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Thread Started by #neetahr

Hi friends, this is neeta, new to this forum.....
Friends I would like to know that if an employee who has worked for a company for more than eight years and holds a good position (managerial cadre) can he be sacked immediately without any notice becos of his involvement in some unethical practices??
regards
neeta
18th October 2007 From India, Bangalore
Go for written evidences and some good proof against him if you have to sack him. Or you may have to loose your job if you are proved wrong. Regards Ank
18th October 2007 From India, Pune
if you have proof with you, there is no point in retaining employees , who are involved in unethical things....i feel there is no need of prior intimation before sacking him/her.... hanuma
18th October 2007 From India, Kakinada
Please have a look at his appointment letter. There should be a clause about termination in it. Normally the appointment letter provides for summary termination for misconduct, and compensation in lieu of notice period (payable by the employer) for termination of services, without assigning any reason. You may adopt either of this methods, as applicable, and terminate his services forthwith.
Some companies prefer giving the employee an opportunity to resign voluntarily, rather than terminating his/her services, especially if the employee has been with the company for a long time like in this case.
18th October 2007 From India, Mumbai
hi neeta,
i would suggest you to as mentioned by others go for appointment letter details , cndition are mentioned there .
secondaly i would suggest you to check whethere the unethical act as you mentioned is of civil type or criminal type ?
for everything you have to collect the proof to support your act.
if it is having any complaint by management or any staff members , add it in your letter , as a reason.
in general way the notice should be given to ,ask why not the procedure for his/her removal should be done ?
best of luck
18th October 2007 From India, Indore
Dear Neeta,

AS mentioned by other users first check the nature of crime ie civil or criminal. if it is a criminal there is no need to give any explanations how ever make sure you have written evidences so that you dont get in to any problem later. irrespective of the cadre or position the person holds inthe company if found guilty the company and management has right to expel the individual out of the office.

the other aspect which you have to check upon is terms and conditions mentioned in the appointment letter. normally it says both parties must give one month notice when a decision of leaving the office takes place either voluntorily or un volunterily. so keep this point on the check list.

make sure that you gather necessary information from colleagues (intra and inter department), from his official system ie scan the system so that you do have substantial evidences about the activitiy.

intimate everything in writing by marking a copy to his immediate supervisor and to your supervisor.

document the same in hard copies in his individual file along with necessary signatures.

make sure that a formal mail or letter goes to every department in your organization either related directly or indirectly, if possible limit this activity to the department heads so that lower levels in the organization dont get panicked and start discussing. this might result in employee demotivation.

after you perform all the above mentioned activities make sure that you speak to the accused managers immediate sub ordinates and his team to ensure them insecurity in job comes only when an employee is associated with some criminal or civil which effects the reputation of the company as a whole. this will show that company in line with HR department is concerned about other employees in the department.

hope the points mentioned will be of some help to you.

all the best

regards

suresh
18th October 2007 From United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi
neeta
when you discuss with accussed make sure that you dont initiate the talk in front of all other employees. if possible ask the acussed employee to meet the officials in private either at hotel or at dicussion room which is away from other employee eye site. try to ask your legal person to accompany you all while you have a final discussion so that all the proceedings are documented,authorised and ensures that it complies with the labour law or employee law prevailing in india.
regards
suresh
18th October 2007 From United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi
Dear Ms. Neeta,
You can terminate with notice as per the appointment letter or letter of contrcat.
BUT there are certain litmus test that you should conduct.
1. whether he is an workmen or not under section 2(s) of the Industrial Disputes act.
2. because designated as manager not necessarily an exempted employee under ID Act. ( pl refer Vazir sultan tobacco Co case-AP high Court) What sort of jobs and responsebilities he had been executed. If his job is purely a managerial or administrative in nature i.e ascertain whether he ahs control over a team of employees, authorise leave and refuse leave, issue charge sheet or warning letter to the employee working under him, conducting appraisal and recommend for increment or no increment etc.
If litmus test proves positve the you can terminate with due notice or salary in lieu of such notiuce.
Regards
Michael Nicholas
19th October 2007 From India, Madras
Hi friends thanks a million for your suggestions im sure that i will be able to handle this issue.....
our appointment letter mentions that either parties should give a prior notice of 1 month before leaving the organisation voluntarily or involuntarily, but if this person is asked to report to the office for a month then there are possibilities that he can poison the minds of his team mates. wat can be the alternate solutions to handle this ??
regards
neeta
19th October 2007 From India, Bangalore
Neeta,
I had seen one of the employee who worked for 15 consecutive years with one of the MNC at Delhi and sacked within a minute . He was one of the manager and an oldest employee of the company.When he asked the HR and upper management for the cause,,, the answer was simple" It's JUST Cause" and even told that management is not answerable to anyone for one reason or other.
Thanks
dev
19th October 2007 From India, Gurgaon
Dear Neeta,

Sacking employee should not be thought only from the statutory viewpoint but from organisational viewpoint as well. Following points needs consideration:

a) Following legal procedure will it not enhance your image within the company - that you follow ethical business practices?

b) Following legal practices improves or maintains the morale of the employees that organisation is just.

c) If you sack employee without giving due notice morale of the current employee may go down. Will you be able to retain talent in such case? Will it foster attrition?

d) By following Hire and Fire policy will you able to attract better talent in future?

e) If employee was engaged in unethical business practices then what you audit department was doing? Why there were not proper checks and balances? How come no employee reported this fact to management? Or even if the fact was reported management dilly-dallied and now all of a sudden wants to take a stringent action to send a "right" message to all employees?

f) Indian Criminal Law stipulates that accused must be given a chance to defend himself and then only he/she should be pronounced as guilty. Why are you shy of giving chance to prove him not guilty?

g) Take disciplinary action notwithstanding his length of service.

h) For Mr Dev only: - Sacking of an employee by MNC without giving due notice is wholly illegal. Just that employee did not approach labour office does not mean that MNC was correct in sacking an employee. Law is equal for all it does not differentiate between Indian and foreign company! Day in day out we talk about "Values" "Ethical Business Practices", then where is the question of sacking an employee without notice?

Thanks,

Dinesh V Divekar
19th October 2007 From India, Bangalore
Yes , he can be sacked for his unethical work with the company.
But you should have strong proof to proove the same to ur mgt. if u have you can go ahead.
He should be punishable for his unethical behavoiur.
Thanks,
19th October 2007 From India, Mumbai
Neeta, What unethical he did, can u specify???????? What are your decision making powers in ur company ??????? Would you take decision individually or jointly as Management with Management.
19th October 2007 From India, Pune
I guess I am 'senior' enough to give an advice in this matter by virtue of over two decades of experience, and this is my advice.

Go ahead and terminate his services, by giving him a letter of termination under the clause in the appointment letter that empowers the company to do so. Tell him not to come to the office any more, and give him one month's pay in lieu of notice. Your action would be perfectly legal and no court would question you since the appointment letter that he has accepted, with the clause about separation, is a valid contract. As far as the morale of other employees is concerned, I am sure by now everybody knows about whatever he has done, and are waiting to see what action the management is going to take in the matter.I can assure you that by sacking this person, you will be sending the right message across to the employees that the management brooks no nonsense of this sort will sternly act against anydody committing a breach of trust. Nobody is going to perceive this as a 'hire and fire policy' eithrer, unless your company has been sacking employees left right and center.
19th October 2007 From India, Mumbai
Dear Neeta,
Before sacking anyone, the principal of natural justice has to be followed and an oppurtunity of being heard must be given to the person concerned. This is mandatory whatever be the nature of the offence.
Sachin Jayaswal
19th October 2007
Hi Neeta
If he is a managerial person even "Loss of trust" could be a reason for his removal.I suggest pay 'one month notice pay' with a letter stating that the management is not seeing a possible working relationship with him any more therefore enclosing a cheque towards one month notice pay as stipulated under --- clause of his appointment order and dispense him with out any stigma attached.
MSV
19th October 2007
An employee ca be " dismissed"// discharged , wit immediate effect, for the misconduct stated by you in this case. No Notice or pay in lieu thereof is mandatory. It is a case for dischager simplisiter.
The misconduct can be treated as as dereliction of duty / disobedience of Standing Orders / Rule of your Co framed thereunder.
Harsh

19th October 2007 From India, Delhi
Dear Neekita
As other clearly mentioned first thing is the intensity of the crime and also whether it is criminal or civil.
Both need to undergo series of procedures as clearly prescribed in the appoinment letter.
Each and every activities have to be documented and should be circulated to all the other employees in the organisation to create an insecurity for the employees for every unethical activites.
All the very best
R.Palanivelkumar MBA
22nd October 2007 From India, Coimbatore
Yes and employee can be terminated immediately without notice based on the below.
1) Proof or Evidence implying his unethical intentions
2) The clause of termination in his offer or appointment letter
3) Or the termination policy of the organization.
If there are any monetary or anyother kind of damage that has happened to the organization please mention the same coz you can always show him at its in the good interest of the organizatons growth and reputation that he is asked to leave. please note undisputed evidence have to be presented.
22nd October 2007 From United States, Washington
Hi Neetha,
First ascertain whether the misconduct demands termination as stated in the standing orders of the company. Talk to the employee and tell him about his misdeeds and ask him to resign immediately and tell him that his services will be terminated if he did not resign and he is being given an opportunity to resign so that you would not want to harm his carrer by terminating his services. Still if he does not budge, you can opt for the terminal punishment. A Manager cannot file a case in the labour court since he is not a worker. Only way he can claim damages is by filing a civil suit in the civil court. It his always better to get his resignation.
Sharath
22nd October 2007 From India, Maisuru
Hello Neeta,
Before sacking any employee, for whatso ever the reason may be--
DOMESTIC ENQUIRY should be conducted where the victim gets an opportunity to be heard.after the enquiry the management will give the final say(award him/her).
This is what the principle of Natural Justice says.
Because sacking an employee is not a child's play. we must see the consecqunces of expeling an employee. He might go to labour Courts & tribunals to get JUSTICE. so in that case you need to have ample proofs & grounds to hold your stance.
Then you start thinking of your Company's Image & GOOD-Will.
I will always suggest to - ask the employee to tender Resignation, where neither party will be at risk .
Or else dear Neeta, it's my sincere request to conduct a Domestic Enquiry before ariving to any final decision.
Regards,
Archana
22nd October 2007 From India, Pune
Well you can terminate subject to the terms and conditions in the appointment letter. With having sufficient witness/written proofs you can terminate him giving him one month pay in lieu of notice.
regards
nktiwari
22nd October 2007 From United States, Cambridge
As far as this case is concerned, the appointment letter is a ready reference and definitely there will a para mentioned the terms and conditions. So you can go as per that.
Ofcourse, you can dismiss him without mentioning any reason for such a unethical practice.
But normally companies ask for voluntary resignation from the particular employee keeping in view his long service.
For any such a action, you have to have authentic proof and evidance.
Thanks
sampathkumar
22nd October 2007 From India, New Delhi
Hi,
It depends upon the clause written in Appointment Letter. If it is written he can be terminated but as per Labour Laws one month Notice or one month salary has to be given.
But if it is written i Appointment letter you may.
Thanks and Regards
Sreejith
22nd October 2007 From India, New Delhi
Such sacking can happen if it is included as a termination clause in the offer letter or in the benefits manual which is openly circulated. However enough written evidence needs to be collected to prove that the findings were of such a nature that could lead to immediate termination irrespective of the grade. There can also be a factor where the employee was given a chance to put his defence and this has been adequatly recorded and signed failing which the sacked employee can approach court pleading that he/she was not allowed a defence.
22nd October 2007 From United Kingdom, Belfast
Hi, It is not required for the HR or management to give notice period to the employee who went against the company. Thans Pallavi.
23rd October 2007 From India, Mumbai
I fully agree with the views of Archana. No employee can be sacked without inquiry & following the disciplinary proceeding against him/her. A notice should be given to the concerned person setting out the misconduct asking him to reply within a specified period (maybe one week).
Once he submits his defence, conduct in person enquiry, record the proceeding of the enquiry in writing, sign the proceeding (both you & the employee concerned) & then only send your recommendation in writing to the management for his/ her dismissal clearly stating the grounds of dismissal.
Adopting this procedure will help you a lot if the dismissed person goes to court. If the procedure is proper, the courts will look into the merits of the case. If the procedure is improper, then the court will set aside the dismissal order without even going into the merits of the case.
Sachin Jayaswal
23rd October 2007
Usually, there is a provision for pay in lieu of notice from either side. Since his continuation in the company is undesirable, notice pay may br given in lieu of the notice of one month. Ashok
23rd October 2007 From India, Bhubaneswar
In such a case if the sacked employee was in a service agreement
with the company then can the company claim the bond amount
as you know all the employment bonds are one sided i.e always the employee has to pay .
here the company is asking the employee to leave so can the company claim for the bond amount .
Please reply its urgent

23rd October 2007 From India, Hyderabad
I think so . and the management need not state any reason for sacking. its written in the 'ORDER' u receive.
23rd October 2007 From India, Hyderabad
Hi
It is actually unethical to terminate an employee without a valid reason and without following the procedure. If an employee is found involved in an unethical activity the first thing we need do is :give that employee a show cause notice and ask for explanation within 24 hours and that should be handed over with a witness from the staff.
After getting the explanation from the staff we need to hold a discussion with him personally and in the presence of another staff representatives. And if he could not justify properly his deed, the company management can fire him by giving one month salary in advance.
Any how we need seek his explanation that in what prompted him to do it. By this enquiry we can even find more names that are involved in the same plot.
Afsal
9995559004
24th October 2007 From India, Madras
First option try to get resignation from him. If not possible issue charge sheet and conduct enquiry and dissmis him. u no need to prove his misconduct 100% as in criminal trail. u collect some documentry evidance and 2 witnesses to give evidance only as much they have knowledge about the case. Let them even not favour either company or the misconduct person. Let them say only the existing procedure in their evidence and u can prove as how the misconduct person has deviated the procedure.After enquiry u can even dismiss him on the ground of loss of confidance on employee. Whether he is a worker/staff/executive better dismiss him after giving proper oppurtunity to defend himself. if u appoint a enquiry officer he will see all the formalities. Though enquiry proceedisds has some pratical difficulties it is always best to to diemiss an employee after conducting a enquiry.
24th October 2007
Thanks a million friends....
This is wat we did..
We collected every document ,written proofs and also eye witnesses...all these details were brought forward to the management ,with all this he could not justify himself ....so, asked for a written resignation and was relieved immeadiately.His salary and final settlements are adjusted against the financial dues he need to settle to the company.
24th October 2007 From India, Bangalore
Dear Friends
As per laws, no confirmed employee who comes in the payroll of the company can be sacked without the below mentioned process...
a show cause notice to be given with a deadline for the cause to be produced by the employee.
based on the reply given by the employee on the show-cause notice, he can even be sacked.
Pravin.
24th October 2007 From India, Madras
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