Ash Mathew
Recruitments, Training`
Prasad_raj325
Manager - Hr (generalist)
Rashidmusa
Compensation And Policy
Vineetsaini19
Recruitment, Appraisals
Kulsneha25
Generalist
SGW
Bde-hr & Rpo Team
Gunjan Sarojwal
Recruitments, T&d
Amrita.solanki
Mba -student
Rohini
H R Manager
Prashant Umrigar
Hr-executive
Devashish.rai
Talent Acquisition
Shivksingh
Service
Muduli2000
Service
SSbhatt
Generalist
+3 Others

Hi All,

Our company is in a big mess.

We are a KPO with two shifts day and night. I am the HR Manager for both the shifts.
Day shift timings - 8am to 5 pm.
Night shift timings - 6pm to 3 am.
My timings - 10am to 6 pm or sometimes 7 pm.

I am a female, recently got married in feb 09. so cant stretch more.

The problem is:
1)There is alot happening in the night shift which I donot come to know. Even the project mangers of the Night shift have started their own rules, laws for the employees.
2) They have started making groups. They keep that person in the team who works under them as labour and for as many hours they say.
3)They kick off the genuine employees who wish to rise in their career that they'll replace them one day making false technical reports about them which cant be questioned.
4)The company has become stagnant and a kind of Jungle rule have started prevailing.
5)No policy is being followed.

Kindly suggest how should I stop and control all this.

Please seniors.

Thanks,
Vineet
12th May 2009 From India, Chandigarh
You need to have someone "on the job" in night shifts.

Only then we can sort it out becasue it seems like a lot of monitoring is required. Expectign them to send reports is well and fine - but ultimately the power to manipulate and decide rests in the hand of the Project Managers.

Even if you warn them it will still be of no use - the same thing will continue.

So if you cant offer to stretch urself at this point, I gues you need to hire someone who can work on HR activities in the night shift, and you could delegate a few tasks to that person in terms of observation and collecting actual information, to report on issues - not to be the deciding authority - but report on what is happening, and also - to orient the night shift ppl about the rules and policies once in a while.

May I ask how you came to know that genuine employees are being replaced? I am sure you would have received this info from the same genuine employees or others who fear the job... Kindly dont come to conculsions from this. Pls have a first hand information on all these matters. Its better to have a seperate person assigned under you for Night shifts alone.

Thanks
12th May 2009 From India, Madras
Hi Vineet,
May be you can shift one of the employees in your team working in the day shift to night shifts. Once you have done that let that employee be on the floor and talk to the employees and the team leads and managers.
Prepare the incident report for each and every inident reported, so that you get the accurate and up to date information.
You can also ask your employee to communicate the policies across the board at regular intervals.
In case you do not have any one reporting to you in the morning shift to be transferred to the night shift, then you might have to hire one for the night shift
12th May 2009 From India, Mumbai
Good one Ash, In line with the same, I suggest to frame 360 degree review model so that HR can monitor Supervisors and Leads also. Regards, Shiv
12th May 2009 From India, Bangalore
I opine there is a loop in the system. first of all the project managers should not be allowed take actions on their own, all the employee related matters need to be handled along with HR representative, to this extent you should formulate some SOPs and get it approved by the Board or senior management. As an individual it will be difficult for any one to work for more than 8 - 9 hrs a day on regular basis in this context you are to influence the management for hiring one more HR rep for the other shift.
You should also bring a system that any deviation should be documented by thoe immediate superior duly signed and counter signed by the project manager and forwarded to HR so that you can be part of the decision othrwise over a period of time nobody is left over in the system when the managers are acting to their wins and fans and ultimately company will be the looser. This part you have to project to the management, influence them in acting positively.
regards - kameswarao
12th May 2009 From India, Hyderabad
I want to clarify one thing that there is no Hr person working under me, I am the only one handling everything.
12th May 2009 From India, Chandigarh
Hi vineet,

As per knowledge i have understand from your post that, there is no control in the system. i would suggest you to prepare a SOP ( if you have rights to do that) for this company & get it approved by board members. Then every thing will be followed as mentioned in the SOP including specimen of your reports & routine work process. If it is per approved then there will be no compromise on following the same by anybody.

Regards,
Amit.
12th May 2009 From India, Thana
Hi Vineet,

My suggestion is, first of all, you have to make a structure for HR department, where it is better to appoint two functional employees, we can call them as "Employee Service Coordinator or Supervisor". One person should be allocated to night shift also in pertinent to all HR works and services.

In addition to this, you have to develop the SOP (policies and procedures) at the very earliest and implement in the Company; which should be included the disciplinery actions also. Those who are not following these SOP, you can easily find out through your HR Coordinators/assistants and take actions agaisnt the concerned employee.

The only way to solve the issue is, first of all you have to develop a foundation for HR in your Company. Without tools and resources, it will be more difficult to monitor the organizational functions.

Please mind it that now a days, HR is in the business, by the business and for the business, by branding the organization to attract, engage and retain the talented employees, where building the organizational culture by motivating and developing the competencies.

BR
Jaleel
13th May 2009 From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
The bigg problem is your Management if the nature of business warrent they must engage night shift HR officer or parttime HR for night shift who may be available at flexible time for 4 hours as per his convenient to implement HR policies and give you feed back to make corrections and improve systems.
We should not think in box and customary practices doesnot help us in many sicuations you have to amend modus operandi as per business models.
Rashid
13th May 2009 From Saudi Arabia
Hi,
If they have no intentions of hiring a new person under you - why dont you work 5 hrs in morning shift and 3 hrs in evening shift?
May serve the purspose. Management will also be happy :-) that you are thinking of effective solutions!
13th May 2009 From India, Madras
hello Ash,
I do not appreciate this advise as lady she should work for more than 8 hours a day this is official time and rest of the time is her personal time for family commitments. She should not spend her personal time on the job because she should have social commitment too.
Advising anyone to work morethan 8 hours without remuneration or just to stretch herself to justify that its demand of the job is not correct. Because if that is demand of job then managment must pay price and hire one more HR person to accomodate in time slot.
That is not her problem to spend 10 hours everyday on job. Nothing is free in this world and working does not mean doing charity to employer employer doesnot do any charity by employing HR manager if his business process demand two HR managers then he must hire two HR managers.
We must not promote such exploitation of HR manager to engage him 10 hours working on day to day basis.
Partho

13th May 2009 From Saudi Arabia
Oh I am sorry, it was supposed to be 5 hrs in the morning and 3 hrs in the evening. Try dividing your work hours. am sure this will help if they have no intentions of hiring another person.
13th May 2009 From India, Madras
Hi Vineet,
Can you tell me, which are the policies presently applicable in your company?
As you have mentioned there are policies but they are not followed. So if you know the policies and if you have concrete evidence that the policies are not followed, then you can take the issue to management taking all the concerned employees to the issue. You can call project managers as well as employees who know that the rules and regulations are not followed.
Regards,
Prashant
13th May 2009 From India, Surat
Dear Ash,
I am also not convinced with this 5 +3 due to unsocial working hours and hardship that may cause to women.
Her family is derprived of their rights to have company of wife, mother, relatives at home during evening hours.
Regards
Partho

13th May 2009 From Saudi Arabia
Hi ,
Do you have policy documented anywhere, on paper or intranet , make all kinds of poilicy which you think you require for the organization. If anybody as brokern the rules inspite of policies existance , you must take action . You must communicate.
Regards,
Rohini
13th May 2009 From India, Pune
Partha:
Who said women dont work late? They are not forced, but its their choice.
My first work was a night shift one - starts at 7:00 pm and ends at 3:00 AM. I was happy there for more than a year (Did not work as an HR tho) my HR there was a lady and this was how she adjusted her timings.
See - nothing will cause a harm to this lady if she works a couple of hour extra - atleast on a temp basis - because we need to sort problems (again its left to her to chose or not - not left to you to decide if she should chose or not)
I would have been much happy if you debated to find a solution .. am sad my points are not making u use ur head Partho :icon5:

13th May 2009 From India, Madras
@Vineet,
As you said no body is reporting to you, then you should persuade the management to hire atleast 1 more HR person to monitor things during night shifts and report to you directly so that you are in thje loop.
In parallel, you should prepare the SOP and make them recognised throughout the org. structure.

Once these two things are in place, take action on that basis starting from one-to-one and CAPs with the "victim" employee and the "accused" project manager.

This will bring the "errant" PMs on track (keeping in mind the professionalism they are showing).

--------------------------

:!:@Ash Mathew

In theory it may be ok to consider working 5hrs day shift and 3 hrs night shift. But in my opinion, getting to a KPO office from home in any city will take 45 atleast minutes on average. So going and coming twice will take 3 hrs instead of regular 1.5 hrs. This will even increase if there is a cab facility (4 hrs.).
Further, coming back from office in the evening exhausts me to no end (Lol), then think about Mrs. Vineet making it twice.

Regards,
Devashish :lol:.


13th May 2009 From United States, Schaumburg
Twice????
You did not get my views.
Start work post noon!
:lol: :lol: :lol: Oh My God... Now I am laughing!
And Vineet, appreciate if you could read the post from the beginning. And I guess you almost repeated what I mentioned.

13th May 2009 From India, Madras
Hi Vineet,
Though every one has given his / her valuable suggestions & i do agree to all of them. However, in addition to the list, i would like to suggest you to have a meeting first with all the tem managers ( one on one ) basis.Make them undersatand the cause & effect relataionship. Do not make them feel they are not the deciding authority but make them understand that any decision should have a positive effect on the organisation 7 the employee as well.
Also when you have one to one basis meeting, try to find out what do they have in mind. then you can formulate the requiste actions.
Guys your thoughts please..........
Regards
Yousuf
13th May 2009 From India, Bangalore
Hi,If hiring a new person will be an issue, then discuss with your management, interview a few people from the technical team and give responsibility of an HR SPOC for the night shift. The person might get into a 50% technical & 50% HR role and would ensure such bad practices do not take place in the work hours in which you are not available.Regards,Anuradha
13th May 2009 From India
Hi,If hiring a new person is an issue then you may discuss with your management, interview a few people from the technical team and give them the responsibility of an HR SPOC. The person may get into a 50% technical & 50% HR role and ensure such bad practices do not occur in the work hours in which you are not available.Thanks,Anuradha
13th May 2009 From India
Hi,
In my view you can get open feedback from employees i.e. know identity who is giving which information then only you can judge the real situation and afterwards you can take necessary actions to improve the situations by hook or crook.
13th May 2009 From India, New Delhi
hi Vineet,
I personally feel you need HR representatie in night shift too.. to handle employee related issues ... which gives you the info. in the night shift and helps to design SOP and get it approved.... I am sure.. physical presence of an HR in the company should help you at first level and then placing systems, policies in place at next level.
All the best for the same and post the solution once issue is resolved
regards
Bindu Kunapuli
13th May 2009 From India, Hyderabad
I suggest you to change the teams of every employee doing night shift. My experience is that changing the teams also changes the attitude towards work. The project managers are doing this to meet their own stats in a best way. Take an Issue when any sincere employee complains about this make the project managers answerable. Change the way of working ie. reports preparation, etc. There is a saying that you will continue to get the same If you keep doing the same.
Sandeep Vast.
13th May 2009 From India
Dear Vinit, First u better to take one assistant who will bar these things especially a guy who is having experience industry . Thanku, Prasanna reddy.:confused:
13th May 2009 From India, Hyderabad
Hi,
why don't you change your timings like 11am - 8 pm so that you can spend atleast two hours with second shift employees to get interact with them and know their problems.
Instead of going for new sop Educate all the project managers, supervisors, employees on policy matters.
If you don't handle it properly you will become anemy to them(all project managers) pls. handle with care. put it carefully before the top mgt/sr. mgt and explain how it damages the image/good will of the organisation.
Regards,
Prasad_raj325
13th May 2009 From India, Warangal
HI Vineet,
If you can't hire another HR person, you can ask management to change work shifts of those people who are creating nuisance in night shift so that you can youself monitor them.
Above all, report all these things to management. See what management tells u.
May be that can help.
BR
GS
13th May 2009 From India, New Delhi
Hi,
I completely agree with the solutions provided by Asha, but again I would be little disagree on working in 2 shifts. As it would not be so easy to maintain this schedule. After 5 hrs of working, definitely exhaustment will dominate the brain. Yeah, if she works from 2pm to 10 pm than I think Asha's idea may work out.
But, again it might be very tough for a newly married woman to work in such a shift. Again its hard to convience management as well. It may again hamper her personal life.
So, Its better if you can convience management to hire someone under you, as you are the person who is directly responsible for display the well guide or future growth strategy for the organisation, atleast you can give a try.
Offcourse management would not like to let spoil the culture of the organisation.
Best of luck!
Regards,
Ram
Sr. Executive
Tectonics
13th May 2009 From India, Mumbai
Hi Vineeth,
There could be two possible ways of countering the aforesaid issue:
1) Recruit a person to handle HR Function in the Night shift
2) Conduct an employee survey for both the shifts and try to identify their problems faced.
Finally, collate and submit the report to the Management to take a call on the prevailing practices as told by the Employees.
Regards,
Shiv
13th May 2009 From India, Ernakulam
hey vineet
what i feel is that might be u may not have much powers to control whats happening in the shifts. but there's one way of gathering insider information. guess who can be your best source of information?
let me tell you, its office attenders, office boys, watchmen security people. basically sub staff. so first buy in these people in your confidence by hook or crook. then put them in the role of information suppliers. once they giving you information you can start gathering evidences regarding who's doing what. depending on the information gathered you can put your word before your superiors to give you more power to take actions like hiring a new hr subordinate or making team leader report you before taking any hiring and firing, etc.
this is how most of my head of the department does and its working for him most of the times. try out.
13th May 2009 From India, Malappuram
Hi Vineet, Can see loads of suggestions pouring in. Not sure if this would work but just give it a try.But for this you need to do some groundwork keeping in mind that you are the only HR.
  1. Make a list of those who work in night shifts.
  2. Then check their grades/rankings and list out the heads/managers/employees etc. them draft a small chart-kind-of who's reporting to whom.
  3. Now, that you the list revisit their JO's/JD's.Then find a person working in the night shift(As Abdaz has suggested above) whom you can rely upon/or talk to the employees in night shift about their work(casually) what they doing, their productivity whom they are reporting etc. by now u'll have an idea and co-relate them to their JO's/JD's. Check if anybody is deviating from it(i.e if they are doing more than what is required from them which brings positive results to firm as a whole then fine n good but if its the other way around or if its really unnecessary for the firm;s structure then make a note of the same)
  4. Then check if the work is being distributed justly among all employees and none are kept with no-process to handle. The same applies with the unit heads/managers. if any decision has been taken in your absence or isnt being communicated to you or in anyway it has affected the HR roles than make a note of it (not necessary that all rules and regulations must be communicated to HR dept.There are some operations/process where the Managers/Heads have the right to decide). Just see if the HR role is really needed there. Else just discard it.
  5. Once, you have recorded all the above have a word with your senior or draft an email to your senior(if wanted to copy the other heads) pointing out just the decisions where the HR dept should be kept informed or so...and request you would like to have a small meeting or some norms to be brought in for the same. When you draft such an email just be careful in the way you onvey the message(also describe how it has affected the operations of the organisation with common examples pls dont point out anybody in person but as aprocess

Then, it all depends on the management if they wish to proceed with your request or not. If they do so then well and good..if not then just leave it to them...cos you have been proactive and taken all steps to prevent the consequences. Later, if they question you of anything, you can simply respond them that you have already kept them informed and you took necessary steps to do so.
14th May 2009 From India, Mumbai
Hi Asha Lovely solution. I thin k working in two shifts is a better option ad long as you dont stayfar off from the office and u can devote more time to your newly married life. Rgds Neha
14th May 2009 From India, Bangalore
Thanks all,
Actually the director is very much dependent on the project manager.
It was project manager only who brought the work to the company. He has good hold over the whole team.
If we implement SOP's in the system so as to monitor him, he 'll stop working which can hamper our work alot.
Neither he will work nor he'll allow somebody else to come up to his knowledge.
Our work domain is such that not many ppl in india are expertise of it.
So u can say that the MD is also regretting how to tackle the whole situation.
Good ppl with caliber are leaving the comapny. Only Project manager's referances stay back.
Vineet
14th May 2009 From India, Chandigarh
Talking regarding coming in 2 shifts is not possible at all.

It takes one hour commuting to the ofc. Even, I will be left with no time to spend with my family.

Well, I have thought of making a feed back form which the team members will fill, to take feedback of the PM. The employees are not required to mention their names.

Then the same can be presented to the Project manager in front of the MD saying that the whole team is not satisfied with you and are even afraid of u that if they'll not be gud to you they will be fired.

Keeping all these points in front of him and asking him the solution will help?????

I think then we will have a foundation to confront him. If we'll make any changes in terms of SOP's and putting somebody in the night shift, he can hamper the work.

After, speaking to him we can tell him straight way and even he''ll get to know that he is being monitored.

Please give your suggestions whether this can work out or just a unwanted thing.???

Or if there is any other solution please share.

Thanks,
Vineet
14th May 2009 From India, Chandigarh
Hi!
I would suggest, make your Exit Interview process strong. Send highlighted reports to all HODs and take this as a discussion point.
It will give visibility and will demand action.
Regards,
Sachin Khadilkar
14th May 2009 From India, Mumbai
Hi, I think you come twice in a week for a month then on the next month once in a week and after that sudden visit on any day. Make ur some man in this time on that shift subhra
14th May 2009 From India, Calcutta
Hi,
You can recruit night manager and maintain register for all incidents that take place in absence of you. The register will help you to control all your problems and incidents noted in register should be presented to top management above you.
regards
revathi
14th May 2009 From India, Madras
Hi Vineet,
In my opinion the best thing will be to appraise the top management about these issues and seek their guidance in the matter. You have to take the seniors in confidence and discuss the matter with them. Unless top management supports or understands the situation there is little you will be able to do.
Regards,
Umesh Sharma
14th May 2009 From India, Madras
i am surprised!!!! your employees have simply taken you for granted. The main cause for them to behave in this manner, is that there is no fear from superiors, they have misunderstood the power of HR in company.
I would also suggest you do not come down to any conclusions, you need to know the root cause of the problem and then act accordingly...
I think it is relevant from your end to hire 1 Hr professional for night shift who should be working under you so that your are been posted of each and every incident occuring during night shifts. I also feel that meeting can be arranged from your end with the project managers so that you can clear them with your intentions and verbal warning can be given so that if any such incident is repeated you are liable to take strict action agianst them (this will be apllicable only after finding the root cause and you find the project managers guilty)
14th May 2009 From India, Pune
hi vineet,
As a HR mgr,first thing u need to do is ,to build a good rapport with ur employees.And get their support too.
U ddnt mentioned ur team size.if it s a large,u may need supporting persons,and u can get a control too.
Divide ur working hrs with both the shifts...or , interchange ur working days with day and night..(As a married female,i can understand ur limits)..
14th May 2009 From United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi
Hello Vineet,

The fact remains that when there is no vigil people tend to break the rules. I am in a similar industry so I can totally understand your state.

here is what we have done in our company

1) we do regular skip meetings with all the employees (in batches). The agenda is giving the employees updates on what is happening in the company, briefing on a few polices and programs employees can take advantage of and the last 10 - 15 mins is open for query solving and grievances.

I take back that feedback to my team and the respective stakeholders (for whom the grievance was registered) and sort the issues out.

2) we have everything aligned to HR permissions. Any employee who is resigns has to meet the HR. We get to know the real reason and also make a retention pitch. if there is anything we need to sort out with manager we do so as well. Any termination that the manager intiates needs to be supported by documents justifying the separation. We again meet the employee to check if the claims were right or not.

3) It is very important to have policies in place. That will govern the conduct of the employees (at all levels) and any voilation there off will be meted with disciplinary action.

4) you will need to get down to details and dirty your hands a little bit. How many mangers are there, How many people report under each of them, How often people are moved from one manager to other, why such movements take place, what is the performance records of these manager and their employees. How do they take care of their employees welfare. How employees are being exploited? are the budgets alocated for the employee engagements being used rightly? or are managers eating it up?

things get a lot deeper. You will certainly have to spend some time yourself sorting out and studying the actual matter. this looks like a lot more mess than what you are mentioning and the sooner you start cleaning the better.

Appointed a new person under you may not really help as he / she would be new to the compnay and people and can be easily bullied or influenced. So you will have to get down to ground zero yourself. What i suggest is nevertheless appoint someone and ask him/her to shadow you and learn from observation. but your presence is important till such time that things start looking manageable.

I would like to discuss in details about what all employee welfare and management tools and processes we have in place. I am sure it will be of great use to you in such times.

you can contact me on

Good luck and I am sure you will pull it well. And i just hope your spouse understand and supports you. :)

Amrita
14th May 2009 From China
Dear Amrita,
Thanks for your wonderful suggestion.
I am surely gonna do the same.
Even, I had the same thought that putting a new HR executive in nite shift wont help at all as many had suggested.
Thanks a tonn.
Vineet
14th May 2009 From India, Chandigarh
i think u should first sort out ur priorities for ur personal life, dont over burden & detoriate ur health,working day & night.Then discuss the issue with authorities who can effect & make changes in organisational structure , command & control. over burdening is not the solution
14th May 2009 From Pakistan, Karachi
Hi Vineeth,

I have to say you are in a fix.

Let’s see. The two people who have made good suggestions are Ash and Kavitha.
Can you work two shifts? If not all the days, then a couple of days in a week, at least. In that way you become a visible HR. If this has been going on for a while now, chances are the trust of employees in the HR department is slowly reducing. By seeing you around might be the first change the employees need to see. There might not be a lot in your hands immediately but you have to gain ground slowly.

There is a Theory called “circle of concern - circle of influence” proposed by Stephen Covey.
See, all the advice you are getting from seniors, is subject to how much is in your hands. So first look at what is in your hands. Put all the sensible suggestions you have received in an order of what is in your influence to do. Do that first. You will see that once you have done, you will find that it makes way for others to be possible. Then, work on slowly increasing what you can change.

I have been through a similar situation and I know it will be a slow and tedious process of change; as change always is. All the more so; because the senior operations team, has become used to the flexibility.

It will take a good six months to put things in place. Make sure you don’t loose confidence and heart and get discouraged.

Regards,
Kavitha
14th May 2009 From India, Bangalore
Hi Vineeth,

I have to say you are in a fix.

Let’s see. The two people who have made good suggestions are Ash and Kavitha.
Can you work two shifts? If not all the days, then a couple of days in a week, at least. In that way you become a visible HR. If this has been going on for a while now, chances are the trust of employees in the HR department is slowly reducing. By seeing you around might be the first change the employees need to see. There might not be a lot in your hands immediately but you have to gain ground slowly.

There is a Theory called “circle of concern - circle of influence” proposed by Stephen Covey.
See, all the advice you are getting from seniors, is subject to how much is in your hands. So first look at what is in your hands. Put all the sensible suggestions you have received in an order of what is in your influence to do. Do that first. You will see that once you have done, you will find that it makes way for others to be possible. Then, work on slowly increasing what you can change.

I have been through a similar situation and I know it will be a slow and tedious process of change; as change always is. All the more so; because the senior operations team, has become used to the flexibility.

It will take a good six months to put things in place. Make sure you don’t loose confidence and heart and get discouraged.

Regards,
Kavitha
14th May 2009 From India, Bangalore
Hello,
The best way to tackle the problem are two in 2 steps
1- you need to make a agenda and call for a meet with the respective team manager and iron out any discrepancies with them regarding following proper laid down procedure and policy here you need to be a little dynamic as well as pragmatic by this you can win over them half your troubles will be gone
2- I suggest you follow a flexi timing like Asha madam suggested you work in UK time that is come in at 1400 hr and 2100hrs by this way you can cover for both the shifts
Cheers
Sanjay
15th May 2009 From India, Madras
Hi Vennti,
you have to implement HR policy and all HR reule. in this regards you have to hire one more person or may be internal you can put sone in night shift who can manage in better way in HR system.
Regards
PM
15th May 2009 From India, Bangalore
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