I have been a regular participant and reader of the CiteHR forum and I appreciate the discussion topics though relatively geared towards Indian system. My concern over the years has been the glaring disregard or lack of knowledge of the English language and its grammar. I would be more than willing to assist in correcting these and hence assist people to have a better understanding of the language. Its disheartening to see people even with Phds write in grammatically wrong English. Let me know how I can help.
From Kenya, Nairobi
From Kenya, Nairobi
Dear Mr Simon Ngugi,
I appreciate your concern about the quality of English and your initiative to help improve the posts written in poor English. Your readiness to do this is appreciable.
Posts written in poor English are not just boring but irksome too. But then members of this forum come from varied background and they might have studied in vernacular medium. That is why their English is poor.
However, once a person enters into a professional world, it is his/her duty to improve a command over English. That exactly does not happen. Rather than showing personal interest or willingness to improve English, they people bask in lifelong excuse for having studied in vernacular schools!
Overall HR Forums give emphasis on solving the issues of the workplace (that are raised by the junior or needy members) and the advising members are expected to provide solution rather than raising the objection on how the post is written. Nevertheless priorities of this kind almost give short shrift to the quality of the English.
The subject comes up for the discussion time and again. I have been giving replies or initiating the threads on this subject. You may click the following link to refer my reply that was given to Mr Harsh Shukla:
https://www.citehr.com/461106-commun...ml#post2057988
From my side, I have given advice on how to improve the English about a decade ago. You may click the following link to refer it:
https://www.citehr.com/118064-how-im...tml#post489101
It is quite regretful to note that quality of the English has remained poor even after a decade. My only wish is that some other member like you should not raise similar post in 2028!
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
7855I appreciate your concern about the quality of English and your initiative to help improve the posts written in poor English. Your readiness to do this is appreciable.
Posts written in poor English are not just boring but irksome too. But then members of this forum come from varied background and they might have studied in vernacular medium. That is why their English is poor.
However, once a person enters into a professional world, it is his/her duty to improve a command over English. That exactly does not happen. Rather than showing personal interest or willingness to improve English, they people bask in lifelong excuse for having studied in vernacular schools!
Overall HR Forums give emphasis on solving the issues of the workplace (that are raised by the junior or needy members) and the advising members are expected to provide solution rather than raising the objection on how the post is written. Nevertheless priorities of this kind almost give short shrift to the quality of the English.
The subject comes up for the discussion time and again. I have been giving replies or initiating the threads on this subject. You may click the following link to refer my reply that was given to Mr Harsh Shukla:
https://www.citehr.com/461106-commun...ml#post2057988
From my side, I have given advice on how to improve the English about a decade ago. You may click the following link to refer it:
https://www.citehr.com/118064-how-im...tml#post489101
It is quite regretful to note that quality of the English has remained poor even after a decade. My only wish is that some other member like you should not raise similar post in 2028!
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Dear Anonymous,
Please send a message to Sid, the Administrator of Citehr. If he gives you the status of a Moderator then you can correct the English by editing the messages. Alternatively, you can copy and paste the message to a word file and send the corrected version to the author of the message by a Private Message.
The so called Grammar Check sites do not seem to highlight small mistakes.
I wonder why you decided not to disclose your identity!!
From United Kingdom
Please send a message to Sid, the Administrator of Citehr. If he gives you the status of a Moderator then you can correct the English by editing the messages. Alternatively, you can copy and paste the message to a word file and send the corrected version to the author of the message by a Private Message.
The so called Grammar Check sites do not seem to highlight small mistakes.
I wonder why you decided not to disclose your identity!!
From United Kingdom
Dear Mr Narasimhan K,
You have written that "The so called Grammar Check sites do not seem to highlight small mistakes." Why bother about small mistakes when big ones are clearly marked? In fact far from grammar, members of this forum in general and HR professionals in particular do not bother to do even spell-check. Each browser like Chrome, Microsoft Edge, Mozilla Firefox etc has facility for the auto spell-check? But it requires willpower to use it!
People do not want to learn rules of grammar. They do not want to type their post on MS Word and then just copy and paste it. There is limit to one's lethargy!
Thanks and regards,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
You have written that "The so called Grammar Check sites do not seem to highlight small mistakes." Why bother about small mistakes when big ones are clearly marked? In fact far from grammar, members of this forum in general and HR professionals in particular do not bother to do even spell-check. Each browser like Chrome, Microsoft Edge, Mozilla Firefox etc has facility for the auto spell-check? But it requires willpower to use it!
People do not want to learn rules of grammar. They do not want to type their post on MS Word and then just copy and paste it. There is limit to one's lethargy!
Thanks and regards,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Many posts in the forum lack grammar, proper spellings and punctuations.
Queries are incomplete and incoherent at times.
Other members would find it difficult to answer with such incomplete submissions.
All querists must disclose their names, designations while posting doubts/questions on the forum.Name can be anonymous as per situation but designation or work position should be mentioned.
Probably the site itself can introduce a spell checker which will highlight spelling mistakes.
Use of SMS language needs to be totally eschewed and similarly use of abbreviations which are not generally known to all people.
It would also be nice if querists finally give a reply if their problems are solved based on advice from this forum.
A typical example is repeat query on gratuity with 4 years 9 months service.
Several querists have raised this point but no one has ever come back and told the forum whether he finally got gratuity payment with lesser than 5 years continuous service.
Framing the question clearly and in small paragraphs in coherent form will help in getting better and quicker replies.
From India, Pune
Queries are incomplete and incoherent at times.
Other members would find it difficult to answer with such incomplete submissions.
All querists must disclose their names, designations while posting doubts/questions on the forum.Name can be anonymous as per situation but designation or work position should be mentioned.
Probably the site itself can introduce a spell checker which will highlight spelling mistakes.
Use of SMS language needs to be totally eschewed and similarly use of abbreviations which are not generally known to all people.
It would also be nice if querists finally give a reply if their problems are solved based on advice from this forum.
A typical example is repeat query on gratuity with 4 years 9 months service.
Several querists have raised this point but no one has ever come back and told the forum whether he finally got gratuity payment with lesser than 5 years continuous service.
Framing the question clearly and in small paragraphs in coherent form will help in getting better and quicker replies.
From India, Pune
I feel the language is a tool for communication. The person who is poor in English language should not be looked down upon just because he committed some grammatical mistakes. He is not sitting here in an IELTS or somewhat similar test. It should be sufficient if has has been able to make his point clear and understandable. I remember a dialogue of old Hindi Film of famous Superstar Rajesh Khanna saying "don't go to the words. Have you understood the meaning".
With regards,
Jacob Pratap,
Deputy Labour Commissioner, Punjab (Retd.)
9855733744
From India, Chandigarh
With regards,
Jacob Pratap,
Deputy Labour Commissioner, Punjab (Retd.)
9855733744
From India, Chandigarh
Dear Simhan,
It requires some fineness of mind to offer ones time and effort to teach English to posters who are unable to express themselves clearly in dramatically correct and understandable English.
I observe regretfully that some so called seniors who criticise bad English of posters, themselves are found to express themselves badly or in grammatically wrong English .
So your help in teaching English will be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Vinayak Nagarkar
HR- Consultant.
From India, Mumbai
It requires some fineness of mind to offer ones time and effort to teach English to posters who are unable to express themselves clearly in dramatically correct and understandable English.
I observe regretfully that some so called seniors who criticise bad English of posters, themselves are found to express themselves badly or in grammatically wrong English .
So your help in teaching English will be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Vinayak Nagarkar
HR- Consultant.
From India, Mumbai
Dear Mr Jacob Pratap,
It appears that you have joined recently. Welcome to the forum!
Coming to your reply. You have written that "The person who is poor in English language should not be looked down upon just because he committed some grammatical mistakes." Nobody has looked down upon the fellow member for his/her poor English. Thousands of egregious posts exists on this forum and their long-time availability without any protest is the evidence of the fact that senior members have tried understanding the point, without bothering much about quality of English. These posts is also a evidence of the liberal mindset of the seniors or those who value quality English!
However, the larger point is if seniors do not bring to the notice of juniors about poor quality of the posts, who else will? This is a forum for HR community wherein people help one another by sharing knowledge. Criticism, is it not a knowledge-sharing activity?
Should we be in agreement with the fellow member forever?
Every forum needs to have some professional standards otherwise, it goes haywire. However, members take the forum for granted. Amidst this, if we remember dialogue in the Hindi film "don't go to the words. Have you understood the meaning" then will it not be rationalisation with the poor quality? Life on the silver screen cannot be mixed with the real life. Please note that today's rationalisation could be tomorrow's justification.
India has moved far ahead. We are in 21st century and there are many companies who produce world-class products or services. However, these companies have attained their pinnacle of excellence because of their deadly commitment to the quality. Quality need not be restricted only for the production of goods but it has to be made way of life. In the personal capacity also when a person writes, it reflects one's commitment to quality.
Partially problem also arises because of the inability to distinguish between when to be formal and when to be informal. Informality has been ingrained in the blood of younger generation that they consider anything and everything is informal. The collateral damage of this attitude is the demolition of the standards which were developed long ago. Those who take pride in maintaining these well-established standards, when they cannot reconcile with this demolition, are they at fault?
Seniors' objection is limited to laziness of the junior members. Does it require great effort to write a post on MS Word and then copy and paste it? In fact most of the browsers have spell-check facility. Does it require a great intellect to click on the word with red underline and correct it?
For Mr Vinayak Nagarkar: - You have raised objection on the poor quality of English of the seniors. It could be valid also. Sometimes, I have uploaded my posts without reading them and when I read those later, I found several mistakes in them. However, this happens because of the two reasons. One is that we are not professional typists and secondly, we are supposed to write a reply, take a printout, identify mistakes and then correct the soft copy of the draft and then upload it. It may not be possible to do this for each post. However, mistake is mistake and I carried sense of guilt for uploading posts without error-check. There cannot be any justification for writing incorrectly, whether by seniors or juniors.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
It appears that you have joined recently. Welcome to the forum!
Coming to your reply. You have written that "The person who is poor in English language should not be looked down upon just because he committed some grammatical mistakes." Nobody has looked down upon the fellow member for his/her poor English. Thousands of egregious posts exists on this forum and their long-time availability without any protest is the evidence of the fact that senior members have tried understanding the point, without bothering much about quality of English. These posts is also a evidence of the liberal mindset of the seniors or those who value quality English!
However, the larger point is if seniors do not bring to the notice of juniors about poor quality of the posts, who else will? This is a forum for HR community wherein people help one another by sharing knowledge. Criticism, is it not a knowledge-sharing activity?
Should we be in agreement with the fellow member forever?
Every forum needs to have some professional standards otherwise, it goes haywire. However, members take the forum for granted. Amidst this, if we remember dialogue in the Hindi film "don't go to the words. Have you understood the meaning" then will it not be rationalisation with the poor quality? Life on the silver screen cannot be mixed with the real life. Please note that today's rationalisation could be tomorrow's justification.
India has moved far ahead. We are in 21st century and there are many companies who produce world-class products or services. However, these companies have attained their pinnacle of excellence because of their deadly commitment to the quality. Quality need not be restricted only for the production of goods but it has to be made way of life. In the personal capacity also when a person writes, it reflects one's commitment to quality.
Partially problem also arises because of the inability to distinguish between when to be formal and when to be informal. Informality has been ingrained in the blood of younger generation that they consider anything and everything is informal. The collateral damage of this attitude is the demolition of the standards which were developed long ago. Those who take pride in maintaining these well-established standards, when they cannot reconcile with this demolition, are they at fault?
Seniors' objection is limited to laziness of the junior members. Does it require great effort to write a post on MS Word and then copy and paste it? In fact most of the browsers have spell-check facility. Does it require a great intellect to click on the word with red underline and correct it?
For Mr Vinayak Nagarkar: - You have raised objection on the poor quality of English of the seniors. It could be valid also. Sometimes, I have uploaded my posts without reading them and when I read those later, I found several mistakes in them. However, this happens because of the two reasons. One is that we are not professional typists and secondly, we are supposed to write a reply, take a printout, identify mistakes and then correct the soft copy of the draft and then upload it. It may not be possible to do this for each post. However, mistake is mistake and I carried sense of guilt for uploading posts without error-check. There cannot be any justification for writing incorrectly, whether by seniors or juniors.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Dear Mr Jacob,
I would like to simply state that no senior in this forum looks down upon anyone in any manner what so ever-whether it due to poor English or a professional who shows lack of basic knowledge of the subject.
What gets pointed out is incoherent narratives of an incident/query which prevents a proper answer or query which shows poor presentation -be it terms of knowledge or facts.
Seniors or fellow posters will be failing in their duty of imparting knowledge if they fail to gently correct -grammar, punctuation and incorrect facts/statements about laws.
When Learned Member Dinesh Divekarji writes this "Informality has been ingrained in the blood of younger generation that they consider anything and everything is informal."
I would go out of my way to support this contention.
You need to be formal in the forum when you are seeking help/clarifications.
Informality and professionalism are two different things.
First one has to be show a professional attitude and then think in terms of informal behaviour/queries.
Let the forum be of higher professional standards.
I always take any correction by any member in positive way.
I am no Professor in English, but make positive efforts to present answers in coherent manner, quoting relevant Acts.Sections to back up the reply.
Finally I would conclude by saying learning by sharing and mutual corrections is a good way to progress in professional field.
No one is perfect and all knowledgeable and all of us learn and keep learning.
From India, Pune
I would like to simply state that no senior in this forum looks down upon anyone in any manner what so ever-whether it due to poor English or a professional who shows lack of basic knowledge of the subject.
What gets pointed out is incoherent narratives of an incident/query which prevents a proper answer or query which shows poor presentation -be it terms of knowledge or facts.
Seniors or fellow posters will be failing in their duty of imparting knowledge if they fail to gently correct -grammar, punctuation and incorrect facts/statements about laws.
When Learned Member Dinesh Divekarji writes this "Informality has been ingrained in the blood of younger generation that they consider anything and everything is informal."
I would go out of my way to support this contention.
You need to be formal in the forum when you are seeking help/clarifications.
Informality and professionalism are two different things.
First one has to be show a professional attitude and then think in terms of informal behaviour/queries.
Let the forum be of higher professional standards.
I always take any correction by any member in positive way.
I am no Professor in English, but make positive efforts to present answers in coherent manner, quoting relevant Acts.Sections to back up the reply.
Finally I would conclude by saying learning by sharing and mutual corrections is a good way to progress in professional field.
No one is perfect and all knowledgeable and all of us learn and keep learning.
From India, Pune
Mr Nagarkar,
Without prolonging this point,I would certainly say most seniors on the forum are role models in their own way.
Time spent in answers and standard of help is quite high.
Some people do write long narrative, but whether it has substance or not is a matter of individual opinion.
I would certainly avoid giving any type of comment about narration and style of other members..
The promptness displayed in answering queries by many members is appreciable and most are full time employees/ entrepreneurs etc and time is at a premium for them
From India, Pune
Without prolonging this point,I would certainly say most seniors on the forum are role models in their own way.
Time spent in answers and standard of help is quite high.
Some people do write long narrative, but whether it has substance or not is a matter of individual opinion.
I would certainly avoid giving any type of comment about narration and style of other members..
The promptness displayed in answering queries by many members is appreciable and most are full time employees/ entrepreneurs etc and time is at a premium for them
From India, Pune
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