Human Resource And Industrial Relations
Assistant Engineer, Indian Telephone Industries,
Manager- Hr
R Devarajan
Human Resources Manager
Govt. Service
Associate Operations :softskill Training
+2 Others

Thread Started by #rakesh01

dear all, i want to start this session, .Here all of us will put the all case laws regarding "labour law ",specially by Bombay High court, and supreme court of india. rk.
27th September 2006 From India, Pune
Dear now a days DVD/VCD/CD r easily available on each & every domain of labour laws cases and latest judgements. u may easily procure them, what i think that we should discuss our opinions / views / implications on these judgements amd i m sure that these interactions will not only prove interesting but beneficial also for all of us.
to start with the discussions u can refer the recent jusgement of CIC on petition under RTI act,05. these cases on RTI u may easily download from CIC / GOI website. waiting for ur initiative as above.
with best regards
alok goel
27th September 2006 From India, Bharat
u have that cd / dvd, ok,
so now ,if possible , can u help me for some of my queries.
p f query
1) suppose basic 10,000 rs. then employer contribution 12 % ie. 1200.
from that 12 % can we put 8.33 % ( i.e rs. 833 ) towards pension ?
if we do this then it is legal or illegal ?
27th September 2006 From India, Pune
nice to know ur keen interest on labour law cases.
as far as ur specific query is concerned i would emphatically suggest that u should use formula "see backward, go forward". See what the prevailing practices and policies r and do accordingly, this decision u have to take as per the norms of co. permits. hope this will help.
i m still waiting the labour law case study which u intend to put forward for interaction on this forum.
with best regards.
alok goel
28th September 2006 From India, Bharat
means, if company wants to put 8.33% of 10,000 ( i.e. rs. 833 ) towards pension then it is permissible by pf dept ?
28th September 2006 From India, Pune
just to substantiate the meaning of word meaning, let me share a story with you :
Subject: The Art of asking a Question Effectively !
Jack and Max are walking to Church for a religious service.
Jack wonders whether it would be all right to smoke while praying.
Max replies, "Why don't you ask the Priest?"
So Jack goes up to the Priest and asks: "Priest, may I smoke while I pray?"
The Priest replies: "No, my son, you may not. That's utter disrespect to our religion."
Jack goes back to his friend and tells him what the good Priest told him.
Max says: "I'm not surprised. You asked the wrong question. Let me try."
And so Max goes up to the Priest and asks: "Priest, may I pray while I smoke?"
To which the Priest eagerly replies: "By all means, my son. By all means."
Moral: The reply you get depends on the question you ask.
with best wishes
alok goel
28th September 2006 From India, Bharat
No it is not mandatory to be LLB for an enquiry officer.
it is at the sole discretion of the competent authority to appoint any suitable official to be appointed as Enquiry Officer.
hope this will do the needful. if case u want any further explanation, u r welcome.
with best regards
alok goel
29th September 2006 From India, Bharat
In the organization having less than 50 employees can we terminate services of any employee without any explanation or notice thereof ?
( assume that such employee is working from last 4 years in that organization)
30th September 2006 From India, Pune

1. In every case especially re. labour laws each and every decision is based on certain facts and findings NOT ON ASSUMPTIONS.

2. it appears from the queries addressed time & again that due to lack of knowledge, skills and awareness these r arising repeatedly, and only available solution left is 'to enhace the competence level to deal with such cases / situations.

3. It seems that at some point of time everybody goes through this phase as i feel with me also but after pursuing LLB with specialisation in Labour Laws and Induatrial Relations i find it helped me a lot so i suggest that for any person to deal with such situations / cases must be quipped with proper competence (knowledge) only than he can do justice with the job.

4. for getting elementary knowledge and skills i would recommend to study 'Labour and Industrial Manual (pocket edition)' published by central law agency costing Rs. 80 only and this will help to fulfill the bare minimum requirement to get aligned with the domain of Labour law cases.

Hope this will do the needful to address the present query and the future one's also.

with best regards

alok goel
1st October 2006 From India, Bharat
hi, i am devarajan, I would like to join you all for an interesting discussion on PF. As per the provident fund act, irrespective of the salary any person who joins the organisation becomes a member of the provident fund from the day one of his/her joining. As pf is a social security scheme, it is imperative that all can be covered under the act. and regarding the calculation, 12% equal contribution from EE and ER. out of 12 % from the ER 8.33% goes to the pension fund and the remaining 3.37% goes to the provident fund of the the Employee.
it is absolutely legal for covering the employee as a member of the fund.
R Devarajan
3rd October 2006 From India, Madras
ok, mr. devrajan,
but i want to know if basic exceeds 6500 and still the company deducting pf from it and also contributing its 12% share, ok. Now my query is this that suppose basic is 10,000 and by 12% from employer's share if we take 8.33% means rs. 833/- then can the company put that 833/- towards pension? i am asking this since in pension rule it is mentioned that basic salary limit is 6500.
3rd October 2006 From India, Pune
hi rakesh

pension can be maximum contributed as 8.33 % on basic upto Rs. 6500.

Anything over that amount of 780/- the balance goes to provident fund. eg.

on 10, 000 basic if you are contributing at rate of 12% which is equal to Rs. 1200/-then 8.33% of 6500= 541 goes to EPS and 1200- 541= 659/- goes to EPF.

The above is a prctice followed by most of the companies however few are aware that the PF Deptt gives an option where employer's contribution of 12% goes on actual basic salary and he opts out of this cieling limit of 6500/- for EPS. Then 8.33% of actual total contribution which is 833/- would go to EPS.

Employers usually do not opt for this cluase as it increses the liability on the employer however certain pro- employee and cash- rich companies have opted for this option whereby they keep on contributing on actual basic salary.

Do you believe this -if the employers opt for the second option then a person whose basic salary is 10,000 /- now and suppose he gets avg. increment of 10 % every year then his pension after 30 yrs of working would be something of the tune of one lakh per month, maybe more!!!!!!!!!! whereas as per the cieling option it would be around 3250/- per month only.

4th October 2006 From India, New Delhi
hi rakesh, this devarajan again,
regarding the pension clarification, as per the act if the salary of an employee exceeds rs.6500/- per month, the the normal pf and pension deduction is as follows:
suppose if an employee salary is 10,000 p.m.,
his pf calculation would be
employee contribution Rs1200/- (12%), out of employer contribution (12%) - only rs.541/- will go to pension rest of the amount i.e., 1200 minus 541=659 will go to the employees provident fund. the normal procedure of 8.33% and 3.67% share from the ER never applies here in this case, since the salary ceiling is over 6500/- and therefore a flat amount of rs.541/- only is deducted from the employers share for pension. (6500 * 8.33% = 541)
hope this clarifies your query. if there any doubt further you may revert back to me
R Devarajan
4th October 2006 From India, Madras
Dear Mr. Devrajan
You are right as far as the option to opt for a cieling of 6500/- goes however if an employer opts out of this option and inturn starts to contribute on actual basic every year then in that case 8.33 of actual basic may go to EPS which is 833/- rupees.
I shall elucidate it further-
(1) If employer goes for clause putting cieling limit then-
The person with basic salary 10,000 will have 541/- as EPS and rest (1200-541= 659/-) as EPF
(2) If an employer chooses to keep on contributing as per the actual basic salary without putting any cieling of 6500/- then the person with 10,000 basic salary will have 833/- going into EPS and (1200-833= 367/-) going into EPF.
4th October 2006 From India, New Delhi
Dear All,
For PF case you can refer to my post if you wish to:
<link no longer exists - removed>
Dear Rakesh,
Thank you for starting this thread but I feel like you are a quiz master testing our knowledge.
4th October 2006 From India, Thane
hi rolly
as per your definition to point No.2, if the employee opts to contribute without considering the ceiling, then he can do so. PF is a social security scheme, if an employee wishes to contribute any amount it will be considered as voluntary contribution to the scheme. ultimately the employee develops a saving habit and derives benefit from the scheme.
am I right
4th October 2006 From India, Madras
Mr. Rolly and devrajan,
just concentrate here.
though if we contribute rs. 833 as 8.33% of 10,000/- but still the pension amount after retirement will not (?) rise accordingly for the said employee. since i think the max limit of pension is mentioned in pension act. though i am not sure about this max limit of pension after retirement thats why i started this discussion.
if u can clear my doubt then please help me.
( we r discussing about industrial employee, so please dont compare it with Govt. employee, since Govt. employee having different scheme specialy for them, in which the pension can rise for Govt. employee, but just check whether for pension scheme related to industry , is there any max. limit of pension after retirement related to that 8.33% of 6500 , since if there is such max limit then there will be no use of contributing more than 541 , i.e. 8.33% of 6500)
this very imp so pls clarify it if anybody knows the details of this.
4th October 2006 From India, Pune
Dear Rakesh
there is a pension limit if employer is contributing taking into account the cieling of 6500 however if the employer contributes at 8.33% of actual basic salary then in that case pension amount is decided according to average of basic salary (actual) drawn during the last year i.e. the year preceeding the retirement.
so in such case pension amount becomes directly proportional to avg. of last yera's salary drawn.
Ms. Rolly
4th October 2006 From India, New Delhi
Hi All,
I am poonam and i have cleared written exam of SAIL in HR domain and my gd and interview is on 12th November. could you please help me how and what should I prepare for it. Along with this i want to have thorough knowledge of labour laws and industrial relations too. Could you plz help me by mentioning good books or e-books or having good materials on hr topics. Kindly forward to my mail ID
Plzzzzzzzz help
Poonam Rani
18th October 2008 From India
i recently joined this hr forum and very much interested in hearing u hr people
i would like to tell u that without notice period employer could not retrench/terminate
servicing of notice peroid is a manadatory requirement
looking to hear more from your end
18th October 2008 From India, Lucknow
guyes this not the cases n recent cases wht ever we are discussing is wht we allredy have in the books i go through this jsut bcoz i thought tht i could get some real cases happend n requred doccumentation etc. not the provision which are allredy available.
29th December 2009 From India, Pune
things are not the same.
it is true that every employees should be enrolled for epf from the date of joining
what about exempted employees who fill up form 11
what about the maximum slab of 6500 prescribed for exemption
there are many aspects of this law, i am a practitioner of this Act since the last more than 12 years seeing the pros and cons of this act
to me and to most of the establishments the act is a mere confused tool for the epfo to extort monies originally not due under the pretext of practising powers under the act\
adv prasiddh narayan, goa
28th February 2010 From India, Karwar
for domestic enquiry, it is not compulsory for an enquiry officer to be a law graduate. it is a temporarily natured quasi judicial proceeding.
however the enquiry officer should hold the enquiry using all fair means and arbitrarily letting out every opportunity to both the parties to furnish their says / replies and put i writing the grounds / justifications / arguments of the matter since the matter if taken for an appeal, the enquiry officer stands to be a witness in the court proceeddings
thanks and regards
\prasiddh narayan 9765664475/
28th February 2010 From India, Karwar
If an employer has been contributing at actual rates (in excess of 6500/-) to PF, there will not be any additional burden to employer; in opting EPS contribution for beyond 6500/- Also there is no upper limit for Eps-95 pension. Ceiling is only applicable to pensionable salary, but not pension.

For pension calculation, the service will be taken into 2 parts. Service before 16.11.95 and service w.e.f 16.11.95. The first one is called as past service and latter one as pensionable service. Past service is divided into 4 slabs. Service upto 11 years, 12 to 15 years, 16 to 19 years and 20 & above. If the salary on 16.11.95 is below Rs. 2500, the monthly compensation will be Rs. 80, 95, 120 & 150 respectively. For Rs. 2500 & above this will be Rs. 85, 105, 135 & 170. This amount is for those who attain 58 years on 16.11.95. In the case of those attain 58 years after 16.11.95, the above compensation will be multiplied by a factor stipulated in table B, according to the difference between 16.11.95 and the date of completion of 58 years.

For pensionable service there is a formula to calculate pension. It is Pensionable Salary x Pensionable Service / 70. Pensionable salary can be categorised in to 3. 1) Below Rs. 6500. 2) Rs. 6500 & above, but contribution on statutory celing of Rs. 6500. 3) Above Rs. 6500 & opted to contribute on actual salary. In case of 2nd, pensionable salary is Rs. 6500. In other two cases, pensionable salary will be the average of last twelve months. Also if pensionable service is 20 years & above 2 year's bonus will be given.

For details please see the web site :

http://epfindia.com <link updated to site home>

One example I shall quote.

Date of Birth - 2.1.1961

Date of join - 23.2.1987

Salary on 16.11.95 - Rs. 2500 & above

Salary on completion of 58 years on 1.1.2019 - Rs. 6500 (Statutory Ceiling)

Past Service - 8 yr 9 m (approx) rounded to 9 years

Compensation - Rs. 85

Factor as per Table B (for less than 24 years, i.e the difference between 16.11.95 & 1.1.2019) - 6.102

(This can be calculated as 1.08 to the power of 24 - 0.5, correct to 3 decimals)

Past Service Benefit - 85 x 6.102 = Rs. 519 - (A)

Pensionable Service - 23 years

Bonus (Service is 20 & above) - 2

Pensionable Salary - Rs. 6500

Pensionable Benefit - 6500 x 25 / 70 = 2321 - (B)

Total Pension - (A) + (B) = Rs. 2840

I shall insert Excel work sheet to calculate pension. Enter Date of Birth, Date of Join, Date of Seperation from Service, Salary on 16.11.95, Salary on Seperation from Service ( in compliance with the contribution to pension fund) and break in service before and after 16.11.95, if any in green colour column. The results will appear in yellow colour column. The red colour is for static information.

In case of any error or suggestion, please notice to me.



ITI Employees' Association,



+91 9447 467 667
19th August 2010 From India, Bangalore

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