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Thread Started by #Dr. Jogeshwar mahanta

"When P V Narasimha Rao was removed from the party presidency after losing the 1996 elections, his finance minister, Manmohan Singh, did not defend him. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion", Singh publicly commented. Under UPA-I, seven tainted ministers were inducted into the government. He defended this, saying there was a presumption of innocence till guilt is proved. Caesar's wife did not play on his conscience at the time. Today, the prime minister has to ask himself: Who is accountable for trying to taint the institution of the CVC? An honest answer can help correct the wrong. A not-so-honest answer may further dilute the Teflon coating of Caesar's wife. Caesar's wife may not know where to hide. "
Read more: Caesar's Wife, Teflon-Coated - The Times of India Caesar's Wife, Teflon-Coated - The Times of India
5th March 2011 From India, Delhi
SC found the appraisal by the Prime Minister and Home Minister in selecting PJ Thomas as CVC was not just,fair and reasonable.I think,more often than not the appraisals on pay hike or other wise even in corporate world are termed as unjust,unfair and unreasonable.
How serious is this malady? Is it limited to grumblers only or even devoted personnel have this grievance?
Inputs please.
5th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Hi Dr. Mahanta,

I completely agree with you on the decision taken by Mr. PM in selecting PJ Thomas as CVC, but isn't it the case all around.

If you know than our dear President also had a case pending against her, and that too a serious scam related. As per the report in Times of India, many of our MPs have criminal cases against them, and all of them are not appointed or selected by MR. PM.

Sadly, This is the political scenario and has nothing to do with unfair practices, it is the fault of us, all the citizens of India who have failed to select a correct person to lead them, its our ignorance and our "I don't care attitude".

If you consider this, how many of us raised our voices against the petrol price hike when we knw our money has been mis utilised by the So called leaders of this country, be it CWG scam, 2g scam or the stacked money in the swiss bank account.

Everything is unfair, and without our voices all this will go nowhere.

And about unfair practices in companies....I would like to hear your views on this article i composed yesterday. <link updated to site home>


5th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Thanks dear for paying serious attention to the topic.Regarding selection of Thomas your views would have been correct had it would have been promotion. Here there are 3 names. Other 2 are stainless as per record and Thomas is an accused/suspect though he is not proved to be guilty.
Now SC sets a new standard for selection.I am afraid, jealous persons may drag honest people to controversy to deprive them of their due.We will have to wait and see if this standard sustains.
2.I will look your article on company practices carefully and then I will comment.
Thanks again.
5th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Archna ji.Read your link article depicting the malady.Every one of us is craving for a just. world but it is yet a distant cry.First of all we need necessary vocabulary to discuss on it. You can very well imagine the scarcity of vocabulary from a poll result of "The Constitution of India" community.
Do legal qualification and experience necessarily ensure judiciousness?
Created by: Jogeshwar
5 votes (55%)
Yes(option for legal professionals).
0 votes (0%)
Yes(option for others).
3 votes (33%)
No(option for legal professionals).
1 vote (11%)
No(otion for others).
9 votes total.
is judiciousness even a word???
No(option for legal professionals)
6th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Dr. JM,
That last post was interesting... True everyone of us is craving for a just world... but the sense and perception of justice differs from person-to-person and also for the same set of folks, from time-to-time...
What does this leave us with? A democracy running on 'oxygen' due to the failure of the legislature and the executive, undergoing a real slow-paced judicial surgery!!!
8th March 2011 From United States, Daphne
Archana , Mahata and all others..... u might tend to think me as conservative in out look but the fact remains that this is a HR forum and not for Govt- OR politics related issues...... i hv the highest regard for MMS for the qualfns he possess and the career path he had and i am proud that he is our PM but equally pained with CVC and 2-G issues ...i still maintain that there are other forums to discuss these issues... let us help maintain this as a purely HR forum ... thanx a lot...........
8th March 2011 From India, Bangalore
Hi Ramamurthy..
Mr. PM is one of the best human being i have ever met, but yes there are certain decision even he regrets.
And dear we know this is an HR forum and if you read our posts clearly there is a discussion taking place on how just, fair and reasonable appraisals are.
Appraisals in every field is related to HR, in fact all these problems are related to Organisations and HR. Think about it.
8th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Ms. Archna thanks for response to Mr. Ramamurthyn. Infact you have shared a link related to fair appriasals.

Dear Mr. Ramamurthy,

Whenever so called 'white collar citizens' (my own words) like us see something involved with white dressed politician, we try to escape and there the problem exist. It is appreciated that how well Dr. Jogeshwar has liked the just, fair and reasonable appraisals with social issues. So what, these are the cases of our everyday life say it organizations, families, communities or our own realtionships.

By the way every human being in political in its nature and in own way...child does politics with mother.

My view: like the way we think about our politicians and government and their selection for anything or any step should be in congruency with the societal needs, in the same way role of organizational members is vested with the responsibility all its stakeholders. It is like all citizens are stakeholders of our PM or any other political party or government agencies and moreover the society itself is the stakeholder of its members like you and me. If my DNA don't have the elements of just, fair and reasonable practices how can I ensure it for the society or organizations.

and Mr. Ramamurthyn, sorry to say, you said something about purity of HR forum. I do not think linking HR practices with social issue spoils the sanctity of the discussion or forum, infact they are always linked. (if it gets lingered and centralized only to the political parties then yes I can object)

I do not have any intention to hurt anyone, wanted to put my views on this. Please confront and correct me if I am wrong.
8th March 2011 From India, Mumbai
thanx to Dr Mahanta, Archana, and Rahul Thapar. My concern was to say that once a thread is started with a polical content, many wud jump in with downtrodden political views which r not required for this forum. U can chek numerous forum / msg boards in other sites to know what i am saying. To run a society, government or an establishment with a thorough professional approach and corporate like goals is an ideal situation for which I will also stand for....... i wish and hope everybody carries the amount of maturity u hv all shown.....
9th March 2011 From India, Bangalore
"My concern was to say that once a thread is started with a polical content, many wud jump in with downtrodden political views which r not required for this forum."
Means many can not extract seeds from chaff. Right?
9th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Dr. JM,

I am sure you agree that the scale does have a bearing on the nature of judgment. In a democracy, as in a round table, it is typically 1-person-1-vote. That is seldom the case in appraisals. Hence, you might be popular with the masses, but that doesn't mean that the appraisal is correct.

It is human tendency to tend to like someone who agrees with you, and it is human tendency to make believe that what you are doing is right and true. Further, it is a norm that everyone thinks he is making lesser mistakes than he really is making... So, the root of the problem is the subjectivity in such decisions and the lack of training to decide 'correctly'.

Hope that clarifies a little.

We are developing material based on the Bhagvad Gita, by applying systems thinking, to help managers orient thinking to the truth and understand how factors interact.

Your views are your interpretation of what you feel is true and your actions are often governed by that.

The art of political sciences is a simple combination of juggling information across time. Its like chess... The only difference is that you can see the movements of the other player in chess, while in politics, you might only see the frontline...

Back to where we were... Does it really make sense to discuss this, given the limitations on the inputs and the potential limitations the effects of such a discussion can have? The guys who cast their votes are often people we cannot reach...

10th March 2011 From United States, Daphne
1."Hence, you might be popular with the masses, but that doesn't mean that the appraisal is correct."
Popularity and judiciousness do not necessarily go together as management and justice necessarily do not go together.
"Does it really make sense to discuss this, given the limitations on the inputs and the potential limitations the effects of such a discussion can have? The guys who cast their votes are often people we cannot reach..."
It depends upon whether or not citehr community ventures to explore the possibility of a just world .
10th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Your first observation is the same as I was saying...
As for the second:::Its like talking about the Tsunami and the Earthquake in Japan... Exploring the possibility of a just and better world cannot be everyone's role... else our machinery will collapse (some say it has already, but I am not here to debate on that issue)... :-)
11th March 2011 From United States, Daphne
"Exploring the possibility of a just and better world cannot be everyone's role... else our machinery will collapse (some say it has already, but I am not here to debate on that issue)... :-)"
Maaricha thought if I join Ravan I will be killed by Ram.If I do not join Ravan then I will be killed by him. So it is better to die in Ram's hand.So he joined Ravan.Right?
12th March 2011 From India, Delhi
Too many cooks spoil the soup... So, its best to leave it to one good cook... It might be funny, but if we were to poke our noses into every activity done in our environment, we know what could happen... :-)
Unless we are talking of removing the cook and bringing in another! :-) That could even imply a revolution. I am not sure if that is what you want...
Either ways, I don't see you in Maaricha's role... :-) Unlike him, we all will continue to live both ways... :-) Atleast, for the near future.
12th March 2011 From United States, Daphne
[Statutory warning - This post of mine is not related to the topic, rather about thread]
This is another round of discussion that I have thoroughly enjoyed. There are many like me, who would have read this thread but did not participate. A reply to such posts does not require mere research but maturity in understanding.
Many thanks to everyone who have participated here. People like me, who are yet to develop a view, stands facilitated. We don’t depend on the media to form our views. It’s the honest and developed opinions from expert that guides us.
Just as they say, "an opinion should be a result of a thought and not the absence of it" ! Thank you for providing us this food for thought. I would continue to look forward to such brilliant discussions.
(Cite Contribution)
12th March 2011 From India, Mumbai
I have read this thread with interest. As I am not interested in what politicians do, I will not comment on the particular issue of CVC. By nature politics is not for honest people, because such people will not be able to survive for long without compomising some of their principles in the larger interest.

To answer the question "How often appraisals are just,fair and reasonable?", I have NOT done any survey. From my working experience of over 40 years both in India (5 years) and in the UK (both in the industry and the academia), I can say it all depends upon the organisation policy and the individuals doing the performance appraisal (PA). Let me elaborate that statement with a couple of examples.

In one of the organisations I worked, the pay rise was based on the PA results. First the appraisal of all the Head Quarter's staff was done and then the staff at other sites after the bosses had been assessed. As the company had a policy that only the 5% of the staff could be given the top rating, it did not matter how well one, at the bottom of the rung, had done the work (s)he could not be given the 'Outstanding' rating. My boss instructed me not to give 'Outstanding' rating to any one.

In another organisation a manager was prejudiced against Asians and no one from that group got good appraisal. However, once he quit the organisation, staff at the supervisory level got promoted and one even became the area manager within 5 years of that manager quitting.

I am sure that, even in India, people coming from different regions than where they are working will have faced such a situation. Similarly, civilians working in defence establishments face such discrimiation when compared to staff who are active or retired defence persons.

Have a nice day

16th March 2011 From United Kingdom

I am responding on request/provocation!

Before I start, I feel discussion so far is good and valuable. It attempted dealing the the concept of appraisal but lost in "political" situations. Since I am, by choice, away from "politics" in organizations or at the national level, I will refrain from from commenting in that way but I do believe HR and Appraisals are at least equally if not more needed there!

However, my experience and convictions regarding Appraisals show (not as a sweeping generalization):

1. In industry I found more ritualistic approach to appraisals.

2. I found that at a conceptual level many senior executives also were LIMITED.

3. I found that there was little training provided to Appraisers, least to the appraisees.

4. The aims and objectives of Appraisals are often unclear to those who administratively handle the process as also to those who are subject matter of the process.

5. More often than not, culturally, organizations are unable to underscore "objectivity" in appraisals. Measurability of KRAs and KPAs leave much to be desired.

6. Linking the Appriasal process to, Training & Development needs/appropriate actions, Deployment actions for greater Organizational Effectiveness suffer from low committment, inadequacy of conceptualization skills and Low KSA quotient!

To answer the question "How often appraisals are just,fair and reasonable?", the answer in one word would be "Rarely!" I have observed quite often that the Appraisal Process" receives more compliance in form than in substance.

To end, I repeat that this is NOT a generalization. I have also worked with conceptually excellent Appraisal systems that are executed with equal finnesse`.

My two bit worth for your consideration!



March 16, 2011

16th March 2011 From India, Pune
Dear All,

As Mr. Peter Drucker, once famously said that Managers believes themselves to be God, during appraisals. They can make or break the career of aspiring employees. The same hold true till today.

The basic fallacy of appraisal at least in India starts with improper Goal Setting which in turn effect everything else. Further I strongly believe that Functions like HR should not have the Goal Related appraisals since most of our goals are subjective like Employee Relations, GH.

So, when the base is not right the process cannot do justice.

I would like to end by saying that members have commented on the political nature, but the facts remains politics is everywhere and we should be interested and involved. The political class have far greater impact on business and their very existence. Take a look at new items falling under Excise, Service Tax in diagnostics Tests. We cannot remain insular. Yes, political affiliations should not be brought into discussion frame to keep the discussions neutral.

16th March 2011 From India, Thane
Dear All.............
I am responding to Ms. Archana post ........"Fair Practices in Appraisals and promotions"

I dont want to comment on POLITICS because I HATE POLITICS let it be at NATIONAL LEVEL or at ORGANISATION LEVEL . Even many organisations are suffering from INTERNAL DIRTY POLITICS leading to GROUPISM or formation of INFORMAL GROUPs......end result is nothing but INSTABILITY, NON PERFORMANCE, IRREPARABLE LOSS, LOSS OF REPUTATION/IMAGE and more.....

Ms. Archana....
Whatever you had posted is the FACT'S. To my knowledge, nothing is 100% PERFECT in this world except ALMIGHTY. There is not even a single company in this world FREE FROM ISSUES RELATED TO PERFORMANCE APPRAISALS besides there are so many EMPLOYEE RELATED ISSUES.

We try our best to help employees to get their BEST PAY but again, it is the MANAGEMENT who takes FINAL DECISION or FINAL CALL based on various factors, on which we don't have any control, as the management feels that THE BALL SHOULD BE KEPT ROLLING or THE GAME SHOULD BE ON

Examples which you had narrated is THE BITTER FACT and DARK SIDE OF THIS WORLD. Many employees at LOWER LEVEL are victims of such HOPELESS employees playing a vital role at HIGHER LEVELS. I really don't know how to address these SELFISH employees.

Such incidents are helping us to eliminate words like LOYALTY, HONESTY, SINCERITY because they never made many to earn their LEGAL STAKE. Many employees are suffering but how many are feeling their AGONY.


a) because WE FAIL TO MEET EMPLOYEE DEMANDS/REQUIREMENT which is also PROPORTIONAL to XYZ COMPANIES TURNOVER RATIO, as most of the companies are concentrating on PROFIT in comparison with PREVIOUS YEAR, but they(companies) HESITATE TO PAY LITTLE MORE and GENERATE A LITTLE MORE, IN RETURN. There is a huge difference between LITTLE and A LITTLE.

b) PARTIALITY, JEALOUSY, REVENGE kind ATTITUDE .......Appraisals revealing BIASED OUTPUT, naturally employees will suffer.

On the other hand, OUR(EMPLOYEE & EMPLOYER) DEMANDS ARE ENDLESS. How many are living SIMPLE LIFE. How many had embraced SIMPLICITY. Every one wants to earn more and more and more...Hence forth UNFAIR PRACTICES ARE BORN & PRACTICED EFFECTIVELY, CORRUPTION IS PROMOTED and LOT MORE UNFAIR THINGS ARE HAPPENING.

We should also focus on certain supernatural things like CURSE(which has devastating results), DO GOOD BE GOOD and help everyone to understand that "AS LONG AS WE LIVE IN THIS WORLD, THINK ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE OF LESS FORTUNE THAN US"

Let me end my post by giving you an example, indeed it is appreciated and accepted by the world.......but very few are practically implementing it.

"ALEXANDER THE GREAT, who ruled most parts of the world said, revealed his LAST WISH, after my death, please bury my whole body leaving my hands visible to all in a peculiar position, as if some one is seeking something from god......his followers requested his ruler to brief them about his LAST WISH. His EXCELLENCY REPLIED........................................... .................................................. ........................I WANTED TO PROVE EVERYONE THAT THOUGH I RULED THIS WORLD BUT I AM LEAVING THIS WORLD EMPTY HANDED..........LET PEOPLE SEE WHAT I AM CARRYING WITH ME AFTER MY DEATH"

Forgive me if i am/was wrong..

May ALMIGHTY bless us all and show us the right path.

With profound regards
16th March 2011 From India, Chennai
Appraisals should be continuous and not the "once in a year" ritual that it is now.Organizations have been doing it to take stock of things, evaluate performance, give feedback to the concerned employee and reward or withhold reward, depending on the situation.

It is some kind of a reality check for the employee also. Every human being yearns for recognition and appreciation.So to that extent, this exercise serves a very useful purpose.

Anything that gets measured, gets done is a maxim that has stood the test of time.Even appraisals are a measurement in that sense.

Most of the time, it is just , fair and reasonable provided it has adhered to the time honoured tenets of equity, fairplay and justice. If the appraisal was interactive, meaningful and took cognizance of the employee's inputs and views, then it is fair to assume that the outcome would have been positive, without leaving a lingering aftertaste of unpleasantness and vindictiveness.

For this exercise to succeed, the manager has to be very objective, rational, spiritually evolved, high on inter personal skills, full of empathy and a firm believer in Management by Objectives.

There is no room for vendetta, settling personal scores,ventilating personal frustrations and general bad mouthing. It will only breed contempt and ill will.

Administered properly it can generate tremendous goodwill, foster efficiency and enhance organizational effectiveness
16th March 2011 From United States, Hudson
I take this opportunity to introduce Mr. Sridhar Subramaniam. He is the author to 'Are You Listening, Prime Minister?' A Coffee Table Analyst's Perspective On India's Development And Development Objectives. He considers himself as a global citizen. He is based out of Lexington. He is a voracious reader and a respected author. We thank him for joining us for this discussion
(Cite Contribution)
16th March 2011 From India, Mumbai
Thank You, (Cite Contribution) for that wonderful and pleasant introduction.Joining an erudite forum like this is a my privilege too.I sincerely appreciate your untiring efforts to promote this forum. We are all contributing in our own small way to what Peter Senge would call "Global Consciousness" !
Warm Regards
Sridhar Subramaniam

16th March 2011 From United States, Hudson
So are we heading towards status quo or change? If towards change then for better or worse?
22nd March 2011 From India, Delhi
In order to go higher, we need to go down a little till we realize there is no choice but to bounce back :-)
23rd March 2011 From United States, Daphne
"In order to go higher, we need to go down a little till we realize there is no choice but to bounce back :-)" Please elaborate
23rd March 2011 From India, Delhi
Our values are declining right now... we will turnaround sometime somewhere! And that will be when we realize that we cannot go further.. need to bounce back...
The Mahabharat says that revolution occurs when the ratio of good to evil is to the tune of 5:100... I guess we are not there yet!
23rd March 2011 From United States, Daphne
Has Maruti suzuki at Manesar reached this ratio of good:evil =5:100? A collective wisdom is necessary for future guidance..
23rd July 2012 From India, Delhi
Just a year back this was a vibrant topic but now when it is a burning issue after Maruti Suzuki happening I see no interest at all. What is the matter?
24th July 2012 From India, Delhi
Riot at Maruti Suzuki plant:
So far the happening has not raised the issue of just, fair and reasonableness.
Riot is not occurring for the first time.Governments already have well accepted steps-Investigation,prosecution,trial and if the charges are proved then conviction and sentencing.
It is your best guess.
The flawed dynamics of human relation angle is disproved swiftly.
Caste slur did not trigger violence at Maruti's Manesar plant: Probe - Times Of India
Then where is the role of human resource management and more so when no collective wisdom could evolve here? Is there any for future to prevent such happenings?
26th July 2012 From India, Delhi
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