Cite.Co is a repository of information and resources created by industry seniors and experts sharing their real world insights. Join Network
Hello Sir,

Thanks for an elaborated post. :)

To be little honest, never heard or experienced this situation, but a good point to think over.

This was exactly the same point I am trying to convey... Measuring HR's efforts and putting them in numbers is a little difficult task for this reason. However, at the same time I do not say it's impossible, else I would not have worked on the project of HR Metrics.

Agreed to the point - HR is like a service industry but again by citing example would like to put forth my point.

Say for example we took a cab service. The driver came on time to pick us up, he was clam and serene all through the way, he managed the temperature of the cab well and the cab was clean... The speed was good and he managed well compared to the Indian road condition, Though we reached a bit late as per the destined time, we know it was only coz of the traffic we faced and he too could not help us in that matter.

Now about identifying and numbering the services, is like rating each of the above mentioned things on a scale of 1 to 10 (just for example)

And another thing is, the temperature must have been ideal for you but it was too cold for someone accompanying you and hence again the numbering would vary...

All I wanted to say was there can't be just one yardstick. Different people will judge the service provided in different way.... Let's take simple example... If the company needs a very niche technical profile which took about 60 days to close, the technical person might know that it would ideally have taken so long or still longer.... but the top management will feel 60 days to fill one position is a bad job....

I hope I've not over stepped just wanted to put forth the idea that we need to start measuring our efforts using a different scale, one that will help us to convince management how HR's efforts help the overall business...

From India, Mumbai
Hi Ankita,

Request you to read the post carefully and try to look into the inner meaning of the post.Its not about measuring or quantifying something, it calls for more of humane efforts that will be required to win the people.Once the people you win, it will require that they be moulded through training and nurturing them for the requisite purpose.Then make them to follow what you want, keep on guiding and encouraging them by being with them.Once you are satisfied and assured of your own people and their level of dedication & integration, they will do any thing for you.

Organisations and management wants this to happen and in many places this happens with due efforts and contribution from management as well.

Just think of one more situation" In war solidiers fight and sacrifice their lives with out a hitch"No Hr is available in the field.It is their leaders that enculcate the feeling of that ownership, responsibility and pride in soldiers towards the nation.Having said this I think that service can Not be quantified, but on the other hand, i m afraid measuring services will make employees more focused on completing the target than having sense of ownership and pride.(Loss of Quality and fruitless output). I m talking about Hr who can create people/employees who are not number driven but the driven by inner force and energy and emotions of ownership,sense of responsibility,pride and integrity towards the organisation.

To Sum up,It should be our immense effort to be a part of people together including the management in achievement of organisational goals,where hr must command the reins of people towards making a organisation a brand.Thus HR Will certainly be acknowledged as one of the prime and vital verticles.

Thanks

Bijay

From India, Vadodara
Hello Sir,

I indeed understood the point you made about keeping the staff engaged and motivated to take that one extra step to reach the miles...

Many of the HRs have been doing so for considerable period of time... But since we are opting for change, this is what I suggest is to try to map the work...

Again by that I do not mean to say that we need to put everything into numbers... But this will also help us understand where is the problem...

Secondly, as I stated in my personal example... I have developed a good rapport with my staff, they know what to do and fortunately I never had to face the challenges of change management...

But in order to convince the management that this is needed so that they can focus better takes pain much more than we think... At the end, they appreciate your idea but do not implement it, may be because we never say -

"If you can give us a budget of say X rs., I will give you 50% more engaged employee which will work with more efficiency and dedication which will lead to a rise of 30% in your profits"

Honestly, none of the HR will be able to claim so.... not because we are weak in arithmetic but because we deal with human... as you already said...

But its like, we all know the little secret to interviews - "Speak what they wish to hear" is what I propose to do...

If the management is used to seeing numbers and do numerical analysis, we should try to map something in similar fashion....

Ofcourse there can be many other better ways... This was just one proposal put forth... No offense.... :-)

From India, Mumbai
Ankita's point is is right about the sad fact that the HR department is always sidelined compared to other departments in most companies, and I pick only one of the reasons for this discussion, as there could be many reasons that can contribute to this.

I have experienced someone telling me that HR is observed as a cost center and we have to cut away a certain portion of our profits to kept essential support services like - HR, and Administration going. For obvious reasons the gentleman who was telling me this was an PhD from the Wharton School of Business - a specialist in Finance and one who also taught Finance at the prestigious IIM (C). He was the MD of the company I was associated with. He was by nature a fine gentleman, so I argued and when I got an opportunity I cashed in on an opportunity and then asked my boss what do you have to say about this.

I'll narrate the case to make my point. It dates back to the year 1997, all activities around the world were centered on or around Y2K. Everyone was anxious, but some players were busy making tools that will handle this issue. They were carrying out trials after sufficient R&D, however, they wouldn't get a real time environment to try out their product. While they got busy with their POC engagements(Proof of Concept) the next thing they had to think of is to have programmers with good COBOL coding skills and also ones who had knowledge of working on mainframes. Our principles made this request to us. I seized this opportunity and was able to align about 14 people, all experienced season mainframe pro's. Through with the initial rounds of interviews they decided to engage all of them, offers were made for assignments and moving over to the US, and paper work for visa also commenced. I raised an invoice billing them for our professional charges for enabling them get resources of this kind, and demanded a pretty handsome 10% of CTC on the offer made. It went through some discussion like yes... no... too much... think it over... etc., but I refused to give in, and finally it was agreed with a clause that they will pay this to us back in 12 equal installments, thereby securing their interests too that they can hold back making inward remittance should some one jump the ship after reaching the US and take a counter offer. We took this risk, and thankfully all of them stayed longer than a year. some of them have stayed back permanently there becoming green card holders. It was at this point of time that I went our MD and asked him, aren't HR people earners too. He acknowledged it and so the status we enjoyed as HR people was unbelievably good. I was treated on par with all the other delivery teams even when not being a revenue fetching department.

It's here that you see some of the well known companies who work on high volume, high value delivery, the role played and the status HR holds is unbelievably good.

I'd like to go t the next point that Ankita has brought out, "Have we not seen that many companies just bring aboard any person in the seat of HR whereas they check for proper experience and qualification when it comes to marketing and finance as well as operations?" This is absolutely valid. While we all should agree in comparison with the other professions HR is still in the nascent stage, but gaining grounds quickly. It's true and natural therefore that the one's who enter the profession early were from the other functions, ones who were good communicators, presenters, or socially well placed etc., with little of no knowledge on the subject, who would occupy the seat and carry out all the orders of the boss from hire-retire, all at the whims and fancy of the boss and higher ups.

Thanks to the emergence of IT more and more things began to change, however, there are still places like the manufacturing sector which practices Industrial Relations and Personal Management as it is statutory, though they have to take care of Welfare too so they have a Manager IR (at the level of the Labour, Discipline, Productivity, Trade Union Negotiation, etc as subjects) Manager - Personal (whose main activity would be to take care of Supervisory level people) and another would be a Welfare Officer for general welfare, recreation etc. People who hold these responsibilities wield great command and respect. When people with this sort of a background come over to IT, they find their management style doesn't work here, and so they have to change things around. It's in this context that I have to say that some companies particularly more in India we fall into a slot which is neither here nor there, and so the treatment. There are also instances that people who retire from the armed forces too tried their hand on getting into the private sector especially IT, but very few made the mark.

Therefore to sum it up, I think the days ahead will see changes happening, provided, we as people in HR can show that we can add value even if we are not revenue generators...some thought on this would be..

Be the Change Agent

You have a rupee and I have one. we exchange it with each other. We still have a rupee each. This is transaction. I have an idea you have an idea. We exchange, now both of have two ideas each, this is transformation.

In our home we enjoy great relationships, we are in a constant communication mode, we care for each other, we discuss various things about the family, and also issues outside our family, the society, the environment we prevail, the people, right up to politics and governance. While most of this part of the relationship is transformational, because we prevail in issueless moments, thought we must admit some by nature are transactional issues too. This doesn't dilute the relationship at all. We invest heavily in issue less moments, therefore we create a transformational relationship in which we all grow and so the relationship grows to make it life-bondage one.

Come to work isn't the same. Relationships @ work are merely transactional, however, there is a huge opportunity to make it transformational, if you can only volunteer to be the initiator, guide, advisor, coach and allow the other to become the executor of the task, you may be able to transform the other person @ work. Let everything that passes by you gain value, let every life that crosses your life be changed for the better. Add value to every moment. Add value to every relationship, try transforming every transaction, by adding value to it. Be an 'Alchemist' In helping others become better you become better. let everything become better in your presence. Leadership is in evolving transactional opportunities into transformational opportunities. Be the change agent. Keep going.. and keep helping people to keep growing. That's the role to grow into as HR people in an organization, because the value you add at this point of time though intangible, is absolutely valuable.

I wish acknowledges the thoughts and ideas shared by the others too wrt to this query.

From India, Hyderabad
To the HR fraternity
We can cry till the cows come back home, but things will not change easily. We have to keep going on, doing good work after good work and earn our status as professionals, no one will give it to us.
Our forefather's and great leadership enable India earn independence, it wasn't granted.
Hope this puts things in the right perspective.
Best wishes.

From India, Hyderabad
Hello Sir,
Thank you sir, to add up to my pointers with your extensive experience... I think now the do make sense...
Exactly, we need to be a change agent...
I always believe that HR should be just like a catalyst - increase the efficiency without disturbing the whole process...
And unless the HR fraternities start believing that they're contributing, they'd never be able to convince other's of same...
Just happen to see a picture which I would like to share - talk about the different ways different group of people will perceive the functions of HR...

From India, Mumbai

Attached Images
File Type: jpg hr mgr.jpg (38.8 KB, 60 views)

Main thing is that what we should do for Image Building within organization and out side of organization means in external environment. Why I raise this because it is decreasing day by day.
Now I would request you to share what steps should be taken.......Most of the company has CEO or Plant head Production or Engineer Background and they always feel HR doing nothing but enjoying all the facilities of company. One of My Boss ( Ex VP from One of best manufacturing MNC) Has clearly told me I never like HR people ...They are doing only Politics in the company. I answered/ discussed with him but could not break HR image from his mind.
Somehow we are also responsible....
Pls share your experience and Action both ....

From India, New Delhi
Dr. Ashish,

As already conveyed, the sad fact is HR never speaks numbers...

There are people who feel that HR don't speak numbers because we (as HR) are afraid that things would come out that we don't work or something like that...

My boss and my colleagues feel I don't work most of times.... So? So what nothing....

Firstly, we need to train ourselves that just because someone has a perception towards us, we are not that...

Slowly what my CEO realised is that I am keeping an eye on the sales and performance, tracking it, and ensuring that nothing is cheated on - like for example, people have a habit to take the credit for the sales that they made even before the amount is deposited in our account... And our sir trusted them.... Now those things are getting reflected week on week....

He believes I don't work, but I make him realize, I have to -

1) Count the number of leaves each one takes, every time someone applies for leave...

2) I need to check if two people in the same department are taking leaves together and if so, consult the concerned department head.

3) I make him realize that I have to check on the bills before they go to accounts...

4) I have to ensure that people fill the voucher to claim the out-of-pocket expense rather than just going and taking a lumpsum amount from admin....

5) I make him realize that I have to keep a track on the late attendance and performance management...

6) I have to see to it that things are properly filed in the right time...

7) I have to ensure that we are complying by all the statutory norms proposed by the govt.

Yes, I am most of the times found reading and enhancing my knowledge on net.... But that is because HR has to work isolately.... We can publish and declare that we are eyeing your performance or tracking your records....

Yes, we are the police in the office, but not the bad cops, if we are the one who corrects the unacceptable behavior of staff, we are the one who'd ask them if they are facing any difficulty....

Above all, in order that each one realizes what HR does, I would also like to suggest a game of 2 days with HR - where the CEO or any of the departmental head can spend 2 days in the HR department and find out what work the HR does on daily basis...

And yes, who would not love to enjoy the free time they have the way they like???? Not just the HR.... I have seen sales people in my firm play pool games online when they have free time... All of us do some or other Time pass in the day.... even in the paid hours.... HR is not exception.... Most of HR's is a mental work and they do need mental peace most often than others....

I would like seniors to share their ideas to help HR change the perception of the management towards them...

From India, Mumbai
Ankita Ji, Very right you are I would also request to senior HR to share their views and ideas....
From India, New Delhi
With highest regards to the profession, and professionalism, I'd make this submission.



I'm afraid, I disagree with this thinking of adding "value" tot he organization, as this doesn't need one to be a qualified HR, and educated person even handling Administration can do this, in fact, in the days gone by some of these functions were performed by confidential secretaries.

I would like to draw attention to the fact that there is a lo of difference between HR Administration, Operational HR, a HR Generalist and A HR Strategist.

I share with the following links to help gain a little more understanding on this aspect and to put things in clear perspective, not only for now, but to also remove illusions about what HR is and isn't..

April 27, 2008 CITEHR Link: Core Roles of HR

https://www.citehr.com/249685-what-d...rnlist-hr.html

April 27, 2008 CITEHR Link : Difference between HR and Corporate HR

https://www.citehr.com/23069-differe...porate-hr.html

HR is about people, which is the core of an organization and its ... The choice for HR between strategic or administrative functions is not an either/or .... strategies will require different skills in personal and this is where HR needs to be

http://www.maverickec.com/index_file...y%20epulse.pdf

Operational vs Strategic HR Focus By Tony Deblauwe

Operational vs Strategic HR Focus - Work Babble

Steve Denning, author of The Leader’s Guide to Radical Management: Reinventing the Workplace for the 21st Century outlined the disconnect between HR focus and executive and strategic business imperatives:

How Strategic HR Wins The Keys To The C-Suite - Forbes

Trust this will keep the discussion engaged further.

Best wishes.

From India, Hyderabad

This discussion thread is closed. If you want to continue this discussion or have a follow up question, please post it on the network.
Add the url of this thread if you want to cite this discussion.






About Us Advertise Contact Us
Privacy Policy Disclaimer Terms Of Service



All rights reserved @ 2020 Cite.Co™