sumi71 Started The Discussion:
Hi All,

People Leave Bosses Not Company. This was the finding of survey conducted on attrition. The survey was conducted among lakhs of people and 80000 managers.
The findings said People Leave Bosses and not the company.

In my opinion that is true. Because of the attitude of managers the employee feels insecure. When a manager says something about employee, he gets humiliated. First time he gets a thought of changing the job. Second time he put his thoughts into action. Third time he will leave the job.

Very few people are leaving the job because of the money factor. Others don’t. But they are forced to leave, by the acts of managers which they are doing knowingly or unknowingly. Here manager means not only the reporting manager or middle management, but also includes all management people including the CEOs.

Who is responsible for Attrition - Bosses Or Company?


Umesh.S.

Posted 8th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
Hey Pal,

Let me say, that it is one of the best topic that needs to be discussed ! I also admit that this is the Ongoing Issue . The main reason for Employee to leave the company is eighther his Boss is not Understanding.When I say Understanding, It plays a wider sense in me . This may include few of the listed :-

A small smile on his face during his conversation to the employees .
Understanding the potentialities of the Employee and Driving him/her to Career pathing .
PAT on back when an Employee does a good job .
Basic Professionalism..

Over all Manager, is a person who not only manages the Employees and their work but also should be successful in Managing the Brand Image of the company's standards.

I donno, I am new to this Industry and I can see many seniors in this forum, But what I would say is a MANAGER should be like a father, who should have a control and eye watch over the team as well should praise when needed .


Cheers,
Gayathri Suraparaju
Posted 8th August 2007 From India, Hyderabad
preetk 
Hi Gayathri,

I agree with your views. The bosses should treat the sub ordinates in such a way the employee should feel like friend and share everything and avoid problems.

As you said it is good topic to be discussed.

Preet
Posted 8th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
Hello Umesh.S.:

>Who is responsible for Attrition - Bosses Or Company?<

Management.

Management either makes bad hiring decisions or tolerates bad hiring decisions.

Management gets the attrition it deserves.

Bob Gately, PE, MBA

Posted 8th August 2007 From United States, Chelsea
sumi71 
Hi Bob,

I agree with your point to certain extent. The bad hiring decisions also leads to attrition. The attrition is there among good competent people, just because of their bosses. The boss don't want his subordiante to be more knowledgeble than him. There comes bad hiring decision. Though the company hired a talented person, because of the attitude of the boss (here immediate reporting boss) he feel that he got humilated and starts looking for new job within short time.

Yes I agree the bad hiring, money, company and boss are all contributing for the attrition. But who / which is much contributing factor for attrition. I felt it is boss, then money, followed by bad hiring and ends with company.

Regards,

Umesh.S.
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
Hi All,

Is it fair to blame the boss for attrition? May or may not be. I think to a great extent the responsibility lies on the HR for the following reasons.

1. While hiring a prospect we present ourselves as too employee friendly, too caring and very open. In reality most of the time we do not address or give satisfactory response to the employee once he is on the job. If time permits please go through an article on psychological contract that I have posted some time back in the same forum.

2. HR is responsible for creating a culture which people should enjoy being in.

3. I understand almost all organizations conduct exit interviews, why is then this boss problem never reflected there. If at all it is reflected why no action is taken such bosses.

4. We are to some extent responsible for cultivating unethical practices in the organizations, when we have an urgent opening we are ready to compensate for the short fall in the notice of the prospect asking him/ her to join as of yesterday. We do not that time realise that the same person may leave us with no notice served. (common practice in IT & ITES)

Apart from the above other major reasons for which people leave are

1. Peer pressure; your friend got a job at a 20% increase in another company for doing the same job will surely push you to do the same.

2. Friend following; this is true for most of the sectors and not limited to levels

"Mumbai, Jul 19 In a major development, the board of ICICI Prudential Asset Management Company has shot off a letter to the Securities & Exchange Board of India (Sebi) accusing the company’s outgoing managing director and CEO Pankaj Razdan of conduct unbecoming of a senior director and violating the fit and proper norms governing mutual funds. The AMC has alleged that Razdan, even while he was functioning as MD & CEO, had made attempts to lure his staff to join a rival organization. "

3. Overriding personal needs.

I am simply trying to say that it is a joint responsibility, burden of which cannot be passed on to the BOSS only.

These are my thoughts and are not binding on anyone.

Best regards,

Sunil Joshi
Manager - Human Resources
Posted 9th August 2007 From United States, Bedford
Hi All,

I would like to add some more points in this discussion forum stating that HR alone is not responsible / blamed for attrition

1. In an exit interview - when it comes to an oral friendly discussion they say the truth that it is because of their bosses. Once if they are asked to give in written they never do so. Most of them state it is for their better prospects.

This is mainly because when the employer asks for a reference check they have to give their bosses name.

2. From the employers point of view Head hunting of senior management is becoming difficult now a days. Hence no action taken against the bosses

Hope you all agree.

Regards

Bharathi
Posted 9th August 2007
hr_ar 
Good afternoon All

I appreciate your view points, i would also like to share my viewpoint. I feel in most of the cases it is dependent on the situation, sometimes may be the boss is responsible or sometimes it the company. I have seen certain cases where everything is fine but employee wants to leave only for higher salary. So difficult to comment who is responsible, then whodo u blame????

Regards
ar
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Delhi
K.Ravi 
People Leave Bosses Not Company

THAT IS THE TRUTH



I understand almost all organizations conduct exit interviews, why is then this boss problem never reflected there. If at all it is reflected why no action is taken such bosses.

MOST OF THE TIME THE BOSS CONDUCTS THE EXIT INTERVIEW<,, SO WHY WUD AN EMPLOYEE LIKE TO TELL THE REAL TRUTH,, ANYWAYS HE GOT RELEASED FROM THE JAIL<<< THEN WHY WOULD HE BLAME THE POLICE?????



FORGET COMPANY< BOSS,,, the major thing is the PERSON,

HOW GOOD IS YOUR BOSS as a human being,, HOW DOES HE MOTIVATE OR DEMOTIVATE YOU,, till now I have worked in two firms, both bosses were good ,good means not bad, and like our growth and cooperative, but for one boss because of his leadership skills , and way of working things I have great respect for him, such respect that any work which he tells would not at all be viewed as time consuming or even if i need to wait after office hrs,, i myself know that its necessary, , but in another firm when my other boss used to give me work to do and it required staying after office hours I always had a feeling that this person deliberately loiters all day and at the end of the day starts to work,,, DONT KNOW WHY THIS THINKING ON MY TWO BOSSES<,,

BUT A BOSS AS A PERSON SHOULD BE A LEADER<< A MOTIVATOR>>>
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Pune
sumi71 
Hi Ar,

I agree with you the other things also influence the attrition. The order of most influential factors in order of priority is like this. 1. Boss, 2. Career, 3. Money, 4. HR, 5. Company.

HR also plays a role in attrition. But as one of the friend said HR alone to be blamed, I don’t agree with that. Because the selection of the candidates are being done by the operational heads and only for salary negotiation and to fulfill some HR formalities the candidates are being sent to HR at the end.

But in those days the complete recruitment was handled by HR alone, and they were able to get a right candidate for the organization. If you could compare the attrition in the past and present the rate is high in current scenario. In past (10 years back) you could see the people working at least 5 years in one company, later it was reduced to 3 years and now it is 3 months. This is because as Mr. Bob mentioned correctly in this post, the bad hiring decision, which is being handled mainly by the operational heads and not by HR.

Though HR is pointing out to the operational heads about the candidate’s suitability, they don’t give importance. Finally we end up in wrong hiring.

In the past the operational heads use to interview only about the technical skills, and say ok for the candidate, but when the HR says ‘NO’ for that candidate they use accept and look for some other candidate. Because HR person can judge an individual wheather he is suitable or not.

Here I would like to give one example. One of my friend, who is working in a company, was never thought of leaving till he completed his 1 year of service. Because he was appreciated and given encouragement for his work done, though his salary was less. After 1 year his boss was changed. The new boss use to blame him and humiliating him for every work he do, and at the same time he has been given good hike in the salary also in the last review. In this case who is to be blamed? Boss, HR, Career, Money or the Company?

Some people are asking if boss is responsible then why there is no action against such bosses? As few people pointed out rightly, they people won't give it in writing fearing their future. Without any proof no action can be taken. Second reason is "BOSS IS ALWAYS RIGHT"

Regards,

Umesh.S.
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
hi all,

i agree to the point that employees leave the organization because of their bosses and not for money .

other factor is also the growth of each employee in that particular organization in the corporate ladder after serving a said position for a long time .

As we all know growth has to normal to satisfy one individual need.

regards,

runu gorai
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Pune
Hello Umesh.S.:

>I agree with your point to certain extent.<

Thanks and perhaps we agree more than you think.

>The bad hiring decisions also leads to attrition.<

Bad hiring decisions are the cause of new hires leaving.

>The attrition is there among good competent people, just because of their bosses.<

Those bosses are in their jobs because of bad hiring or selection decisions by managers.

High attrition rates reflect very poorly on management not on the employees who quit or get fired.


>The boss don't want his subordiante to be more knowledgeble than him. There comes bad hiring decision.<

I agree, but how do such incompetent bosses get to be bosses? They are hired, i.e., bad hiring decisions.

>Though the company hired a talented person, because of the attitude of the boss (here immediate reporting boss) he feel that he got humilated and starts looking for new job within short time.<

We disagree on the definition of talent. In my business a talented new hire does not quit or get fired and does become a successful employee. In other words they work well with the boss.

>Yes I agree the bad hiring, money, company and boss are all contributing for the attrition. But who / which is much contributing factor for attrition. I felt it is boss, then money, followed by bad hiring and ends with company.<

It is still management since management controls all the items you listed. Fix what management does and how they do it and the problems go away.

Bob Gately, PE, MBA



Posted 9th August 2007 From United States, Chelsea
Aru 
Hi Umesh,

I do agree with your statement that people leave the bosses not the company. Even in my company also the same reason they will give wen i conduct exit interview. They are happy with all the departments but they cant tolerate for his/her boss, bcoz they show so much bossim nature. I do agree that he has to manage a team but he should also say it in a polite way to get the things done. If he/she behaves like friendly manner then the problem will be less.

Wat bob says is also right. Bosses dont want their subordinates to be more knowledgeable. This is main reason so he recruit to his average. He wont give a chance to grow up in his level. So wat ever boss says is a right, that subordiantes has to agree whether right or wrong. He should give a chance to the subordiantes to take up his/her own decisions on particular things or he/she should welcome the suggestions.

First thing would be the boss den automatically you will frustrated or start thinkin all money company and all. These frustrations only start thinks all changes in the job.

But now the present situations also very bad. If something goes wrong in your routines or your work or if your boss advice or says wat evr you have done is wrong or to you have to still improve leads to change the company. For simple things also you wil get frustrate that you should get rid of evrything. The human nature only has become like that in the present situations. This leads to lack of patience.

Regards,
harini
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
Hi,

We cannot really generalise on just boss or company. There are lot of reasons for a person leaving the organization.

Some of them are
-Company culture & ethos
-Boss
-Company practices which conflict with employees' beliefs
-Salary
-Mis match of employee skills with job requirements
-Rewards & recognition policy
etc etc etc....

All these can be found out during exit interview of the employee


Cheers,
Sowjanya
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
In my view you can’t take one of the option as a reason, its both, the ratio could vary with Comapny but there can’t be one reson to every problem. regards, Poonam
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Delhi
Hi, I really agree to this fact, i joined this industry before three months itself but oh god cannot explain the jealously between the people.........
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Mumbai
sumi71 
Hi All,

I agree so many factors are influencing the attrition. But which factor is nore influential. Here is the link which gives the facts about Bad hiring decisions as mentioned by Mr.Bob.


http://www.therainmakergroupinc.com/add.asp?ID=81

Some more examples:

"Survey takers left companies on bad terms due to disagreements with management (73%), disagreements with co-workers (12%) or to start employment with a new company immediately (14%). The majority of respondents left companies specifically due to a disagreement with management over pay, responsibilities and personal issues. A miffed respondent said, “Owners of the company were liars, cheaters, and didn’t treat their employee’s well.” One respondent felt duped by a company owner, “Owner of consulting company decided he would pay me when he wanted and would not reimburse me for travel costs”. Another survey taker felt uncomfortable with responsibilities, “My manager wanted me to do something that violated FDA regulations, and then he got HR to begin disciplinary steps because I was disobedient." Disrespect occurred with one respondent’s experience, “My managers would not refer to me by name and also wanted me to do something unethical in order to have an employee terminated to fulfill her personal vendetta "

Just find out who are most influential for attrition.

Regards,

Umesh.S.
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
kriyaz 
Interesting Subject : -

Some practical inputs from my side :

- Where people are treated like money minting robots, then money becomes top priority for them and wherever they get more money elsewhere they leave - because there is no personal bonding between the boss and the employees.

-Bosses have an added responsibility of handling pressure. A lot of Bosses can't handle pressure so they transmit equal or greater amount of pressure on subordinates - even when not required. This creates a very negative work environment.

- If bosses are abusive or rude - then employees will definitely leave.

SOLUTION

- A boss has to to behave sometimes like a father - sometimes mother - sometimes elder brother - Rather someone whom an employees looks up to as a leader.

- So despite all the pulls and pressures, despite all the madness about money and gadgets etc, People have to be treated like Individuals, should be Respected- ONLY THEN CAN THEY BE RETAINED.

- So the Bottom line is- that Yes - Bosses are a major cause for people leaving, but the company can't be totally absolved of the responsibility since many a times PEOPLE ARE ONLY AS GOOD OR AS BAD AS BAD AS THE ENVIRONMENT THEY ARE LIVING IN.

Riyaz
Posted 9th August 2007 From India, Delhi
Hello Riyaz:

>Interesting Subject<

I agree.

>- Where people are treated like money minting robots, then money becomes top priority for them and wherever they get more money elsewhere they leave - because there is no personal bonding between the boss and the employees.<

Excellent observation which is missed by managers who use money as both a carrot and a stick.

>-Bosses have an added responsibility of handling pressure. A lot of Bosses can't handle pressure so they transmit equal or greater amount of pressure on subordinates - even when not required. This creates a very negative work environment.<

Another insightful observation but why do hiring managers hire or promote someone who can not handle the pressure? In my opinion that is a management problem--hiring the wrong person.

>- If bosses are abusive or rude - then employees will definitely leave.<

Another good point. Why do you think employers don't replace such bad bosses?

>- So the Bottom line is- that Yes - Bosses are a major cause for people leaving, but the company can't be totally absolved of the responsibility since many a times PEOPLE ARE ONLY AS GOOD OR AS BAD AS BAD AS THE ENVIRONMENT THEY ARE LIVING IN.<

Who is responsible for correcting the bad behaviors of employees who are bosses? Isn't management responsible for fixing the problems created by employees?

Thanks for an excellent message.

Bob Gately, PE, MBA

Posted 9th August 2007 From United States, Chelsea
Hi All,

The discussion does seem endless. I would just like to add below.
We are discussing that people leave because of higher salaries/ bosses/ organisation policies etc.

What we need to crack down is the threshold point where an employee starts looking elsewhere. WHAT HAS IGNITED THE THOUGHT TO QUIT?? I have seen some guys who don't update their resumes for agesAs per surveys already conducted higher salary is 6th on the list, the top being of course Bosses.

Regs
Sandy
Posted 10th August 2007
Hi All,

To add further,

Can anybody get attrition data on major companies in India. If possible also some insights on their Organisational Health Surveys. May be we can start our analysis from there.

Regs
Sandy
Posted 10th August 2007
sumi71 
Hi Sandeep, Your thought is good. If we could get some data about attrition on major companies in India, we can analyse, what could be wrong. Regards, Umesh.S.
Posted 10th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
Hi All,

I would say Boss is reponsible for the Attrition. Company's policies are driven by bosses. If one say that a particular company is bad it means company's management is bad.

Boss should be of friendly nature and should give respect to each and every employee irrespective of the position of the person. Every one deserves love and affection. But it does not mean that boss should not keep a distance between him and employees. There should be a balance and balanced behavior is really productive for the company.

Thanks,

Rajesh Chhikara
Manager-HR
EarlySail Software Pvt Ltd.



Posted 10th August 2007 From India, New Delhi
browny 
hi all.

I read the above views and completely agree with the current scenario that people are leaving bosses not company.. because its the people who made the organization good or bad, its the responsibilty of HR to cultivate such a good and friendly culture in the organization that people dont leave.. HR is a bridge between Employees and the senior management
if they will not take this seriously (which is followed in many organizations)
organization will not prosper.

Its really a serious issue which is responsible for attrition.. :(
Posted 10th August 2007 From India, Madras
Gud morning to all

As far as attrition rate is concern, we cannot blame the mangement, mangers or hr departement alone.
In my opnion every level of management plays a vital role.
Duty of the hr department is to recruit the right people and deploy them at the right place and then its the responsiblity of the manager to uitilze the talent and give him enough room to prove it, keeping in mind the basic physchological factors of human being.

thanks
Regards
Devina Chugh
Asst. Manager HR
Posted 10th August 2007 From India, Pune
Hi Summi,

I am fully agree that People Leave Bosses Not Company. Most of Bosses always try to protect only their own interest. They are not bothred about the interest of their subordinates. They are always ready to grabe the success and achievemnts of subordinate. They are making victim to subordinates for their own failure.

Manoj Verma
Posted 10th August 2007 From India, Delhi
Good Morning,
I appreciate all of you for your view points, i would also like to share my experience about this topic in our organization every month we have attrition. When i conduct exit interviews for these employees they say that they were unhappy with their managers behavior most of these employees leave because of autorcratic attitude of their managers, no freedom in workplace, micro monitored about their job and also no motivation from their managers. When employees do good job they are appreciated when they do bad job ? they are not guided properly by their managers, instead they are punished verbally in front of other employees or team members.
Managers should control his/her emotions when something goes wrong from the team members always we need to remember that we are not 100% perfect in everything.

Regards,
Raj
Posted 10th August 2007 From India
Hi Guyz

Who is responsible.....Boss /HR/Company as a whole

Hey Guys,,,,
as Per my Knowledge,,all the above u said are minorly involve,,whether it be ur Boss,ur HR,May be hiring is not done proerly or any other minor issue....
But the Major reason which I can seee today is the growing competition,,,,Or u can say Head Hunting
Many of ur Being an HR must have definately put up our cv's on naukri or ne other portal,,,,,so nice calls are recieved ,,,WoW such a nice Package,,,,,K I am ready to Join u,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Well wat will u say then???????
Employees are always hunting for job nw a days,,, THERE IS NO SOLUTION TO THIS,,,Attrition will increase day by Day,,,,,Many a times Employees are retained just giving them the salary hikes
CORRECT ME IF NE ONE NOT iN MY FAVOUR

MOST OF THE TIME during Exit interview,,,Reason of Leaving is,,,,,,,,,,,,,BETTER OPPORTUNITY
Regards
Megha
Posted 10th August 2007 From India, Calcutta
sumi71 
Hi Megha

As you mentioned, the employees use to say that they are leaving for better oppurtunity. That is just a reason given by all, but actually the reason is something else. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the topic was initiated based on the survey conducted. Here given below again the link and some of the excerpts of the survey for your info.

http://www.therainmakergroupinc.com/add.asp?ID=81

Some more examples:

"Survey takers left companies on bad terms due to disagreements with management (73%), disagreements with co-workers (12%) or to start employment with a new company immediately (14%). The majority of respondents left companies specifically due to a disagreement with management over pay, responsibilities and personal issues. A miffed respondent said, “Owners of the company were liars, cheaters, and didn’t treat their employee’s well.” One respondent felt duped by a company owner, “Owner of consulting company decided he would pay me when he wanted and would not reimburse me for travel costs”. Another survey taker felt uncomfortable with responsibilities, “My manager wanted me to do something that violated FDA regulations, and then he got HR to begin disciplinary steps because I was disobedient." Disrespect occurred with one respondent’s experience, “My managers would not refer to me by name and also wanted me to do something unethical in order to have an employee terminated to fulfill her personal vendetta "

Also I will upload a pdf file about this survey shortly.


Regards,

Umesh.S.
Posted 10th August 2007 From India, Bangalore
@ Umesh and BOB

Every one do agree to an extend ....People do leave Boss not company...

In our Forum lots of Sr members are there....would like know whether they[Boss] been put through Assesment Centres before Promoting them...

Have they been Given Training [Soft skills]

Have they been Put through Psychometric tests....
Posted 10th August 2007 From India




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