Dear Fellow Recruiters,
With around 3 years in the Recruitment industry as a consultant, I have always had a strong feeling that the Corporate HR somehow look down upon the consultants. They look at consultants as low brows, mindless, and unintelligent creatures who they can play around with and take advantage of. Some of them have a hard time hiding how much they despise the consultants!! Any ideas as to why they so much dislike the Consultants? Perhaps some from the corporate can look inside and come out with some truthful answers...please!
I wonder how many of the corporate HR professionals keep in mind the "Human" factor while dealing with consultants and respect the dignity of labor. Perhaps it is time we have HR professionals taking a Hippocratic oath à la Doctors... Any opinions?
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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4With around 3 years in the Recruitment industry as a consultant, I have always had a strong feeling that the Corporate HR somehow look down upon the consultants. They look at consultants as low brows, mindless, and unintelligent creatures who they can play around with and take advantage of. Some of them have a hard time hiding how much they despise the consultants!! Any ideas as to why they so much dislike the Consultants? Perhaps some from the corporate can look inside and come out with some truthful answers...please!
I wonder how many of the corporate HR professionals keep in mind the "Human" factor while dealing with consultants and respect the dignity of labor. Perhaps it is time we have HR professionals taking a Hippocratic oath à la Doctors... Any opinions?
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Hi,
I do agree with what you say. A lot of times, people in corporates look down on consultants. Most of them themselves have moved from consultancies to corporates. I am working in a corporate as an HR professional. I have also transitioned from a consultancy. Hence, I try to understand the minds and points of view as a consultant. Corporates definitely have a lot of pressure, but yelling at people and throwing attitude does not make them work.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Madras
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I do agree with what you say. A lot of times, people in corporates look down on consultants. Most of them themselves have moved from consultancies to corporates. I am working in a corporate as an HR professional. I have also transitioned from a consultancy. Hence, I try to understand the minds and points of view as a consultant. Corporates definitely have a lot of pressure, but yelling at people and throwing attitude does not make them work.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Madras
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Hi,
It happens because they feel that the ball is in their court. I am also working in a corporate setting and understand the way of treatment. Not only corporate HRs, but even the candidates (who you call for discussing the opportunity) refuse to listen to you until you say that you are calling from a company and not from a consultancy. I feel anybody who is from a consultant's background can understand the recruitment challenges better than anyone.
Go on, All The Best. :)
Regards,
Rashmi
From India, Madras
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It happens because they feel that the ball is in their court. I am also working in a corporate setting and understand the way of treatment. Not only corporate HRs, but even the candidates (who you call for discussing the opportunity) refuse to listen to you until you say that you are calling from a company and not from a consultancy. I feel anybody who is from a consultant's background can understand the recruitment challenges better than anyone.
Go on, All The Best. :)
Regards,
Rashmi
From India, Madras
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Dear All,
I feel we should not generalize. Let's take it with a pinch of salt.
1. The number of people who have replied here are the ones who have jumped from Consultancy HR to Company HR but not vice versa. Why?
2. If anybody is a smart MBA graduate, he would have started his career with a "company" and not consultancy. Obviously, what does this mean?
For me, this means that Company HR has the upper hand. Let's be graceful in admitting this.
@ Good HR Associates:
1. The question is not about Dignity of Labour. If that would have been the case, over 60% Factory HR professionals would have had to face a strike from the unions.
2. I feel there is a backdrop in your case, which may not have been mentioned here. This is ONLY your side of the story.
For example, have you ever tried to cross the channel of communication by going to the top HR boss of your client company rather than approaching the executive level personnel who do this work? My experience is that some "smart" people try to do such stuff, hence the adverse reaction.
I am not favoring anybody. Please take this positively. It's just my personal thought.
Regards,
Shaunak Marulkar
From India, Mumbai
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I feel we should not generalize. Let's take it with a pinch of salt.
1. The number of people who have replied here are the ones who have jumped from Consultancy HR to Company HR but not vice versa. Why?
2. If anybody is a smart MBA graduate, he would have started his career with a "company" and not consultancy. Obviously, what does this mean?
For me, this means that Company HR has the upper hand. Let's be graceful in admitting this.
@ Good HR Associates:
1. The question is not about Dignity of Labour. If that would have been the case, over 60% Factory HR professionals would have had to face a strike from the unions.
2. I feel there is a backdrop in your case, which may not have been mentioned here. This is ONLY your side of the story.
For example, have you ever tried to cross the channel of communication by going to the top HR boss of your client company rather than approaching the executive level personnel who do this work? My experience is that some "smart" people try to do such stuff, hence the adverse reaction.
I am not favoring anybody. Please take this positively. It's just my personal thought.
Regards,
Shaunak Marulkar
From India, Mumbai
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Hi, I agree with the point. I am an HR professional in a company for the last year. I worked for 1 month in a consultancy for my last semester project, so I can understand the pressure on them.
But after completing my education, I got an opportunity in a company, so I can feel the difference. Even the candidates give more respect to corporate HR rather than consultants. I think it's because now any graduate can enter the consultancy field; only they should be smart enough to handle the project. However, in the case of Corporate, we require an MBA.
Thus, this difference is created by us in two ways:
1. Education-wise
2. All consultants, after gaining experience, look forward to transitioning to corporate roles. This implies they themselves give priority to corporate positions, even if they have an MBA. Consequently, this makes consultants less valuable than corporate HR.
From India, Gurgaon
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But after completing my education, I got an opportunity in a company, so I can feel the difference. Even the candidates give more respect to corporate HR rather than consultants. I think it's because now any graduate can enter the consultancy field; only they should be smart enough to handle the project. However, in the case of Corporate, we require an MBA.
Thus, this difference is created by us in two ways:
1. Education-wise
2. All consultants, after gaining experience, look forward to transitioning to corporate roles. This implies they themselves give priority to corporate positions, even if they have an MBA. Consequently, this makes consultants less valuable than corporate HR.
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi All,
According to me, at any workplace, top priority is given to the potential and smartness of the candidate. Holding an MBA does not mean that the person is superior to others. As far as consultants are concerned, they get a wide exposure in terms of a variety of requirements, dealing with different clients, etc. Both have their positives and negatives. It depends on the way we look at it. Whether we see the glass half empty or half full.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Madras
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According to me, at any workplace, top priority is given to the potential and smartness of the candidate. Holding an MBA does not mean that the person is superior to others. As far as consultants are concerned, they get a wide exposure in terms of a variety of requirements, dealing with different clients, etc. Both have their positives and negatives. It depends on the way we look at it. Whether we see the glass half empty or half full.
Regards,
Divya
From India, Madras
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Hello,
I have been both a consultant and a Corporate Recruiter.
One thing that everyone must accept is that the consulting business has become more like a rat race. The one who gets the right candidate gets the money. So keeping the "hire and money" factor in mind, consultants are forced by their team leads for target achievements, and trust me, most of the time ridiculous targets. Sometimes when there are no positions existing at all, recruitment consultants are asked to create a database by doing headhunting and simply calling leads and asking if they are looking out in the near future. The result of the above:
a) No passion within the recruitment consultant while making a call. It becomes irritating for the candidate.
b) Corporate recruiters get bugged with the resumes just being dumped - can't help because the consultant is forced to deliver on time, and the corporate recruiter is forced to get back with quality - else just be insulted by the department / technical heads.
c) A bad consultant creates a bad image for the corporate client. They forget that they need to maintain a standard while representing a corporate.
d) The corp. Recruiter has not just one or two positions... but a 100 of them (and a limited budget). In the middle of this, the consultant calls a 100 times to follow up. Literally, a few of them suck the life out. And they speak with a scripted tone - all the 100 times.
It's not that you are looked down upon purposefully - most of them have behaved that way that the very word "consultant" can itch many in the wrong place.
But there are a few whom a Corporate Recruiter would always prefer working with - because of the way they professionally carry out their business and represent the company.
There was an instance where - in my previous company, I spoke to a candidate and when I mentioned the name of the company - he was surprised. He said an IRRITATING consultant with an artificial slang called and discussed the position, and never called back. On inquiring, I learned that it was one of the consultants we hired. The candidate was finally selected.
So you see - it's really not beneficial most of the time and can spoil the image of the company if the Consultant is not doing his part well.
From India, Madras
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I have been both a consultant and a Corporate Recruiter.
One thing that everyone must accept is that the consulting business has become more like a rat race. The one who gets the right candidate gets the money. So keeping the "hire and money" factor in mind, consultants are forced by their team leads for target achievements, and trust me, most of the time ridiculous targets. Sometimes when there are no positions existing at all, recruitment consultants are asked to create a database by doing headhunting and simply calling leads and asking if they are looking out in the near future. The result of the above:
a) No passion within the recruitment consultant while making a call. It becomes irritating for the candidate.
b) Corporate recruiters get bugged with the resumes just being dumped - can't help because the consultant is forced to deliver on time, and the corporate recruiter is forced to get back with quality - else just be insulted by the department / technical heads.
c) A bad consultant creates a bad image for the corporate client. They forget that they need to maintain a standard while representing a corporate.
d) The corp. Recruiter has not just one or two positions... but a 100 of them (and a limited budget). In the middle of this, the consultant calls a 100 times to follow up. Literally, a few of them suck the life out. And they speak with a scripted tone - all the 100 times.
It's not that you are looked down upon purposefully - most of them have behaved that way that the very word "consultant" can itch many in the wrong place.
But there are a few whom a Corporate Recruiter would always prefer working with - because of the way they professionally carry out their business and represent the company.
There was an instance where - in my previous company, I spoke to a candidate and when I mentioned the name of the company - he was surprised. He said an IRRITATING consultant with an artificial slang called and discussed the position, and never called back. On inquiring, I learned that it was one of the consultants we hired. The candidate was finally selected.
So you see - it's really not beneficial most of the time and can spoil the image of the company if the Consultant is not doing his part well.
From India, Madras
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Hello HR Associates,
You've already got great replies and views from others. I am just sharing my thoughts here. Like any other slogging recruiter, I too am one of them. I understand your feelings about the treatment recruiters receive at the hands of Corporate HRs.
It’s just the human tendency to be egoistic and have that false sense of pride that you are something else when others depend on you for something beneficial for them. Here the clients, corporates, have different options for fulfilling their manpower requirements. If its not you, they have so many other consulting firms waiting to serve their requirements. This big gap in demand and supply is the major reason behind the behaviour in question.
Of course, we cannot generalize here; but most of the cases are no different.
We just have learn to live with it; there’s no way out.
From India, Kochi
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You've already got great replies and views from others. I am just sharing my thoughts here. Like any other slogging recruiter, I too am one of them. I understand your feelings about the treatment recruiters receive at the hands of Corporate HRs.
It’s just the human tendency to be egoistic and have that false sense of pride that you are something else when others depend on you for something beneficial for them. Here the clients, corporates, have different options for fulfilling their manpower requirements. If its not you, they have so many other consulting firms waiting to serve their requirements. This big gap in demand and supply is the major reason behind the behaviour in question.
Of course, we cannot generalize here; but most of the cases are no different.
We just have learn to live with it; there’s no way out.
From India, Kochi
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I strongly feel that consultants have an upper hand over their corporate counterparts. We get more chances to work with various domains and technologies. We have the opportunity to interact with a whole lot of candidates who have worked on a variety of technologies, domains, functions, etc. We are the face of the market; we get firsthand information from the market. So why feel inferior? Feel good that we are far better than they are. We have a better chance of learning than our corporate counterparts. So, I guess the bottom line is, "Don't bother about what they think, just be confident and positive in whatever you do." You will reach the pinnacle of success for sure. So keep rocking, guys! All the best. Vj.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Today's situation is such that every Tom, Dick, and Harry is a consultant. The experience faced by corporates is generalized because of the actions of the consultants themselves. There is no professionalism left in consultants.
I agree that it's a tough task, but one should prove themselves to be different from the rest. Most consultants are inexperienced, which forces corporates to build up an image of a consultant. Everybody has to suffer due to a few.
People will never be treated the way they want to be treated. Instead, stand out among the others and see how you change the thinking of corporates.
From India, Mumbai
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I agree that it's a tough task, but one should prove themselves to be different from the rest. Most consultants are inexperienced, which forces corporates to build up an image of a consultant. Everybody has to suffer due to a few.
People will never be treated the way they want to be treated. Instead, stand out among the others and see how you change the thinking of corporates.
From India, Mumbai
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I truly feel that it is just a state of mind, whether you are in a corporate setting or in consultancy. The only thing that matters is your own satisfaction with the job. At the end of the day, I know for sure it's not good to just be a hunter or a farmer; both roles are required and have a significant role to play.
There are two important aspects to consider:
A. On-the-job learning and growth
B. The salary you earn.
If these two aspects are addressed year on year, then there is no need to feel bad about anything. All roles are essential in the industry. I know corporate HR professionals who work tirelessly and achieve nothing, and I also know recruiters who work diligently but lack understanding about the business and client requirements on both functional and technical levels (just sourcing with no value addition).
Therefore, the only thing that is important is you and your surroundings, which build your future regardless of where you are and what you do.
From India, Delhi
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There are two important aspects to consider:
A. On-the-job learning and growth
B. The salary you earn.
If these two aspects are addressed year on year, then there is no need to feel bad about anything. All roles are essential in the industry. I know corporate HR professionals who work tirelessly and achieve nothing, and I also know recruiters who work diligently but lack understanding about the business and client requirements on both functional and technical levels (just sourcing with no value addition).
Therefore, the only thing that is important is you and your surroundings, which build your future regardless of where you are and what you do.
From India, Delhi
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Hi all,
I feel that different people have different perceptions. And some, of course, misuse the authority. Consultants befool HRs, and HRs don't properly entertain them. Everyone has a selfish purpose. But our selfishness should not harm the other person.
I myself moved from a consultancy into the mainstream. I feel we all should respect the human element. When we can be good to employees, why can't we be good to the vendors!
I agree that consultants are often freshers with little to no insight into the core HR field. Hence, they make errors, but it's the responsibility of their guides to train them. Most recruiters are under pressure to get maximum hirings done. They have a target. So, by hook or by crook, they try to meet the targets and concentrate more on the quantity of candidates rather than the quality of candidates.
I myself used to send as many candidates to companies as possible in light of getting more incentives. But I always focused on quality. At the end of the day, what matters most is the planning, proper communication, and being honest with ourselves.
HRs should call the consultants once in a while to convey the best possible job description and preferences to them. We can't blame anyone for such an unethical attitude; rather, we as HR and as consultants should focus on our responsibilities.
Gunjan
From India, New Delhi
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I feel that different people have different perceptions. And some, of course, misuse the authority. Consultants befool HRs, and HRs don't properly entertain them. Everyone has a selfish purpose. But our selfishness should not harm the other person.
I myself moved from a consultancy into the mainstream. I feel we all should respect the human element. When we can be good to employees, why can't we be good to the vendors!
I agree that consultants are often freshers with little to no insight into the core HR field. Hence, they make errors, but it's the responsibility of their guides to train them. Most recruiters are under pressure to get maximum hirings done. They have a target. So, by hook or by crook, they try to meet the targets and concentrate more on the quantity of candidates rather than the quality of candidates.
I myself used to send as many candidates to companies as possible in light of getting more incentives. But I always focused on quality. At the end of the day, what matters most is the planning, proper communication, and being honest with ourselves.
HRs should call the consultants once in a while to convey the best possible job description and preferences to them. We can't blame anyone for such an unethical attitude; rather, we as HR and as consultants should focus on our responsibilities.
Gunjan
From India, New Delhi
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What I feel is that there is neither the upper hand of the consultants nor the corporate HR's. The work is to recruit the best. Well, I have not been a part of the consultancy, so I cannot say. But being a part of the corporate HR, at the time of recruitment, there are some cases when literally the people don't hear you at all, which is irritating.
In my experience, I have learned that making 100 calls a day results in getting 5-10 out of them to turn up, and only 1 is selected. So, one has to bear and deal with the situation. There is no choice left for either consultants or corporate HR's.
From India, New Delhi
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In my experience, I have learned that making 100 calls a day results in getting 5-10 out of them to turn up, and only 1 is selected. So, one has to bear and deal with the situation. There is no choice left for either consultants or corporate HR's.
From India, New Delhi
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Dear All,
Once I faced a problem with one of the recruitment consultants in India. When we posted a position for a Sales Engineer in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, some of our own Sales Engineers received emails. What they did was shortlist all the candidates who were working as Sales Engineers on Naukri and send an email template that could be created within Naukri itself. Whoever replied would be followed up with and shortlisted – a poaching process!
If they do not work professionally, they will ultimately lose the business. Please inform them that we have a grading system in place, where there is a yield ratio that, if not achieved, will result in degradation.
HR Folks, please provide feedback within 5 days at least so that the no-show ratio can also be reduced.
Suresh M.G
From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
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Once I faced a problem with one of the recruitment consultants in India. When we posted a position for a Sales Engineer in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, some of our own Sales Engineers received emails. What they did was shortlist all the candidates who were working as Sales Engineers on Naukri and send an email template that could be created within Naukri itself. Whoever replied would be followed up with and shortlisted – a poaching process!
If they do not work professionally, they will ultimately lose the business. Please inform them that we have a grading system in place, where there is a yield ratio that, if not achieved, will result in degradation.
HR Folks, please provide feedback within 5 days at least so that the no-show ratio can also be reduced.
Suresh M.G
From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
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Hi all,
I read all the comments; it looks nice to read these big, long, and hard words. Maybe call it oversophistication. To the fact, recruiters are not getting respect. Well, this is not 100% true. A good recruiter would have simply opposite views. The main cause is: are recruitment consultants doing their job right? Are they working as expected? For example, corporate HR has one position to fill, and the consultant sends 15-20 resumes in 2-3 emails. Mainly, all resumes are downloaded from Naukri or Monster. Oh, come on, consultants are hired for the quality of work, not quantity. Corporate HR can also download resumes from Naukri, so why would they need you? Instead of helping corporate HR, some consultants increase their workload and the foolish follow-ups. What can you expect out of it? Ignorance, low respect.
Asha Mathew has correctly put her views across, and I do agree with it.
AIM
From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
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I read all the comments; it looks nice to read these big, long, and hard words. Maybe call it oversophistication. To the fact, recruiters are not getting respect. Well, this is not 100% true. A good recruiter would have simply opposite views. The main cause is: are recruitment consultants doing their job right? Are they working as expected? For example, corporate HR has one position to fill, and the consultant sends 15-20 resumes in 2-3 emails. Mainly, all resumes are downloaded from Naukri or Monster. Oh, come on, consultants are hired for the quality of work, not quantity. Corporate HR can also download resumes from Naukri, so why would they need you? Instead of helping corporate HR, some consultants increase their workload and the foolish follow-ups. What can you expect out of it? Ignorance, low respect.
Asha Mathew has correctly put her views across, and I do agree with it.
AIM
From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
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Hi Friends,
Here I am sharing my thoughts. I am also from consultancy, but I have received good responses from candidates. Every day, I make at least 30 calls and get positive feedback. The key lies in the way of communication and how to explain the job role concisely. Currently, I am working in a corporate setting, handling recruitment specifically. In my previous company, I faced numerous challenges, not only from the candidate's perspective but also from the employer's side. There was immense target pressure, and no one seemed to understand our struggles. Everyone was focused on achieving targets and making money. I empathize with the pains of a recruiter, but I am unsure of a viable solution to address these issues. The industry's current state is quite dire. For instance, the salary package for an HR recruiter is only 6000 rupees, even for an MBA with a year of experience. Some recruiters lack the skills to effectively communicate job openings to candidates, often providing vague explanations. Consequently, candidates tend to favor direct company applications over consultancy services.
Please let me know if you need any further assistance.
From India
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Here I am sharing my thoughts. I am also from consultancy, but I have received good responses from candidates. Every day, I make at least 30 calls and get positive feedback. The key lies in the way of communication and how to explain the job role concisely. Currently, I am working in a corporate setting, handling recruitment specifically. In my previous company, I faced numerous challenges, not only from the candidate's perspective but also from the employer's side. There was immense target pressure, and no one seemed to understand our struggles. Everyone was focused on achieving targets and making money. I empathize with the pains of a recruiter, but I am unsure of a viable solution to address these issues. The industry's current state is quite dire. For instance, the salary package for an HR recruiter is only 6000 rupees, even for an MBA with a year of experience. Some recruiters lack the skills to effectively communicate job openings to candidates, often providing vague explanations. Consequently, candidates tend to favor direct company applications over consultancy services.
Please let me know if you need any further assistance.
From India
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Consultants can become masters in recruitment and recruitment only. On the other hand, Corporate HR or Factory HR would have handled the whole gamut of HRM, which includes recruitment, T&D, PMS, OD, Welfare, Housekeeping, Security, Safety, ISO/SA 8000, TPM/Demmings certification, TQM, guest house maintenance, time office function, employee transport, canteen management, IR situations, counseling, union negotiations, representing labor cases, handling crisis situations, promotions, transfers, F&F settlements, incentives, etc.
Please decide whether consultant HR or Factory/Corporate HR offers more opportunities to perform. Consultant HR is like Test match cricket, Factory HR is like a 20/20 cricket match, and Corporate HR is a one-day cricket match.
From India, Madras
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Please decide whether consultant HR or Factory/Corporate HR offers more opportunities to perform. Consultant HR is like Test match cricket, Factory HR is like a 20/20 cricket match, and Corporate HR is a one-day cricket match.
From India, Madras
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good discussion, but I guess its turning into a fight. HRs Vs, consultants. Lets stop blaming each other and concentrate on our roles.
From India, New Delhi
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From India, New Delhi
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Gunjan, you said it well. We have no right to call anyone as 'Bloody', 'yera', 'gera'.
Even I experienced the same from the public. Their thinking style is like this. Recruitment is the job if he or she knows the languages like English and Hindi irrespective of his intelligence level, his qualification, and the challenge in recruitment. And it is rated as low. People don't even think he is the first person who understands the candidate through his resume and analyzes him and sends it to HR.
Once I said I am working as HR, people would like to know what portfolio I am handling: is it recruitment, payroll, training, PM, and wanted to judge me.
Let me tell you, Recruitment is the challenging job where you have to understand a person through his resume, even if he/she is fake or original.
Guys, please don't get disappointed. Try to learn and be positive instead of calling yourself as 'Bloody'. It hurts lots of people who learned their ABCD of HR from the recruitment.
From India, Mumbai
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Even I experienced the same from the public. Their thinking style is like this. Recruitment is the job if he or she knows the languages like English and Hindi irrespective of his intelligence level, his qualification, and the challenge in recruitment. And it is rated as low. People don't even think he is the first person who understands the candidate through his resume and analyzes him and sends it to HR.
Once I said I am working as HR, people would like to know what portfolio I am handling: is it recruitment, payroll, training, PM, and wanted to judge me.
Let me tell you, Recruitment is the challenging job where you have to understand a person through his resume, even if he/she is fake or original.
Guys, please don't get disappointed. Try to learn and be positive instead of calling yourself as 'Bloody'. It hurts lots of people who learned their ABCD of HR from the recruitment.
From India, Mumbai
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Being a corporate HR head of an MNC now, after experiencing being a Manpower Consultant as well, following more than 15 years of work in the manufacturing and corporate sectors initially. My experience was not very good with a few Corporate HR people as I found them quite arrogant and suffering from a superiority complex. More than 50% of people were good to talk to, receptive, and responsive. My belief is that such behavioral traits stem from personality and bad experiences dealing with consultants.
Does a displaced HR person know no other job than working as a consultant to survive?
At the same time, there will always be differences when on the other side of the table as the source of the business (Corporates), so one should realize the disparity and adjust to the situation. Another important point is the competency of individuals in the consultancy business playing a significant role, with incompetent/unprofessional individuals being left behind, complaining of unfair treatment.
This phenomenon holds true in all fields, so why only in the consultancy business?
Sundeep Wadhwa
From India, New Delhi
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Does a displaced HR person know no other job than working as a consultant to survive?
At the same time, there will always be differences when on the other side of the table as the source of the business (Corporates), so one should realize the disparity and adjust to the situation. Another important point is the competency of individuals in the consultancy business playing a significant role, with incompetent/unprofessional individuals being left behind, complaining of unfair treatment.
This phenomenon holds true in all fields, so why only in the consultancy business?
Sundeep Wadhwa
From India, New Delhi
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Dear Consultants,
I do agree with your point. Yes, most of the corporate HRs feel like they are supremos, but I have seen most of the HRs I had worked with for the past 15 years who cannot distinguish the difference between different tools, software, and technologies.
Let me provide a real example. When I was working with iGATE Bangalore as a Manager 5 years ago, there was an HR (Agarwal) who always shortlisted candidates based on knowledge rather than experience, even when the requirement was for experienced individuals in automation tools for software testing (she did not even know the difference between functional and performance testing). However, I was truly impressed by her people management and negotiation skills (nobody surpasses her in the HR world).
One of the comments by HR (Shaunak) above questions how to consider a smart HR (by considering a person who joined a corporate company). What parameters did you consider, and what qualifications do you require? What HR practices do you have in mind for consideration? Do not underestimate MBA graduates, and remember that if they are not sourcing profiles in time with their hard work and determination, corporates cannot progress with their projects (for feedback, you can refer to Infosys Hyderabad's HR department and see how consultancies play a key role in their operations).
Before criticizing consultants, remember that they are your supporters, and you cannot reach your targets on time without them (this is 100% certain). Can you show me one MNC that has reached its 100% target in sourcing manpower on time without using consultancies?
I urge all HRs once again: DO NOT criticize consultants and do not underestimate their talents. Moreover, if you wish to criticize, review your own practices.
Thanks and Regards,
Vijay Raghavan
Delivery Head
IVS Practice
Infosys
Chennai
From India, Pune
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I do agree with your point. Yes, most of the corporate HRs feel like they are supremos, but I have seen most of the HRs I had worked with for the past 15 years who cannot distinguish the difference between different tools, software, and technologies.
Let me provide a real example. When I was working with iGATE Bangalore as a Manager 5 years ago, there was an HR (Agarwal) who always shortlisted candidates based on knowledge rather than experience, even when the requirement was for experienced individuals in automation tools for software testing (she did not even know the difference between functional and performance testing). However, I was truly impressed by her people management and negotiation skills (nobody surpasses her in the HR world).
One of the comments by HR (Shaunak) above questions how to consider a smart HR (by considering a person who joined a corporate company). What parameters did you consider, and what qualifications do you require? What HR practices do you have in mind for consideration? Do not underestimate MBA graduates, and remember that if they are not sourcing profiles in time with their hard work and determination, corporates cannot progress with their projects (for feedback, you can refer to Infosys Hyderabad's HR department and see how consultancies play a key role in their operations).
Before criticizing consultants, remember that they are your supporters, and you cannot reach your targets on time without them (this is 100% certain). Can you show me one MNC that has reached its 100% target in sourcing manpower on time without using consultancies?
I urge all HRs once again: DO NOT criticize consultants and do not underestimate their talents. Moreover, if you wish to criticize, review your own practices.
Thanks and Regards,
Vijay Raghavan
Delivery Head
IVS Practice
Infosys
Chennai
From India, Pune
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Dear Divya,
Thank you for your post. I wish we could have more HR professionals like you who are sensitive and mature to see others' points of view. Your sense of professionalism extends beyond a narrow view of HR as a chore. I am sure you keep in mind the "Human" in HR.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thank you for your post. I wish we could have more HR professionals like you who are sensitive and mature to see others' points of view. Your sense of professionalism extends beyond a narrow view of HR as a chore. I am sure you keep in mind the "Human" in HR.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Rashmi,
Thanks for your post. The corporate HR needs to think about the consultants more as partners and associates who share their burdens of delivering the right corporate image amongst prospective employees. All said and done, they of all the people should not forget the "Human" in the HR.
Good HR Associates
[RashmiBhakuni;769515]
Hi,
It happens because they feel that the ball is in their court. I am also working in a corporate setting and understand the way of treatment. Not only corporate HRs, but even the candidates (whom you call for discussing the opportunity) refuse to listen to you until you say that you are calling from a company and not from a consultancy. I feel anybody who is from a consultant's background can understand the recruitment challenges better than anyone.
Go on, All The Best. :)
Regards,
Rashmi
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post. The corporate HR needs to think about the consultants more as partners and associates who share their burdens of delivering the right corporate image amongst prospective employees. All said and done, they of all the people should not forget the "Human" in the HR.
Good HR Associates
[RashmiBhakuni;769515]
Hi,
It happens because they feel that the ball is in their court. I am also working in a corporate setting and understand the way of treatment. Not only corporate HRs, but even the candidates (whom you call for discussing the opportunity) refuse to listen to you until you say that you are calling from a company and not from a consultancy. I feel anybody who is from a consultant's background can understand the recruitment challenges better than anyone.
Go on, All The Best. :)
Regards,
Rashmi
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Shaunak,
Thanks for your post and your valuable views.
Your First Two points 1 & 2.
Most professions have a career path that goes from the first rung to the top rung. The same can be said about the level and size of the companies an average professional proceeds to join in his career path (Let's leave the Top lot from IIT's / IIM's and other top-of-the-line institutes).
1. The "jump" you are talking about was possible only because the fresher earned his HR stripes at a consultancy. He became worthy enough to be recruited by a corporate with the experience he gained at the consultancy. I have been approached by B.E.'s / B.Tech's and MBA's for a job in our consultancy who wanted to enter the HR field. So I can safely assume that entry into consultancies is easier and gives good work exposure to the fresher, which is worthy of notice from the corporates.
2. The "smart MBA" you are talking about is academically bright, passing out from a good B-School. What about the thousands of others who may not be as bright but have a right to a dignified job too?
I agree the job market is favorable to bright people, but others too have the right to work with dignity.
There may be grace in admitting that others are more talented and hardworking and because of that, they reached where they are. But I find no grace in bearing arrogant and unreasonable behavior of anyone who just happens to be lucky to be in a place of authority. This I'll call exploitation.
- There is no dearth of people who favor the big and powerful. It is easy to do!
- There is no dearth of people who accept and tolerate their arrogance because they have an "upper hand."
- There is no dearth of people who take their humiliation with a "pinch of salt."
It is up to you to decide if you want to be amongst this crowd or stand up and fight unreasonable behavior and a misplaced sense of importance among corporate HR.
My backdrop/background is nothing apart from the sad situation all the good and competent consultants are in because of bad corporate HR and bad recruitment consultants. We are suffering fools, and I don't want to do that gladly.
Your suggestion of going to the top brass of HR is good, but then you risk antagonizing the rank and file and losing the job orders.
Remember, even the top brass is depending on these people to deliver for them and make them look good. They are the ones who may have selected them in the first place! So I see little hope.
In our case, we try ironing out the situation with a professional approach and then dump the client if they don't act professionally.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post and your valuable views.
Your First Two points 1 & 2.
Most professions have a career path that goes from the first rung to the top rung. The same can be said about the level and size of the companies an average professional proceeds to join in his career path (Let's leave the Top lot from IIT's / IIM's and other top-of-the-line institutes).
1. The "jump" you are talking about was possible only because the fresher earned his HR stripes at a consultancy. He became worthy enough to be recruited by a corporate with the experience he gained at the consultancy. I have been approached by B.E.'s / B.Tech's and MBA's for a job in our consultancy who wanted to enter the HR field. So I can safely assume that entry into consultancies is easier and gives good work exposure to the fresher, which is worthy of notice from the corporates.
2. The "smart MBA" you are talking about is academically bright, passing out from a good B-School. What about the thousands of others who may not be as bright but have a right to a dignified job too?
I agree the job market is favorable to bright people, but others too have the right to work with dignity.
There may be grace in admitting that others are more talented and hardworking and because of that, they reached where they are. But I find no grace in bearing arrogant and unreasonable behavior of anyone who just happens to be lucky to be in a place of authority. This I'll call exploitation.
- There is no dearth of people who favor the big and powerful. It is easy to do!
- There is no dearth of people who accept and tolerate their arrogance because they have an "upper hand."
- There is no dearth of people who take their humiliation with a "pinch of salt."
It is up to you to decide if you want to be amongst this crowd or stand up and fight unreasonable behavior and a misplaced sense of importance among corporate HR.
My backdrop/background is nothing apart from the sad situation all the good and competent consultants are in because of bad corporate HR and bad recruitment consultants. We are suffering fools, and I don't want to do that gladly.
Your suggestion of going to the top brass of HR is good, but then you risk antagonizing the rank and file and losing the job orders.
Remember, even the top brass is depending on these people to deliver for them and make them look good. They are the ones who may have selected them in the first place! So I see little hope.
In our case, we try ironing out the situation with a professional approach and then dump the client if they don't act professionally.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Shaunak,
Thanks for your post and your valuable views.
Your First Two points 1 & 2:
Most professions have a career path that goes from the first rung to the top rung. The same can be said about the level and size of the companies an average professional proceeds to join in their career path (Let's leave the top lot from IITs / IIMs and other top-of-the-line institutes).
1. The "jump" you are talking about was possible only because the fresher earned their HR stripes at a consultancy. They became worthy enough to be recruited by a corporate with the experience gained at the consultancy. I have been approached by B.E.'s / B.Tech's and MBA's for a job in our consultancy who wanted to enter the HR field. So I can safely assume that entry into consultancies is easier and gives good work exposure to the fresher, which is worthy of notice from the corporates.
2. The "smart MBA" you are talking about is academically bright, passing out from a good B-School. What about the thousands of others who may not be as bright but have a right to a dignified job too?
I agree the job market is favorable to bright people, but others too have the right to work with dignity.
There may be grace in admitting that others are more talented and hardworking, and because of that, they reached where they are. But I find no grace in bearing arrogant and unreasonable behavior of anyone who just happens to be or is lucky to be in a place of authority. This I'll call exploitation.
- There is no dearth of people who favor the big and powerful. It is easy to do!
- There is no dearth of people who accept and tolerate their arrogance because they have an "upper hand."
- There is no dearth of people who take their humiliation with a "pinch of salt."
It is up to you to decide if you want to be amongst this crowd or stand up and fight unreasonable behavior and a displaced sense of importance amongst corporate HR.
My backdrop/background is nothing apart from the sad situation all the good and competent consultants are in because of bad corporate HR and bad recruitment consultants. We are suffering fools, and I don't want to do that gladly.
Your suggestion of going to the top brass of HR is good, but then you risk antagonizing the rank and file and losing the job orders.
Remember, even the top brass depends on these people to deliver for them and make them look good. They are the ones who may have selected them in the first place! So I see little hope.
In our case, we try ironing out the situation with a professional approach and then dump the client if they don't act professionally.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Thanks for your post and your valuable views.
Your First Two points 1 & 2:
Most professions have a career path that goes from the first rung to the top rung. The same can be said about the level and size of the companies an average professional proceeds to join in their career path (Let's leave the top lot from IITs / IIMs and other top-of-the-line institutes).
1. The "jump" you are talking about was possible only because the fresher earned their HR stripes at a consultancy. They became worthy enough to be recruited by a corporate with the experience gained at the consultancy. I have been approached by B.E.'s / B.Tech's and MBA's for a job in our consultancy who wanted to enter the HR field. So I can safely assume that entry into consultancies is easier and gives good work exposure to the fresher, which is worthy of notice from the corporates.
2. The "smart MBA" you are talking about is academically bright, passing out from a good B-School. What about the thousands of others who may not be as bright but have a right to a dignified job too?
I agree the job market is favorable to bright people, but others too have the right to work with dignity.
There may be grace in admitting that others are more talented and hardworking, and because of that, they reached where they are. But I find no grace in bearing arrogant and unreasonable behavior of anyone who just happens to be or is lucky to be in a place of authority. This I'll call exploitation.
- There is no dearth of people who favor the big and powerful. It is easy to do!
- There is no dearth of people who accept and tolerate their arrogance because they have an "upper hand."
- There is no dearth of people who take their humiliation with a "pinch of salt."
It is up to you to decide if you want to be amongst this crowd or stand up and fight unreasonable behavior and a displaced sense of importance amongst corporate HR.
My backdrop/background is nothing apart from the sad situation all the good and competent consultants are in because of bad corporate HR and bad recruitment consultants. We are suffering fools, and I don't want to do that gladly.
Your suggestion of going to the top brass of HR is good, but then you risk antagonizing the rank and file and losing the job orders.
Remember, even the top brass depends on these people to deliver for them and make them look good. They are the ones who may have selected them in the first place! So I see little hope.
In our case, we try ironing out the situation with a professional approach and then dump the client if they don't act professionally.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Asha,
Thanks for the post.
Most of your points are an excellent insight into how things are at present.
The problem is that some extremely competent & professional Consultants are meted out the same treatment despite proving their professionalism in handling recruitments, promoting Employer branding, etc. We don't bug the client for feedback, have extremely competent & mature Consultants. We follow extremely client-sensitive processes...
What do we do with these HR managers who do not know their job? One of the AGMs of a leading Telecom company once gave us just the designation and expected us to find suitable candidates. On asking about the KRA's, JD, Candidate profile, Reporting structure, and other competencies we should keep in mind, he was clueless. He boasts of 7 yrs in the Telecom HR!!
What do we do with him?
What about bad behavior & discourtesy meted out to even senior candidates at the corporate offices, leave alone junior candidates... Now I guess the onus of spoiling Employer branding is on the corporate HR's & their policies!!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for the post.
Most of your points are an excellent insight into how things are at present.
The problem is that some extremely competent & professional Consultants are meted out the same treatment despite proving their professionalism in handling recruitments, promoting Employer branding, etc. We don't bug the client for feedback, have extremely competent & mature Consultants. We follow extremely client-sensitive processes...
What do we do with these HR managers who do not know their job? One of the AGMs of a leading Telecom company once gave us just the designation and expected us to find suitable candidates. On asking about the KRA's, JD, Candidate profile, Reporting structure, and other competencies we should keep in mind, he was clueless. He boasts of 7 yrs in the Telecom HR!!
What do we do with him?
What about bad behavior & discourtesy meted out to even senior candidates at the corporate offices, leave alone junior candidates... Now I guess the onus of spoiling Employer branding is on the corporate HR's & their policies!!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Tony
Thanks for your post & views.
You are right. It basically boils down to the instinct of feeding the ego. I pity those with a false sense of importance & big Egos as it is a surefire sign of over compensating for a sense of inferiority & worthlessness.
I haven't seen any self assured, person with bloated ego.
Let's pray that god be with them and show them a way to respect themselves despite their shortcomings!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post & views.
You are right. It basically boils down to the instinct of feeding the ego. I pity those with a false sense of importance & big Egos as it is a surefire sign of over compensating for a sense of inferiority & worthlessness.
I haven't seen any self assured, person with bloated ego.
Let's pray that god be with them and show them a way to respect themselves despite their shortcomings!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear VJ,
Thanks for your post and views. What a marvelous and positive attitude you have towards the situation! I salute your positive spirit and learn a lesson from it today. It sure was a heartwarming little post :)
Please keep the same spirit up if and when you join the corporate. Please select your consultants carefully and extend them the professional courtesy they are worthy of.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post and views. What a marvelous and positive attitude you have towards the situation! I salute your positive spirit and learn a lesson from it today. It sure was a heartwarming little post :)
Please keep the same spirit up if and when you join the corporate. Please select your consultants carefully and extend them the professional courtesy they are worthy of.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Ashlesha,
Thank you for your post and views. I realize that there may not be many consultants who are just "Shops." However, the onus of selecting the right consultant after a proper meeting and understanding of the consultant's competencies and professionalism lies with the corporate HR.
Why do corporate HR hire such vendors in the first place? Are they not competent in selecting vendors? I don't think it is such a big and complicated task.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thank you for your post and views. I realize that there may not be many consultants who are just "Shops." However, the onus of selecting the right consultant after a proper meeting and understanding of the consultant's competencies and professionalism lies with the corporate HR.
Why do corporate HR hire such vendors in the first place? Are they not competent in selecting vendors? I don't think it is such a big and complicated task.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Niku,
Thank you for your post and forthright views. I agree with most of what you have said. I just want to raise the issue of Human courtesy which should be extended to the consultants (If not professional courtesy). Good consultants just need a level playing field and ethical treatment. Considering hypothetically that Corporate HR is more evolved, educated, and civilized, basic courtesy is even more expected.
This is what the issue is about - extending basic courtesies to maintain a good working relationship with good consultants. If the consultant is not professional, discontinue their services by all means.
Good HR Associates
"I truly feel that it is just a state of mind, whether you are in corporate or in consultancy. The only thing that matters is your own satisfaction with the job. At the end of the day, I know for sure it's not good to just be a hunter or a farmer; both are required and have significant roles to play. Yes, two important aspects are:
A. On-the-job learning and growth
B. Salary you earn
If these two aspects are addressed year on year, then there is no need to feel bad about anything. All are required in the industry. I know corporate HR professionals who work like dogs and get nothing. Also, I know recruiters who work like donkeys, knowing nothing about the business and the client's requirements on both functional and technical levels (just sourcing, no value addition).
Therefore, only one thing is important - YOU and your surroundings which build your future, irrespective of where you are and what you do."
From India, Chandigarh
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Thank you for your post and forthright views. I agree with most of what you have said. I just want to raise the issue of Human courtesy which should be extended to the consultants (If not professional courtesy). Good consultants just need a level playing field and ethical treatment. Considering hypothetically that Corporate HR is more evolved, educated, and civilized, basic courtesy is even more expected.
This is what the issue is about - extending basic courtesies to maintain a good working relationship with good consultants. If the consultant is not professional, discontinue their services by all means.
Good HR Associates
"I truly feel that it is just a state of mind, whether you are in corporate or in consultancy. The only thing that matters is your own satisfaction with the job. At the end of the day, I know for sure it's not good to just be a hunter or a farmer; both are required and have significant roles to play. Yes, two important aspects are:
A. On-the-job learning and growth
B. Salary you earn
If these two aspects are addressed year on year, then there is no need to feel bad about anything. All are required in the industry. I know corporate HR professionals who work like dogs and get nothing. Also, I know recruiters who work like donkeys, knowing nothing about the business and the client's requirements on both functional and technical levels (just sourcing, no value addition).
Therefore, only one thing is important - YOU and your surroundings which build your future, irrespective of where you are and what you do."
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Gunjan,
Thanks for your post. Your views are extremely balanced and objective. Kudos to your mature thinking, empathy, and understanding of all points of views. All I can say here is we need more people like you in the corporate HR. Please do keep influencing others with your attitude and thoughts!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post. Your views are extremely balanced and objective. Kudos to your mature thinking, empathy, and understanding of all points of views. All I can say here is we need more people like you in the corporate HR. Please do keep influencing others with your attitude and thoughts!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Amish,
Thank you for your post and views. I would like to reiterate that corporate HR needs to select its vendors with care. It has been observed that corporate HR departments have not been able to find candidates using Naukri. Many times, we have successfully filled positions with candidates from Naukri/Monster that the client had already searched for.
Expectations:
Often, corporate HR professionals are unclear about the position, job description, or candidate profile, leading to frequent changes in the JD. It is possible that you have not yet encountered a consultant who excels in all aspects of recruiting. The key requirement is mutual respect, learning from each other, courtesy, and a tolerance for human errors and shortcomings.
Good HR associates.
Hi All,
I have read all the comments, and it is interesting to see the use of complex language. Perhaps we can call it over-sophistication. The issue at hand is the lack of respect for recruiters. While this may not be entirely true, good recruiters may have different perspectives. The main concern is whether recruitment consultants are fulfilling their job responsibilities as expected.
For instance, if corporate HR has one position to fill, and the consultant sends 15-20 resumes in multiple emails, mostly sourced from Naukri or Monster, it raises questions about the quality versus quantity of work. If corporate HR can access resumes from platforms like Naukri, why would they need consultants who only add to their workload with unnecessary follow-ups?
Ultimately, such actions lead to ignorance and a decline in respect. Asha Mathew has aptly expressed her views, which I agree with.
AIM
From India, Chandigarh
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Thank you for your post and views. I would like to reiterate that corporate HR needs to select its vendors with care. It has been observed that corporate HR departments have not been able to find candidates using Naukri. Many times, we have successfully filled positions with candidates from Naukri/Monster that the client had already searched for.
Expectations:
Often, corporate HR professionals are unclear about the position, job description, or candidate profile, leading to frequent changes in the JD. It is possible that you have not yet encountered a consultant who excels in all aspects of recruiting. The key requirement is mutual respect, learning from each other, courtesy, and a tolerance for human errors and shortcomings.
Good HR associates.
Hi All,
I have read all the comments, and it is interesting to see the use of complex language. Perhaps we can call it over-sophistication. The issue at hand is the lack of respect for recruiters. While this may not be entirely true, good recruiters may have different perspectives. The main concern is whether recruitment consultants are fulfilling their job responsibilities as expected.
For instance, if corporate HR has one position to fill, and the consultant sends 15-20 resumes in multiple emails, mostly sourced from Naukri or Monster, it raises questions about the quality versus quantity of work. If corporate HR can access resumes from platforms like Naukri, why would they need consultants who only add to their workload with unnecessary follow-ups?
Ultimately, such actions lead to ignorance and a decline in respect. Asha Mathew has aptly expressed her views, which I agree with.
AIM
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Friend,
It was refreshing to see you comparing the whole thing with formats of cricket! The question here is not about who works harder or more, but of respect for each other's efforts, professional competence, ethical behavior, and working as a team, learning and growing together as professionals in the business of HR. Discourtesy to consultants is a pain point for them. Please show human courtesy at least if you can't show professional courtesy due to a perceived incompetence on the part of the consultant. Keep in mind the "Human" in HR!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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It was refreshing to see you comparing the whole thing with formats of cricket! The question here is not about who works harder or more, but of respect for each other's efforts, professional competence, ethical behavior, and working as a team, learning and growing together as professionals in the business of HR. Discourtesy to consultants is a pain point for them. Please show human courtesy at least if you can't show professional courtesy due to a perceived incompetence on the part of the consultant. Keep in mind the "Human" in HR!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Vinod,
Is there anything unethical about trying a business? Are they stealing from anyone? Are they cheating? Everyone has a right and freedom to choose a business, profession, and vocation. If they are not competent, they will have to close down sooner than later. Your job is only to spot such consultants and avoid them. Select the good ones to work for you (if you are good at vendor selection, that is...), but you can't ridicule anyone's efforts and enterprise.
A long time back, one such "yera gaira" used to sell cut pieces on his bicycle carrier and tried to start a textile business. This "yera gaira" was Shri Dhirubhai Ambani.
Good HR Associates
"The reason behind this is today koi bhi yera gaira is starting a recruitment consultancy. I have seen in Pune there are more than 50 recruitment consultants who do not have any competency in HR. They worked somewhere in a lala company and left the job as they did not get anything and started consultancy (?). It is very easy, just purchased a computer or laptop and get the monthly subscription of Naukri or Monster and download the CVs. How do they expect dignity (!)?"
[QUOTE=vinodbidwaik;771989]
From India, Chandigarh
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Is there anything unethical about trying a business? Are they stealing from anyone? Are they cheating? Everyone has a right and freedom to choose a business, profession, and vocation. If they are not competent, they will have to close down sooner than later. Your job is only to spot such consultants and avoid them. Select the good ones to work for you (if you are good at vendor selection, that is...), but you can't ridicule anyone's efforts and enterprise.
A long time back, one such "yera gaira" used to sell cut pieces on his bicycle carrier and tried to start a textile business. This "yera gaira" was Shri Dhirubhai Ambani.
Good HR Associates
"The reason behind this is today koi bhi yera gaira is starting a recruitment consultancy. I have seen in Pune there are more than 50 recruitment consultants who do not have any competency in HR. They worked somewhere in a lala company and left the job as they did not get anything and started consultancy (?). It is very easy, just purchased a computer or laptop and get the monthly subscription of Naukri or Monster and download the CVs. How do they expect dignity (!)?"
[QUOTE=vinodbidwaik;771989]
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Creation,
Thank you for your post. Until Corporate HR starts treating consultants with respect, this debate will continue. The advice to Corporate HR is to please root out incompetent consultants. Give a level playing field to good/professional consultants, be ethical (don't cheat them or take advantage of their services), and you will see this debate dying out forever.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thank you for your post. Until Corporate HR starts treating consultants with respect, this debate will continue. The advice to Corporate HR is to please root out incompetent consultants. Give a level playing field to good/professional consultants, be ethical (don't cheat them or take advantage of their services), and you will see this debate dying out forever.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Hello, I am just addressing what I have highlighted in red.
We hire consultants to do the tasks that we are not able to do, not to do what we are already doing. So, your point is a lame excuse. And BTW, had the corporate HR known how to describe the KRAs and neatly get the specifics done, they would not turn to consultants. Know the industry, know the profile - core requirements, and design a set of KRAs to create a niche for yourself saying, "Hey look, this is our way of screening, and we reduce the time you spend on recruiting... so HIRE us for more assignments." That's the message you need to send.
Please don't think that a consultant's job is just to get the JD, KRAs, and then go and hunt for profiles. If it were so, I could always hire freelancers to get this done! Think about what you can do - not what others can do to make you perform.
From India, Madras
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We hire consultants to do the tasks that we are not able to do, not to do what we are already doing. So, your point is a lame excuse. And BTW, had the corporate HR known how to describe the KRAs and neatly get the specifics done, they would not turn to consultants. Know the industry, know the profile - core requirements, and design a set of KRAs to create a niche for yourself saying, "Hey look, this is our way of screening, and we reduce the time you spend on recruiting... so HIRE us for more assignments." That's the message you need to send.
Please don't think that a consultant's job is just to get the JD, KRAs, and then go and hunt for profiles. If it were so, I could always hire freelancers to get this done! Think about what you can do - not what others can do to make you perform.
From India, Madras
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And this Dhirubhai Ambani did not complain that others were not treating him the way he wanted to be treated. He did his part - and the world watched him!
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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Dear Fellow Recruiters,
With around 3 years in the Recruitment industry as a consultant, I have always had a strong feeling that the Corporate HR somehow look down upon the consultants.
They look at consultants as low brows, mindless, and unintelligent creatures whom they can play around with and take advantage of.
Some of them have a hard time hiding how much they despise the consultants!!
Any ideas as to why they so much dislike the Consultants?
Perhaps some from the corporate can look inside and come out with some truthful answers... please!
I wonder how many of the corporate HR professionals keep in mind the "Human" factor while dealing with consultants and respect the dignity of labor.
Perhaps it is time we have HR professionals taking a Hippocratic oath a'la Doctors... Any opinions?
Good HR Associates
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Dear Consultant,
I am sorry that it is going to be a little straightforward, but somehow, I don't have the same opinion. I don't want to be biased at all in my judgment as I myself have worked as a consultant and currently work as corporate HR. I do agree that HR is sometimes rude, but let all of us accept that there are numerous consultants who hire inefficient staff, and even without understanding the job profile, call any candidate and send them for an interview, which finally is a point of irritation and a waste of time for both the HR and the candidate. Moreover, whenever HR shares any opening with them, they keep calling them for one reason or another. They don't think that HR has lots of other works to do, not only recruitment, which may be more critical and urgent in nature.
I am personally experiencing such a situation where one of my consultants has at least 8 staff in their office, and they share all the openings with all the staff. Therefore, HR has to reply to all of them separately, and in case of any query, they don't have any single contact person. Even if you tell one person to communicate the same to the rest of their team, each of them calls up, asks personally, and seeks confirmation.
Other than the above, I can mention many other reasons that make HR think so.
Correct me if you guys think otherwise.
Regards,
Shikha Jain
From India, Bangalore
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With around 3 years in the Recruitment industry as a consultant, I have always had a strong feeling that the Corporate HR somehow look down upon the consultants.
They look at consultants as low brows, mindless, and unintelligent creatures whom they can play around with and take advantage of.
Some of them have a hard time hiding how much they despise the consultants!!
Any ideas as to why they so much dislike the Consultants?
Perhaps some from the corporate can look inside and come out with some truthful answers... please!
I wonder how many of the corporate HR professionals keep in mind the "Human" factor while dealing with consultants and respect the dignity of labor.
Perhaps it is time we have HR professionals taking a Hippocratic oath a'la Doctors... Any opinions?
Good HR Associates
---
Dear Consultant,
I am sorry that it is going to be a little straightforward, but somehow, I don't have the same opinion. I don't want to be biased at all in my judgment as I myself have worked as a consultant and currently work as corporate HR. I do agree that HR is sometimes rude, but let all of us accept that there are numerous consultants who hire inefficient staff, and even without understanding the job profile, call any candidate and send them for an interview, which finally is a point of irritation and a waste of time for both the HR and the candidate. Moreover, whenever HR shares any opening with them, they keep calling them for one reason or another. They don't think that HR has lots of other works to do, not only recruitment, which may be more critical and urgent in nature.
I am personally experiencing such a situation where one of my consultants has at least 8 staff in their office, and they share all the openings with all the staff. Therefore, HR has to reply to all of them separately, and in case of any query, they don't have any single contact person. Even if you tell one person to communicate the same to the rest of their team, each of them calls up, asks personally, and seeks confirmation.
Other than the above, I can mention many other reasons that make HR think so.
Correct me if you guys think otherwise.
Regards,
Shikha Jain
From India, Bangalore
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Hi Asha,
Thanks for your points. I agree with some of them.
What you said - That may be true in some cases, but a lot of time I have seen clients draw a blank when we inquire about the image they have planned to project amongst prospective applicants. Their USP to attract the top talent, etc. (and we are talking about senior management here and not front line salespeople). When they draw a NIL on this, we create a plan for their campaign and send it to them. Needless to say, they are overjoyed with our research and homework, but soon they fall back to their old ways and old games. Many times I have seen the HR managers take the credit for the employer branding which we wrote and planned for them. What do you say to that?
Again, I would refer to your point marked in red. It is the company which sets the KRA's and the JD of the position. The client is running the company and the operations; they know and should know what exactly they need. They know their future plans, restructuring taking place, new markets, and unique skill sets they need to execute the tasks.
What you are saying is like telling a shopkeeper when you visit a shop, "Please decide what I need"!! You are the shopkeeper; you should know what I need in my house!
We have many times offered to visit and meet the technical/line/functional managers to get a clear picture of the job and create the candidate profile. But the HR managers have always discouraged us... I wonder why?
We have many times taught the corporate difference between various technologies and what exactly they need. They verified from the technical people and we were proved right. Then what role is the corporate HR playing if they don't know what their organization needs, leave alone the industry! What are they... glorified post boxes?
I know some good HR people who really know their job, and we have immense respect for them. But we can't respect you just because you are a client/HR manager if you don't know your job.
A whole lot of management jargon will not serve the purpose.
I have already mentioned that please root out incompetent consultants. In the same way, good corporate HR must condemn bad corporate HR. Simple!
Again, I have a feeling that you have already decided that we don't know much about the companies we work for and the industries. Let me tell you you'll be surprised how much I would be able to tell you about your own company and its future plans if we take you up as a client! But then you'll tell me, "Oh, but you are supposed to know all that"... but the HR manager/executives have the privilege of being ignorant about their own job??
I guess with 18 years of experience in the corporate world with premier companies at senior positions in HR and admin roles, I still need help from HR executives to perform.
Asha, I'll think about it!!
Good HR Associates
Ash Mathew; 773736: Hello,
I am just addressing to the one I have highlighted in red.
We hire consultants to do the tasks that we are not able to do. Not to do what we are doing.
So - your point is a lame excuse.
And BTW - had the corporate HR known to describe the KRAs and neatly get the specifics done - mind you, they will not turn to consultants. Know the industry, know the profile - core requirement, and you need to design a set of KRAs and create a niche for yourself saying "Hey look, this is our way of screening and we reduce the time you spend on recruiting... so HIRE us for more assignments."
That's the message you need to send.
Please don't think that a consultant's job is to just get the JD, KRAs, and then go and hunt for profiles. If it were such, I could always hire freelancers and get this done!
Think of what you can do - not what others can do to make you perform.
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your points. I agree with some of them.
What you said - That may be true in some cases, but a lot of time I have seen clients draw a blank when we inquire about the image they have planned to project amongst prospective applicants. Their USP to attract the top talent, etc. (and we are talking about senior management here and not front line salespeople). When they draw a NIL on this, we create a plan for their campaign and send it to them. Needless to say, they are overjoyed with our research and homework, but soon they fall back to their old ways and old games. Many times I have seen the HR managers take the credit for the employer branding which we wrote and planned for them. What do you say to that?
Again, I would refer to your point marked in red. It is the company which sets the KRA's and the JD of the position. The client is running the company and the operations; they know and should know what exactly they need. They know their future plans, restructuring taking place, new markets, and unique skill sets they need to execute the tasks.
What you are saying is like telling a shopkeeper when you visit a shop, "Please decide what I need"!! You are the shopkeeper; you should know what I need in my house!
We have many times offered to visit and meet the technical/line/functional managers to get a clear picture of the job and create the candidate profile. But the HR managers have always discouraged us... I wonder why?
We have many times taught the corporate difference between various technologies and what exactly they need. They verified from the technical people and we were proved right. Then what role is the corporate HR playing if they don't know what their organization needs, leave alone the industry! What are they... glorified post boxes?
I know some good HR people who really know their job, and we have immense respect for them. But we can't respect you just because you are a client/HR manager if you don't know your job.
A whole lot of management jargon will not serve the purpose.
I have already mentioned that please root out incompetent consultants. In the same way, good corporate HR must condemn bad corporate HR. Simple!
Again, I have a feeling that you have already decided that we don't know much about the companies we work for and the industries. Let me tell you you'll be surprised how much I would be able to tell you about your own company and its future plans if we take you up as a client! But then you'll tell me, "Oh, but you are supposed to know all that"... but the HR manager/executives have the privilege of being ignorant about their own job??
I guess with 18 years of experience in the corporate world with premier companies at senior positions in HR and admin roles, I still need help from HR executives to perform.
Asha, I'll think about it!!
Good HR Associates
Ash Mathew; 773736: Hello,
I am just addressing to the one I have highlighted in red.
We hire consultants to do the tasks that we are not able to do. Not to do what we are doing.
So - your point is a lame excuse.
And BTW - had the corporate HR known to describe the KRAs and neatly get the specifics done - mind you, they will not turn to consultants. Know the industry, know the profile - core requirement, and you need to design a set of KRAs and create a niche for yourself saying "Hey look, this is our way of screening and we reduce the time you spend on recruiting... so HIRE us for more assignments."
That's the message you need to send.
Please don't think that a consultant's job is to just get the JD, KRAs, and then go and hunt for profiles. If it were such, I could always hire freelancers and get this done!
Think of what you can do - not what others can do to make you perform.
From India, Chandigarh
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I understand that the "complaints" prick your conscience. They make you uncomfortable and hot under your collar. You become red-faced facing the truth and somehow you want everyone to just please shut up and let things carry on as they are happening.
And the HR advocates about L&D, continual improvement, and teaches ethics in their organizations... strange!! Yes, He never complained, but he did stuff their pockets with money to shut them up. Then... nobody complained!! We can do that too and everyone will be happy. Especially the corporate HR. Now please don't say in this forum that HR Managers don't take commission to close positions; people will laugh.
Good Corporate HR
From India, Chandigarh
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And the HR advocates about L&D, continual improvement, and teaches ethics in their organizations... strange!! Yes, He never complained, but he did stuff their pockets with money to shut them up. Then... nobody complained!! We can do that too and everyone will be happy. Especially the corporate HR. Now please don't say in this forum that HR Managers don't take commission to close positions; people will laugh.
Good Corporate HR
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Shikha,
If you have read all my replies, you will note that I am strongly advocating AGAINST taking incompetent consultants on board. Please don't work with them. Please evaluate the consultant before hiring him.
Did you talk to the consultant about his internal processes and various nitty-gritties before hiring him? If no... Why? Whose job is that?
On the other hand, if the consultant is keen to improve and learn, you just need to give him some feedback about your way of working, and if he is competent, he will adopt his process accordingly. That is where empathy, understanding the "Human" in HR comes into play.
I have met HR Managers in big companies who have not been able to ask me the right questions and evaluate me & the consultancy.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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If you have read all my replies, you will note that I am strongly advocating AGAINST taking incompetent consultants on board. Please don't work with them. Please evaluate the consultant before hiring him.
Did you talk to the consultant about his internal processes and various nitty-gritties before hiring him? If no... Why? Whose job is that?
On the other hand, if the consultant is keen to improve and learn, you just need to give him some feedback about your way of working, and if he is competent, he will adopt his process accordingly. That is where empathy, understanding the "Human" in HR comes into play.
I have met HR Managers in big companies who have not been able to ask me the right questions and evaluate me & the consultancy.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Another thought.
Dhirubhai was doing business for his own good, and he did it his way. I am concerned about the entire consultant fraternity. Their humiliation at the hands of arrogant Corporate HR Managers is saddening and frustrating.
What I am trying to do is raise a voice against those Corporate HR professionals who are insensitive, arrogant, exploitative, and corrupt.
You have raised a voice against female insecurity. Though I am male, I support it wholeheartedly. I appreciate that this is your major concern. I appreciate your guts and endeavor. I understand you and empathize with you.
All I am saying is please extend common courtesy to at least the Good Consultants, please don't exploit them, please don't use them, give where credit is due, help them make an honest living.
We are damn good consultants, clean, efficient, ethical, professional, clients praise us but still exploit us and humiliate us when they feel like it.
This is not done. This needs to change. This WILL change.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dhirubhai was doing business for his own good, and he did it his way. I am concerned about the entire consultant fraternity. Their humiliation at the hands of arrogant Corporate HR Managers is saddening and frustrating.
What I am trying to do is raise a voice against those Corporate HR professionals who are insensitive, arrogant, exploitative, and corrupt.
You have raised a voice against female insecurity. Though I am male, I support it wholeheartedly. I appreciate that this is your major concern. I appreciate your guts and endeavor. I understand you and empathize with you.
All I am saying is please extend common courtesy to at least the Good Consultants, please don't exploit them, please don't use them, give where credit is due, help them make an honest living.
We are damn good consultants, clean, efficient, ethical, professional, clients praise us but still exploit us and humiliate us when they feel like it.
This is not done. This needs to change. This WILL change.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Good HR Associates,
Pray, GO ON. It's a good start. Please keep the movement going. By the way, I belong to Corporate HR, but I agree with you. I would rather use the term Organizational HR (as opposed to Consultancy HR). Let me assure you that this treatment is not reserved for just your kind. In real life, HR is mostly inhuman. They treat prospective employees, current employees, and past employees the same way. Let's not even start on how they treat outsiders like you.
They are particularly harsh on you people because they think:
- You earn easy money (a month's salary for practically doing nothing, except making a few calls) :-x
- You hire just "fresh graduates" and run a "sweatshop" :-x
- How can they interact at the same level with "low-qualified" people from your agency? :icon7:
- They "pay" you! So aren't they SUPERIOR? :icon7:
- They are the CUSTOMERS. Shouldn't they be treated like KINGS? :(
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Pray, GO ON. It's a good start. Please keep the movement going. By the way, I belong to Corporate HR, but I agree with you. I would rather use the term Organizational HR (as opposed to Consultancy HR). Let me assure you that this treatment is not reserved for just your kind. In real life, HR is mostly inhuman. They treat prospective employees, current employees, and past employees the same way. Let's not even start on how they treat outsiders like you.
They are particularly harsh on you people because they think:
- You earn easy money (a month's salary for practically doing nothing, except making a few calls) :-x
- You hire just "fresh graduates" and run a "sweatshop" :-x
- How can they interact at the same level with "low-qualified" people from your agency? :icon7:
- They "pay" you! So aren't they SUPERIOR? :icon7:
- They are the CUSTOMERS. Shouldn't they be treated like KINGS? :(
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Oops... so many emotions!!
Anyways moving back to what you put as shopkeeper (let's take garments) - there is a difference between an ordinary garment shop salesperson and a designer wear collection gallery. Do you get what I'm trying to say? A designer collection may already have pieces that suit an individual's taste. Otherwise, sometimes the consultant there tries to explain and guide the customer on what exactly suits them, and sometimes they opt for custom-made clothing.
Now, there is no point in you screaming over here. Just as you request to remove consultants who don't work professionally, I ask you to remove clients who don't have proper work ethics.
Look, Sir/Madam! You can't blame someone else if you are not getting the business the way you prefer it to be. YOU need to change the mindset of the corporate people, not just by complaining but by proving through your work.
I don't know if people would laugh here if I say that I DON'T KNOW that HR people take commissions. It's bad if you have known it. Probably you have been doing it.
I love the history of Ambani - not because I learned that you need to stuff money in someone's pocket, but because I learned that "If you love something, love it in a way that you get it the way you want. But in that process, never shout about your weaknesses or complain about anyone. Do it in a style that no one ever knew you went through such difficult phases."
If this is how the consulting business is, you should try to create a niche for yourself. Not fall into the category of all those who complain about their clients. ;-)
It's not just HR processes... in ANY industry, such things happen.
Suppliers, vendors, consultants (in any field) are treated based on the way they interact. We have 200 suppliers giving us competitive proposals, but we choose the one with a good working history and quality work delivery.
I have nothing to do with being angry and surprised over the truth. Should that matter to me? But you seem to be defending yourself and thanking everyone who empathizes with you.
What makes you different from other consultants? Don't tell by yourself, make your clients talk about you to others....
From India, Madras
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Anyways moving back to what you put as shopkeeper (let's take garments) - there is a difference between an ordinary garment shop salesperson and a designer wear collection gallery. Do you get what I'm trying to say? A designer collection may already have pieces that suit an individual's taste. Otherwise, sometimes the consultant there tries to explain and guide the customer on what exactly suits them, and sometimes they opt for custom-made clothing.
Now, there is no point in you screaming over here. Just as you request to remove consultants who don't work professionally, I ask you to remove clients who don't have proper work ethics.
Look, Sir/Madam! You can't blame someone else if you are not getting the business the way you prefer it to be. YOU need to change the mindset of the corporate people, not just by complaining but by proving through your work.
I don't know if people would laugh here if I say that I DON'T KNOW that HR people take commissions. It's bad if you have known it. Probably you have been doing it.
I love the history of Ambani - not because I learned that you need to stuff money in someone's pocket, but because I learned that "If you love something, love it in a way that you get it the way you want. But in that process, never shout about your weaknesses or complain about anyone. Do it in a style that no one ever knew you went through such difficult phases."
If this is how the consulting business is, you should try to create a niche for yourself. Not fall into the category of all those who complain about their clients. ;-)
It's not just HR processes... in ANY industry, such things happen.
Suppliers, vendors, consultants (in any field) are treated based on the way they interact. We have 200 suppliers giving us competitive proposals, but we choose the one with a good working history and quality work delivery.
I have nothing to do with being angry and surprised over the truth. Should that matter to me? But you seem to be defending yourself and thanking everyone who empathizes with you.
What makes you different from other consultants? Don't tell by yourself, make your clients talk about you to others....
From India, Madras
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Dear Asha,
There are some universal truths: rights and wrongs, ethical practices and unethical practices, decency and indecency, corrupt and uncorrupt. Nobody can have an "opinion" on these things. You can only take the side of someone you identify with.
Ya, as you said, don't complain about anything, don't protest about exploitation, don't complain about slavery (we would still have been slaves if we thought the way you do!!)...great.
THEN PLEASE...
...don't complain about Female Insecurity!!
...don't raise your voice!!
I am presuming from your views that you may not have much experience (1 - 2 years?) and that too in 1 -2 companies in the hiring process or a bit more... and you need to see a lot more happening before you can really understand what's going on.
Let's finish the discussion here.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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There are some universal truths: rights and wrongs, ethical practices and unethical practices, decency and indecency, corrupt and uncorrupt. Nobody can have an "opinion" on these things. You can only take the side of someone you identify with.
Ya, as you said, don't complain about anything, don't protest about exploitation, don't complain about slavery (we would still have been slaves if we thought the way you do!!)...great.
THEN PLEASE...
...don't complain about Female Insecurity!!
...don't raise your voice!!
I am presuming from your views that you may not have much experience (1 - 2 years?) and that too in 1 -2 companies in the hiring process or a bit more... and you need to see a lot more happening before you can really understand what's going on.
Let's finish the discussion here.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Good HR Associates,
Hahaha... the conversation is supposed to go on until the corporate HR changes their behavior. (Don't bother to presume... FYI - I have experience with 5 companies, and that's in 5 different countries.)
Dear Asha,
It's better to leave this person and the conversation. May God bless him to understand the in-depth purpose and meaning of the views you shared.
Regards,
AIM
From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
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Hahaha... the conversation is supposed to go on until the corporate HR changes their behavior. (Don't bother to presume... FYI - I have experience with 5 companies, and that's in 5 different countries.)
Dear Asha,
It's better to leave this person and the conversation. May God bless him to understand the in-depth purpose and meaning of the views you shared.
Regards,
AIM
From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
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Yes - don't complain, act like a boss!
Please don't compare female insecurity to the way corporates treat staffing consultants. Lame excuse. 🤷‍♂️
When did I say that one should not protest against slavery? Don't make up stories, especially when you are hyper-emotional. 🤪
I seriously feel that you feel underestimated. You are waiting for someone to give you a chance. Again, I am not blaming you; I am asking you to change the strategy - Instead of saying "Hey, why are you treating consultants like this..." change it to "Hey yes - we are not like other consultants..." 😎
Simple... change the way people look at you, not at the whole consultant list! 🌀
My consultants (in fact, previous coworkers), are so special to me, and we just have the perfect relationship. There exist such consultants too! Always in our good books. ETA, is one of them.
Two other consultants too... well, more than the name of the company, I remember their names - that is the relation we have! They make work really interesting for us too, and "no craps and complaints," very professional and direct.
Hmm about my experience - you are VERY correct. 2 years of experience.
One year as a consultant with a leading ISO certified company (you see - we had always differentiated ourselves from other consultants and had created a niche for ourselves)... I still receive a good nod when I tell people I worked there. So - I am talking to you as a lady who has experience in both - as a consultant and an ordinary corporate recruiter (very simple, very low level).
But all that matters is not years - it's the usage of the head and learning to act accordingly. Yes, many of us fall in between, but we can ask for a helping hand... not blame the mud!
Even now I am saying, think differently. Position yourself differently, no one will put you in the group of consultants who are doing a bad job... good luck!
It is so obvious with your words of comparison to VAFI how "grown" you are with the number of years you have!
God knows if you had the nerve to check what VAFI is about...
From India, Madras
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Please don't compare female insecurity to the way corporates treat staffing consultants. Lame excuse. 🤷‍♂️
When did I say that one should not protest against slavery? Don't make up stories, especially when you are hyper-emotional. 🤪
I seriously feel that you feel underestimated. You are waiting for someone to give you a chance. Again, I am not blaming you; I am asking you to change the strategy - Instead of saying "Hey, why are you treating consultants like this..." change it to "Hey yes - we are not like other consultants..." 😎
Simple... change the way people look at you, not at the whole consultant list! 🌀
My consultants (in fact, previous coworkers), are so special to me, and we just have the perfect relationship. There exist such consultants too! Always in our good books. ETA, is one of them.
Two other consultants too... well, more than the name of the company, I remember their names - that is the relation we have! They make work really interesting for us too, and "no craps and complaints," very professional and direct.
Hmm about my experience - you are VERY correct. 2 years of experience.
One year as a consultant with a leading ISO certified company (you see - we had always differentiated ourselves from other consultants and had created a niche for ourselves)... I still receive a good nod when I tell people I worked there. So - I am talking to you as a lady who has experience in both - as a consultant and an ordinary corporate recruiter (very simple, very low level).
But all that matters is not years - it's the usage of the head and learning to act accordingly. Yes, many of us fall in between, but we can ask for a helping hand... not blame the mud!
Even now I am saying, think differently. Position yourself differently, no one will put you in the group of consultants who are doing a bad job... good luck!
It is so obvious with your words of comparison to VAFI how "grown" you are with the number of years you have!
God knows if you had the nerve to check what VAFI is about...
From India, Madras
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Hi Your communication made it evident that you had experience in Bangladesh, Uganda, Bhutan, Ethiopia & Libiya! For your next posting in Honolulu...Best of Luck!:icon6: Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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From India, Chandigarh
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Dear all,
This is getting very interesting and enlightening (not to mention a bit personal). To be honest, there is a lot of learning involved here. For the first time, the consultant vs. corporate HR relationship is being explored here thoroughly, with no holds barred.
Please continue.
As of today, perhaps this is the most novel, new, and different topic under discussion in this forum. Real learning is taking place.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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This is getting very interesting and enlightening (not to mention a bit personal). To be honest, there is a lot of learning involved here. For the first time, the consultant vs. corporate HR relationship is being explored here thoroughly, with no holds barred.
Please continue.
As of today, perhaps this is the most novel, new, and different topic under discussion in this forum. Real learning is taking place.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Mr. Raj,
If you notice one thing that is very obvious - Good HR associates are trying to highlight about the corporate HR people being bad. He/she thanks people who empathize/sympathize with him/her. Finally, the way he/she had responded to Amish Bhatt itself says, "why on earth would any corporate client want to work with such a consultant?" Definitely, this GHA would be out of my list of screening for good consultants!
From India, Madras
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If you notice one thing that is very obvious - Good HR associates are trying to highlight about the corporate HR people being bad. He/she thanks people who empathize/sympathize with him/her. Finally, the way he/she had responded to Amish Bhatt itself says, "why on earth would any corporate client want to work with such a consultant?" Definitely, this GHA would be out of my list of screening for good consultants!
From India, Madras
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Some great conversations, will always emanate form eminent persons, this is such a nice example. always it has been a raising end with knowledge. i cant stop myself from appreciating. kb
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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Dear Asha,
This is what I have been trying to bring out - the arrogance of being a client!
I fail to understand why clients have to be arrogant, why they have to have an upper hand. Why does a junior HR executive at the corporate level think that they know more than a consultant with over 15 years of experience in the industry and perhaps considerable experience in corporate HR?
Obviously, he is paying the price of being a "Bloody consultant."
Where is the professional courtesy to seniors in the HR industry? Is this what is being taught at B-Schools? We need to rethink the corporate culture. HR plays a key role in creating that. I am afraid the corporate HR itself is in need of an overhaul.
Why can they not consider consultants as associates?
Is it the inherent human psychology and the inborn desire to attain power over others? Traces of the "survival of the fittest" syndrome?
The food chain - the strong devour the weak! (But that happens in the jungle!)
Or by putting down or rejecting, lording over vendors, do they give in to a natural instinct of boosting their self-esteem indirectly? I am sure many corporate HR professionals will not be able to hold a two-minute conversation with an experienced consultant.
And why is it mostly junior HR executives who have to engage in verbal battles with consultants on behalf of the entire senior lot of corporate HR? Do they think they are experienced enough to speak on such issues of which they have limited knowledge and exposure?
Again, the arrogance of being a client :(. Or do I assume that these youngsters indeed reflect the corporate thinking about consultants?
Does it have something to do with the lowly stature of the HR department in their own organizations, that they seek solace through lording over consultants?
Where are the senior professionals? I guess most of them must have read my views and understood that it is not about the "Corporate HR being bad" but about the "Bad Corporate HR."
I wish someone could explain this to these youngsters who are acting way out of their league!
It is not "Corporate HR vs. Consultants" but rather "Good Consultants vs. Bad Corporate HR."
Well, now if you do identify with the Bad Corporate HR, please do keep your verbal duel on. You are only exposing your limited knowledge and poor understanding of the issues more and more.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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This is what I have been trying to bring out - the arrogance of being a client!
I fail to understand why clients have to be arrogant, why they have to have an upper hand. Why does a junior HR executive at the corporate level think that they know more than a consultant with over 15 years of experience in the industry and perhaps considerable experience in corporate HR?
Obviously, he is paying the price of being a "Bloody consultant."
Where is the professional courtesy to seniors in the HR industry? Is this what is being taught at B-Schools? We need to rethink the corporate culture. HR plays a key role in creating that. I am afraid the corporate HR itself is in need of an overhaul.
Why can they not consider consultants as associates?
Is it the inherent human psychology and the inborn desire to attain power over others? Traces of the "survival of the fittest" syndrome?
The food chain - the strong devour the weak! (But that happens in the jungle!)
Or by putting down or rejecting, lording over vendors, do they give in to a natural instinct of boosting their self-esteem indirectly? I am sure many corporate HR professionals will not be able to hold a two-minute conversation with an experienced consultant.
And why is it mostly junior HR executives who have to engage in verbal battles with consultants on behalf of the entire senior lot of corporate HR? Do they think they are experienced enough to speak on such issues of which they have limited knowledge and exposure?
Again, the arrogance of being a client :(. Or do I assume that these youngsters indeed reflect the corporate thinking about consultants?
Does it have something to do with the lowly stature of the HR department in their own organizations, that they seek solace through lording over consultants?
Where are the senior professionals? I guess most of them must have read my views and understood that it is not about the "Corporate HR being bad" but about the "Bad Corporate HR."
I wish someone could explain this to these youngsters who are acting way out of their league!
It is not "Corporate HR vs. Consultants" but rather "Good Consultants vs. Bad Corporate HR."
Well, now if you do identify with the Bad Corporate HR, please do keep your verbal duel on. You are only exposing your limited knowledge and poor understanding of the issues more and more.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Dear Raj,
I understand you are a senior HR professional and your true views about the attention the "Bad corporate" needs would be interesting! It is the "Good Corporate HR" which needs to intervene and take charge. A handful of "Bad Corporate HR" have already eroded the prestige of an HR professional. They are losing respect in the corporate world. You need to think and contribute - What can the "Good Corporate" do to improve its image within the organization and with the consultants?
Good Corporate HR
From India, Chandigarh
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I understand you are a senior HR professional and your true views about the attention the "Bad corporate" needs would be interesting! It is the "Good Corporate HR" which needs to intervene and take charge. A handful of "Bad Corporate HR" have already eroded the prestige of an HR professional. They are losing respect in the corporate world. You need to think and contribute - What can the "Good Corporate" do to improve its image within the organization and with the consultants?
Good Corporate HR
From India, Chandigarh
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I seriously pity you. You seem to be deviating from the topic. May I ask your name? Because it's a shame if you are not able to tell who you are. Give your identity, man or lady!
Scared that no one will ever consider you because of the way you have been obviously helpless on this forum, and only crying? (It's not necessary to have white hair to prove one is wiser than the other ;-) )
Re-consider the situation, stop expecting people to be good to you. There is a difference between demanding respect and making people feel that they should respect. It is all in the way you carry your business.
You seem to be overly emotional, might be because of your bad experience.
It's in such times that we tend to focus on the less important (you know, those things that make you feel angry or irritated, a few silly things) that should not really matter at all.
Please see what areas your company needs to address:
- Less reputation because of other low-profile examples
- Lack of response from corporate HR
- Lack of branding
See solutions to the above, not ways to underestimate the way others are doing business. In the end, it will not matter if you label someone as a crybaby, immature, or lacking presentation skills. Nothing, because none of us are losing anything by hearing that from you. But you are losing your patience and precious time. It's high time you start focusing on rebuilding the image.
You might say someone is a bad corporate HR—so what? So what for that HR? What for that company? You are the loser. Think about what you can gain from any discussion, not what can make you feel that you have dominated the group discussion and no one can fight you back. Makes no sense, honey.
From India, Madras
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Scared that no one will ever consider you because of the way you have been obviously helpless on this forum, and only crying? (It's not necessary to have white hair to prove one is wiser than the other ;-) )
Re-consider the situation, stop expecting people to be good to you. There is a difference between demanding respect and making people feel that they should respect. It is all in the way you carry your business.
You seem to be overly emotional, might be because of your bad experience.
It's in such times that we tend to focus on the less important (you know, those things that make you feel angry or irritated, a few silly things) that should not really matter at all.
Please see what areas your company needs to address:
- Less reputation because of other low-profile examples
- Lack of response from corporate HR
- Lack of branding
See solutions to the above, not ways to underestimate the way others are doing business. In the end, it will not matter if you label someone as a crybaby, immature, or lacking presentation skills. Nothing, because none of us are losing anything by hearing that from you. But you are losing your patience and precious time. It's high time you start focusing on rebuilding the image.
You might say someone is a bad corporate HR—so what? So what for that HR? What for that company? You are the loser. Think about what you can gain from any discussion, not what can make you feel that you have dominated the group discussion and no one can fight you back. Makes no sense, honey.
From India, Madras
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Dear Asha,
My, my, my... seems I have touched a raw nerve :icon6: Look who is emotional now :huh:
After 15 years in business, pan-India presence, client list of around 100.... and some white hair... we need an advisor with 2 years of limited experience in HR in a couple of companies... I am seriously thinking of hiring you as our unsolicited advisor.
And thanks but no thanks, we qualify a client before doing business. One of the criteria is mature HR executives at the client end. So your company won't qualify :(
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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My, my, my... seems I have touched a raw nerve :icon6: Look who is emotional now :huh:
After 15 years in business, pan-India presence, client list of around 100.... and some white hair... we need an advisor with 2 years of limited experience in HR in a couple of companies... I am seriously thinking of hiring you as our unsolicited advisor.
And thanks but no thanks, we qualify a client before doing business. One of the criteria is mature HR executives at the client end. So your company won't qualify :(
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Well, with all due respect, I disagree with your point of view because before joining my current corporate company, I was also employed in a recruitment consultancy. I've worked there for almost 1 year and dealt with middle and senior management positions for Fortune 500 companies across the globe. When I was working there, I used to send papers to my clients, and within 1-2 weeks, they reverted back with genuine responses. Many times, we also interacted directly with the HR managers to get a clear picture of what they were looking for in a candidate, which, in turn, helped us give our best. Working there has helped me a lot in my career. So, it is not always the same, but yes, there can be some instances with some corporates, not all.
Dear Fellow Recruiters,
With around 3 years in the Recruitment industry as a consultant, I have always had a strong feeling that Corporate HR somehow looks down upon the consultants. They view consultants as lowbrows, mindless, and unintelligent creatures whom they can play around with and take advantage of. Some of them have a hard time hiding how much they despise the consultants!! Any ideas as to why they dislike the consultants so much? Perhaps some from the corporate world can introspect and come up with some truthful answers... please!
I wonder how many corporate HR professionals keep in mind the "Human" factor while dealing with consultants and respect the dignity of labor. Perhaps it is time we have HR professionals taking a Hippocratic oath à la Doctors... Any opinions?
Good HR Associates
From India, New Delhi
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Dear Fellow Recruiters,
With around 3 years in the Recruitment industry as a consultant, I have always had a strong feeling that Corporate HR somehow looks down upon the consultants. They view consultants as lowbrows, mindless, and unintelligent creatures whom they can play around with and take advantage of. Some of them have a hard time hiding how much they despise the consultants!! Any ideas as to why they dislike the consultants so much? Perhaps some from the corporate world can introspect and come up with some truthful answers... please!
I wonder how many corporate HR professionals keep in mind the "Human" factor while dealing with consultants and respect the dignity of labor. Perhaps it is time we have HR professionals taking a Hippocratic oath à la Doctors... Any opinions?
Good HR Associates
From India, New Delhi
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It is not true that all candidates pay more attention to HR managers from the company only seriously. It is my personal experience in my previous company (which was a consultancy) that many people looking for jobs/job change used to get in touch with us directly rather than approaching the company directly. They felt that if their CV is sent through us, then the HR Manager will definitely take a serious look at their CV rather than if they approach them directly. And many times, it was true. This is my personal experience.
Hi, I agree with the point. I am an HR in a company for the last one year. I worked for 1 month in a consultancy for my last semester project, so I can understand the pressure on them. But when I completed my education and got an opportunity in a company, I could feel the difference. Even the candidates give respect to corporate HR rather than consultants. I think it's because now any graduate can enter the consultant field; they should be smart enough to handle the project. But in the case of Corporate, we need MBA only. So, this difference is created by us only:
1. Education-wise
2. All consultants, after gaining experience, look forward to corporate only. This means they themselves give priority to it, even if they are MBA. So, this makes consultants less valuable than corporate HR.
From India, New Delhi
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Hi, I agree with the point. I am an HR in a company for the last one year. I worked for 1 month in a consultancy for my last semester project, so I can understand the pressure on them. But when I completed my education and got an opportunity in a company, I could feel the difference. Even the candidates give respect to corporate HR rather than consultants. I think it's because now any graduate can enter the consultant field; they should be smart enough to handle the project. But in the case of Corporate, we need MBA only. So, this difference is created by us only:
1. Education-wise
2. All consultants, after gaining experience, look forward to corporate only. This means they themselves give priority to it, even if they are MBA. So, this makes consultants less valuable than corporate HR.
From India, New Delhi
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Dear Harman,
I started my career and was once part of the corporate HR. Yes, I agree. Here too, I am only talking about the Bad Corporate HR. We also work for quite a few good corporate HR. Also, the MNC's do respect the consultants and their efforts. You were lucky. Sorry to say, and it hurts, but it is mostly Indian companies, especially the Mid Cap companies, which have the bad corporate HR. Unfortunately, the bad corporate HR from the consultant's perspective outstrips the good corporate HR!
Good Corporate Associates
"Well, with all due respect, I disagree with your point of view because before joining my current corporate company, I was also employed in a recruitment consultancy. I've worked there for almost 1 year and dealt with middle and senior management positions for Fortune 500 companies across the globe. When I was working there, I used to send papers to my clients, and within 1-2 weeks, they reverted back with genuine responses, and many times we also used to interact directly with the HR managers to get a clear picture of what exactly they are looking for in a candidate, which would, in turn, help us give our best.
Working there has helped me a lot in my career. So it is not always the same, but yes, there can be some instances with some corporates, not all."
From India, Chandigarh
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I started my career and was once part of the corporate HR. Yes, I agree. Here too, I am only talking about the Bad Corporate HR. We also work for quite a few good corporate HR. Also, the MNC's do respect the consultants and their efforts. You were lucky. Sorry to say, and it hurts, but it is mostly Indian companies, especially the Mid Cap companies, which have the bad corporate HR. Unfortunately, the bad corporate HR from the consultant's perspective outstrips the good corporate HR!
Good Corporate Associates
"Well, with all due respect, I disagree with your point of view because before joining my current corporate company, I was also employed in a recruitment consultancy. I've worked there for almost 1 year and dealt with middle and senior management positions for Fortune 500 companies across the globe. When I was working there, I used to send papers to my clients, and within 1-2 weeks, they reverted back with genuine responses, and many times we also used to interact directly with the HR managers to get a clear picture of what exactly they are looking for in a candidate, which would, in turn, help us give our best.
Working there has helped me a lot in my career. So it is not always the same, but yes, there can be some instances with some corporates, not all."
From India, Chandigarh
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One thing more I forgot to add was that, now I'm working with a media house as an HR professional and am on the other side of the court now. So, a lot of time the requirements and position openings change from the particular Functional Head only. This may be because the position is frozen on a temporary basis, requirements change, monetary problems arise, internal issues are ongoing, etc. It is not in the hands of the HR to manipulate the position or consultants according to him, as he also has to report to his HR Head regarding his work. The positions are still pending, and the reasons for the delay, etc.
From India, New Delhi
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From India, New Delhi
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Thank you, sir.
I will make sure your business process is not interrupted by such less experienced people (like me). BTW, if you already refine your processes, why did you even initiate such a thread... LOL. It's clear now!
Chill, I don't want to make such an experienced person feel bad.
Ps: I think you did not read my previous lines in response to Mr. Raj, and I am not sure of your diction, but that was just a message to clearly hint that you would never be a preferred consultant with such an attitude. Relax - you are good, okay. :-) Oh, baby baby... sorry ;-)
Yours is only good, now go and play happily.
From India, Madras
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I will make sure your business process is not interrupted by such less experienced people (like me). BTW, if you already refine your processes, why did you even initiate such a thread... LOL. It's clear now!
Chill, I don't want to make such an experienced person feel bad.
Ps: I think you did not read my previous lines in response to Mr. Raj, and I am not sure of your diction, but that was just a message to clearly hint that you would never be a preferred consultant with such an attitude. Relax - you are good, okay. :-) Oh, baby baby... sorry ;-)
Yours is only good, now go and play happily.
From India, Madras
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Hi All,
I think we've seen more than expected arguments here. Though initially, I made a comment in favor of consultants, I just want to add one more thing - that not all are alike. Everywhere you'll find good HRs and bad HRs (be it in corporate or in consultancy) because H stands for Human.
"To make mistakes is human; to stumble is commonplace; to be able to laugh at yourself is maturity" - William A. Ward.
Please don't make things personal here. It's not about empathizing or taking sides; it's about genuinely expressing your thoughts. HRs from both fraternities share a relationship of mutual benefit or dependence, and no one should feel superior or inferior.
Cheers,
Rashmi
From India, Madras
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I think we've seen more than expected arguments here. Though initially, I made a comment in favor of consultants, I just want to add one more thing - that not all are alike. Everywhere you'll find good HRs and bad HRs (be it in corporate or in consultancy) because H stands for Human.
"To make mistakes is human; to stumble is commonplace; to be able to laugh at yourself is maturity" - William A. Ward.
Please don't make things personal here. It's not about empathizing or taking sides; it's about genuinely expressing your thoughts. HRs from both fraternities share a relationship of mutual benefit or dependence, and no one should feel superior or inferior.
Cheers,
Rashmi
From India, Madras
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Hi,
This thread is closed now. You are welcome to comment on another thread which I started. https://www.citehr.com/178731-positi...r-manager.html
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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This thread is closed now. You are welcome to comment on another thread which I started. https://www.citehr.com/178731-positi...r-manager.html
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Hi All,
I feel most of us have given good tempo to the discussion. Ash, Gunjan, Arti, even others seem to be true.
I feel it's part of dealing with another person and it's an art. Even during my last organization, we never misbehaved with any consultant. Though sometimes discussions get hot for issues, not for the person, and that sort of understanding is required sometimes. Though I agree as someone here said, it's also the duty of the supervisor to guide new entrants as they may not have done a professional course. On the other hand, seeing things from an HR perspective requires a lot of insight, understanding, practice, etc.
So what if there are many recruitment consultants here and there? So what? It's their right to be there; that's why they can get better services, and that's the reason some corporates have the upper hand. It's more a relationship of vendor management, learning from one another.
Generally, corporates and consultants set the process and timings to resolve queries. If anyone misbehaves, it's also part of the other person to tackle it tactfully while maintaining their dignity.
That's why, friends, we should keep learning the human processes.
Best Regards,
Rahul
From India, Mumbai
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I feel most of us have given good tempo to the discussion. Ash, Gunjan, Arti, even others seem to be true.
I feel it's part of dealing with another person and it's an art. Even during my last organization, we never misbehaved with any consultant. Though sometimes discussions get hot for issues, not for the person, and that sort of understanding is required sometimes. Though I agree as someone here said, it's also the duty of the supervisor to guide new entrants as they may not have done a professional course. On the other hand, seeing things from an HR perspective requires a lot of insight, understanding, practice, etc.
So what if there are many recruitment consultants here and there? So what? It's their right to be there; that's why they can get better services, and that's the reason some corporates have the upper hand. It's more a relationship of vendor management, learning from one another.
Generally, corporates and consultants set the process and timings to resolve queries. If anyone misbehaves, it's also part of the other person to tackle it tactfully while maintaining their dignity.
That's why, friends, we should keep learning the human processes.
Best Regards,
Rahul
From India, Mumbai
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Hi,
I'm sorry, but I don't agree here. There are consultants who have earned a name in their field, and they are welcomed like a business partner in their client industries because of their hard work, honesty, ethics, and knowledge of business.
At the same time, there are plenty who have just opened a shop kind of consultancy and try to sell their services at any cost. At times, they try to bribe HR people with a share in the placement fees. They don't operate like a business. Instead, they hire young boys and girls on lower wages without any knowledge about recruitment and force them to go and meet HR people in every industry, as if they are going door-to-door selling soaps and creams. These are the consultants who are treated the way mentioned above.
I have seen that most companies, after proper informal analysis, have chosen a few consultants to work with, and then a relationship is developed based on long-term trust in business. Such consultants command all due respect.
I have dealt with consultants who try to ask for a share in consultancy fees, propose better placements, and even attempt to switch employees placed by them to other customers without any moral obligation.
I dislike some of them, and I respect some of them.
Does anyone agree?
Regards
From India, Lucknow
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I'm sorry, but I don't agree here. There are consultants who have earned a name in their field, and they are welcomed like a business partner in their client industries because of their hard work, honesty, ethics, and knowledge of business.
At the same time, there are plenty who have just opened a shop kind of consultancy and try to sell their services at any cost. At times, they try to bribe HR people with a share in the placement fees. They don't operate like a business. Instead, they hire young boys and girls on lower wages without any knowledge about recruitment and force them to go and meet HR people in every industry, as if they are going door-to-door selling soaps and creams. These are the consultants who are treated the way mentioned above.
I have seen that most companies, after proper informal analysis, have chosen a few consultants to work with, and then a relationship is developed based on long-term trust in business. Such consultants command all due respect.
I have dealt with consultants who try to ask for a share in consultancy fees, propose better placements, and even attempt to switch employees placed by them to other customers without any moral obligation.
I dislike some of them, and I respect some of them.
Does anyone agree?
Regards
From India, Lucknow
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Dear Shekhar,
Thanks for your post. I agree there are many bad consultants who can be weeded out by not giving business to them. Here I am talking through my own experience of a small but extremely professional consultancy that has deep roots in recruitments. Even they are treated shabbily by Bad Corp HR.
To summarize:
- The issue is Good Consultants Vs Bad Corp HR.
- The need is for Good Corp HR to influence the Bad Corp HR and help clean up the system for Good Consultants & ethical recruitment practices.
- Good consultants suffer both because of Bad Corp HR & Bad Consultants.
- Only Good Corp HR can help.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks for your post. I agree there are many bad consultants who can be weeded out by not giving business to them. Here I am talking through my own experience of a small but extremely professional consultancy that has deep roots in recruitments. Even they are treated shabbily by Bad Corp HR.
To summarize:
- The issue is Good Consultants Vs Bad Corp HR.
- The need is for Good Corp HR to influence the Bad Corp HR and help clean up the system for Good Consultants & ethical recruitment practices.
- Good consultants suffer both because of Bad Corp HR & Bad Consultants.
- Only Good Corp HR can help.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Hi,
I find it uncomfortable to define good or bad, either for corporate HR or consultants. Instead, we can focus on adopting better HR practices. As you all have discussed, setting up processes is important, but ultimately, it is about person-to-person interaction. For individuals, it is essential to understand the mental model—perceptions about oneself, one's team, one's organization, as well as perceptions of others, and engaging in dialogue (dialogue, i.e., having meaningful conversations) and conversations.
Anyway, it was quite a healthy discussion altogether.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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I find it uncomfortable to define good or bad, either for corporate HR or consultants. Instead, we can focus on adopting better HR practices. As you all have discussed, setting up processes is important, but ultimately, it is about person-to-person interaction. For individuals, it is essential to understand the mental model—perceptions about oneself, one's team, one's organization, as well as perceptions of others, and engaging in dialogue (dialogue, i.e., having meaningful conversations) and conversations.
Anyway, it was quite a healthy discussion altogether.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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Dear,
I am an HR professional who graduated in 2003 and currently working in the administration department of a construction company. I have been applying for HR vacancies through the internet, but I am puzzled as to why I am not receiving any responses for HR positions. I have made several changes to my resume format over extended periods, but it seems to have made no difference.
Could you please guide me on how to improve my chances in this regard? I have attached my resume for your reference.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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I am an HR professional who graduated in 2003 and currently working in the administration department of a construction company. I have been applying for HR vacancies through the internet, but I am puzzled as to why I am not receiving any responses for HR positions. I have made several changes to my resume format over extended periods, but it seems to have made no difference.
Could you please guide me on how to improve my chances in this regard? I have attached my resume for your reference.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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