What I do in such parties is of next level. My presence in such parties is itself considered approval of the same. This is how it works in Islamic law.

Yes, this is what I want that they shouldn't come. Although, technically speaking, this point is less serious that all the above.

Brother, when you don't know the situation of others, don't become judgmental. I am not making a hue and cry out of nothing. I have been discriminated on the basis of religious reasons, that's the reason i am seeking the experience of others. Read my posts above and you will understand the context. I am a hard working individual and can be an asset to the organization but come what may, i simply can't compromise on the above points.

I am double postgraduate (2 years full time PDGM from an AICTE institute + Distance Mode MBA) in management (with HR and IT as specialization) and doing my 3rd full time post-graduate in Human Resource Management. I am also UGC NET-JRF qualified. As of now, campus placement is ongoing in my department. I have to make a choice to sit or not to sit for placements. If I am not sitting, i would be looking for teaching posts in some college/university.

Hence, i came on this forum to ask questions from working professionals so that I can make an informed choice. If no organization can accept me with my religious considerations, then its no point appearing for campus placements.
21st January 2012 From India, Mumbai
My dear brother,

I have gone through your clarifications and i agree to most of your points stated. One thing i want to tell you in SHORT & SWEET. "Eversince the ALMIGHTY ALLAH had created this world, NOTHING HAD CHANGED except HUMAN'S PERCEPTION LEVEL and it is due to ADVANCEMENT OF TECHNOLOGY"

You know very well the "ROLE PLAYED BY SHAITAAN". He will always create problems for MUSLIM'S.

What i believe is that, if someone is feeling uncomfortable by your behaviour, please do make him explain(effective communication) about ISLAAMIC LIFE STYLE. I seriously don't think so and i really wonder whether, are there people who haven't UNDERSTOOD ISLAAMIC LIFE STYLE being PRACTICE BY MUSLIMS? The whole world is EXPOSED TO THE ISLAAMIC LIFE STYLE besides ISLAAM doesn't HARM ANYONE.

If you are really not happy with INDIAN ORGANISATIONS, please do search for better opportunity in SAUDI ARABIA and i am sure you will get one by the grace of ALMIGHTY.

I had worked in SAUDI ARABIA am employed in QATAR. I don't have any issues with my employer related to ISMAALIC(RELIGIOUS) ACTIVITIES. Infact we get reminded by our colleagues to offer OBLIGATORY PRAYERS when we are struck in important assignments and we are PERMITTED TO OFFER PRAYERS IN-TIME.

If i am/was wrong, please do correct me. May ALMIGHTY help you to live a ISLAAMIC LIFE.

With profound regards


21st January 2012 From India, Chennai
JazakAllah for your response, Brother. I duly appreciate it. Ofcourse, the role of devil is everywhere to be found (My Non-muslim brothers and sisters, please understand we aren’t calling you as ‘Devils’. The devil referred here is a non-human creation called jinn which creates problems for Muslims in worshiping God.). Actually, if I simply put it, Islam is Deen and Deen is way of life. A practicing Muslim is Muslim in all times and at all places. Work is also part of the larger circumference of Ibadaat (i.e., worship) in Islam and one can’t deliberately indulge in making his earning Haraam.



Brother, when the other person is so prejudiced that he’s not interested to listen then what’s left to explain ? The HR head who rejected me didn’t give me a minute to explain and understand. I maintained my patience and calm and then vacated the place when he was done with his words.

Brother, I don’t blame at all for people not understanding the Islamic lifestyle. I only blame us Muslims for not practicing Islam and making the non-muslims develop stereotypes of Muslims on the basis of non-practicing Muslims. I am studying in Jamia Millia Islamia, half of my class is of Muslims. No one else except me has a problem shaking the hands of the females. Most of them don’t even offer Salah. Most of the Muslims working here in corporations are like such. Hence, out of nowhere, a Muslim appears for an interview and declines to shake hands with the female interviewer, it is bound to happen the interview may think that I am some type of ‘fanatic’, ‘fundamentalist’, ‘conservative’ or ‘extremist’ amongst the lot and hence they may decline my candidature on the fear that I may spoil their corporate culture (this is exactly what was told to me by the person who declined taking me as an intern in his organization)

Brother, I would be glad to work in KSA and I have tried searching there. The problem is that I am a fresher and don’t have any experience other than 8 months teaching experience in an institute. Be it bayt, jobsindubai, gulftalent, a fresher can’t get a job there. Even through local placement agents, they need an experienced candidate for both industry and academic jobs.

If you know some contacts through which I can get a job in KSA, please do let me know. I would be extremely grateful.
21st January 2012 From India, Mumbai
Thank you Mr. Neel. This is what I intended when I posted my questions. It is indeed a matter of concern for my professional life and the choices I need to make (i.e., to decide between Industry and Academics)

I also want that the answer of Sajid Mohammad should become reality with all organizations. Yet, in reality this is not the case. I face prejudice and that's the reason i have created the post in the first place.

It's a good suggestion but I wonder if there exists any organization which categorically mentions that we won't accept anyone who declines shaking hands with females. I don't know how it would sound to the interviewer if I ask him/her straightforward if they could accept me as an employee with my restrictions. Yet, I have no choice but to ask the interviewer the same.

Well, having being rejected on this basis of this issue, its a big issue for me. And i would glad to know such organizations (in New Delhi) who can accommodate me with my religious practices.
21st January 2012 From India, Mumbai
My dear brother,
I suggest you to continue with your job rather taking it seriously. You continue to behave the way you like, if anyone is objecting, LET THEM DO SO. Your BEHAVIOUR is not going to cause HARM to anyone nor anyone is going to incur any kind of LOSS. I don't want to write anything more, though it is very useful information but, i know there are NARROW MINDED PROFESSIONALS(xyz) who will not accept it as GENUINE INFORMATION, similar to those whom you met till date.
Please complete your ONE YEAR, Inshaa ALLAH, ALLAH itself will do something for you. I am just a HUMAN BEING.
With profound regards
21st January 2012 From India, Chennai
Thank you for your kind consideration. I am not doing any job right now. I am a full time student of Masters in HRM in 4th semester. Time of campus placement has started and we are contacting different companies for the same. We are expecting quite a few recruiters. I have to make a choice to sit for the interviews or opt for applying as lecturer in management institutes.
21st January 2012 From India, Mumbai
Dear Peace promoter,

Thank you for your response. I worked in India over 40 years ago. I am retired now. In how many organisations did you find that you were rejected for not shaking hands? A single experince should not deter you from searching. It does not matter how large a company is or how famous. Companies, as far as I know, do not have any written policies on "Shaking hands" or attending parties. However, avoidng meetings at certain hours may not be possible.

Please tell me in which country there is no discrimination for people who are different. Non-islamists face discrimination in Islamic countries; non-Christians truly following their faith face some sort of problems in Christian countries, "Whites" may face discrimination in a predominatly "Black" nation, etc. In the 1960s people who emigrated to the UK had to face a lot of discrimination; the life is much better now.

Please also see Expat Workers Treatment By Saudis; How Expats are treated in Saudi Arabia and discuss with other who re in SA or returned from SA before you decide to emigrate.

I am sure there are organisations in India which take a different stand to the one that you have experienced. The organisations that Peer Mohamed Sardhar has worked for that matter.

I am not competent to comment on the religious belief of anyone.

Wish you all the best in your search for internship/employment.

Have a nice day.

Simhan
21st January 2012 From United Kingdom
Dear Simhan,
I have been made to feel by my teachers (in the institute i study) and by my class mate (having 4-5 years work ex as HR Mgr) that I shouldn't go for industry jobs because with my religious restrictions, i would face discrimination as a norm, rather than an exception. Hence, I came to this forum to know if this is a norm or an exception. Anyway, reading the replies, I believe what happened with me was an exception, rather than norm.
I agree that everyone faces discrimination in some way or another in some place or another. I also agree with the condition in Saudi Arabia, my friends and relatives have testified to it.
I only needed to know the tolerance level towards such a person who comes with such a baggage of religious beliefs because I am in my final semester and I have to make a career choice between going for industry or academics.
Regards
22nd January 2012 From India, Mumbai
Dear Peacepromoter,
I would sincerely advise you to get some industrial experience before venturing into academia.
Could you kindly elaborate on the condition in SA that your friends andrelatives have testified to for the benefit of other bloggers?
Have a nice day.
Simhan
22nd January 2012 From United Kingdom
Yes, I think I have to try few other organizations before going into academics.
I was referring to the discrimination faced by non-westerners. I came to know from multiple people that Indians(irrespective of their religion), Pakistanis, Philippians, Malay, Indonesians face discrimination in terms of pay and benefits as compared to a westerner on the same post and with the same academic qualification and work experience. Although, it is absolutely contradictory to Islamic tenets but unfortunately its a harsh reality faced by many. I also agree that one should never argue with a Saudi otherwise he should prepare for real trouble. There are many such cases, I have to open a new thread to discuss all of them.
22nd January 2012 From India, Mumbai
Dear Peace Promoter,

Whatever you had received as information from your friends and relatives is the FACT and its common in MIDDLE EAST. Perhaps you haven't received information about those EXPATRIATES living in WESTERN COUNTRIES or any other FOREIGN COUNTRIES. I would say that, its a PSYCHOLOGICAL WAR between the NATIVE & FOREIGNERS. For example, just imagine, will WESTERNERS allow NON-WESTERNERS to take LEAD in their OWN COUNTRY? NEVVVERRRR.......

"A LION, CANNOT RULE IN ANOTHER LION'S DEN".

Perhaps, it will take time for you to understand THE NATURE OF HUMANS living in different parts of this world brother. Please do not allow INFORMATION, that SOUNDS NEGATIVE to be STORED in your BRAIN, nor give it HIGH IMPORTANCE. Its the responsibility of every HUMAN TO DEMONSTRATE HUMANITY. But, its not happen to the level as it is EXPECTED.

Till doom's day, there will GOOD & BAD. We have to learn to SURVIVE in this world as long as we are ALIVE.

PLEASE DO NOT THINK TOOOOOO MUCH ELSE YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE LIVE TO WITH PEACE OF MIND. JUST DO YOUR JOB AND LEAVE EVERYTHING TO ALMIGHTY ALLAH. Its my SINCERE ADVICE to YOU.

With profound regards


22nd January 2012 From India, Chennai
Dear Shaik Abdul
Things have changed in the West. There are Asians holding CEO positions in large organisations; some of the examples can be found at In Pictures: Eight Indian CEOs At Big U.S. Companies - Vikram Pandit - Forbes.com A number of my friends have held managerial postions in America and hold high positions in American Universities and are professors in the UK. I have no idea about the situation in other countries.
However, it is used to be different 20-30 years ago. It was even difficult to find accommodation in certain areas and the same is true even now in conservative areas. People learnt to survive and progress by educatng ourselves to be better qualified than the locals.
Have a nice day.
Simhan
22nd January 2012 From United Kingdom
Dear Mr. Simhan,
I do agree with you but, wherever there is a PROPORTIONAL or HIGH DEMAND, in lieu of LOCAL'S, EXPATRIATE'S are hired. Even this is found in MIDDLE EAST but, honestly speaking, in certain areas, even though EXPATRIATE's holding THE TOP MOST POSITION, they are just similar to other EMPLOYEES, may be authorized with certain POWERS subject to BOUNDARY OF OPERATIONS(LIMITATIONS).
Hope you agree with the facts because there are LIMITATIONS.
With profound regards

22nd January 2012 From India, Chennai
The CEOs I have quoted are exceptions. Similarly the list of prominent Indians in the list at List of Indian Americans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In general, you are right; minorities face problems wherever they may be.
22nd January 2012 From United Kingdom
Exceptions can't be generalized. We know that Indian students were made to wear radio collars in their ankles. We know that Indian students were killed in racial hatred in Australia and UK.
So, if we are talking of discrimination, it happens everywhere because bad elements are present everywhere in the world.
Even within India, we know how north Indians were treated in Mumbai and so on and so forth.
If we start talking about racism in general, we would deflect from the original topic.
22nd January 2012 From India, Mumbai
Dear Peace Promoter,

What i felt was, the humans across the globe are victim of PRECONCEIVED MINDSET, which is INHERITED and its difficult to change unless the ACCEPT TRUTH as TRUTH ITSELF. Hence such bad activities are difficult to be controlled but still, the hardwork is still in progress to make HUMAN'S REALIZE about FACTS which is nothing but TRUTH. Generations had passed by, there were very few SCHOLARS who studied ISLAM with an objective and its relevance to HUMAN MANKIND as why it was PRESCRIBED TO BE FOLLOWED STRICTLY. Muslims itsef belonging to the other part of world(apart from ARAB NATIONS) later understood The FACTS when great SCHOLARS like DR. ZAKIR NAIK first started DESCRIBING THE AUTHENTIC FACTS and BRIDGING THE GAP(MISUNDERSTANDINGS/MISCONCEPTS) between MUSLIMS & NON MUSLIMS about the GOD/ALLAH that we HUMANS were worshiping, followed by MR. AHMED DEEDAT, MR. YASSIR FAZAGA, MR. YOSUF ESTES and many more.

It will take time for HUMANS to understand about ISLAM and its BENEFITS. What need to be changed is the MINDSET, which is nothing but STRONG BELIEF.

It is we HUMANS who are responsible for everything as we had created our own CULTURES which is not based on FACTS but individuals COMFORT STYLES. We don't accept ourselves as HUMANS FIRST but, we categories ourselves in many ways.

Kindly do correct if i am wrong.

With profound regards
23rd January 2012 From India, Chennai
Dear PeacePromoter,
You are right to say that we have digressed. That's what happens when even one moves from the topic in a public forum. However in order to impress on people that discrimination in whatever form is inherent in humans, we have to give examples from other areas.
As I have been away from India for long, I can't express opinions on what the situation in India is. However, as there are MNCs in India, discrimination may not be company policies but followed by individual managers. It's not advisable to name the organisations in a public forum.
Have a nice day.
Simhan
23rd January 2012 From United Kingdom
Dear Brother,
Am Sorry for the misunderstanding Isthakara website has got team of professionals too.
Thanks for all those who corrected me for my lack of knowledge.
I dont think so consulting a priest is wrong suggestion, most of the times i consult my senior priest so i suggested.
Dear khadir,
I have knowledge of Islam i hope u know that i may be wrong in few understandings by the way thanks for clarification.
24th January 2012 From India, Bangalore
i agree with mr. Nashbramhall and others.
You can manage with many of the privileges but not all.
This applies to hindus living in australia.
You may have to sacrifice some to manage a better life with others.
Sharing/ caring with others is more important for any religion.
Regards
leo lingham
20th December 2012 From India, Mumbai
Oh my god such a big big posts i dont want to raise an issue but i know of muslim doctor who would treat patient rather than making patient wait during namaz timings similarly there are lots of muslims working as doctors firefighters police and other emergency jobs wherein they put forward duty before religion.
God will surely help them all the best
20th December 2012 From India, Madras
Yes, in case of medical or any other emergencies, Muslim not only can but 'should' delay the Salaah (Namaz) and attend the emergency. Please don't mix up things, these are two different situations.
20th December 2012 From India, Mumbai
Dear PeacePromoter,
Glad to know that in emergency Namaz can and should be delyed. I was sure that all religious pratices are flexible and agree with the following
"What is duty under these prevailing conditions may not be duty under different conditions. Desha, kala, paristhiti (place, time and condition) decide the nature of what we are expected to do, so that we cannot have a textbook of the nature of duty anywhere in the world. We have to use our common sense, our feeling, and our understanding. Understanding is the word that will be underlined when we move forward through the chapters of the Bhagavad Gita. The word buddhi, reason, is emphasised always." The Doctrine of the Bhagavad Gita - To Thine Own Self Be True - Chapter 7
20th December 2012 From United Kingdom
I agree with this line (in context of Islam), but don't agree with the other that we can't have a textbook. We actually have a text book and that text book is called Quran and we also have a teacher or implementer of that text book, whom we call as Prophet. For all the things which are not explicitly mentioned in the above two sources, we have certain general principles derived from the sources and codified into a brand of Islamic sciences, called 'Fiqh' (Islamic jurisprudence). Contrary to the popular perception, Fiqh is dynamic in nature and does incorporate changes.
In case of emergencies, we can eat Pork and drink alcohol and this is even mentioned explicitly in Quran.
I am mentioning this not as a laymen or my 'own' understanding of Islam but as a formal student of Bachelor of Islamic Studies.
20th December 2012 From India, Mumbai
One should not take everything literally. When it says "We can't have a texbook..." it does not mean we can't have Quran or a teacher. But we should use our judgment given the circumstances. Are not different Teachers interpreting the Text in different ways, giving rise to different sects imposing their own will on others.
I am really heartened to note that in certain circumstances you are even allowed to eat pork and drink alcohol, as I have muslim friends who drink alcohol.
20th December 2012 From United Kingdom
I totally agree with you and that's what I am implying that Islamic law is not devoid of righteous judgement to suit different situations (without comprising certain basic tenets).

Yes, i don't deny that people withing the Muslim community try to interpret text to suit their whims and desires and sometimes it leads to disastrous consequences. But in the previous post, I also said that interpretation can only be given by Prophet and that is the only acceptable interpretation which a 'righteous' Muslim has to follow.

When I said certain circumstances, it simply pertains to situation which one's life is in danger and alcohol is the only available resource which can ward off that danger. This danger could be due to extreme hunger or a fatal disease for which alcohol is the only cure.

Your Muslims friends who drink alcohol are blatant sinners. They are not at all representing Islam. They have fallen prey to their own selfish desires because imbibing alcohol is one of the major sins in Islam. It is also called 'Ummul Khabaais' or the mother of all sins.
20th December 2012 From India, Mumbai
Now my dear friend please try to understand just as a patient is important to a doctor , saving lives is important to a firefighter a CEO or BOSS is important to a Office Going person as he is the one who is to answer if work is not done in time.

So your mentioning in first post " even if he is busy with CEO in meeting" is totally baseless, when you agree to doctors emergencies then you should also accept that for your company during important meetings, or interviews or discussions which happen during the day and if they fall during namaz time or friday they are important than prayer and require your time.

Until you realize this and change your mindset it wont do you any good. Because in all these things only you need to suffer. I lived all my childhood in mughal dominated city wont divulge the name and have had close muslim friends, and it totally depends on their brought up, one friend doesnt live to eat non veg, another muslims used to make fun of him, another one was just like you, he used to go to a room upstairs 5 times a day for namaz, and the beauty of this is his supervisor who was a muslim himself had fired this guy because everytime he used to meet this supervisor, he used to greet in urdu salam wallekum, so in a day time you meet your supervisors numerous time in a day and every time he used to greet in urdu and while leaving also he used to greet, that supervisor who inspite of being muslim clearly explained to subordinate that religion and work is different once you wished me good morning in urdu in morning thats enough here we come to work.

Because of this one person leaving work place during office time 4-5 times in a day other staff i.e hindu + muslim staff together, felt that why he is doing like that as to them or to office as per rule you are only allowed lunch break for half hr and this person used to take 15 mins off for 4-5 times a day whereas other muslims of his age i.e 22-25 yrs old did not go with him for namaz, He also did not join us in lunch time wherein we used to have lunch all together and only he used to go upstairs and do namaz and eat alone. From your post i can only remember that persons name in my thoughts.

Also coming to other points, let me tell you even hinduism prohibits all these things but i wholely agree that many times i have done all of the below mentioned points at some or other point in work / life. Many many many times no record of that, but what to do you just dont have a choice, also i dont regret doing these things because all done on behalf of others i.e pressure given by others. These things happen in life and i dont care about them as long as the bad things are not originated in my mind and are done due to pressure given by others. Why we do these to earn money and keep our job stable, so if we have own business then we need not do these things at all......

5. A Muslim can never lie or cheat with anyone (i.e., A Muslim can't lie or cheat with other employees on the behalf of his boss.)

6. A Muslim can't forge HR annual statements or do any manipulation in HR audit - on behalf of his boss

7. A Muslim can't do any favoritism or nepotism on behalf of his boss

8. A Muslim must ensure equity and justice at all times and with all people

9. A Muslim can't pay or accept bribes

So friend, it is your life but truth is you cannot just do these things in office tomorrow if it is objected you may feel hurt, best thing you can do is instead of being employed you can be employer start your own business be your boss work at your own timings follow your own policies, because it is not a question of HR job or Accounts or Engineering job, even a hotel receiptionist needs to tell lies or forge data or tell rooms are full when they really arent, so best option is if these things hurt your conscience too much, you start own business and be your boss.

__________________

So friend, it is your life but truth is you cannot just do these things in office tomorrow if it is objected you may feel hurt, best thing you can do is instead of being employed you can be employer start your own business be your boss work at your own timings.
21st December 2012 From India, Madras
Indian organizations are secular and do not and should not make any concessions for any practitioner of any religion.
Religious practice is a personal matter - no one should interfere in your religious practice and you should not expect any additional concessions.
21st December 2012 From India, Delhi
Dear all
first of all the question is "Can a 'practicing' Muslim work as a HR professional in an Indian corporation ? "
In this regards Mr.naziyasm is right
work has no religion , ( Muslim or hindu or others) it has only loyal employees and in above discussions those who explained about quran points or any other religious words
please dont raise such points in open forums because work is worship for every human beings( irrespective of religion ) muslims will follow their religion and praying namaz five times is farz but allha said to said see (dian and dunya )
i hope u people understand
those have any point against my thread
please clean the dust because dust is ego and with out cleaning u cant see the people with open heart
regards
alam
21st December 2012 From India, Hyderabad
Hi
I feel above all things said and done.... at the end of the day when we look into the mirror we need to be able to look into our own eyes and say that you have lived the day worthly and thank God/Allah/Ishwar that he blessed us with a day to live, experience, cherish the beauty of nature, relations, emotions etc. Live in the present instead of future. Kal kisne dekha hai !!!
21st December 2012 From India, Pune
Just to add....only if we could pray for a few seconds/minutes to our God every day to make this world a safe and peaceful place our united prayers will generate positive energy around us and repel the negative energies.
Please forgive me if I have hurt anyone :)
21st December 2012 From India, Pune
Discussions on such topic and comments what ever positive or negetive , in favour or not..can really hurt sentiments....rather it shoud be kept as personalised discssion with hr or any corporate affirs expert..
Thanks and regards
Gourisankar.S
Principal
SVC
22nd December 2012 From India, Pune
Thank your friend for putting your time and effort to reply to this post. And thanks for giving me an opportunity to clear out certain misconceptions about my faith.

First and foremost, with all due respect, your faith may be ‘totally baseless’ to you but to me, my faith has more worth than my own life. Actually, I find your comparison between a medical emergency and a meeting with a CEO as ‘totally baseless’. You are comparing things with a difference of Chalk and Cheese. Meeting with a CEO is generally for business reasons, whereas a medical emergency requires saving the life of a human being. My faith tells me that saving the life of a human being (irrespective of his religion) is as if saving the life of entire humanity. (…And whoever saves one human life - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely… Qura’n 5.32). Hypothetically, and God forbid, if I would have been a doctor and you come to me as a patient with medical emergency, my faith ‘obligates’ me to leave all prayers (be it Friday or otherwise) and attend to you and treat you in the best possible manner.

I would say exactly the same to you. I believe you have a HR background and if you do, then you must have studied perception and perceptual biases. What you are doing here, is termed as ‘projection error’ where you might be having an understanding of your own faith and you think, all other faiths and ideologies should work in the same manner and if they don’t, there exists some problem in them. Sorry, I use to think like you 6 years ago before I accepted Islam. But when I accepted Islam, contrary to popular perception, Islam led me to more tolerance and more understanding. Between, nowhere since the time this post was originally posted, I ever said that I am suffering. Brother, I am not at all suffering, instead I am extremely happy since the last 6 years and as of now I am already employed in a Central university in Delhi.

Now you are affected by a perceptional error called ‘stereotyping’. I have already clarified this in a post before. To know and understand Islam, you can’t take heed from the actions of contemporary Muslims but only the actions, statements and approvals of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). Anyway, nowhere in Islam, it is mandatory to eat non-veg. A vegetarian Muslim can be equally good (in sight of Islam) when compared to a Muslim who eats meat. Secondly, Salam Aleikum is NOT an urdu greeting. It’s a Arabic term which harmlessly means ‘Peace be upon you’ and it’s mentioned in Quran (13.24) and it’s the official Islamic greeting. Yet, it’s not obligatory, not even to Muslims. Had I been in place of your friend, I wouldn’t have resorted to saying Salam Aleikum even to my Muslim supervisor, until I sensed the culture of that place.

I believe you are exaggerating the number 4-5 because technically speaking he can only take a break of 4 times a day if he’s offering all his 5 daily prayers in the office itself and that’s only possible when the office timings are between 4.30 AM – midnight. Otherwise, it can be never be more than 2 breaks (and not even a single break, if the office gets over at 5 PM) the other people who were not offering Namaz were wrong; they were obligated to offer namaz. They were bad examples. Yet, if he violated certain rules by taking extra breaks, the administration was justified in sacking him.

From your post, I don’t want to remember anyone’s name because then I would also be stereotyping. I want to remember the majority of Hindus, whom I met during my last 5-6 years, who were not unbigoted, but also use to understand my faith. As a matter of fact, the last 2 years of my education were in a Muslim dominated institute and the classmate whom I use to talk most and still do, was a Hindu. Yesterday only he was there at my place and we had a long conversation over a cup of hot coffee and nice chicken kebabs

Again, you are trying to impose your understanding and your practice of your faith to Islam and its practice. First and foremost, to say these things are prohibited in Hinduism is a debatable assertion. There are virtually hundreds of books in Hinduism (4 Vedas, more than 200 Upnishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Harivamsa, Agama, Manu Smirti and other law givers, Geeta, 18 Mahapuranas, 19 Upapuranas amogst others) and thousands of sages and saints (each coming up with his own understanding to reach God) and millions of Gods and Goddesses. I don’t see say any central authority, not even unity among Hindus to define a standard and universal code of law (defining do’s and don’ts for hindus) for Hindus to follow (irrespective of their caste, creed, color, race, language or nationality). Even the word Hindu and Hinduism is a misnomer. Unlike Islam and Muslim, the word Hindu and Hinduism is nowhere mentioned in any of the scriptures of Hinduism. Even the word ‘Hindu’ has more of geographical connotation than a religious one. Geographically, I have no problem calling myself as a Hindu because I live in India, Hindustan. There’s even a whole debate between the Aryans and Dravidians as to claim the original ancestry of India. In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling: When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more. My point of mentioning all this is that culturally you are programmed in such a way because it’s easier for you to mould yourself and adjust to the environment to satisfy your desires.

For Muslims, we believe that every single action of ours gets recorded and we would be duly recompensed for all what we did in this life. Nothing escapes God’s knowledge, no matter how insignificant or fleeting it might seem. God says: “Surely if there be but the weight of the grain of a mustard-seed, even though it is in (the heart of) rock, or (high above) in the heaven or (deep down) in the earth, God will bring it to light; surely God is the Knower of Subtleties, All-Aware” [Sūrah Luqmān: 16]. And God says: “In whatever business you may be, and whatever portion you may be reciting from the Qur'an, and whatever deed you may be doing, We are witness to what you are engaged in. Not the weight of an atom on Earth or in heaven is hidden from your Lord, nor anything lesser or greater but it is recorded in a clear Book.” [Sūrah Yūnus: 61] Hence, as a devout Muslim, I have to make sure all my actions (manifest or concealed) have to be in accordance to the tenets of Islam. Likewise, when we engage in our worldly affairs, like our jobs or our commerce, we will be conscious that there is much more at stake than the supervision of the human authorities appointed over us. We will know that God is watching us and taking account of our deeds, and nothing escapes His notice. We will engage in our work with honesty and integrity. This is why Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “Allah loves it when any of you engages in some work, that he does it well.”

Again, this could be based on your belief that you are the only cause of your sustenance. In Islam, we believe that our sustenance comes from God alone, yet we have to pour in our best efforts to acquire it in a just and righteous manner. One of the names of God in Quran is ‘Ar-Razzaq’ (The Provider). Quran says “And there is no creature on earth but that upon God is its provision [rizq], and He knows its place of dwelling and place of storage. All is in a clear register.” (Qur’an, 11:6). Hence, God says in the Quran: “And if any one puts his trust in God, sufficient is (God) for him. For God will surely accomplish his purpose. Verily, for all things has Allah appointed a due proportion” (Surah Al-Talaq, verses 3) Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “If only you relied on God a true reliance, He would provide sustenance for you just as He does the birds: They fly out in the morning empty and return in the afternoon with full stomachs.And also He says in the Quran: “And for those who have God consciousness, He (ever) prepares a way out. And He provides for him from (sources) he never could imagine” (Surah Al-Talaq, Verses 2-3) Hence, following the tenets of God is more important for a Muslim because a Muslim has a faith which tells him sustenance comes from God, he only has to acquire it through righteous means.

Thanks for your suggestion, I have already switched my career to academics and the by the grace and mercy of God, I have already got a job in a central university and now I am opting for PhD. I have also let my options for a PSU job because after staying for 4 months (as a HR trainee) at NTPC’s Corp office in New Delhi, I would say the culture of a PSU is still much tolerant of my actions.

Yet, indeed my future plan is to go for entrepreneurship (in education sector) but as of now I would like to collect experience and resources.

(P.S.: My intention is not to offend anyone with this post of mine. I felt I was misunderstood and hence I just wanted to clarify)
23rd December 2012 From India, Mumbai
This was my original thought when I created the original post. I was not sad, depressed or anything and neither I had any problem with it. I only wanted to reinforce my decision to switch from corporate to academics and I wanted to gather diverse views on it. What you said is true and it would be unjustified on the part of a person who asks for any additional concessions on the basis of his religious beliefs.
23rd December 2012 From India, Mumbai
Dear Mr. Alam,

With your name, I believe you are a Muslim. With all due respect, please don’t speak about Islam when you don’t know about it (As per an authentic narration of Prophet, it’s a heinous sin to quote falsehood in his name). I am also a student of Islamic studies and I am speaking on behalf of Quran and authentic narrations of Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him), I am not speaking to please anyone or to please myself.

You may be an expert on Hinduism or other faiths, but at least your knowledge on Islam is extremely limited. Who said work has got no religion? In Islam, working ‘Halal’ (permissible) is very much part of Islam. I have already quoted the verses in the previous post. By your standards, there shouldn’t be any problem for a Muslim to work in a brewery, a casino, in an interest based bank, in a pub, in a meat shop selling pork, or even as a sex worker (in the countries where it’s legal to do so). Isn’t it? Since you may not be aware, there’s an entire Surah in Quran dedicated against those people who deal in fraud and cheating. It’s Surah Al-Mutaffifin, no. 83, even Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “The one who cheats (or deceives) us is not one of us.” Narrated by Muslim (101). Muslim (102) also narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “Whoever cheats (or deceives) does not belong to me.” There are many other such verses and authentic narrations of Prophet speaking on the same topic and it’s beyond the scope of this post to put them here. Hence, an employee must be sincere in his work and do it in the manner required, without cheating or deceiving anyone, and without delaying work for people. He should realize that he will stand before God and that God has only given him this job so that he can be sincere towards the Muslims.

Why I shouldn’t raise such points in an open forum? This forum is for people from the field of HR. I wanted to know the tolerance level or acceptance of such practices in Indian context and hence I created this post. I am not aware if I have done something wrong as per the rules of citehr.

Yes, work is worship even in Islam and hence that work has to be done in the manner required by Islam, otherwise it would become disobedience.

It’s good that you know its fardh (obligatory) for a Muslim to offer 5 times daily prayers. Please at least spell Allah correctly, its Allah, not allha and it’s Deen, not dian. And what do you mean by this statement of yours and where did you got it? Can you please quote a verse of Quran or an authentic narration of Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) to back your statement? Does it imply that if my boss asks to me to drink alcohol with a prospective client, should I do it? Or to sell my product claiming false qualities? Or to charge my customer wrongly ? Or if I am a doctor, prescribe unnecessary tests to my patient, just because the diagnosis centre has bribed me ? Or if I am student, try to cheat in the exam so as to get good marks ? Sorry, if this is what you meant from your statement, then to you is your Deen and to me is mine.

I hope the same for you. May God give you guidance and may he makes your understand that a Muslim can never ever deliberately misquote or falsely quote Islam. I am also not speaking on behalf of my ego, I am speaking on the basis of scripture.
23rd December 2012 From India, Mumbai
Please may my request all bloggers to kindly stick to the query raised and not get into any debate on the rights and wrongs of any postings. Thanking you in advance.
23rd December 2012 From United Kingdom
All i have to say that if this is the way you reply to the members who have given you answers, then you should not have posted your post at all, so many members have given their views and by quoting verses from quran you have proved everyones advice as wrong, so what is the ultimate goal of you asking a query and not accepting even a single reply of any member. It would have been better if you would directly have asked your priest, would have saved lot of time of members. We have quoted the relality to you , the reality which is happening and which will happen, to accept it or not is upto you. It is only a probability that out of a percentage you got into a PSU which is allowing you to practice your religion on workplace, if this would have been otherwise, you will not be so confident in replying. Anyways i really dont get the motive behind you posting such questions and then again quoting the replies of members and proving that everyone is wrong and it is their perception. Since you are quoting scriptures it would have been better if you would have posted that only muslims could reply, so that they can understand what is right and what is wrong. Because i am really not understanding your replies, and whatever i quoted everyone thinks the same way, might be not you.
23rd December 2012 From India, Madras
Could not find the edit option if the thread starters query is finished this thread can be closed i feel,
23rd December 2012 From India, Madras
The Thread Starter’s query has been answered. Hence, it is better not to post any more messages. I hope the bloggers appreciate this request.
23rd December 2012 From United Kingdom

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