Dinesh Divekar
Business Mentor, Consultant And Trainer
Ukmitra
Business Development, Employee Relations,
Ash Mathew
Recruitments, Training`
Rajanassociates
Legal Counsel
Raj Kumar Hansdah
Shrm, Od, Hrd, Pms
Malikjs
Gm (hr)
K C S Kutty
Labour Laws
Jeeni
Assistant Human Resource Manager
Ritedarong
Compliance Expertise In Labour Laws &
I.N.JHA
Proffessional
R A PATIL
Manger-hr
+4 Others

Thread Started by #jeeni

Dear All,

Greetings!

My heartiest wishes for DIWALI.

May be god will give you a lot of wonderful coming years.

I had a concern about the human resource prctice in big Brands.

Today itself i have come across a situation where i am not comfortable with my company human resource practices.

We had come across a situation which i want to share with all of you.

In my company an employee who is working with us for last 25 years, had commited a mistake. He is working in a credit department and due to some reasons he is not able to follow up for the bills worth of 40 lakhs with the ministry which shows his negligence in duties.

He had a clean record on his name in 25 years.

Company had not even issued a single warning letter on his name. In this incident also, company had not issued any memo but directly suspended him for 7 days ( Standing order of company is for 6 days).

In continuation, company had issued him a chargesheet asking for explantaion within 48 hrs.

My question is that whether it was right to suspend an employee directly only in one negligence, whether we have not to conduct enquiry or other procedures to be followed.

If a person is suspended for a misconduct, Can we issue a chargesheet for the same and writing that your suspension will be extended etc.

The only problem is in our management(General manager where they are ready to throw out an employee in a second. Our general manager does not speal prperly to employees.

IF we say that big brands have good human resource practice or they say the employees are their assests only by giving welfare of LTA, Medicals etc. Whether is it right.

What should be the procedure adopted in this case.

As a junior most person, its to difficult to accept this decison that the management had taken.

In my previous post also i had writeen that my HR Manager knows only to manage by hook or by crook. She just know what happens in one company itself as she is baby of this comapny.

I would appreciate, if you suggest me the correct procedure and the measures that this employee can take against the amangement.

Its so painful to see things like this that every second day you are suspending employees and their is no boday who can stand for them as unions are management friendly asthey know only to do their benefits only.(This employee is in Executive cadre).

Would appreciate early responses.

Regards
Ranjeet
9th October 2009 From India, New Delhi
Dear Ranjeet,

Let us analyse the issue step by step.

a) "In my company an employee who is working with us for last 25 years, had commited a mistake. He is working in a credit department and due to some reasons he is not able to follow up for the bills worth of 40 lakhs with the ministry which shows his negligence in duties"

Comments: - 40 lakhs is a too bigger amount. Why he did not follow up with the client? The reasons need to be investigated. Law does not take into account the length of service of anybody.

b) "He had a clean record on his name in 25 years.

Company had not even issued a single warning letter on his name. In this incident also, company had not issued any memo but directly suspended him for 7 days ( Standing order of company is for 6 days)
"

Comments: - Law does not take into account past clean record especially considering the severity of the mistake. May be that so far he could be doing misappropriation of funds but he was caught now.

Suspension pending enquiry is perfectly all right. If the accused is not suspended there is every possibility of his tampering with the records and evidence. To avoid this, management has suspended him. During this period, he is eligible for subsistence allowance.

c) "In continuation, company had issued him a chargesheet asking for explantaion within 48 hrs.

My question is that whether it was right to suspend an employee directly only in one negligence, whether we have not to conduct enquiry or other procedures to be followed."

Comments: - Before issuing the charge sheet, company should have ordered enquiry. Charge sheet can be issued directly only for smaller offences. Not for the offence of this magnitude. Charge sheet comes after enquiry and not before the enquiry.

d) "IF we say that big brands have good human resource practice or they say the employees are their assests only by giving welfare of LTA, Medicals etc. Whether is it right."

Comments: - It is not a question iof big or small brand. Discipline is a foundation of any organisation. To create a culture of discipline, instances of this kind need to be handled with iron hand. It sends a message to one and all that what fate, corrupt or negligent employees can invite. More than its application, essence of law lies in its deterrence. Mr Ranjeet you may note that India has more problems because of lack of discipline and not because of lack of intelligence or intelligent people



Secondly justice is also foundation of any organisation. Your management must ensure that justice is done to the accused employee and to the organisation also.

e) "Its so painful to see things like this that every second day you are suspending employees and their is no boday who can stand for them as unions are management friendly asthey know only to do their benefits only.(This employee is in Executive cadre)"

Comments: - Managers must think from head and not from heart. Head Vs Heart is old debate and old challenge to the managers. You are pained because you are thinking from your head. Progress happens when issues are handled dispassionately or without involving emotions. I have read it in newspaper that an American employee was fired since she came 43 minutes late after the lunch break.

The accused employee can defend himself by citing evidence of the steps that he took to recover the money. Did he keep his superiors informed of his inability to recover the outstanding amount etc. Notwithstanding this, his culpability is still established since he suppressed the material facts from his superiors. In these times of recession, there is a great crunch of capital. Employees need to put up aggressive efforts to release the chocked up working capital.

Your management needs to look at the incident rather than person. Investigation of the incident can raise the following questions:

a) Was the Manager of the employee in question knew of this credit? What steps he took to guide this employee?

b) Why this issue was not discussed in the weekly or fortnightly credit review meeting? If discussed, then what was the outcome?

c) After how much time period this credit was discovered? Why it was not brought in the monthly reconciliation by Accounts or audit department?

Answers to these questions would reveal culpability of the higher officials as well. Merely punishing to this employee would tantamount to finding a scapegoat allowing the seniors to go scot free. .

I am not legal expert. I have given my opinions based on my experience. However, Mr RN Khola and Mr JS Malik are the right persons to have clarifications from the legal point of view.

Thanks,

Dinesh V Divekar








9th October 2009 From India, Bangalore
Mr Divekar,
Your reply is perfectly right. The employee in question is suspended pending enquiry. He is served with a charge sheet. He has an opportunity
to reply to the charge sheet and defend him in the enquiry to be conducted subsequently. He is also entitled for subsistance allowance. In case of a grave misconduct the employer has the right to suspend an employee immediately even without giving the charge sheet. Charge sheet can be framed only after conducting a preliminary investigation to assess the extent of the omission or commission.
If the suspended employee proves his innocence in the domestic enquiry, his suspension would be revoked and he can join back on duty with full salary (arrears) from the date of his suspension.
Discipline is a must. Financial discipline is utmost essential.
I fully agree with your view that the problems in India are due to
indiscipline and not lack of intelligence. ( I may be a bit outdated for the youngsters !)

9th October 2009 From India, Madras
yes , suspension is not a punishment.the charged employee is kept under suspension
1.pending investigation, gathering of all documents etc to frame charges against the charged employee by mgt
2. the charged employee should not tamper/influence/ destroy the documents in the office
3 the charged employee need keep himself ready for the enquiry
4 personal enqury with charged employee need to be completed
5 once investigation is over , and the charged employee,s suspension can be revoked
6 the charge shhet/ fullenquiry, and findings , then awarding of suitable punishment as per org rules
murali
9th October 2009 From India, Chennai
Hi,
Mr Divekars' views are perfectly right. I only gathered the impression from original post that the suspension was not pending enquiry, but as a punishment without affording him an opportunity of explaining his position. I hope, it was not.
I.N.JHA
10th October 2009
Dear All,

Thanks for the responses,

Following are the ponit that i would like to share with you:_

1-Suspension without subsitence allowance is justifiable by law or not.

2- Suspension only is 1 misconduct is justifiable with law and principle of natural justice.

3- Suspending an employee without any formal enquiry is justifiable.

4- To chargesheet an employee directly asking for explanation even you are not going to conduct domestic enquiry is justifiable.

5-It is not a part of misaapropriate use of fund, it is just that bills of worth 40 lakhs was not forwarded to concern ministry on time. Discipline includes a lot of things.

Do you think that it is a good human resource practice where your employee thinks that their jobs are insecure.

Whether we should take steps with iron hand where people will work till the time bosses were there.

Whether we should encourage such culture where people are working with a feeling of insecurity and in a tense sitution.

When we say Human Resouces, we are here to take care of our employees and to driven a good culture in the organisation.

I had gone through a book of Mr.Khera "You Can Win", where he has Fear Motivation are only temporary. It work till the time the fear factor or boss was there.

I personally beleive in the culture in an organisation where employees look forward to come on the job.

Please answer my queries, 2 suspension in a week are we going in a right direction.

throwing out an employee or takin their resignation is right or wrong-May be it is a good plicy to reduce your heads in this period of recession.

What you will day to the GM where he scolds everybdy for small things like phone was disconnected due to technical reason in between.

May be i think he does not know what is the menaing of HR. Our first value of the company is integrity, respect ...... Where is the respect for the other, where is that joy at workplace.

Again my question is it not necessary to issues warning letters in minor misconducts like absencebefore issuing chargesheet or suspending them directly is right?

2- In major misconduct, what should be the procedures one shoul follow. issure directly chargesheet without conducting enquiry.

3- Termination of an employee on the basis of audir report is justifiable.

Your responses will be highly appreciated.

Regards

Ranjeet
10th October 2009 From India, New Delhi
I agree with Mr. Dinesh - anything else I would add would only be a repetive statement of his views already mentioned.
Please understand that "HR" is a link between the Management and the Employee. Nowhere its a theory that the HR must only consider the employee side of view.
to add to this - as an employee, you will not get to hear the "complete story". Only part of the same would be revealed by the HR & Management to the others. Reason is to safeguard the employee's image to a maximum extent. This is something that employees excluding HR people in the senior level fail to understand.
Moreover - end of the day, every relationship at work, boils down to business. Its "how much has been converted to money" that counts. The relationship may exist - but "a professional work place" should be able to differentiate these two objects "Relationship / loyalty" and WORK / delivery / consistency.
10th October 2009 From India, Madras
Hi,
Mr. Divekar has rightly replied to the query. One thing to add is that suspension is of two types. Firstly as a punishment. Secondly as a tool to prevent tampering of evidence etc. Sometimes it is difficult to impose the responsibility upon a management to explain its actions and then to act. As a first aid and emergent prevention suspension could have been ordered. A viewing of the standing orders of the company would throw light on this.
regards
10th October 2009 From India, Bangalore
Dear Ranjeet,
Your concern is correct. But I guess you need to read what Mr. Dinesh wrote. He has answred all your queries, infact I guess he has answered them so perfect without any room for us to say...he he he....:o
Please go through them and ponder on his suggestion carefully and you will find a solution.
Let not emotion take over the mind so you may be able to take correct perception of the matter.
Regards
ukmitra

10th October 2009 From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
"He is working in a credit department and due to some reasons he is not able to follow up for the bills worth of 40 lakhs with the ministry which shows his negligence in duties"
If you read the line it is clear that "he is not able to follow up" and hence negligence.
I think his immediate boss should be given charge sheet first as he/she failed to let it happen.
Is it a good HR practice the answer is “NO”
Sarfaraz
10th October 2009 From India, Bangalore
Yes Ravi,
Thats because I have working experience in HR :-D:-D :-D
(You asked for this)
I would have appreciated if you read anything below those lines... will not blame you. As I mentioned - experience ^ in HR alone will teach you.

11th October 2009 From India, Madras
This is right approach, for any serious misconduct keeping under suspenstion is correct under varouis reasons so that deliquent employee will not tamper or influence evidence.Ensure that we should follow company SO correctley.
11th October 2009 From India, Bangalore
Dear The power of Suspension is reserved to the Management pending enquiry on grave charges. Rgds VS Rajan Associates Chennai Mob:98401-42164
11th October 2009 From India, Bangalore


Dear Friends,

I have read some of the detailed responses of fellow HR practitioners. I have the following advice to offer.
  • Charge Sheet or Suspension is NOT an HR practice. There is nothing right or wrong about this.
  • Managing Discipline or rather Indiscipline is a very important and sensitive function of the HR person in an organization. Ignoring indiscipline generally piles up into a messy affair which takes a lot of effort and time to sort out, at a later stage.
  • Indiscipline must be addressed with clinical promptness and precision. There is no tailor-made solution how to handle indiscipline. Solutions are situation based and need to be so addressed.
  • In this case an employee with a very long association and clean service record, is found to have not followed the proper system of following up with some clients resulting in an outstanding of Rs.40 lacs approx.
  • The management has suspended him. Now as Ranjeet has stated, he has been suspended for 7 days whereas the Standing Orders of the Co. provide for suspension of only 6 days.
  • I will safely suppose that the 6 day suspension stipulated in the Standing Orders is “Punishment” and not suspension pending enquiry.
  • There is a suggestion that the Charge Sheet should have been issued after Enquiry. If it is Domestic Enquiry that is being referred to, the suggestion is incorrect.
  • I will outline the process which needs to be followed if Disciplinary action is contemplated against an employee.
  • At the very outset let me explain that the management is at liberty to suspend, Charge Sheet or take any action it deems proper in a given situation. What matters is whether the action so taken is correct under provisions of law or not. Can you commit a murder. Yes you can, but then you got to face the consequences.
  • The correct process would be as under:
    • An employee commits an act of misconduct.
    • The management finds the act committed by him serious enough to immediately suspend him. This should be suspension pending enquiry into the matter.
    • At a later stage, after having examined the facts of the matter, the management may issue a detailed Charge Sheet.
    • It is important to impress here that the wording of the letter of suspension and later the Charge Sheet is critical and one should be careful about wording the two instruments of communication, since the entire proceedings will happen within the confines of these two letters. Legal advice may be sought before issuing this letter to an employee.
    • Suspension automatically implies payment of subsistence allowance…50% of the wages for this first 90 days and 75% after that till the completion of the Enquiry.
    • After the employee submits his written explanation to the Charge Sheet received by him, the management in the interest of fairplay and to grant the suspended employee fair and full opportunity to defend himself, may institute a Domestic Enquiry into the Charges leveled against the concerned employee.
    • For this the management will have to appoint an Enquiry Officer to conduct the DO(Domestic Enquiry) This process also follows a certain procedure which should be correct.
    • During the Enquiry the employee will be allowed to seek assistance of a co-employee or even an outsider (generally it a Union representative) to act as his counsel to represent him in the Enquiry proceedings.
    • After the enquiry is over the management will decide the kind of punishment it plans to inflict upon the employee for which proper written communication to the employee is necessary.

Correctness of the action taken, carefully considering the nature of misconduct and the punishment given, will determine the future course of action should the employee decide to challenge the decision of the management in a court of law.

Someone has said that in while addressing cases of indiscipline one should use
one’s head and not the heart. I fully agree with this line of thought.

Managing indiscipline is very vast subject and there a lot of fine points that are involved depending upon situations. It will be difficult to list all of these in one go.

I hope the above narration and explanation of handling indiscipline gives you a good insight into certain important realities.

In case you have any specific clarification, please feel free to contact me anytime.


Best Wishes,

Vasant Nair
09717726667
Email:
s
11th October 2009 From India, Mumbai
Dear Friends,

I have read some of the detailed responses of fellow HR practitioners. I have the following advice to offer.

1. Charge Sheet or Suspension is NOT an HR practice. There is nothing right or wrong about this.

2. Managing Discipline or rather Indiscipline is a very important and sensitive function of the HR person in an organization. Ignoring indiscipline generally piles up into a messy affair which takes a lot of effort and time to sort out, at a later stage.

3. Indiscipline must be addressed with clinical promptness and precision. There is no tailor-made solution how to handle indiscipline. Solutions are situation based and need to be so addressed.

4. In this case an employee with a very long association and clean service record, is found to have not followed the proper system of following up with some clients resulting in an outstanding of Rs.40 lacs approx.

5. The management has suspended him. Now as Ranjeet has stated, he has been suspended for 7 days whereas the Standing Orders of the Co. provide for suspension of only 6 days.

6. I will safely suppose that the 6 day suspension stipulated in the Standing Orders is “Punishment” and not suspension pending enquiry.

7. There is a suggestion that the Charge Sheet should have been issued after Enquiry. If it is Domestic Enquiry that is being referred to, the suggestion is incorrect.

8. I will outline the process which needs to be followed if Disciplinary action is contemplated against an employee.

9. At the very outset let me explain that the management is at liberty to suspend, Charge Sheet or take any action it deems proper in a given situation. What matters is whether the action so taken is correct under provisions of law or not. Can you commit a murder. Yes you can, but then you got to face the consequences.

10. The correct process would be as under:

a. An employee commits an act of misconduct.

b. The management finds the act committed by him serious enough to immediately suspend him. This should be suspension pending enquiry into the matter.

c. At a later stage, after having examined the facts of the matter, the management may issue a detailed Charge Sheet.

d. It is important to impress here that the wording of the letter of suspension and later the Charge Sheet is critical and one should be careful about wording the two instruments of communication, since the entire proceedings will happen within the confines of these two letters. Legal advice may be sought before issuing this letter to an employee.

e. Suspension automatically implies payment of subsistence allowance…50% of the wages for this first 90 days and 75% after that till the completion of the Enquiry.

f. After the employee submits his written explanation to the Charge Sheet received by him, the management in the interest of fairplay and to grant the suspended employee fair and full opportunity to defend himself, may institute a Domestic Enquiry into the Charges leveled against the concerned employee.

g. For this the management will have to appoint an Enquiry Officer to conduct the DO(Domestic Enquiry) This process also follows a certain procedure which should be correct.

h. During the Enquiry the employee will be allowed to seek assistance of a co-employee or even an outsider (generally it a Union representative) to act as his counsel to represent him in the Enquiry proceedings.

i. After the enquiry is over the management will decide the kind of punishment it plans to inflict upon the employee for which proper written communication to the employee is necessary.

Correctness of the action taken, carefully considering the nature of misconduct and the punishment given, will determine the future course of action should the employee decide to challenge the decision of the management in a court of law.

Someone has said that in while addressing cases of indiscipline one should use

one’s head and not the heart. I fully agree with this line of thought.

Managing indiscipline is very vast subject and there a lot of fine points that are involved depending upon situations. It will be difficult to list all of these in one go.



I hope the above narration and explanation of handling indiscipline gives you a good insight into certain important realities.

In case you have any specific clarification, please feel free to contact me anytime.

Best Wishes,

Vasant Nair

09717726667

Email:

s
11th October 2009 From India, Mumbai
Dear Jeeni
I see varied views on the issues and i thought I will add to it:
1. At the outset the an employee can be suspended pernding enquiry on serious charges. At times , due to gravity of the situation, an employee maybe suspended pending enquiry and a charge sheet can be issued in due course. As per law in general if the standing orders apply ( if the person is considered as a workmen ) ,then susbsistence allowance is payable.
2. The concept of penal disciplen is generally used in case of workmen and in case of executives ,today such actions are not resorted. Instead , counselling is used and where it fails repeatedly then one needs to look at other options for a separation. Unless there is a deliberate malafide intent and or an issue of integrity ,it is bet to have a mutually pful separation.
3The decision on separation must be carefully taken . Unless there serious issus, penal action against an emplyee with 25 years of blemishless service will demoralise others.
4.In the case cited by you, if a management has doen what you have said then there will be no "fairl play and equity". Every person must be heard before being condemned and if a managemnt does not do so and takes unilateral action ,it will be killing enthisiasm and will nstill "fear psychosis" amongst employees. In todays context of focussing on enhancing employees engagement, such action of management will produce an advserse effect.
5. Many at times thses days, Management's use the termination clause in the appaointment letter to terminate. Such actions can be questionsed in court if the person so sent out seeks protection under the ID act. It will be the onus n th management then to prove that the person is not a workman.
6.One more important pointI would like you to note is that -HRManagers's many attimes have to dance to the dictates of the higher ups. Many at tmes they are helpless and are forced to carry out the instructins. In the instant case,if the GM is a dictator ,there is nothing that the HR Manager can do..or else he or she should be ready to quit.
7.A suggestion on what an executive can do. The Executive can make a representation to the GM outlining what had happneded. such letters can be marked to the superior of the GM as well. Of course ,a better option would be to approach the supervisor and through him or her seek to clarify and resolve the issue. In case as this , a supervisor will also be accountable and it will be unfair to shhoot the person below as a cause for failure.
8.One more aspect that needs to be seen is as to wheither th work assigned is a part of the normal job of he executive ? Is the person brifed about the task clearly? isd the executive make efforts? If so what was made ? Wasthe employee provided adequate resources to do the task?Were there any extraneous factor that effected the transaction? We need answers to all thses questions before coming to a conclusion as to who was responsible for the situation.
My answers to your points are as under pointwise:
1-Suspension without subsitence allowance is justifiable by law or not.>>If the person is covered under ID act or standing orders, it will be bad in law. It is not the "Designation" but the job done will be basis of judgement. IA subsistence allowanc e is payable ( pl refer Id act or standing orders).Even for an exective ,the employer will stand high ,if a subsistence allowanc is paid.

2- Suspension only is 1 misconduct is justifiable with law and principle of natural justice.>>"Suspension pending enquiry " is not a punishment as per law. "Suspension" as a punishment can be imposed based on the gravity of charges proved in a domestic enquiry. If the principles of natural justice is not followed, the punishment is bad in law and will be struck down by a court.
3- Suspending an employee without any formal enquiry is justifiable.> Not justifiable. ven if an employee accepts , it has been opined to have an enquiry and then effect the punishment to avoid any charges that the admission letter was extracted.
4- To chargesheet an employee directly asking for explanation even you are not going to conduct domestic enquiry is justifiable.> It is fair to ask for an explanation from an emplyee by giving ta notice of charges levelled with the details of acts of commission and ommission ,giving 48 hours or 72 hours time.
5-It is not a part of misaapropriate use of fund, it is just that bills of worth 40 lakhs was not forwarded to concern ministry on time. Discipline includes a lot of things.
> we need to investigate the matter as outlined above by me.
Do you think that it is a good human resource practice where your employee thinks that their jobs are insecure.
Whether we should take steps with iron hand where people will work till the time bosses were there. >> No that will not yield results. Please give feedback to the management through your Boss. May be you may not be aware about some facts that were not told. A healthy communication is required if there has been some reason.
Whether we should encourage such culture where people are working with a feeling of insecurity and in a tense sitution.
>Of couse not...such culture will drive away Talent and it will lead to slavery.
When we say Human Resouces, we are here to take care of our employees and to driven a good culture in the organisation.
HR is a tool many at times used to shoot . A good HR Manager will try to avoid such situation by educating the managemnt. If the HR Manager is under directions and ha to execute without option,what can he do???/He can't jump an dkeep jumping. It is diffiecut to infer about HR or a Managerunless we know the full situation. Truth many at times i s elsewhere.
I had gone through a book of Mr.Khera "You Can Win", where he has Fear Motivation are only temporary. It work till the time the fear factor or boss was there.
>Very true...
I personally beleive in the culture in an organisation where employees look forward to come on the job.
>Yes we need to creat such a situation .....enabling climate. Look for specifics to be done.
Please answer my queries, 2 suspension in a week are we going in a right direction.
> Need to look into the facts ...pl ask your manager. If this is a culture..find another place to work....
throwing out an employee or takin their resignation is right or wrong-May be it is a good plicy to reduce your heads in this period of recession.
> Need to understand the full facts and the situation before we can come to a conclusion. If the ship is sinking them, we need to see how we can turnaround.

What you will day to the GM where he scolds everybdy for small things like phone was disconnected due to technical reason in between.
> If the top man behaves like that, there is nothing much you can do it. It is upt the managet to see wha they want to perpetuate. I am sure the noice will reach the Management sometime and they will take corrective action.
May be i think he does not know what is the menaing of HR. Our first value of the company is integrity, respect ...... Where is the respect for the other, where is that joy at workplace.
>>many at times whay you stated are given as lip service. That is why employee enagagement varies and it depends upon what is actually present. HR Department coming with statementwithout the commistment of the top will be of no use. The Management Team as a whole needs to articulateand take actions or else such statements and will hang on the walls ....like picture..
Again my question is it not necessary to issues warning letters in minor misconducts like absencebefore issuing chargesheet or suspending them directly is right?
> Ideally yes. But at times based on gravity ,if need to higher punishment can be given
11th October 2009 From India, Madras
Hi,
Disciplinary action under the tenets of model standing order is perfectly alright.In the model standing orders there is provision for suspension pending enquiry. Good Human resource pratice includes initiating discipiinary action against erring staff . The role of HR dept cannot always remain goody and should be in the direction of healthy practices.
shibu krishnan
11th October 2009 From India, Pune
The advice given by Mr Vasant Nair is absolutely correct. Thanks for sharing the rights steps to be taken in the conduct of domestic enquiry.
I am sure no one will have doubts now about the procedure.
KCS Kutty

11th October 2009 From India, Madras
Dear Friends,

I think Mr. Sarfaraz had hit the nail on the head.

A junior employee being HELD RESPONSIBLE for non-recovery of Rs. 40 lakhs (that too from a Ministry)

The question that arises are :

1. Is the "Ministry" running away with Rs. 40 lakhs ?? Anything due with the Govt. of India, can always be recovered.

2. Were the seniors sleeping for so many years, and then they suddenly woke up ?

3. Why should not the seniors be charge-sheeted ?? If they say, they were NOT aware, then this is also a big error on their part.

4. The truth, in my humble opinion, is that this poor chap had been reminding his bosses time and again regarding the Rs. 40 lakhs.

But since, the company wanted some favours from the Ministry, they were not pressing hard for the amount.

In turn they must be telling the person verbally (as it happens normally), to keep things in abeyance for some time.

Such verbal orders must have continued time and again.

Also, it is not possible for a junior employee to recover Rs. 40 lakhs from the Ministry on his own. He must be going to his bosses, who must be ordering him to keep quiet for some time.

I wonder how our dear HR professionals are baying for the blood of the poor employee in the name of "DISCIPLINE".

Give a dog a bad name, and then shoot him.

HR professional should develop the ability to -
  • read between the lines
  • be analytical in their approach and not to accept 'facts' as they are presented
  • play a non-partisan strategic role for the betterment of the organization

Unfortunately, they only believe in :
  • "HR" is a link between the Management and the Employee."

Link for what ?

A postman's job of passing repugnant orders from top-to-bottom ??
  • "Nowhere its a theory that the HR must only consider the employee side of view."

Correct. One should take only the employer's side; after all its a question of one's bread-and-butter which is provided by the employer (and not by the employees).

Looked at this way, there is no difference between the HR's involvement and Auditors involvement in the Satyam scam - both acted on behalf and in collusion with the erstwhile management.

I agree that we are all responsible to our own families; but then we should also draw up a limit to the extent to which one can bend.

Else, why call oneself an HR professional (without perhaps having the requisite degrees/diplomas); better to go back to the business of sugar cane juice vending (as our member AnonymousA has implied in a thread).

Dear Ranjeet

I compliment you on putting up this thread, and I appreciate your personal values and professional ethics in thinking that suspension is unfair, and that something is not correct with this whole episode.

We need more upright, sensitive and brave HR professionals like you.

I agree with your satement "When we say Human Resouces, we are here to take care of our employees and to driven a good culture in the organisation."

and, I understand you when you say, "In my previous post also i had writeen that my HR Manager knows only to manage by hook or by crook. She just know what happens in one company itself as she is baby of this comapny."

I think HR these days have found a "new niche" in the scheme of things.

Unfortunately, I see that the day is not far off; when HR professionals will be handing summary Dismissal order; in case there is a loss in the company; to several office-boys ; the reason being - their indiscipline; in not providing good quality tea at the right time to senior officials, causing a drop in their efficiency and thereby causing a loss to the company !!!

Please do not laugh, when one can hold a petty employee responsible for Rs. 40 lakhs; why not office-boys for loss worth crores ??

After all, isn't whatever the BOSS says is correct ??

Regards.
12th October 2009 From India, Delhi
Dear Friends,

I endorse Mr KCS Kutty's view about the inputs from Mr. vasant Nair.

Mr. Nair has given a very precise and legally correct brief on disciplinary proceedings.

Another point I wish to reiterate is : Issuing chargesheet is not the end, but the beginning of disciplinary proceedings.

Subsequently a Departmental Enquiry needs to be constituted, an Enquiry Officer nominated; who 'appoints' a Prosecution Nominee and similarily allows the Charge-Sheeted Employee (CSE) to choose a Co-worker to assist him in his defence. The proceedings are quasi-judicial in nature, thereby meaning that all the principles of natural justice are followed.

However, in these days of profiteering; no company has the time or sensitivity to follow legally laid out rules. They have the power and money to bribe one and all. So principles are flouted with impunity.

It is for the HR professionals to create a strategic role for HR in an organization; as well as champion the cause of fair-play; corporate ethics and principles of natural justice in an organization.

Also, they must be made aware of the role and rights of whistle-blower in an organization, and that it is alright to speak against the management in case principles of ethics are being compromised (and not just being an "agent" or a "yes-man" of the employer).

Warm regards.
12th October 2009 From India, Delhi
Dear All.

Thanks for showing your interest.

I had learnt a lot from these posting.

Though my career is only of 2 years, but in these 2 years i have come across so many stution where i have seen the management is biased, autocratic and ready to take resignation only in 1 misconduct.

I have seen the time where management had taken a resignation because one of my associate had raised his voice against them on a publich forum like facebook.

I dont know whether i am wrong to criticize things, i knw people often in HR told me that yaha toh yahi chalta hai. I had hot argument over certain isue. But they things like that saying we are in HR.

I have discussed with Madhu sir also about the defination of workmen and executive, he also discussed the same.

No body is there to raise the voice of employees, they used to work for min 12 hrs a day without overtime and other benefits and i am helpless.

Unions are management friendly where they think only of their increment.

I have come to know that thier is acse of Managemet b/w employee, where employee was sacked only becoz he had form an union. still the case is going on.

I had done my traing in BHEL, JHANSi and i grew up in that culture. I have seen good HR practices there. How they are still managing profits with total employee satisfaction.

We are not the dictators, we are humans, mistakes are a part of life but one should counselled forst before taking actions.

Is it necessary to give subsitence allownce for 6 days only.

I have lot of thoughts which i will discuss with all of you later on.

Thanks for all the responses from my respectable seniors.

You all are like the dronacharya from all of whom i can learn a lot in my coming years in my carrear.

You path is always helpful to all of the junior member.

Regards

Ranjeet
12th October 2009 From India, New Delhi
Dear,
Why to think so negative about your profession, It all depends on the personal values, the culture in which you have groomed, the knowledge you have.
Hr is a good profession but yo have to make steps in correct directions.
Madhu sir and Malik sir, Still waiting for your replies on the whole episode.
Regards
Ranjeet
12th October 2009 From India, New Delhi
dear ranjit
i could not reply due to my sickness.discipline has to be maintained at any cost but i have gone through this complete case,procedure has not been adopted correctly.i will reply your query question wise.

12th October 2009 From India, Delhi
Dear Malik Sir,
Hope you are good now.
Thanks for sharing your views.
Sir, In this case Management had not conducted any enquiry. First the case come in to the existence, HR had issued the Suspension letter for 7 days for the same. In between, HR had issued a chargesheet for the explanation within 48 hrs.
Now as per the principle of natural justice, one should conduct enquiry before suspension. Whether we have to document each and every thing. If the enquiry is not take place, Whether we can suspend some one.
2- What are the steps employee can take against the whole proceedings.
Sir, If some one not turned up for 7 days, whether we can suspend him for this.
REgards
RAnjeet
13th October 2009 From India, New Delhi
Dear All,

Greetings!

The recent update on the case is quite funny.

I can't believe that we as working in the HR Department can take this decision.

All of them are now free. Management had conducted enquiry about the above incident, the Culprits are now free, they all have given the Warning letter only about the decision + a warning letter to the victim also.

The accused who is a permanent employee has good relation witgh the people in Management. Our Executive chef had supported him. The whole on the spot written statements keep aside and given this decision to give all of them warning letters.

The victims also given a warning letter because Management thinks that he is also a part of whole event and they said that clap requires 2 hands.

Kindly go through my posting again and give your decision, the victim has 4 witness against the accused while only their are written statement of the acused about the victim.

The third indepandant party had also given statement in favour of victim.

Now my question is that in which direction we are moving. Discipline we have to take ion serious note. I s this a correct step to be taken

What going on in Guragaon in automobile industry is a serious concern related to discipline.

The morale of the whole staff is too low and i have my hands tied.

Please advice what to do.

Regards

Ranjeet
21st October 2009 From India, New Delhi
Hey Ranjeet,
Happy Diwali to you too.
The results clearly shows hand-in-gloves of culprit with management or the management is frightned by the culprit of any consequences; if we perceive by what you have say about the culprit.
In this whole case, my only attention was on the victim who was beaten. I am really surprised at your companies decision and whatever reputed firm you belong to....ones need to ponder are they really "reputed".
Permanent or contractual, "No one on this earth have been given the right to physically assult anyone". Period. The victim staff, even at fault, must have been encouraged to file a police complaint against the accused and you would have had a different story to tell us. The shame with which the victim staff will work is humaliting to even think of.
All reputation of a company in trash (sorry for that harsh words), when it comes to justice and fair practice, is what I follow.
Regards,
ukmitra

21st October 2009 From Saudi Arabia, Riyadh
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